Sinkholes, the punched through kind

[Kerrigan]

captivating!! very unusual! I would be creeped out having that under my bed!

[Lancelot]

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)

Posted by Lancelot (here)
I would have to say that IMO the second picture looks incredibly fake for a number of reasons.
1- The hole is perfectly cut through the tiles
2- The floor is laid directly onto the sub floor of solid stone/ bricks complete with mortar- similar to a well
3- Its far too similar to the film/series The Prisoner!
Don't focus on the Implanted bulls**t - accentuate the positive

See from the top of the merged threads...

... the "loud Boom" wasn't photoshopped, the ground is volcanic +/_ landfill and the tiles directly laid on it. I don't think that even the most crooked of floor tilers would lay tiles directly on top of a well.

The point of the starting thread is that the tiles were neatly cut and didn't fall off like tiles would do in a hole. The hole was somehow "punched" through but the bed was left intact... until the hole was discovered underneath it.

Any rational explanation(s)?

Here are 2 rational explanations for the second picture-
- It is a photoshop job.
-The floor was laid on top of an old well and a hole cut through the tiles to reveal a circular brick wall underneath.
The fact that the tiles were 'punched' through isn't evidence of it being genuine- ever tried to break a tile in a perfect curve? this is only possible by a cutting machine. There is no evidence of the loud boom apart from what the lady tells us.
What is interesting is that no other news agencies covered the story?? Don't believe everything you see on CNN!

[Amzer Zo]

Posted by Lancelot (here)
[...]
... ever tried to break a tile in a perfect curve? this is only possible by a cutting machine.

Exactly!

There is no evidence of the loud boom apart from what the lady tells us.

Except the rest of the community out on the street looking for the origin of the explosion.

What is interesting is that no other news agencies covered the story?? Don't believe everything you see on CNN!

The CNN references an initial Agence France-Presse report. However, agreed on most of CNN reportings.

Besides, I don't see any evidence of Photoshop, where are yours?

Here is a better shot at that "Brick-wall" layer underlying the town. That's a mighty big well every construction worker ignored!

[Lost Soul]

I still think the Lemurians are coming up for Round II. Before they were driven underground by the Atlanteans, they had technology far in advance of what we have today.

[Amzer Zo]

Posted by Lost Soul (here)
I still think the Lemurians are coming up for Round II. Before they were driven underground by the Atlanteans, they had technology far in advance of what we have today.

All right, if that were the case, I fail to follow the Lemurians' logic of using their super advanced technology to poke holes of different size randomly; why not beam themselves up directly...?

I must admit that the safest place to come out of would be from under grandma's bed... but not from right out of the town center...

[Lancelot]

Now that is a sinkhole!
Clearly visibly rock strata- most likely caused by no proper under-tarmac drainage- the water has to go somewhere and it is always down- in a circular motion.

I do however have my doubts about the under the bed sinkhole mainly due to the 9 clearly visible brick courses with mortar in between forming the hole. I see this in my job and a know a brick wall when I see one.

I generally don't trust Agence France-Presse reports as they do tend to come out with a lot of disinformation never substantiated with anything more than a photo and a dubious eyewitness report which gets sold to a single broadcaster who covers the story and cites them as the source.

But I may be wrong - perhaps there is something more sinister going on here?

[Amzer Zo]

Posted by Lancelot (here)
[...]
I do however have my doubts about the under the bed sinkhole mainly due to the 9 clearly visible brick courses with mortar in between forming the hole. I see this in my job and a know a brick wall when I see one.

Fair.

Here are closer pics of that "Brick layering":

Same Guatemala City, 2007 hole...

Now, for the 2010 hole, same city:

The red-orangey "Bick wall" is a volcanic layer of uneven thickness underlying the entire city.

If not, then I'd to say that the city's ancestors were very mighty well-builders! Not the least afraid of digging mighty wells.

[Amzer Zo]

Errr... more oh these holes in the neighborhood...

Deep Sinkhole Found under Woman's Bed in Guatemala City (PHOTOS)
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/184473/20110721/sinkhole-guatemala-city-under-bed-photos-elderly-woman.htm

Jul 21, 2011 11:25 AM EDT
On Monday, a 65-year-old woman in Guatemala City was shocked by a loud boom, which she assumed was the explosion of a neighbor's gas canister. She was even more surprised to find that it was a 40 feet deep, 32 inch wide sinkhole that had formed beneath her bed.
It's the kind of stuff you find in scary movies, but never think could actually happen in your own home. As a kid, you're told "don't look under the bed," but you'd never expect to find a giant chasm in the earth.
Sinkholes are actually more common than you may think, particularly in Guatemala City. The area is prone to these gaping holes because it is built on volcanic deposits and has a heavy annual rainfall. The people of Guatemala City are increasingly unable to trust what's beneath their feet.
A giant sinkhole that formed nearby in 2007 was 150m deep and swallowed several homes and a truck, killing three people. Local residents were forced to evacuate for days.
A 2010 sinkhole also in the same area measuring 20m wide and about 30m deep swallowed a three-story building and a nearby house.
Sinkholes can form gradually, but are often sudden and unexpected.

