Dalai Lama is "personification of evil"

[Ravenlocke]

Pt 1 CIA & Tibetan Buddhism - & the propaganda war against China - Opperation: "Shadow Tibet Circus"

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=wU9FKVd-rv0

https://twitter.com/upholdreality/st...08825885396993

CIA’S SECRET WAR IN TIBET

In a top secret and still little-known, decade-long 'war at the top of the world,' the CIA fostered, trained and supplied a tenacious Tibetian resistance force in its struggle against the Communist Chinese.

https://www.historynet.com/cias-secret-war-in-tibet/

[Pam]

Posted by Delight (here)
The way that my post connects with the topic is the massive EVIL held in feudal systems. In fact I think from my research that the system that created feudalism was the same that we have now. It PRESUPPOSES a hierarchy of worth. Even if the Bon culture that became incorporated with Tibetan Buddhism was still strong in the villages, the feudal structure was imposed more and more. This is what has always been everywhere. The systems take over.

It is my opinion that all INVERSION of the good in social enterprise of all kinds is due to the presence of layers of castes. It is something embedded in the psyche.
We BELIEVE. There IS someone better and worse than I am in my position and the categories are determined by Birth in the system which I then may attempt to redeem (through my labor to the system) to "better" status. At the top is the BIG Lord. He is served by vassals who are smaller "princes" and they all have minions who live under the rule by right of one's place in existence. Of course this gets translated in multiple ways but it all boils down to same basic plan which is BELIEVED to be valid.

People say we must be the change we want to see. Honestly as much as I can, I attempt to change my mind. I know we must face what WE believe. How many believe in the necessity of a system?

If everyone is honest, I think we will find the threads of our unconscious scaffold OF the psyche. A pyramid shape which in some way we climb "higher" and depending on the rules, we can seem to rise in heights of power with all that goes with power. The power is granted by the Rung above ours, giving us some return on our labor.

I wonder about the bigger picture where a ruler plans his reincarnation and the ability to continue reigns of Headship through time. I do FEEL the extreme polarity between Good and Evil at play now. It looks to me that ALL the systems which are OF feudal overlords and serfs and slaves are run by demonic possessing spirits. We are at war wih principalities of EVIL which LIVE to funnel energy to the pyramid so it continues.

IMO we must become thoroughly disillusioned by all the world's presentations because the world of "cultures" is truly owned by the dark Lord. I will call it the devil which seeks at all times and places the very destruction of LIFE. Whoever this devil is, it actually lives THROUGH us as we support the systems...ALL of them.

This is very hard to face. Only God Creator can "save" the day. Because God Creator lives in us and has the power to destroy all our beliefs and false alliegence. IMO whatever else, the Dalai Lama is s big player and chief minion of the SYSTEM. He expects to use it to his advantage. The SYSTEM will always win in this world.

We MUST leave this plane of mind where deep down, we will pay tribute of some kind IN OUR OWN AWARENESS (where attention flows energy goes) to some other, believing his status is "Divine Right"... it is NOT. The God in us is waiting to flood us with power and yet, we believe in these systems. We think, lets just have some BETTER system.

This is hell. To be in heaven on earth, we MUST know in our own psyche that this "world" which is set against us is actually a frequency of consiousness. IMO we are here to change our minds and that this spiritual change is the only way we can win this war. The SYSTEM is our greatest enemy and would see us as slave.s forever

I had this awareness that the archons and those that serve the archons as well as the ones the archons are serving are operating with the same predator /prey dynamics that we are cursed with. I always assumed that collecting our loosh was closer to an indulgence than it was to a requirement. An indulgence being like a drug that gives you a desired high, or alcohol. Now, I believe they have to have it. I believe that due to whatever they have planned in their sadistic story, they will need a huge amount of energy and that is exactly what they are doing.

An example of this was the insane injection push. They drummed up so much fear and then through censorship and lies hid the outcomes to cause maximum damage and loosh production.They are still collecting from this as people suffer with lifetime illnesses and deaths causing trauma.They also created loosh by having those that refused lose their job, ousted by families ect. Now that the damage is done, they seem to be freely allowing the consequences to come out now.What happened to all the censorship? A whole new source of major loosh is provided to them by those scared and fearful that they will be the next to die.Then the there will be the despair as we watch the worst of them walk free, collecting their next billion dollars.

