Con artists

[write4change]

It has taken me over two hours to read this entire thread word for word which is my usual process for what I consider to be extremely important subjects. There was someone who wrote I find the total truth in nothing and therefore initially pursue everything--or something to that effect. That is essentially how I function first. Second, I have learned to believe my lying eyes--what I see I see regardless of how someone else interprets it.

I read this with interest because I was brought up in a different world where I did not fear my neighbors nor did we lock our doors against one another. Stealing your neighbor or your friends stuff was not even a consideration. Thus, I have been conned in many ways because it is still hard for me to believe that we would do to each other some of the stuff I have seen. I did not have a TV for over two years and I am amazed how that changed my life. I got one in June, it broke after two months. LOL I found I could no longer watch MSM news period. It literally made me sick. The advertisements floored me at how over the top they had gotten. I got addicted to watching one program--Criminal Minds. The idea that these may be actual cases or even worse some one's imagination of story telling for entertainement was the ultimate hook. How far would people go for a few minutes of fame or the chance to make a buck? Turns out that is the one thing of abundance that appears to be limitless. Is that true of the human race or just Americans?

For information on truth, the state supreme court of Florida ruled that fox news had no duty to tell the truth regarding any news and unheld the right to file reporters who refused to distort the truth about hormones in milk. Recently, the United States Supreme Court has accepted a case about a politician's right to lie. The issue is can a politician be impeached for lying about a military record that never existed and is it relevant to people's vote.

[ClandestineDisclosure]

After reading your post, I had some thoughts. Hope you don't mind if I share.

I wonder...what do you suppose would make an adequate measuring stick of proof for spiritual matters or spiritual experiences? What is there to prove - whether the experience happened at all; and, perhaps whether messages coming through have value to one or all? Without a doubt, there are folks out there leveraging the hearts and minds of unwitting 'customers' by hocking clearings; fortune-telling; healing; channeled messages, et. al. Are these services more; or, are they less valid if the services are freely given, as opposed to taking a fee? Who's to say whether the one offering services 'has it' or not -- a State Board -- a community of psychic peers -- an organized church -- the Vatican -- or one's own discernment? This particular issue is near and dear to my heart. I've wondered. I've actively searched. I've interviewed some really interesting and crazy people. I've listened; I've experienced; and, I've applied the things I've been told. To answer my own question, there is no measuring stick of proof (or scientific method) that can be applied to spiritual matters which produces tangible results. In that respect, spirituality is unprovable. The only proof is to acquire an understanding. Based on my personal experience, understanding is arrived at by seeking and acquiring a spiritual experience. I reckon in the end, spiritual experiences are personal and perhaps should be kept to ourselves, lest we risk being placed on a pedestal, or worse - spawning a new religion? Who wants that; and, why would they want that? Obviously, I have had personal spiritual experiences. In fact, they were extremely beyond any possible experience one can have in the here and now; and, I wish everyone on the planet could have the exact same experience. The specifics of the experience don't matter. My point is, I'm not selling it for money. I don't channel. I don't read palms. I don't do healing, or psychic readings, or whatever. I have no interest in conning anyone, or spawning a religion. I know that I am not unique in my experience. I simply learned from others who I had initially considered as crazy, until I looked deeper and tried what they said. I was surprised by the results. Now, some people's intuition may tell them I'm a liar. Thing is: Their intuition is irrelevant to my spiritual experiences and has zero bearing on what I know to be truth.

Peace,

Walter

[write4change]

CD while I absolutely agree with you and share some of your feelings and observaions, I also absolutely agree with Brandon which is why I find taking a line in the sand impossible. Nothing is ever simple in reality is it? It always has layers and layers or as some say multiple dimensions.

[Unified Serenity]

Posted by ClandestineDisclosure (here)
Thing is: Their intuition is irrelevant to my spiritual experiences and has zero bearing on what I know to be truth.

Peace,

Walter

I know exactly what you mean when you say this. The thing is you made a very important point, you are not trying to create followers, sell books, or put yourself out there are anyone's teacher, healer, psychic etc.. Those who claim such things and offer nice stories with zero credibility or back up beyond they have a nice aura or energy can and do cause much damage especially if they have a god complex.