A sinkhole is seen developing inside a property that houses ten families in Guatemala City June 18, 2010. The hole, which is currently two meters wide and four meters deep, is caused by a failing drainage system that has produced two other, much bigger sinkholes.
Source: REUTERS / Daniel Leclair

[Amzer Zo]

A final argument against the well made of layers of red bricks right underneath the floor tiles is simply that there's no clay around to manufacture the necessary Terra-cotta; only volcanic material that hasn't yet altered into clay.

I f one takes a good look at the city constructions, most of them are made of concrete/cement blocks.

[Amzer Zo]

Well, well, well... (pun intended)

When I started this thread, I had no idea if there were even a possible, plausible explanation for such a punch-through hole as in the bedroom; especially with an accompanying loud boom.

I started by asking what could make such a loud noise that wasn't a chemical/fuel explosion and thought "well, thunder does that by creating a sudden vacuum and closing/filling of it."

So, the gears were cranking at the back of my mind around that idea ever since I called for any rational explanations.

Then, yesterday I recalled my early chemistry workshops of last century and that quite strong vacuum created out of a water tap... vacuum... running water... what if it were an implosion?

What if instead of popping a cork, the cork was sucked in... same sound from differential pressure!

I looked at the schematics of this simplest of vacuum pump (aspirator):

Looked at more pictures of these sinkholes and found these ones:

... and the geometry fits!

For whatever reasons, the flow of water at the bottom of the pit created the necessary ventury effect and sucked in the "cork."

That's the tiled floor in the case of the bedroom hole.

CQFD!

The conclusion is that there is an underground river flowing underneath Guatemala City which gets pretty strong after heavy rains, strong enough to literally suck-in the ground above.

In my younger years I would have written a paper on this but now... I'll leave it to yung'uns to pick up on this.

[Ammit]

If these are indeed natural sink holes then why are they all round?.

My thoughts are, if these were here long before any towns, houses or roads were built over the top of them, then why are they showing themselves now?

If they are caused by some sort of beam technology then why test it in a busy area, there are plenty of open areas where this type of research could be carried out virtually unnoticed?

If it was something coming up from the depths then surely there would be debris lying around the surface. If something under my house was hollow and caved in, I would not expect to see an almost perfect round hole, i would expect to see jagged edges where the ground broke.

IMHO, these were either here long ago or been created from something above.

Ammit

[Amzer Zo]

Posted by Ammit (here)
If these are indeed natural sink holes then why are they all round?.

My thoughts are, if these were here long before any towns, houses or roads were built over the top of them, then why are they showing themselves now?

If they are caused by some sort of beam technology then why test it in a busy area, there are plenty of open areas where this type of research could be carried out virtually unnoticed?


IMHO, these were either here long ago or been created from something above.

Ammit

Very interesting question.

My take on it is that whether air or water, any flow of such creates eddies. That is, circular whirls.

When water drains with a certain speed, it also whirls down, hence -- again -- circular motion and erosion.

A river flowing underground would speed up up the flow of water coming down from subsurface or surface through the ventury effect explained above.

My bet is that such round pits are sitting atop a natural ventury geometry created by a strong underground flow/river.

The beam technology is ruled out by bed plus rest of the house left intact.

If it was something coming up from the depths then surely there would be debris lying around the surface. If something under my house was hollow and caved in, I would not expect to see an almost perfect round hole, i would expect to see jagged edges where the ground broke.

That's the whole point why I started this thread: The tiles showing an almost perfect circular cut as if punched through which is quite a feat to perform even for a master tiler, as a poster here pointed out. Yet it's there and was associated with a loud noise.

[Amzer Zo]

Here's more data on the peculiar geologic environment of those holes:

Don't Call The Guatemala Sinkhole a Sinkhole

Analysis by Michael Reilly
Wed Jun 2, 2010 09:34 PM ET

The giant sinkhole that opened beneath downtown Guatemala City over the weekend is all the rage right now. There's just one problem: it isn't a sinkhole.

"Sure, it looks a lot like a sinkhole," geologist Sam Bonis told Discovery News from his home in Guatemala. "And a whale looks a lot like a fish, but calling it one would be very misleading."

Instead, Bonis prefers the term "piping feature" -- a decidedly less sexy label for the 100-foot deep, 66-foot wide circular chasm. But it's an important distinction, he maintains, because "sinkholes" refer to areas where bedrock is solid but has been eaten away by groundwater, forming a geological Swiss cheese whose contours are nearly impossible to predict.

The situation beneath the country's capital is far different, and more dangerous.

The lion's share of the city is built on pumice fill -- ash flows made up of loose, gravel-like particles deposited during ancient volcanic eruptions. In places, the debris is piled over 600 feet thick, filling up what would otherwise be a v-shaped valley of faulted bedrock. For those peering into the deep dark depths wondering what might be at the bottom, it's either more pumice fill or bedrock. Mixed with a healthy dose of wreckage from the swallowed-up clothing factory.

In 2007, a similar hole opened after a sewage pipe broke pipe just a few blocks from this weekend's disaster. Bonis was part of a team of geologists and engineers brought in to investigate and advise officials on what went wrong.

