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Thread: A Spiritual war is going on.....

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    Greece Avalon Member Kiki's Avatar
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    Default A Spiritual war is going on.....

    Hello everyone,

    I'de like to know what your opinions are on this topic. I personally belive that we are Spirits that chose a body and live for ever. I hear that we must save our Spirits (Souls)! How can it be taken from us? And how do we save it?? How do we fight for it??

    Kiki

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    UK Avalon Member Star1111's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Spiritual war is going on.....

    Quote Posted by Kiki (here)
    Hello everyone,

    I'de like to know what your opinions are on this topic. I personally belive that we are Spirits that chose a body and live for ever. I hear that we must save our Spirits (Souls)! How can it be taken from us? And how do we save it?? How do we fight for it??

    Kiki
    Kiki

    I agree that we are souls who, in line with our Spirit Guide, choose the body we next want/need to reincarnate into in order to learn the lessons we need to and have not yet learned.
    Choosing the body we reincarnate into is part of the lesson(s) we need to learn
    We reincarnate over and over again until we learn the lessons we need to learn to achieve total enlightenment.
    IMO no-one can take our Souls from us as we are the soul, the Higher Self and all connected to The Divine/The Source.
    How do we save it? We don't need to "save it" we need to learn by understanding our lessons and liviing in LOVE, Peace and by giving of thyself. This, I believe, is the lesson we all ultimately have to learn and achieve total understanding of.
    Nothing else matters.
    How do we fight it? We don't fight it, we learn. We live in Harmony and LOVE always.
    IMO its as simple as that. NB: By simple I mean the concept not necessarily the practice of.
    There are others I'm sure who will have a different view, a more complex view, but for ME, this is what 'IT' is ALL about.

    I don't see it as a spiritual war, I see it as a gift, a lesson to be learned.
    LOVE to you
    Last edited by Star1111; 15th November 2011 at 09:24.
    "Thinking: The talking of the soul with itself” - Plato
    LOVE, LOVE, always LOVE

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    Greece Avalon Member Kiki's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Spiritual war is going on.....

    Thank you Star1111!

    Love is the answer to alot of things.... it comes easy to me and I wonder why it's seems to be so hard on other people.

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    Default Re: A Spiritual war is going on.....

    Quote Posted by Kiki (here)
    Hello everyone,

    I'de like to know what your opinions are on this topic. I personally belive that we are Spirits that chose a body and live for ever. I hear that we must save our Spirits (Souls)! How can it be taken from us? And how do we save it?? How do we fight for it??

    Kiki
    It is important to consider the source of ideas. Some have an agenda and others have been programmed by the people with the agenda. I opt for your first opinion that you hold personally. It is how I live my life.

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    Denmark Avalon Member Watching from Cyprus's Avatar
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    Default Re: A Spiritual war is going on.....

    Hi Kiki and All,

    I also tend to believe that process, but it does not make sense if you think about the babies born into certain death i.e Africa..... what is the learning point for the sole who choose to be born as such??? Simply does not make sense.

    May change to the good come to all who deserve it. Wish i was invisible and could assassinate the evil cabal with Fluoride darts one by one...
    Love Peter
    Short Term memory infected/defect. Watching, feeling and recording since i recall. Recording for some one/thing else !
    I care about the earth, and despise greed.

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    Default Re: A Spiritual war is going on.....

    Quote Posted by Kiki (here)
    Hello everyone,

    I'de like to know what your opinions are on this topic. I personally belive that we are Spirits that chose a body and live for ever. I hear that we must save our Spirits (Souls)! How can it be taken from us? And how do we save it?? How do we fight for it??

    Kiki
    The main thief of souls has a name: Ignorance.

    How can be taken? By your un-acknowledgment of its existence.
    How do we save it? By learning who and what you are.
    How do we fight for it? Knowledge.

    Stavros
    Truth will not set you free. Knowledge will...

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    Default Re: A Spiritual war is going on.....

    Quote Posted by Watching from Cyprus (here)
    Hi Kiki and All,

    I also tend to believe that process, but it does not make sense if you think about the babies born into certain death i.e Africa..... what is the learning point for the sole who choose to be born as such??? Simply does not make sense.