I said almost your same words to my partner, Khaleesi, earilier that I know what I have experienced in my life. That the ghost stories I can tell are just that to a non-believer because my parents are dead, and most of the people who did experience things together are gone now from my life. I don't get insulted if people I share these things with don't believe me or even ridicule me for saying it. I know the truth in this matter for me, and I am not trying to form a following so I don't have to save face.

[Borden]

I'd just like to be clear on something, because I realise that I could easily appear to be dismissive about everything, about things I don't dismiss.

It isn't that I dismiss certain of these subjects, but rather the people who use those subjects deceitfully. It is my opinion - and by no means an off the cuff one - that benevolent entities would not and do not speak through people. They speak to people. As far as I'm concerned, anything that wants to speak through a person is not to be trusted. If I actually thought the 'channellers' were genuine I would feel nothing but concern for them. I'm not even calling them liars, but it's my belief that we can all access great wisdom from what I would call our higher selves. I can see how it might be possible to personify this and actually believe it is some 'other' speaking through you rather than your higher self. It's the famous ones that anger me though. The ones who make millions. I've listened to some of them, and the tragedy is that I found what I thought to be good philosophy and advice ... but to present it in that bogus way destroys and corrupts the quite possibly positive and helpful message. Especially when they slip up occasionally in their performance and their act is laid bare for someone like me to spot and smile at, shaking my head.

Trying to think of an analogy here. Okay, I believe that many plants, foods and natural substances are beneficial to our health. I do not believe that most of what the doctor will give you is beneficial to your health. This world hijacks everything that is good and turns it bad. And it seems the more important something is to our general well-being ... the more aggressively it will be hijacked and corrupted. Big Pharma's 'medicine' is evil's answer to natural health. Religion is evil's answer to spirituality.

I've always considered the subjects discussed here and in other alternative places to be so 'fringe' that evil wouldn't bother corrupting them, but now I feel I was naive about that. I am not however saying that every deluded or disingenuous person with a tale to tell is some sort of disinfo agent. That would be far too paranoid. However, if we were to get on to the subject of manifestation and predictive programming, it could be said that anyone who muddies the waters of these already marginalised subjects may be buying into a force for evil, albeit unwittingly.

It isn't that I would rather certain subjects or their speakers not be included here, not at all. I'm reminded of that argument I once heard about censorship and freedom of speech. The argument seemed to be that if some idiot is allowed to shout 'fire' in a crowded building, that idiot could cause a disaster. My immediate thought was that if we live in a world where idiots are not allowed to shout 'fire' in crowded buildings ... we become so weak minded that we can't even spot an idiot shouting 'fire' in a crowded building when there isn't one. But of course, when the PTB shout 'fire' we all jump. Unfortunately we live in a world where there are idiots in high places.

This thread was always about discernment, not about censorship. Censorship dulls discernment. I just feel that sharpness and discernment is the answer.

Borden.

[Borden]

Posted by write4change (here)
It has taken me over two hours to read this entire thread word for word which is my usual process for what I consider to be extremely important subjects. There was someone who wrote I find the total truth in nothing and therefore initially pursue everything--or something to that effect. That is essentially how I function first. Second, I have learned to believe my lying eyes--what I see I see regardless of how someone else interprets it.

I read this with interest because I was brought up in a different world where I did not fear my neighbors nor did we lock our doors against one another. Stealing your neighbor or your friends stuff was not even a consideration. Thus, I have been conned in many ways because it is still hard for me to believe that we would do to each other some of the stuff I have seen. I did not have a TV for over two years and I am amazed how that changed my life. I got one in June, it broke after two months. LOL I found I could no longer watch MSM news period. It literally made me sick. The advertisements floored me at how over the top they had gotten. I got addicted to watching one program--Criminal Minds. The idea that these may be actual cases or even worse some one's imagination of story telling for entertainement was the ultimate hook. How far would people go for a few minutes of fame or the chance to make a buck? Turns out that is the one thing of abundance that appears to be limitless. Is that true of the human race or just Americans?

For information on truth, the state supreme court of Florida ruled that fox news had no duty to tell the truth regarding any news and unheld the right to file reporters who refused to distort the truth about hormones in milk. Recently, the United States Supreme Court has accepted a case about a politician's right to lie. The issue is can a politician be impeached for lying about a military record that never existed and is it relevant to people's vote.