"Our recommendation was that this could happen again," he recalled. "When you have water flowing from storm water runoff, a sewage pipe, or any kind of strong flow, it eats away at the loose material. We don't know how long it has to go on before it collapses. But once it starts collapsing, God help us."

The Guatemala City metro area is home to nearly 3 million people. Not all of them live on the fill -- Bonis estimates around 1-1.5 million, with the rest perched on the valley walls -- but by mislabeling the feature a sinkhole, it distracts from a dangerous situation that could be mitigated, if not neutralized, by better handling of the city's runoff and waste water.

"I'd hate to have to be in the government right now," Bonis, who worked for the Guatemalan government's Instituto Geografico Nacional for sixteen years, said. "There is an excellent potential for this to happen again. It could happen almost anywhere in the city."
Image: Guatemalan government; Wikimedia Commons

[Amzer Zo]

More infos:

http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/money_politics_law/punching_a_hole_in_the_earth.htm
A 330-foot-deep sinkhole opened up before dawn, […] Officials blamed recent rains and an underground sewage flow from a ruptured main for the tragedy. The pit stank, growled and shook the surrounding ground. Water could be heard in the depths. Authorities fear it could widen or other sinkholes open up.

Sources: jwz.livejournal.com 24 February 2007, shortarmguy.com
Residents had heard noises and felt vibrations for weeks.
Since this happened twice in three years, there's a greater risk that it could happen again. Geologist Sam Bonis, who worked in Guatemala's geographical institute for 16 years, claims that it may happen anywhere in the city. The Guatemala sinkholes of 2007 and 2010 caused some buildings to fall down, but relatively few people were hurt. However, that may just make it a matter of time before it happens in an area with more people.

[Ammit]

Ok, I think its pretty obvious that I dont quite follow sink holes or punch holes, but what about Portals????

[Amzer Zo]

Posted by Ammit (here)
Ok, I think its pretty obvious that I dont quite follow sink holes or punch holes, but what about Portals????

Well, in that case I would concede these holes are pretty good portals for rain and running waters... but quite deadly for humans. Uncertain about any other kind of life forms

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Ammit (here)
If these are indeed natural sink holes then why are they all round?.

My thoughts are, if these were here long before any towns, houses or roads were built over the top of them, then why are they showing themselves now?

If they are caused by some sort of beam technology then why test it in a busy area, there are plenty of open areas where this type of research could be carried out virtually unnoticed?

If it was something coming up from the depths then surely there would be debris lying around the surface. If something under my house was hollow and caved in, I would not expect to see an almost perfect round hole, i would expect to see jagged edges where the ground broke.

IMHO, these were either here long ago or been created from something above.

Ammit

It seems to me these holes existed at one point but were filled, then sucked out from underneath as Amzer opinted out. This would easily explain the geometry. If true the question remains, who originally made these holes and why?

[Amzer Zo]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
It seems to me these holes existed at one point but were filled, then sucked out from underneath as Amzer opinted out. This would easily explain the geometry. If true the question remains, who originally made these holes and why?

Nicely worded, DeDukshyn!

I presently don't have any data that could prove or disprove such assumption. Just my opinion that pre-existing dug pits of such size in recent volcanic deposits are unlikely.

Other than that, your guess is as good as mine.

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
It seems to me these holes existed at one point but were filled, then sucked out from underneath as Amzer opinted out. This would easily explain the geometry. If true the question remains, who originally made these holes and why?

Nicely worded, DeDukshyn!

I presently don't have any data that could prove or disprove such assumption. Just my opinion that pre-existing dug pits of such size in recent volcanic deposits are unlikely.

Other than that, your guess is as good as mine.

After looking at the diagram you posted, occam's razor woulds have us potentially considering a giant underground pump or vacuum pump of sorts ... but that's not much to go on without some supporting evidence. The holes are too perfect to be just sucked down - there has to be a reason they are almost perfectly round ...

[Amzer Zo]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
[...]
After looking at the diagram you posted, occam's razor woulds have us potentially considering a giant underground pump or vacuum pump of sorts ... but that's not much to go on without some supporting evidence. The holes are too perfect to be just sucked down - there has to be a reason they are almost perfectly round ...

Indeed, there has to be a reason.

What I suggested:

My take on it is that whether air or water, any flow of such creates eddies. That is, circular whirls.

When water drains with a certain speed, it also whirls down, hence -- again -- circular motion and erosion.

A river flowing underground would speed up up the flow of water coming down from subsurface or surface through the ventury effect explained above.

My bet is that such round pits are sitting atop a natural ventury geometry created by a strong underground flow/river.

Ever seen these round, bowl-shaped cavities in boulders of mountain stream beds and others?

Running water does a fine job eddying away circular cavities in the hardest of materials, why not in loosely consolidated/lithified materials?

For what I know, these giant pits could have developed from natural cracks or from exploration drill holes abraded away via natural sandblasting effect of sand saturated water-eddies.

I am trying to get a webaddress to someone like Sam Bonis or the IGN to get some kind of verifications on this.