We can also add the ridiculous amounts of toxic emissions from buildings mysteriously blowing up, trains with toxins falling off tracks near water systems.Failing monetary systems. You name it, it's happening somewhere in the world. This is the grand finale and they need energy, they are also benefited by holding people in the frequency of fear.

I wonder if they, the archons, can store it? It would be interesting to know what the final events they have in mind is. If at all possible don't feed them with your fear, concern even unbalanced empathy. It is what they desperately want, don't give it to them. I know it is easier said than done. And never doubt. They are more than willing to personalize trauma, they can modify things to slam you with whatever it is you fear, dread, or don't want to happen.

I never trusted the Dalai Lama. First of all, if he is a celebrity type figure that is really all you need to know. I don't believe you get a pass to anything and everything here without being a part of this system. How gross, that he feels he can do that in public, and apparently he can. I bet that messed with that kids head. Did his programmed parents scold him later for not going along? This freak feels privileged enough to not even bother with the discreet stuff. What a messed up place this is. Maybe he will be on the next can of Bud light with his tongue sticking out.

[Dorjezigzag]

Throughout the years, I have defended the Dalai Lama, recognizing the intense opposition he faces from the CCP. However, the recent scandal, regardless of its innocence, has pushed beyond my personal boundaries. The Dalai Lama has breached the very principles he has ardently advocated for, and although I acknowledge his advanced age and potential adverse effects of the vaccine he took, his behavior appears erratic and resembling that of a relative suffering from dementia. Instead of embodying Avalokiteshvara, he resembles a Tibetan version of Joe Biden. If such conduct continues, it may be necessary to limit his public appearances significantly.

Heres is a part of an article on cases to consider when assessing this scandal.

In 2012, the head of the Karma Kagyu lineage, Ogyen Trinley Dorje, acknowledged that some monks within his administration had engaged in sexual misconduct, including with minors. Known as the Karmapa, he is one of the most important figures in Tibetan Buddhism, and Ogyen Trinley Dorje is seen as one of the most influential and charismatic of the Tibetan lamas.

The Karmapa’s acknowledgement of the misconduct came after rumours had circulated for several years that some members of his staff were involved in inappropriate sexual behaviour. The Karmapa issued a statement acknowledging that some of the monks in his administration had engaged in sexual misconduct and apologizing for the harm that had been caused.

The Karmapa also announced a number of measures aimed at addressing the problem of sexual misconduct within his administration, including the establishment of a new code of conduct for all staff members, the creation of an ethics committee to investigate complaints of misconduct, and the appointment of an independent investigator to look into the allegations of abuse.

more here.
https://www.bee3.org/?page_id=1411

[Ravenlocke]

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-arti...l-growing-big/


The Dalai Lama’s protégé Karmapa’s scandal growing big

Is the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley about to breakaway from the Tibetan leadership after two decades of endorsement and support from them? What did the Tibetan leadership do, that led to this turn of events?

The opinion piece below was sent to dorjeshugden.com for publication. We accept submissions from the public, please send in your articles to ds@dorjeshugden.com.

Generating big waves for the wrong reasons

Once again the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA; Tibetan leadership based in Dharamsala) and the Dalai Lama’s Karmapa Ogyen Trinley have made headlines, and not for positive reasons either as Ogyen Trinley finds himself the subject of a Taiwanese sex scandal.

2019 thus far has not been smooth-sailing for the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, as he continues to deal with the fall-out of his ongoing absence from India and his taking up of a Dominican passport. The latest scandal that bears his name is an eye-popping, albeit tabloid-like, exposé that has surfaced in Taiwan, a country where both Karmapas (the Dalai Lama-endorsed Karmapa Ogyen Trinley and the Karmapa Thaye Dorje) have a large following.

According to numerous reports, it now appears that the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley has had many girlfriends in the past, and is currently in pursuit of another. In the most recent case, the girl involved has come out to reveal that she has an ongoing relationship with the Karmapa from five years ago and that they have had sexual relations three times! There is even a recorded conversation, purportedly between Ogyen Trinley and the girl, that adds credibility to the story (see below) and photos of the so-called couple were included too, for good measure.