Thank you, write4change,

it's not just America, believe me. I stopped watching TV early this year, and on the few occasions I have walked past one or been in a room where a TV is on, I've felt nauseous, angry and invaded. What's really scary is to watch other people watching TV. As you and I know, some time away from it gives you a different perspective on what people allow to stream into their minds through that screen. I've still got a TV for watching DVDs on, and in England there are one or two very funny comedy panel shows, which I watch on the Internet, but if there are adverts I will mute the sound before even starting the show. I really do find television adverts that offensive, and it chills me that people seem able, as I was once, to imagine that they are tuning them out. The news, I agree, is just horrific to observe now. In this country it consists of increasingly patronising hair-dos bleating nonsense almost as baby talk ... talking down to the masses and lying so appallingly and regularly that it honestly feels I'm in some sci-fi horror film where everyone is hypnotised and drugged and I'm the only person awake! Aaaargh!

There's another phrase I saw on someone's posts here, but I forgot who. Anyway, it really stuck with me, and I think it's a good attitude. "I don't have to believe everything I think". I think most people do not allow themselves to even consider many subjects because they would feel foolish, and because the herd maintains the consensus that those subjects are nonsense. I ponder some absolutely crazy ideas sometimes, and sometimes I get sucked into something bizarre and ridiculous I've read on the Internet, only to find that I then decide it was rubbish. At least I entertain the ideas. I think that strengthens your discernment.

Your last paragraph is pretty scary, but thanks for sharing good information. I've said it before here, but I feel it's so important. The real con-artists to worry about are the ones running the world!

Borden.

[Unified Serenity]

Posted by Borden (here)
There's another phrase I saw on someone's posts here, but I forgot who. Anyway, it really stuck with me, and I think it's a good attitude. "I don't have to believe everything I think". I think most people do not allow themselves to even consider many subjects because they would feel foolish, and because the herd maintains the consensus that those subjects are nonsense. I ponder some absolutely crazy ideas sometimes, and sometimes I get sucked into something bizarre and ridiculous I've read on the Internet, only to find that I then decide it was rubbish. At least I entertain the ideas. I think that strengthens your discernment.

Your last paragraph is pretty scary, but thanks for sharing good information. I've said it before here, but I feel it's so important. The real con-artists to worry about are the ones running the world!

Borden.

Hey Borden,

First let me say I really appreciate your thoughts and starting the threads that you have. I drive Khaleesi crazy sometimes because I do the very things you talked about here. I find something and begin chewing on it like a pit bull with a prized bone. I set aside all my beliefs while I consider what on the surface looks crazy yet for some reason draws my attention. I go into the whole pro side of that view. I absorb everything I can, then I ponder it, mull it over, and then I search for the con side on it and absorb everything I can, then I ponder it and if I am ready I make a determination. Some stuff I will toss aside, some stuff, I will say wow that's very interesting and maybe true, and other stuff I just scratch my head and leave it on the shelf waiting for more to surface. I will do this for days and weeks until Khaleesi nearly throws a fit because I won't stop yabbering on about it.

Some of the recent events caused me to really step back and hence the threads I recently started. I will be posting another more mundane one that ties into the recent topics I have been discussing. It will be pretty academic and boring to most, but it will also be highly profitable if some want to make use of it. It will take a good deal of time to put it all together, so until then I will be a tad bit busy. Right now, I am having coffee and catching up on stuff.

Warm regards to you,

Serenity

[Borden]

Posted by ClandestineDisclosure (here)
After reading your post, I had some thoughts. Hope you don't mind if I share.