    May change to the good come to all who deserve it. Wish i was invisible and could assassinate the evil cabal with Fluoride darts one by one...
    Love Peter
    Thank you Peter ,

    The reson why it does make sense, for a soul to chose a baby's body who dies, it's probably because the soul had to live that experience as well...

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    Default Re: A Spiritual war is going on.....

    Quote Posted by Watching from Cyprus (here)
    Hi Kiki and All,

    I also tend to believe that process, but it does not make sense if you think about the babies born into certain death i.e Africa..... what is the learning point for the sole who choose to be born as such??? Simply does not make sense.

    May change to the good come to all who deserve it. Wish i was invisible and could assassinate the evil cabal with Fluoride darts one by one...
    Love Peter
    Our human finite and clouded inability to make sense of some of the very short and even horrific lives in places like Africa, for one, is a shortcoming, I believe. Our lack of understanding the process is part of the learning.

    I do not struggle with these facts. I do understand them, but attempting to work through the emotional layering associated with a subject like this makes it a task I will pass on. As stated earlier in this post, it is something that comes to you or the other way around.

    There is also the very anthropocentric emotional view that every life is precious. The fecundity of Nature would seem to cast a slightly more practical light on that view.

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    Default Re: A Spiritual war is going on.....

    First think of the soul as the container that encases your spirit.... another way to look at it and a new starting point... ask why this is so?
    With kindest regards

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    Default Re: A Spiritual war is going on.....

    "empty the glass so that god can fill it with light, let loose all of your pre conceived ideas, beliefs and dogma in order to humbly accept the light

    god will help those who help themselves"

    Om Nath Khosla spiritual master

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    Default Re: A Spiritual war is going on.....

    I look at it like this, we didn’t choose our body we helped to create it; the situations that happen while being born are part of the 3D experience and restrictions. Being born blind or in a third world country isn’t a punishment but rather due to how this 3D world was set in motion. While some suffer and others flourish isn’t due to that fact of anything the spirit did but rather the conditions or the environment/location born into. Can you imagine if there were no third world countries, no chemicals, no war, no sickness, no false teachings and no anger? Tell me how much more of an advantage that would be to a child.

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    Default Re: A Spiritual war is going on.....

    Quote Posted by Watching from Cyprus (here)
    I also tend to believe that process, but it does not make sense if you think about the babies born into certain death i.e Africa..... what is the learning point for the sole who choose to be born as such??? Simply does not make sense.
    Two words immediately came to mind when reading your comments here... 'soul contract'.
    i.e. two (or more) souls agreeing to provide one another with a shared, pre-arranged experience or set of experiences.
    Perhaps it's not the soul of the African child who dies an early death that is the 'primary experiencer' in the scenario you've presented.?
    Perhaps the only purpose of that child's decision to incarnate here is to provide its parents with the "opportunity" to experience a terrible hardship (e.g. losing their child).?
    I know it might sound harsh... but an experience like that would make for some SERIOUS soul food I would think (for all parties involved).
    IMO life is ALL about gaining experience... the good, the bad, the ugly, and everything else in between.
    And what better place to experience the full spectrum of emotions and possibilities than here on Earth?
    Seriously, we get access to the lot here!
    Love, hate, joy, sorrow, fear, hope, gratitude etc etc etc the list goes on and on.
    Anyways, just my personal thoughts on the matter.
    Call me crazy if you want
    Last edited by D-Day; 15th November 2011 at 13:10.

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    Default Re: A Spiritual war is going on.....

    Quote Posted by D-DAY (here)
    Quote Posted by Watching from Cyprus (here)
    I also tend to believe that process, but it does not make sense if you think about the babies born into certain death i.e Africa..... what is the learning point for the sole who choose to be born as such??? Simply does not make sense.
    Two words immediately came to mind when reading your comments here... 'soul contract'.
    i.e. two (or more) souls agreeing to provide one another with a shared, pre-arranged experience or set of experiences.
    Perhaps it's not the soul of the African child who dies an early death that is the 'primary experiencer' in the scenario you've presented.?
    Perhaps the only purpose of that child's decision to incarnate here is to provide its parents with the "opportunity" to experience a terrible hardship (e.g. losing their child).?
    I know it might sound harsh... but an experience like that would make for some SERIOUS soul food I would think (for all parties involved).
    IMO life is ALL about gaining experience... the good, the bad, the ugly, and everything else in between.
    And what better place to experience the full spectrum of emotions and possibilities than here on Earth?
    Seriously, we get access to the lot here!
    Love, hate, joy, sorrow, fear, hope, gratitude etc etc etc the list goes on and on.
    Anyways, just my personal thoughts on the matter.
    Call me crazy if you want
    I like what you said and agree with you.... as for Craziness, we are crazy in here according to the rest of the population out there !hihihi