Having seen this scandalous report, one wonders if Ogyen Trinley’s video for the recent Kagyu Monlam was in anticipation of this scandal blowing up – he had in his video, out of the blue, touched on the topic of sexual relations, a strange topic indeed to bring up during the Karma Kagyus’ largest annual event. Observers have wondered if this was a pre-emptive attempt on his part, to try and open people to the idea that it would not be such a foreign thing for him to have a girlfriend.


The Karmapa was born amidst auspicious signs and has shown miracles. The Karmapa who has hundreds of thousands of followers, was exposed with a sex scandal. Audio shown: “Our relationship is a mixture of sour, sweet, bitter and spicy.”

Silence is not golden

While this scandal appears to have come out of nowhere, what continues to stun people is that there has not been thus far, any response from any party, be it the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley’s office, or parties with a vested interest in keeping Ogyen Trinley’s reputation pristine such as the Dalai Lama’s office (Kukey Yiktsang) and the CTA themselves.

Sex scandals have brought down entire empires and so it would be in the CTA’s best interests to strongly deny the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley’s involvement and dismiss the authenticity of the recorded call. After all, this scandal concerns the Karmapa candidate that they endorsed and wholeheartedly supported for over two decades, to the point whispers were heard about his possible assignation as the Dalai Lama’s successor. Even Tibetan state protector Nechung had given his endorsement of Ogyen Trinley as the right Karmapa candidate by taking trance and making offerings to him many times. So where is their defence of their candidate now?

Similarly, if the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley had absolutely no involvement in the scandal, and if the recorded call was faked, it would not be difficult and unusual for him or his office to issue a press release to that effect. The fact he remains silent has led observers to conclude that there may be an element of truth in the scandal.

Therefore a lack of response from the CTA, Dalai Lama’s office and Ogyen Trinley himself is bad public relations at best and, at worst, hurts Buddhism and creates a lot of doubt. In this scandal, it is clear that people’s true colors are showing – after all the schism they created in the Karma Kagyu lineage, the CTA are totally unconcerned about people’s faith in the Karma Kagyu lineage and the Karmapa, and that is why they remain silent on the matter.

A scandalous past

Some however, may not be too surprised about this latest expose as the Black Karmapa has previously experienced many scandals. For example:

He has been charged in India for money laundering, although there are rumors that the CTA coerced the Indian government into bringing these charges about because the Karmapa refused to cooperate with them. For the CTA to set the Indian government against people who have fallen out of favor is not unheard of – the CTA previously used this tactic against Serkong Tritul Rinpoche of Gaden Jangtse who, before he permanently moved to Taiwan, was arrested by the Indian government and held for four months. His only ‘crime’ was disobeying a CTA directive not to visit Taiwan, at a time when relations between the CTA and Taiwan were not friendly and had broken down.
He has always been suspected of being a Chinese spy, borne out of the fact that he is recognized by China as the rightful Karmapa and had escaped to India from China a bit too easily. This suspicion is furthered by the fact his official website is allowed in China while the Karmapa Thaye Dorje’s is not, as well as the fact millions of Chinese yuan were found in his possession when his Ladrang was raided by the Indian government in 2015.
He is said to have had many girlfriends in past. It has been claimed that this recent sexual transgression is not his first foray into relationships. In the phone call, the girl he is allegedly pursuing says that he has had many other girls.
He has also made a video where he confessed to being depressed and not having the freedom to pursue his own dreams – not the sort of thing a Karmapa usually confesses to. He also said that his education was lacking and he had not received an education typical of someone of his standing. Ordinarily, the Karmapa should have been educated by the four Karma Kagyu regents but due to the split created by the CTA, the four regents found themselves on opposing sides, each supporting different Karmapa candidates and not able to come together to educate just one. The implication is that the CTA is to be blamed for this.
He appears to have defected and run away from the CTA and Indian government and has been living in the United States for over a year, citing medical reasons. The question many have asked is what medical treatment a young, healthy person could be receiving when he has had no previous reports of ill health.
He secretly obtained a Dominica passport while living in the United States and surrendered his registration documents and yellow card issued by the Indian government to Tibetan refugees. He did so without so much as a ‘thank you’ to them. Interestingly, Dominica does not have an extradition treaty with India, therefore shielding him from extradition laws which might compel his return to India to face his many legal suits.
He has been engaged in a strange but obviously politically-charged to-and-fro between him and the Indian government when, with a Dominica passport, he was pressured to return to India to attend a Buddhist conference where he was to be one of the VIP attendees. This would have required a visa from the Indian authorities but to this day, there are contradicting accounts of why he did not get a visa in time to attend the conference. While Indian authorities say he did not apply for one, the Black Karmapa says he tried to apply but did not obtain one – apparently, the Indian consulate in New York had to check with Delhi. In still other media reports, it has been said that the Indian government will only allow him to enter India on the Tibetan refugee yellow card, a document which the Karmapa now refuses to use. The conference was eventually cancelled at the eleventh hour on the pretext that a Nyingma tradition leader had suddenly passed away and his funeral had to be attended to.
He claimed, in his Kagyu Monlam video, that he has not received full ordination vows and only has the novice monk vows. Whether it was a preemptive move to imply what he is doing with the girls is acceptable, is a moot point. Even if he has only novice ordination vows, one of the four root vows for a novice monk is to abstain from sexual relations with women. Breaking any of the four root vows means the person is immediately disrobed.
In the same Kagyu Monlam video, the Black Karmapa said that the novice monk vows had been given to him without his consent or awareness, and he had only been expecting the upasaka (laymen) vows from the Dalai Lama. Astute observers have surmised there can be only two things the Karmapa is trying to imply. The first is that the Tibetan leadership tried to dilute the Karma Kagyu lineage by introducing Gelug vows to their leader, since within the Karma Kagyu lineage there are many qualified preceptors from whom the Karmapa could (and should) have received the vows from. The second is that the Tibetan leadership were trying to control the Karma Kagyu lineage, by making their leader’s spiritual preceptor a Gelug lama and therefore someone he would be compelled to listen to.