I wonder...what do you suppose would make an adequate measuring stick of proof for spiritual matters or spiritual experiences? What is there to prove - whether the experience happened at all; and, perhaps whether messages coming through have value to one or all? Without a doubt, there are folks out there leveraging the hearts and minds of unwitting 'customers' by hocking clearings; fortune-telling; healing; channeled messages, et. al. Are these services more; or, are they less valid if the services are freely given, as opposed to taking a fee? Who's to say whether the one offering services 'has it' or not -- a State Board -- a community of psychic peers -- an organized church -- the Vatican -- or one's own discernment? This particular issue is near and dear to my heart. I've wondered. I've actively searched. I've interviewed some really interesting and crazy people. I've listened; I've experienced; and, I've applied the things I've been told. To answer my own question, there is no measuring stick of proof (or scientific method) that can be applied to spiritual matters which produces tangible results. In that respect, spirituality is unprovable. The only proof is to acquire an understanding. Based on my personal experience, understanding is arrived at by seeking and acquiring a spiritual experience. I reckon in the end, spiritual experiences are personal and perhaps should be kept to ourselves, lest we risk being placed on a pedestal, or worse - spawning a new religion? Who wants that; and, why would they want that? Obviously, I have had personal spiritual experiences. In fact, they were extremely beyond any possible experience one can have in the here and now; and, I wish everyone on the planet could have the exact same experience. The specifics of the experience don't matter. My point is, I'm not selling it for money. I don't channel. I don't read palms. I don't do healing, or psychic readings, or whatever. I have no interest in conning anyone, or spawning a religion. I know that I am not unique in my experience. I simply learned from others who I had initially considered as crazy, until I looked deeper and tried what they said. I was surprised by the results. Now, some people's intuition may tell them I'm a liar. Thing is: Their intuition is irrelevant to my spiritual experiences and has zero bearing on what I know to be truth.

Peace,

Walter

Thank you, Walter,

Those are some interesting points, and I agree that there is no feasible measuring stick. The trouble is that - as you say - there are people out there taking advantage of so many of these subjects that can't be proven or disproven. The thinking behind this thread is all about developing a 'truth sense' like the Bene Gesserit from the 'Dune' novels. I have no interest in picking apart people's personal experiences. When they take them on tour and make a profit from them however, I am forced to take that into consideration. It doesn't mean I automatically assume the worst, it just means that their way of presenting their information is an aspect I must consider.

I've had many experiences in my life that directly contradict the mainstream version of reality. I know that these things are personal, and as you mention your experiences in the way you did, I certainly wouldn't argue with them or attempt to debunk them. I feel the same way ... there just is no way to prove these experiences that are personal. I don't know what your experiences are, but I wouldn't assume you to be lying. Believe it or not, I harbour great frustration that I can't explain some of the things I've experienced. They are profound to me, but as many of us here feel, I'm sure - I would likely be considered crazy if I tried to explain it all and asked people to believe it all. I feel that inhibition even here in this environment! So I too have to bite my tongue and adopt the same attitude you do - that other peoples' opinions have zero bearing on what I know to be the truth.

I've just been thinking about this honestly, and the truth is that if I were start giving interviews and doing lectures on my experiences ... I would fully expect the audience's stance to be 'I'll listen to him but he's probably lying or crazy'.

And I think that's fair. The opposite end of that spectrum is any old nonsense being accepted freely with no limits. I think the onus should be on these speakers to accept that we think they are probably lying. I said that elsewhere in this thread, and I feel strongly about it. I detest this attitude I sometimes see where if you don't accept whatever you're being told or some book says you're perceived as negative and mainstream. I think these interviewees should gracefully accept our misgivings, and start from the position that they need to earn our belief in what they say. Of course I don't mean we should attack them and harangue them.

I just think it could be a far healthier, more intelligent climate if we had less "aliens and angels talk to me and I know all about Mars bases and if you question that you're negative and ignorant" ...

and more ... "Right, I know this sounds ridiculous so I fully anticipate your skepticism, but please hear me out because I really do have some important information."

Thanks for your thoughts,

Borden

[Tethys13]

I am in total agreement. I try to have an open mind as much as possible, yet the skeptic in me at times causes me to do extensive research on both sides of anything. That is partly why I am not a huge fan of using Youtube as a total means of proof in things preternatural. I enjoy the science of things I guess. Seeing isn't always believing. I over analyze most of the time until I am sure of something. I have had many unexplainable experiences myself, but at times I will still question it to make sure I'm not off my rocker. As for con-artists themselves I think about people like Bob Lazar and Billy Meier. Whether there was ever any truth to any of it or whether or not it was part of disinformation. Things like that can ruin it for those really seeking truth.