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    Default Re: A Spiritual war is going on.....

    Quote Posted by modwiz (here)

    There is also the very anthropocentric emotional view that every life is precious. The fecundity of Nature would seem to cast a slightly more practical light on that view.

    Good point. I recommend that anyone on the personal empowerment path needs to look carefully at what Modwiz is stating here.
    It is just too easy to let our compassion turn us into helpless victims who could end up getting sucked into a whirlpool of someone else's agenda.

    Better to continue with our own path, focus un making money during our twenties and strive with every fiber to become independent of the job market, whatever the cost;
    only that will give us the freedom to choose our own cause, carefully, and with knowledge of our original soul contract.

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    Default Re: A Spiritual war is going on.....

    Quote Posted by sdafnom (here)
    Quote Posted by Kiki (here)
    Hello everyone,

    I'de like to know what your opinions are on this topic. I personally belive that we are Spirits that chose a body and live for ever. I hear that we must save our Spirits (Souls)! How can it be taken from us? And how do we save it?? How do we fight for it??

    Kiki
    The main thief of souls has a name: Ignorance.

    How can be taken? By your un-acknowledgment of its existence.
    How do we save it? By learning who and what you are.
    How do we fight for it? Knowledge.

    Stavros
    To add...

    Nothing, and I mean -- NO-THING can harm, hurt, rape, steal, pillage you without your consent. The only time we become defeated is when we are UNAWARE of our power and ACCEPT the current state as "this is just how it is."

    I know there are situations in this world where people say "it not my fault," or "i was born this way," - its an excuse. This challenge, ALL challenge is a gift because it is GIVEN to you. Everything happens FOR us and not TO us - and when we can become aware of this, the empowerment and god'self within us will always shine, under any circumstance, any part of the world - no matter who or what you are. At the end of the day, YOU choose, no one chooses for you.

    Even a soul contract can be broken - we are a free-will universe - and once we stop relating purpose to the tangible things that happen, we will truly see the meaning of our lives.

    Last edited by Zillah; 15th November 2011 at 13:48.

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    Default Re: A Spiritual war is going on.....

    Quote Posted by ulli (here)
    Quote Posted by modwiz (here)

    There is also the very anthropocentric emotional view that every life is precious. The fecundity of Nature would seem to cast a slightly more practical light on that view.

    Good point. I recommend that anyone on the personal empowerment path needs to look carefully at what Modwiz is stating here.
    It is just too easy to let our compassion turn us into helpless victims who could end up getting sucked into a whirlpool of someone else's agenda.

    Better to continue with our own path, focus un making money during our twenties and strive with every fiber to become independent of the job market, whatever the cost;
    only that will give us the freedom to choose our own cause, carefully, and with knowledge of our original soul contract.
    I was going to comment on Modwiz's statement but I thought it was useless here.
    Now that I see (and agree with) Ulli's statement, let me add my two cents:

    We all live (or brought up with) with someone else's preconceived ideas.
    Nature can teach us far more wisdom if we take the time to watch and study how it really works. A beneficial teacher for human kind, impartial to "false" emotions.
    Modwiz's statement goes way beyond feeling emotional for a premature death of a child (or any other unfortunate creature on this planet) as MSM bombard us with.
    Lets really examine where our feelings come from...

    And yes Ulli, as soon as you have your basic needs covered, you can start focusing on the really important issues in life! I totally agree.

    Stavros
    Truth will not set you free. Knowledge will...

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    Default Re: A Spiritual war is going on.....

    The softest steel can be forged into the sharpest blade but, it must first be put through the fire...
    “Bundinn er bátlaus maður”

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    Default Re: A Spiritual war is going on.....