Within the Karma Kagyu tradition responsibility to recognize the Karmapa lies with four regents. In recent times, three of these regents have recognized competing candidates, confusing followers all over the world. Orgyen Trinley Dorje (left) was recognized by Tai Situ Rinpoche; Trinley Thaye Dorje (middle) was recognized by Shamar Rinpoche; and Dawa Sangpo Dorje (right) was recognized by Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche. In-fighting between supporters of these candidates continues until today, a fact that has fractured the tradition deeply. Add to this the fact that the Dalai Lama interfered by backing Orgyen Trinley, a move with no traditional basis, the schism became a heated debate within the Tibetan community. In response, Shamar Rinpoche claimed that Orgyen Trinley’s recognition was incorrect, that he had evidence of this and that the Dalai Lama had no business in meddling in the affairs of the Kagyu lineage. Now Orgyen Trinley, who the Dalai Lama and the CTA nurtured for a decade has abandoned them and prefers to have freedom as a citizen of Dominica.
How did it come to this?

No matter how the situation is examined, things are not looking good for the CTA, the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. The Karmapa’s less-than-spectacular track record is turning into a bane, especially to the reputation of the Dalai Lama and his CTA government for it was the spiritually authoritative Dalai Lama who formally recognized the Black Karmapa, welcomed him on his arrival from China, and nurtured him in the Dalai Lama’s own Gelugpa Gyuto Monastery in Dharamsala.

Hence, if this latest in a litany of scandals turns out to be true, it will go down in history as a very shameful episode for the Dalai Lama who has apparently exercised bad judgement of character on multiple occasions. As it turns out, this Karmapa scandal is merely the tip of the iceberg as an increasing number of the CTA’s and the Dalai Lama’s monk friends are involved in sex scandals and have been accused of exploiting and abusing their positions. A shortlist of the more prominent offenders include names such as:

Sogyal Rinpoche;
Tenzin Dhonden, the Dalai Lama’s peace emissary in the United States;
Sakyong Mipham;
Gangten Tulku;
Lama Yeshe Nyingpo;
Lama Norlha;
Lama Choedak Rinpoche;
Rigdzin Namkha Rinpoche;
Lama Ogyen Kunzang Dorje;
Tulku Lobsang – yes, the list is long.
Even Lobsang Sangay who calls himself the President of the CTA, has also been called into question for his alleged multiple extramarital affairs with women like Dhardon Sharling, an investigation extensively covered by Tibetan author and journalist Mila Rangzen.