[Borden]

Posted by Unified Serenity (here)

Posted by Borden (here)
There's another phrase I saw on someone's posts here, but I forgot who. Anyway, it really stuck with me, and I think it's a good attitude. "I don't have to believe everything I think". I think most people do not allow themselves to even consider many subjects because they would feel foolish, and because the herd maintains the consensus that those subjects are nonsense. I ponder some absolutely crazy ideas sometimes, and sometimes I get sucked into something bizarre and ridiculous I've read on the Internet, only to find that I then decide it was rubbish. At least I entertain the ideas. I think that strengthens your discernment.

Your last paragraph is pretty scary, but thanks for sharing good information. I've said it before here, but I feel it's so important. The real con-artists to worry about are the ones running the world!

Borden.

Hey Borden,

First let me say I really appreciate your thoughts and starting the threads that you have. I drive Khaleesi crazy sometimes because I do the very things you talked about here. I find something and begin chewing on it like a pit bull with a prized bone. I set aside all my beliefs while I consider what on the surface looks crazy yet for some reason draws my attention. I go into the whole pro side of that view. I absorb everything I can, then I ponder it, mull it over, and then I search for the con side on it and absorb everything I can, then I ponder it and if I am ready I make a determination. Some stuff I will toss aside, some stuff, I will say wow that's very interesting and maybe true, and other stuff I just scratch my head and leave it on the shelf waiting for more to surface. I will do this for days and weeks until Khaleesi nearly throws a fit because I won't stop yabbering on about it.

Some of the recent events caused me to really step back and hence the threads I recently started. I will be posting another more mundane one that ties into the recent topics I have been discussing. It will be pretty academic and boring to most, but it will also be highly profitable if some want to make use of it. It will take a good deal of time to put it all together, so until then I will be a tad bit busy. Right now, I am having coffee and catching up on stuff.

Warm regards to you,

Serenity

Hi, Serenity ... and thank you.

I like your approach! I'm pretty similar, and people who know me are sometimes amazed at the things I pay attention to. It's as you say: sometimes something draws your attention even though it looks crazy on the surface. I find that the trick of stepping out of my own way often works. If a thing is imponderable and I just get nowhere questioning and researching it ... to stop thinking about it altogether for a while means that my sub-conscious mind can ignore the idiot in the driving seat and point out the pertinent stuff I missed!

I felt for you and fully agreed with you in a recent thread about a dramatic fiasco you commented on, but I didn't want to say anything because I just don't know enough about that particular subject or those particular people. Having now listened to the interview in question I have to say I agree with you even more.

I feel for Khaleesi, because there are those who have suffered similarly from my obsessive analysis, haha. My ex partner was a totally different story ... all of the things we discuss here were verboten conversation material with her! That has considerable bearing on why she is my ex partner!

I'm curious about your coming thread now, and will look out for it,

best wishes,

Borden

[Khaleesi]

Posted by Borden (here)

I feel for Khaleesi, because there are those who have suffered similarly from my obsessive analysis, haha. My ex partner was a totally different story ... all of the things we discuss here were verboten conversation material with her! That has considerable bearing on why she is my ex partner!

I'm curious about your coming thread now, and will look out for it,

best wishes,

Borden

LOL ... thanks Borden. I finally learned to say "Serenity put your headphones on. My BS meter went off A LONG TIME AGO!" Sometimes I just hit a wall of information overload and need a break. No subject is verboten, but sometimes I just need time to re-center and am willing to come back to the subject at a later date.

[Miller]

[QUOTE=Borden;389805]

Posted by ClandestineDisclosure (here)

I've had many experiences in my life that directly contradict the mainstream version of reality. I know that these things are personal, and as you mention your experiences in the way you did, I certainly wouldn't argue with them or attempt to debunk them. I feel the same way ... there just is no way to prove these experiences that are personal. I don't know what your experiences are, but I wouldn't assume you to be lying. Believe it or not, I harbour great frustration that I can't explain some of the things I've experienced. They are profound to me, but as many of us here feel, I'm sure - I would likely be considered crazy if I tried to explain it all and asked people to believe it all.
Borden

Me too Borden. I speak only for myself but I'm sure that others here have had experiences similar to yours in that people would think they were crazy if they tried to explain. However, I am not trying to make money out of it, and that's the difference . . . In all the experiences I've read on this forum btw none of them have been the same as mine - perhaps I am crazy ....... but I don't think so.