    I Will Choose Free-Will
    And
    Does The Soul Exist



    Does the soul exist? Is there any evidence to support this? In this article I'll show you one argument that I think supports the existence of a soul. Before going on, I’d like to establish the law of cause-and-effect. There is a metaphysical precept called ex nihilo nihil fit (which is Latin for “from nothing, nothing is produced”). This reasoning demands that, for any event that begins to exist, something must have caused it. This is because the idea of nothing producing such an event is ontologically impossible (from nothing, nothing is produced). Both scientists and laymen have observed the phenomenon of cause-and-effect. It rains because the clouds above are saturated with water, waves are formed because of the wind, cars move because the engine causes it to move, and so forth.

    Suppose a dark, gray cloud shoots out lightning that strikes down a heavy tree, which in turn falls down on Bob’s favorite car. Can Bob rightfully blame the tree for the destruction of his car? No, the tree didn’t have a choice in the matter. Its fall was simply caused by the lightning, which was caused static electricity, which resulted from the clouds, which came about by weather patterns etc. Unlike the tree, we humans have a special ability that can cause us to be responsible for our actions. Rather than being pipelines for chains of natural causation that go back before our birth, we can initiate our own causal chains. This ability is commonly called free will.

    Free will is about voluntary choice, being able to choose one’s own actions, and thus the freedom to make choices that are not determined by prior causes. (For if our actions were forced on us by prior causes outside our control, we would not have free will.)

    But do we really possess free will? Are we really capable of choosing our own actions? Experiment for yourself. To see if you have free will, intentionally do something, anything at all. For instance, try to move your arm. Can you do it? I think I can. And the evidence (direct perceptions) would seem to indicate that we do indeed have free will.


    As we’ll see later on, the existence of free will is the foundation of the upcoming argument for the existence of the soul. But there are some people who believe the existence of free will is only an illusion, and instead our actions are determined by prior causes. Thus we have no choice in whatever we do. A rebuttal to this would be that we should trust our direct perceptions (just as we generally trust sense experience) unless we have good reason to believe otherwise, and that there is no sufficiently good reason to believe otherwise. But, like the existence of free will, even this is a point that can be disputed. So, is it the case that free will exists?


    Before continuing, let's look at some terminology.

    materialism: the belief that the physical world is the only reality. Thus, things if incorporeal substance (such as the soul) do not exist.
    physicalism: the belief that we have physical bodies but no nonphysical minds or souls.
    Technically, one can believe in physicalism but not materialism. For instance, it is logically possible for one to believe in an incorporeal God, but purely physical humans. Nonetheless, many physicalists are also materialists.
    determinism: the belief that all effects (including our actions) are determined by prior causes.
    metaphysical freedom: the belief that we can choose among genuine alternatives (what many think of when they read the term “free will”).
    libertarianism: belief that we have metaphysical freedom, and thus rejects determinism. Libertarianism comes in two forms: agency theory and indeterminism.
    indeterminism: sometimes called simple indeterminism, this theory defines free will as “an effect without a cause” and that we have such free will.
    One criticism of this belief is that it seems to violate ex nihilo nihil fit.
    agency theory: the belief that free will is an act of agent-causation, whereby an agent (person, self) causes an event to happen.
    Agency theory should not be confused with simple indeterminism. In agency theory, an act of free will is not a random, uncaused event. Rather, we (agents) cause things and create new causal chains. As you might have guessed, the type of metaphysical view of free will being discussed here is agency theory. But is the essence of an agent nonphysical (as the soul) or purely physical? Read on.

    In the following argument, free will the foundational piece of evidence that supports the existence of the soul (the immaterial basis of oneself). Recall that free will involves the freedom to make choices that are not determined by prior causes. Therefore, free will is itself a cause and not an effect in its interactions with corporeality. So if free will is to exist, its basis must be incorporeal (once the corporeal is excluded, the incorporeal is the only remaining logical possibility). Since it is the self that causes the actions (i.e. is the basis of the free will), and if the basis of free will is necessarily incorporeal, then the basis of the self is incorporeal. Since the incorporeal essence of the self is called the soul, then if free will exists the soul must exist also. Free will obviously exists, therefore the soul does also.