From the Karmapa all the way to Sogyal Rinpoche, and onwards to Lobsang Sangay, one thing all of these people have in common is the fact they were approved of and endorsed by the Dalai Lama. Lobsang Sangay’s candidacy for the position of Sikyong, for example, would surely have received the Dalai Lama’s approval before he was permitted to run.

That being the case, this latest Karmapa scandal is damaging for the Dalai Lama as people will think badly of his decisions. Many will also start to question his psychic abilities, asking if he is truly clairvoyant and how he did not know 20 years ago that all of this would transpire with the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley. This exposé of the Karmapa also comes at a time when the reputation of Tibetan Buddhism is on the decline, thanks to the actions of the aforementioned sexual abusers whose actions the Tibetan leadership have remained silent on and failed to condemn.

Let’s call a spade a spade

Whether the Karmapa, or any monk for that matter, has novice monk vows (getsul) or a fully-ordained Buddhist monk’s vows (gelong) is irrelevant when it comes to sexual relationships. Whether a monk is a getsul or gelong, they all have four root vows:

to abstain from lying about any realizations of emptiness;
to abstain from taking the life of a human;
to abstain from taking something which is not theirs;
to abstain from sexual relations.
These four root vows are the very basics of the Buddhist monk code (vinaya), the universally-held standard which makes a clear distinction if someone is a monk or not. Hence, someone holding any level of monk vows should not be having any sexual relations with women, period. Even if the Karmapa were not a monk, the fact that he is wearing robes means he should still represent the monkhood well. His actions reflect on all Tibetan monks and creates the wrong idea in people’s minds that Tibetan monks can have relationships with women.

For people to doubt Tibetan monks and question if they are real is highly damaging to the Buddha Dharma as a whole for a number of reasons:

Whether spiritual teachers are married or have relationships is the choice of the individual. However, if they dress like a monk and profess to be a monk, regardless of whatever level of vows they hold, they should act like a monk and not mislead the public. It diminishes the faith of the people in the sangha as a whole.
It is not fair to good monks who are celibate and keep their vows clean for a lifetime, to be put next to spiritual teachers like this and have both be treated the same. The same standard should be held for all who profess to be monks, regardless of whatever tradition or Buddhist country they are from.
Since the CTA professes to be a Buddhist government, Tibetan teachers should follow the example set by monks from all other Buddhist nations such as Sri Lanka, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Viet Nam and Burma where the public continue to have a very good opinion of their sangha.

In those predominantly Buddhist countries, if a monk has sexual relations with a woman, there are no exceptions whether they are high or low, senior or junior, scholar, royalty, eminent or not – they are immediately disrobed and no longer considered monks, according to the vinaya.

In fact, in those countries, never mind cohabiting with a woman, monks are not even allowed to touch or hold hands with a woman, so strict is their adherence to the vinaya code of conduct. This level of adherence protects the public from developing wrong view about the Buddha Dharma and encourages people to trust bona fide monks. Is it therefore any surprise that public opinion of the Tibetan monks is at an all-time low, when many lamas are abusing their students and the Karmapa is now embroiled in this Taiwanese sex scandal?

The question is where the CTA’s voice is in all of this. Since the CTA considers themselves a bastion of Buddhism, their Department of Religion’s silence over the sexual abuses of the aforementioned Tibetan Buddhist teachers, and the Karmapa’s sexual scandal is all the more shocking. After all, what else is the CTA’s Department of Religion responsible for if not to hold Tibetan teachers to the vinaya?

Time for Tibetan leadership to admit to their shortcomings

All these scandals do not bode well for the CTA and the Dalai Lama, who spend the majority of their time and effort vilifying the Chinese while neglecting their own polity. The CTA is so vocal in criticizing everything else but is silent as a mouse on this. They are outspoken against the Jonangpas, against Dorje Shugden practitioners, against China but they have yet to be heard in this.

It is high time that the Tibetan government in exile enforce these vinaya rules since they consider themselves a Buddhist majority “country”. The Dalai Lama too has the full authority, as well as spiritual and temporal power, to enforce these rules if he wishes to. But strangely, the Dalai Lama and his government stay silent while major damage is being done to the reputation of Tibetan Buddhist teachers specifically, and the Tibetan community in general. This is certainly not the best way to preserve and turn the wheel of Dharma.