[Borden]

[QUOTE=w1ndmill;390021]

Posted by Borden (here)

Posted by ClandestineDisclosure (here)

I've had many experiences in my life that directly contradict the mainstream version of reality. I know that these things are personal, and as you mention your experiences in the way you did, I certainly wouldn't argue with them or attempt to debunk them. I feel the same way ... there just is no way to prove these experiences that are personal. I don't know what your experiences are, but I wouldn't assume you to be lying. Believe it or not, I harbour great frustration that I can't explain some of the things I've experienced. They are profound to me, but as many of us here feel, I'm sure - I would likely be considered crazy if I tried to explain it all and asked people to believe it all.
Borden

Me too Borden. I speak only for myself but I'm sure that others here have had experiences similar to yours in that people would think they were crazy if they tried to explain. However, I am not trying to make money out of it, and that's the difference . . . In all the experiences I've read on this forum btw none of them have been the same as mine - perhaps I am crazy ....... but I don't think so.

Hi, w1ndmill,

I think in this world being a bit crazy is the only sane approach! Paradigm changes can redefine crazy so thoroughly though ... crazy for thinking the world is round, and then crazy for thinking it's flat.

By the way, I would have no problem with making money from relating my experiences, and I don't have a problem with that at all - in itself. But obviously, you or I would be doing it from a motivation of 'I have something of value and I also need to make a living'. Fair enough, but that's us - and I'm always aware that many people out there are cold and cynical and have no real respect for the sort of experiences that people like us have had.

I know what you mean ... I've had experiences that were familiar to me from what I'd read and heard, though those experiences never feel that way at the time! But I've also had experiences I've never heard anyone talk about, and some of those things are difficult to talk about. We don't really have a lingua franca for these subjects so they are tricky. What lingua franca we do have seems largely concocted by the very people that so irritate me! Maybe we should invent our own idiom for these things!

Best wishes,

Borden

[Fred259]

Posted by Healthy Skeptic (here)
I joined PA at the start of the 'Charles' debacle.
I was a previous viewer and supporter of PC and PA for years before this.
I saw the 'Charles' interview and was 'extremely skeptical' about it.
But, trying to be 'open minded', I looked forward for comment about it on the Forum.
I was 'extremely dissappointed'. People on the Forum went 'Viral'.
Like stories in the MSM people seemed to go 'out of their way' to support what he (Charles) was saying. I 'could not believe it'. I also noticed that anyone that was criticising his story, on the Forum, was getting 'unsubscribed' at PA. What??? WTF is going on???
This Forum was 'supposed' to be giving people a 'free' place (within reason) to express their opinions!!!
The 'final straw', with me with 'Charles', was when he said in one of his posts (I paraphrase this) that 'I and my 2 African Friends are sitting here laughing at what you people are saying'.This, supposedly from a 'serious' person, I found 'offensive' and 'derogatory' about what are 'supposedly' serious events that are to occur/occuring in the world.
Sorry, Grumpy HS

Was he ( Charles) talking about Avalon Sheeple Healthy Skeptic?

Does this not prove that much of the alternative media is also controlled?

[Borden]

Here's something that struck me while reading some of the recent intelligent posts on this thread ...

The world at large would probably ridicule almost every interviewee we discuss here. They would do it with a blanket sense of smug knowing. When I still watched TV and would occasionally see an item on any show - the sort of item that would make an Avalonian's ears prick up ... it was invariably presented in that smug, knowing way. Anything about a UFO for instance would end with a pair of moronic plastic presenters smirking as though the subject were not important. Not as important as all the miserable dross and lies they are paid to sit and read at you. It used to make me angry every time. One of the reasons I stopped watching television is that I worried one day the anger would get too much and my clothes would rip as I turned enormous and greener than my profile picture. 'Borden smash puny mainstreamers!'

The thing is though, and quite apart from the subjects being - or not being - discussed ... the essence of my anger seems to be that human beings behave as herd animals when we're really not. If the consensus (no matter how manipulated) says one thing, jeering half-wits will stand behind those lines because it's safe there with all the other jeering half-wits. Now, sophisticate that primitive behaviour and you have a world full of people who imagine themselves urbane and clever, but demonstrate the exact same herd mentality as, um ... herd animals. They just do it in an elaborate way and can thereby imagine themselves civilised and intelligent while actually catering only to the exact same considerations as all animals. Shelter, a mate and propagation of the species. That's all it is! It's just decorated with conceits.