    Confused? Okay, let’s take it one step at a time:

    Free will exists (follows from direct perceptions).
    The soul is the incorporeal essence of oneself (by definition).
    Free will is about voluntary choice, being able to choose one’s own actions; the freedom to make choices that are not determined by prior causes. (By definition.)
    Therefore, free will is itself a cause and not an effect in its interactions with corporeality (follows from 3, see also further justification below).
    So if free will exists, its basis must be incorporeal. (Follows from 4. If free will exists it has to have some kind of existence; and from 4 free will is not an effect in its interactions with corporeality, the basis of free will cannot be corporeal, the only alternative left is the incorporeal; see also further justification below.)
    The self chooses one’s own actions (part of the definition of free will, i.e. from line 3), and is thus the basis of free will.
    The basis of the self must be incorporeal if free will exists, since the basis of free will must be incorporeal, and the basis of free will is the self (from 2, 5 and 6).
    Conclusion: The soul exists because free will exists (from 1 and 7).
    Some quick terminology: an argument being valid just means that, if premises are true, then the conclusion must be true also. A sound argument is both valid and has all true premises. There are two ways the above argument can be unsound. One is that the argument is invalid (not valid), i.e. the conclusion does not logically follow somewhere along the way. In that case, the question would be, “which line of the argument does not logically follow from the statement(s) it’s based upon?” The second way the argument can fail to be sound is if one of the premises is wrong. In that case, “which premise fails and why?”

    A quick way to attack the argument is to deny the existence of free will. Thus, a person who disbelieves in the existence of free will could reject line 1. Though rational support for the first premise was given, one could still claim (rationally or irrationally?) that that those perceptions are illusory. But if free will does exist, does it logically follow that the soul must exist also? After all, if free will exists and if the argument is valid, then the soul would have to exist. So is the argument valid? To better answer this question, let’s more closely examine lines 4 and 5 of the argument.

    Further Justification for Lines 4 and 5
    Here’s the problem in a nutshell: in a purely physical world, our actions are solely the product of forces completely beyond our control, and thus we would not have free will. To better illustrate lines 4 and 5 of the argument, let’s look at the materialist’s view. The causal chain would be something like this:



    Natural Processes
    |
    CAUSE
    |
    Inner Brain States
    |
    CAUSE
    |
    Mental and Physical Actions


    Because of cause-and-effect however, this corporeal chain of causation would extend back well before we were born. Yet conditions before our birth are clearly outside of our control, so the chain of causation would look something like this:



    Natural Processes Outside Our Control
    |
    CAUSE
    |
    Inner Brain States
    |
    CAUSE
    |
    Mental and Physical Actions


    But if this is accurate, we would not be originating the cause of anything. We would be just like the tree that fell on Bob's car, being a conduit of natural forces outside our control. In this case, our actions would be determined by prior causes. We would not have free will. This is why free will by definition cannot be an effect in corporeality (hence line 4). To have free will we must exist outside this corporeal tapestry (hence line 5). If free will exists and its basis cannot be corporeal, the only logical alternative is the incorporeal realm. Since its basis must be incorporeal, we must logically have souls if we possess free will.



    While the argument may seem sound, especially if free will exists, there are a few points that could be disputed. The argument could still be rejected if free will does not exist. Does human volition exist? Are the arguments for lines 4 and 5 sufficient rational grounds for accepting them as true?

    http://www.angelfire.com/mn2/tistham...phil/soul.html

    I Will Choose Free Will!

    Last edited by WhiteFeather; 15th November 2011 at 18:35.
    "Although I Live On This World, I Choose Not To Live In It"
    <:~W.F.~:>

    "The answer to every question can be found in nature, if one knows how to look and listen”
    Gwilda Wiyaka

    "Everything on the Earth has a purpose, Every disease a herb to cure it, and every person a mission. This is the Indian theory of existence".
    Mourning Dove Salish


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    Default Re: A Spiritual war is going on.....

    Thank you very much, your and every ones comments to my comment are deeply appreciated and sums it all up. I feel better now ;-)
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    Last edited by lightning23; 15th December 2014 at 04:41.
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