It is important especially now for the Dalai Lama to tell us which Karmapa is real and which is not. Should the people continue to trust the CTA-endorsed Karmapa Ogyen Trinley who has been involved in scandal after scandal, leading up to this latest Taiwanese one? Or should the people switch their allegiance and support to the CTA-rejected Karmapa Thaye Dorje, who has thus far remained scandal-free? Did the CTA endorse the wrong candidate? Or is there something else that is going on, which the public have been kept in the dark about?

With so much preexisting confusion, all this new scandal is doing is adding to the steady decline in the people’s trust in both Tibetan Buddhism and the CTA. The message is clear – if the CTA wants to survive this latest scandal, then we, the people, will REALLY need to hear from both the CTA AND the Dalai Lama.


The rest here:

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-arti...l-growing-big/

¤=[Post Update]=¤

https://twitter.com/TenzinMa/status/1090319951737643009

[Seeclearly]

This is a brilliant piece about the Dalai Lama incident by Bernhard Guenther. He really does has a very solid take on it .The guy clearly knows what he is talking about. The evil at play here (because that is what it is ) ,is faced & expertly described i.m.o.

https://veilofreality.com/2023/04/14...nd-the-shadow/

[Icare]

Posted by Seeclearly (here)
This is a brilliant piece about the Dalai Lama incident by Bernhard Guenther. He really does has a very solid take on it .The guy clearly knows what he is talking about. The evil at play here (because that is what it is ) ,is faced & expertly described i.m.o.

https://veilofreality.com/2023/04/14...nd-the-shadow/

Thank you for that very interesting link, Seeclearly, it confirmed what I felt about the situation.

[s7e6e]

Making people worship "enlightened" public figures such as the pope or mother theresa or dalai lama has been a long standing demonic practice. No wonder they're pushing so hard to exterminate or enslave us, there's a mass awakening happening right now.

[shaberon]

I would like to partially disentangle this.


To remark on the current Karmapa:


Ogyen Trinley has been referred to as the 'Beijing Karmapa', due to the backing he receives from the government of the PRC. Trinley Thaye, meanwhile, is referred to as the 'Delhi Karmapa', due to his having the support of the government of India.


Traditionally, Shamar Rinpoche is much closer to the Karmapa, as was seen in this selection committee:


The 3rd Jamgon Kongtrul: lead regent, third-ranking spiritual leader
The 14th Kunzig Shamar Rinpoche: second-ranking spiritual leader
The 12th Tai Situpa: fourth-ranking spiritual leader
The 12th Goshir Gyaltsap Rinpoche: fifth-ranking spiritual leader

This regency was officially dissolved by 1984...



So the current decision is by PRC and a lesser member of this board.

Historically there is almost no reason for the Karmapa to care about a Dalai Lama. First of all, the Karmapa is the fist Tulku lineage of Tibet. As soon as this started--Kublai Khan ordered the Second Karmapa's arrest:


The legend tells that each attempt to capture, or even kill, the Karmapa was thwarted by the latter's miracles. At one point the Karmapa 'froze' a battalion of 37,000 soldiers on the spot, by using the power of mudra, yet all the time showing compassion. He eventually let himself be captured and put in exile, knowing that his miracles and compassion would eventually lead to Kublai Khan having a change of heart which did in fact happen.


Because the Gelug order was on the side of the Khan, that is how they took power in Tibet.

It was not exactly a good relationship.

The Kagyu lineages are older and more directly related to India. This did not make them very good at politics.


This is closer to reality from a 2018 joint statement of the "two Karmapas":



While we were together we also talked about ways that we could work to heal the divisions that have unfortunately developed within our precious Karma Kagyu lineage in recent years. We view it as our duty and responsibility to do whatever we can to bring the lineage together.

This undertaking is critically important for the future of the Karma Kagyu lineage as well as for the future of Tibetan Buddhism and the benefit of all sentient beings. We therefore ask everyone within the Karma Kagyu community to join us in our efforts to strengthen and preserve our lineage. We view it as our collective responsibility to restore harmony to our tradition which is a lineage of wisdom and compassion.



I am not sure how to express it other than those Tibetans who genuinely follow the Path feel terrible remorse about their representatives who fall into corruption. This is taken very seriously.

As to whether anyone really worships a public figure, I suppose some superstitious ones might, but it is not a big part of what goes on.