In fact, boil everything down and what you mostly have is a species that should really be called Homo Delusionus.

Most people's conversation, interests and philosophy - or rather lack thereof - astound and depress me. 'Sheeple' may be an over-used term, but I think it's such a damned good one. I stopped trying to explain to most people I know about the human farm they exist in a while ago. The reason for this is that no matter how carefully I broached any aspect of this subject - whether it be food additives, the financial system, cultural hypnosis, the fact that dark magicians run the world and have fooled us into believing such ideas are nonsense and fantasy ... people just don't want to know. They're only interested in inequalities and evils that fit manageably into their picture of a generally benign world.

You mention that there's something in that diet drink or chewing gum that is there to poison you ... or that those vaccinations are there to cripple your immune system and render you vulnerable to big Pharma for the rest of your slave life ... and people's eyes go blank. Somehow it doesn't apply to them and is untrue no matter what evidence you show them. Why? Because everybody does it and it's allowed, and so it must be all right.

I have tried to explain, kindly and gently, to some people that they are being poisoned, used and lied to ... and the usual response is one of amusement or anger. The amusement is a herd response. They think because everybody else is drinking this or eating that - because everybody else watches TV and uses a mobile phone - that it must be safe. This is herd mentality. Herd animals rely on their peers for security and equilibrium. The anger response is a herd instinct too. It's the confusing whiff of blood from that ominous building adjacent to the field ... it's a concept too ghastly and mind-blowing for a sheep to understand. The dim notion of ontological panic expresses as self-preservational anger and outrage.

Everybody is looking at the next guy and no-one thinks for himself or herself. THIS is how we are controlled. THIS is how the evil that is perpetrated on us can stand, and THIS is the conditioning that we need to break in order to be free in our minds.

I'm sure (in fact I've read) that many people who come here have struggled at some point with a sort of rug being pulled from under the feet effect. There is a frightening and disorientating period during which black seems to be white and up seems to be down. I would not say I have 'woken up' because I would deem that a pompous statement until I can apotheosise or something and start doing miracles ... but hopefully you know what I mean. We are 'waking up' to some degree at least.

But what many of us have gone through and are going through is not simply the realisation that SANTA doesn't exist ... it's the realisation that he does, but is SATAN. He's Krampus, and he eats children. He is a terrifying perversion of what we thought we knew and was safe and benign.

'They' ... want you sick, stupid, dying young and living your meaningless life only to generate energy for their vile power. That's a tough concept for most people.

This is why despite my anger at the apparently wilful stupidity of the world at large, I also have sympathy. To be honest, if these 'fringe' subjects were only about the evil we are under, and were not also about our glorious potential that 'they' are actively thwarting at every turn ... I'd probably want to take the blue pill too when Morpheus offers it, because what would be the point of knowing?

Here's the thing ... there isn't just one herd. There are lots and lots of little sub-herds in this world. If we've avoided or escaped the religion herd, or the MSM herd, good for us. If we see through the utterly non-holistic stupidity of mainstream 'medicine' and 'nutrition', then we're doing pretty well I think.

But if we then fall right into another little herd where people accept utter nonsense and fall for preposterous and inept lies ... then we've got nowhere at all. We're doing the exact same thing we see the world at large doing, and it insults us. They insult us. I am sick enough of being insulted by the mainstream world and I don't want to be insulted in exactly the same fashion elsewhere.

I feel this with a passion and I apologise if I sometimes sound harsh or melodramatic about it. It just feels so vitally important. There was a recent little 'drama' in the alternative world about which there are threads and lots and lots of discussion here. I don't have the stomach to become involved in those threads or to start talking about that particular incident here - even though it's directly on topic as far as I'm concerned. It made me so sad. It's the sort of thing that makes me despair. I found the level of deception not only child-like and embarrassing, but truly, truly insulting. That's just my opinion, and I can't prove it to you obviously ... but neither can I prove to you that the planet Saturn doesn't have a core of maple syrup. If you think it does, good luck to you.

I should temper all this by saying that I genuinely believe there are plenty of decent people out there and in here ... relating real experiences, real facts and genuine theories. And just as I believe there are decent people out there in the mainstream world doing the best with the information they believe - I know it's the same here. It's not the victims of hoaxes that anger me, it's the perpetrators. I keep saying it, but I think we're all on the same side here, despite disagreements about who is or isn't genuine. The hoaxers are not on our side. That's why it's up to us to be sharp, and to not just look to the next guy to determine what we believe.

Borden

[Fred259]

I agree Borden. Why is it that many on Avalon have an issue dealing with these “nonsense hoax threads”?

Why is it that many members accept the lies and deceit, just because the same lies and deceit can be found elsewhere in the alternative media?

If the alternative media was controlled by the same people who control mainstream media how would Avelonians feel? How many actually consider the possibility that this may be happening and give it serious consideration.?

I’ve noticed that most of hoax threads generate fear and leave the reader feeling a complete sense of hopelessness. Why don’t we just call it by its real name Psy ops.

[smiller113]

Posted by Borden (here)
Here's something that struck me while reading some of the recent intelligent posts on this thread ...

I should temper all this by saying that I genuinely believe there are plenty of decent people out there and in here ... relating real experiences, real facts and genuine theories. And just as I believe there are decent people out there in the mainstream world doing the best with the information they believe - I know it's the same here. It's not the victims of hoaxes that anger me, it's the perpetrators. I keep saying it, but I think we're all on the same side here, despite disagreements about who is or isn't genuine. The hoaxers are not on our side. That's why it's up to us to be sharp, and to not just look to the next guy to determine what we believe.

Borden

Spot on Borden!!! I would add that each of us here have our area of expertise and collectively we can "red flag" the hoaxers. Each of us can bring a piece of the puzzle to the table to either verify or denounce a whistleblower's claims. I understand PA is doing that now but I would like to see a thread entitled "Pro & Con Alert" where the reputation of the Whistleblower is hung out for everyone to know. And yes, that would be naming names. Not just black or white, there would be a lot of grey area here which would lead to some extremely interesting discussions.

[Fred259]

Spot on Borden!!! I would add that each of us here have our area of expertise and collectively we can "red flag" the hoaxers.

And spot on Smiller113......

We do indeed.

We need to include hoax websites and publications as well...

Each of us can bring a piece of the puzzle to the table to either verify or denounce a whistleblower's claims.

Bring it on…

I understand PA is doing that now but I would like to see a thread entitled "Pro & Con Alert" where the reputation of the Whistleblower is hung out for everyone to know.

Agreed…you mean like McCarthyism Smiller….!!!” Have you now or ever…..”

And yes, that would be naming names. Not just black or white, there would be a lot of grey area here which would lead to some extremely interesting discussions.

When can we start? Let’s face it we’ve everything to gain and nothing to loose…

[Borden]

Yes ... er ... no, wait!

Witch hunts are not the answer!

A climate of intelligent discernment is the answer.

What's the best way to get rid of an attention seeker?

Exactly.

Naming people as frauds gives them attention and launches an argument. No publicity is bad publicity for these people. There are two ways to read that sentence of course, both of which work for me!

Borden

[Unified Serenity]

Posted by Fred259 (here)

Spot on Borden!!! I would add that each of us here have our area of expertise and collectively we can "red flag" the hoaxers.

And spot on Smiller113......

We do indeed.

We need to include hoax websites and publications as well...

Each of us can bring a piece of the puzzle to the table to either verify or denounce a whistleblower's claims.

Bring it on…

I understand PA is doing that now but I would like to see a thread entitled "Pro & Con Alert" where the reputation of the Whistleblower is hung out for everyone to know.

Agreed…you mean like McCarthyism Smiller….!!!” Have you now or ever…..”

And yes, that would be naming names. Not just black or white, there would be a lot of grey area here which would lead to some extremely interesting discussions.

When can we start? Let’s face it we’ve everything to gain and nothing to loose…

I would not say nothing to lose because the first person who is enraged by comments or is crying over it will destroy the communication and shut it down because it is "unfair" and not in the spirit of community building. I don't know what to do. I have to evaluate why my buttons are being pushed in the recent kerfuffle some are aware of on the forum. I feel like anytime buttons are pushed within us there is a wound. There is something hitting within that is either a wound or a truth we do not want to see.

I need a time out.

Thanks