I don't see how anyone could simply accept a Chinese government installation of a Panchen or a Karmapa. This is statecraft; thank the Cold War.

[onawah]

My own experience with the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley was when he traveled to San Francisco back in the 70s to perform the Red Hat Ceremony.
I was not at the ceremony, but I was helping my friend Barbara Pettee behind the scenes ( a philanthropist who donated much time and energy to bringing Tibetan lamas to the US after the CCP invaded Tibet).
But from her home miles away in the suburbs of the city, I could feel the energy of the Karmapa quite tangibly, and it was impressive.

Posted by shaberon (here)
I would like to partially disentangle this.


To remark on the current Karmapa:


Ogyen Trinley has been referred to as the 'Beijing Karmapa', due to the backing he receives from the government of the PRC. Trinley Thaye, meanwhile, is referred to as the 'Delhi Karmapa', due to his having the support of the government of India.


Traditionally, Shamar Rinpoche is much closer to the Karmapa, as was seen in this selection committee:


The 3rd Jamgon Kongtrul: lead regent, third-ranking spiritual leader
The 14th Kunzig Shamar Rinpoche: second-ranking spiritual leader
The 12th Tai Situpa: fourth-ranking spiritual leader
The 12th Goshir Gyaltsap Rinpoche: fifth-ranking spiritual leader

This regency was officially dissolved by 1984...



So the current decision is by PRC and a lesser member of this board.

Historically there is almost no reason for the Karmapa to care about a Dalai Lama. First of all, the Karmapa is the fist Tulku lineage of Tibet. As soon as this started--Kublai Khan ordered the Second Karmapa's arrest:


The legend tells that each attempt to capture, or even kill, the Karmapa was thwarted by the latter's miracles. At one point the Karmapa 'froze' a battalion of 37,000 soldiers on the spot, by using the power of mudra, yet all the time showing compassion. He eventually let himself be captured and put in exile, knowing that his miracles and compassion would eventually lead to Kublai Khan having a change of heart which did in fact happen.


Because the Gelug order was on the side of the Khan, that is how they took power in Tibet.

It was not exactly a good relationship.

The Kagyu lineages are older and more directly related to India. This did not make them very good at politics.


This is closer to reality from a 2018 joint statement of the "two Karmapas":



While we were together we also talked about ways that we could work to heal the divisions that have unfortunately developed within our precious Karma Kagyu lineage in recent years. We view it as our duty and responsibility to do whatever we can to bring the lineage together.

This undertaking is critically important for the future of the Karma Kagyu lineage as well as for the future of Tibetan Buddhism and the benefit of all sentient beings. We therefore ask everyone within the Karma Kagyu community to join us in our efforts to strengthen and preserve our lineage. We view it as our collective responsibility to restore harmony to our tradition which is a lineage of wisdom and compassion.



I am not sure how to express it other than those Tibetans who genuinely follow the Path feel terrible remorse about their representatives who fall into corruption. This is taken very seriously.

As to whether anyone really worships a public figure, I suppose some superstitious ones might, but it is not a big part of what goes on.

I don't see how anyone could simply accept a Chinese government installation of a Panchen or a Karmapa. This is statecraft; thank the Cold War.

[Ravenlocke]

https://twitter.com/LoveFreeTibet/st...13607394549760

https://twitter.com/AlexandraM1llan/...74583115407360

https://twitter.com/karmapaorg/statu...59674044416000

[Ravenlocke]

https://twitter.com/TheWakeninq/stat...60751874252800

[shaberon]

Posted by onawah (here)
But from her home miles away in the suburbs of the city, I could feel the energy of the Karmapa quite tangibly, and it was impressive.

You mean H. H. the XVI:

Rangjung Rigpe Dorje (རང་འབྱུང་རིག་པའི་རྡོ་རྗེ་) (1924–1981)


What happened in the 70s is that there was a Kagyu organization called Vajradhatu which was interested in opening centers around the world. Thanks to the CIA and easy money, it became Shambhala, and there was the shameful story of Chogyal Trungpa Rinpoche. And so that was not even really Buddhism. He changed it. This was involved--I forget the name--place in Colorado where various cultures were being "corraled" in a sort of mass marketing effect so they would all be watered down and you had a "token" Buddhist, Navajo, and whoever else was being swirled together. It was something like an attempt to break down the work force. All these authentic spiritual guides would make the people follow like rats to the Pied Piper, and all the serious business would fall into more deserving hands.


As you follow along, you find H. H. Dalai Lama beginning in 1981 in Madison Wisconsin, to give Kalachakra initiation to the general public. I personally find this quite ridiculous and inappropriate. That is the first thing that made me reserve judgment, about him, on an intellectual basis. A few of his books are quite good but I think he mis-applied the opportunity of that groundbreaking tour.

[Ewan]

Posted by Ewan (here)
Well I can't speak for the Dalai but it is possible it is a cultural thing being seen through western eyes, and we've pretty much been programmed to view the world as a sick, corrupt place thanks to the dark hallways of our media moguls.

I remember seeing my wife's mother do this in Thailand with her grandson, (not my child, a cousin). I thought it very strange but I was clearly the only one who did. Fortunately I have a pretty good poker face and never caused a stir.

Speculating further there may even be a benefit to it from bacterial transfer to a developing immune system -and I'm not inventing excuses, just trying to look at it logically as to why it may have become a 'thing'. Isn't there an African culture that spits in the food being prepared for children? (Or did I just make that up?)

Link to a photo which I am not posting because it is over 4000 pixels wide. It only leads to the photo, nothing else. It confirms spitting in food being prepared, not African but indigenous Amazonian.

[Isserley]

Posted by Ewan (here)

Posted by Ewan (here)
Well I can't speak for the Dalai but it is possible it is a cultural thing being seen through western eyes, and we've pretty much been programmed to view the world as a sick, corrupt place thanks to the dark hallways of our media moguls.

I remember seeing my wife's mother do this in Thailand with her grandson, (not my child, a cousin). I thought it very strange but I was clearly the only one who did. Fortunately I have a pretty good poker face and never caused a stir.

Speculating further there may even be a benefit to it from bacterial transfer to a developing immune system -and I'm not inventing excuses, just trying to look at it logically as to why it may have become a 'thing'. Isn't there an African culture that spits in the food being prepared for children? (Or did I just make that up?)

Link to a photo which I am not posting because it is over 4000 pixels wide. It only leads to the photo, nothing else. It confirms spitting in food being prepared, not African but indigenous Amazonian.

Spitting in food in some indigenous Amazonian tribe and this act of the Dalai Lama have nothing to do with each other -- the Dalai Lama is a man who is (should be) very familiar with the established patterns of behavior in the civilized world and should know what is appropriate and what is not while people in distant tribes do not know it nor are they expected to know

[Ewan]

Posted by Isserley (here)

Spitting in food in some indigenous Amazonian tribe and this act of the Dalai Lama have nothing to do with each other -- the Dalai Lama is a man who is (should be) very familiar with the established patterns of behavior in the civilized world and should know what is appropriate and what is not while people in distant tribes do not know it nor are they expected to know

Well I disagree, my wife's mother is apparently as ignorant to established patterns of behaviour in the civilized world.

I think you are conflating western values, impinged upon, perhaps somewhat subconsciously, by the furor of 'cancel culture' and calling it civilized.

Thai culture, and Tibetan culture, are both civilized but they are not the same as their Western counterparts and therefore cannot be held to those same Western standards.

Just to be clear, I am not defending the Dalia Lama here, I am actually indifferent to him. I just don't think there is much of anything to this story, and was suggesting in my posts to view it from a broader perspective, paying particular attention to other customs that take place in Asian countries and that we in the West may frown upon at first glance.

Gini made a post here which I note received no thanks from you, perhaps your mind was already made up by this point.

You made a post here the opening line of which was He did aplogize for telling kid to "Suck my Tongue". I subsequently responded, in another thread, pointing out that the Dalia Lama would most certainly have a press office, people who handle communications on his behalf. Understandably you may not have seen that post. THEY are the ones who will know western values and be AWARE of the flurry of negative comments this incident provoked in the West. THEY are the ones that would instigate 'damage control' in an attempt to defuse the negative soundbytes.

Jaybee made a post here that I found to be very reasoned, I note you never thanked that post either.

It would not surprise me if I found out that the Dalai was utterly bewildered by the 'news' from his press people and has already long-forgotten it.