The Bible

[RedeZra]

Posted by greybeard (here)

Posted by RedeZra (here)

how do we know the will of God by the way ?

Through prayer Redezra.

prayer is important

to know the will of God we need God to speak to us with voice and visions

God will tell us what God will


what God will with you might not be the same as what God will with me

but we all have the same purpose

to Get to know God

[RedeZra]

God is Spirit

satan is spirit

i am spirit

but in a body

for the time being

[RedeZra]

Jesus Christ is the Word of God

and not a buddy from the block

so we can know the general Will of God

by knowing what the Word spoke


the Word of God is alive and well

so don't get lost in Scripture but seek Jesus Christ


Who Is Life and Light

[58andfixed]

I have an endorsing video clip from YouTube about this very concept Panopticon.

Just because one doesn't believe something doesn't change reality.

"I Can't Believe You Yacht Launch"

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=4R56EeRdgFs

https://youtube.com/watch?v=4R56EeRdgFs

53s 236,851 views

Posted July 30, 2009.

I usually link to 'List of Cognitive Biases' on Wikipedia, however this video seems to get the point home in a much more iconoclastic way.

- 58

Posted by panopticon (here)
Just because you think you are being discerning doesn't mean you are correct.
Just means you're only looking at what you think is correct, that's all.

Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[RedeZra]

2000 years after God of the Old Testament made contact with Abraham Jesus walked the earth

and today is 2000 years since the New Testament


you have heard that with God one day is a thousand years and a thousand years is one day

perhaps with God an Age is a Week

which gives us 6000 years and then a millennial Sabbath or Rest Year under God


in Bible chronology 6000 years have passed and so we are about to enter the Last Day or Sabbath counting a thousand human years of peace and prosperity

where there is no place for evil

and so somehow God will have to eradicate evil from the earth

and chain the devils and demons in Hell for a Millennium

[RedeZra]

the Will of God - the Father

the Word of God - the Christ

the Wisdom of God - the Holy spirit

[panopticon]

Posted by RedeZra (here)
the Will of God - the Father

G'day RedeZra,

I could never respect the "will" of a psychopathic male personification like the old testament god whose "representatives" used fear to induce obedience. The blatant encouragement of abuse against women is enough by itself.

Deuteronomy 20:16-17 (UKJV):

But of the cities of these people, which the LORD your God does give you for an inheritance, you shall keep alive nothing that breathes: But you shall utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD your God has commanded you.

Deuteronomy 21:11-14 (UKJV):

And see among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire unto her, that you would have her to your wife; Then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head, and trim her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in your house, and mourn for her father and her mother a full month: and after that you shall go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. And it shall be, if you have no delight in her, then you shall let her go where she will; but you shall not sell her at all for money, you shall not make merchandise of her, because you have humbled her.

So the God of the OT says that if it breathes kill it unless it's a sheila who looks alright then pretty her up a bit (can't have all that blood on her, that would be barbaric) and screw her until you're sick of her.
You can't sell her if you've screwed her though cause you've already "humbled her" (read as "broken her spirit through rape") so just kick her out in the street.
But it's all ok cause God said it was, as long as you let her mourn for a 'full month' the death of her family that you killed (probably in front of her).

Deuteronomy 22:23-29 (UKJV):

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then all of you shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and all of you shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he has humbled his neighbour's wife: so you shall put away evil from among you. But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die. But unto the damsel you shall do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man rises against his neighbour, and slays him, even so is this matter: For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her. If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he has humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

So if a "betrothed" woman is raped by a man in a city and doesn't yell out she must have enjoyed it and deserves to be stoned along with her rapist. However if she is in a field and raped with no-one around she is spared death. If she's not "betrothed" and gets raped then her father gets paid and she gets sent home with her rapist.

Such is 'the will of god -- the father'.

I respect your right to proclaim "his" glory Redezra.
I shall continue to present an alterate perspective for those who are interested.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[RedeZra]

Posted by panopticon (here)

Posted by RedeZra (here)
the Will of God - the Father

G'day RedeZra,

I could never respect the "will" of a psychopathic male personification like the old testament god whose "representatives" used fear to induce obedience. The blatant encouragement of abuse against women is enough by itself.

I respect your right to proclaim "his" glory Redezra.
I shall continue to present an alterate perspective for those who are interested.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

hi Panopticon


i admit that God of the OT is strict

centuries before the conquest of Caanan God incinerated Sodom and Gomorrah and centuries before that God flooded the whole earth

so God is strict

and the Millenium reign of God will be with a rod of iron where there is no room for sin


God love our souls and not our flesh and when we sin we spoil and ruin our souls

the Master said it's better to pluck out the eye if it causes us to sin then enter Hell with both eyes

sin is serious and we have become insensitive to it


the Caanan culture came from Ham son of Noah who was alloted land in Africa but chose to remain in part of the land alloted to Shem son of Noah

so Caanan trespassed in the first place and secondly the Caanan culture was sacrificing children to their gods Baal Moloch and others

if the culture was not plucked up by the roots within the Promised Land then the Israelites would learn from them and sin as well

and since the Caanan culture in Israel was not eradicated

this is what eventually happened

[Tarka the Duck]

Hello ReDeZra
Firstly, I am not a biblical scholar so please be gentle with me...

With regard to the passages from Deuteronomy as quoted above (I have never read these before - heavy stuff, eh?): you explain these by saying that you believe God to be tough on sin.

What sin were these women in the examples given considered to have committed?

Thanks
Kathie

[RedeZra]

Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)
Hello ReDeZra
Firstly, I am not a biblical scholar so please be gentle with me...

With regard to the passages from Deuteronomy as quoted above (I have never read these before - heavy stuff, eh?): you explain these by saying that you believe God to be tough on sin.

What sin were these women in the examples given considered to have committed?

Thanks
Kathie

hi Kathie

please don't hesitate to ask and yes Deuteronomy is heavy stuff


it is not a sin to be beautiful and the woman in Deuteronomy 21 has ignited the heart of an Israelite who have fallen in love with her

so no sin here

she shall mourn her father and her mother a full month for she is taken from her family to be with an Israelite

if the marriage between the Caananinte and the Israelite doesn't work out then she shall be free to go her way

so no sin here



the virgin who is betrothed unto an husband in Deuteronomy 22 has commited the sin of adultery

because being in a community she should and could cry out for help when another man came unto her

so if she didn't cry out for help then she was probably willing to commit adultery


that is why she has no sin in the field away from the hear and help of the community

[Tarka the Duck]

Thanks for that explanaition, R - I take my hat off to you for all the study you obviously done over the years.

How literally is one supposed to take this I wonder? I am thinking of the last example you mentioned, about the woman who was raped in a city. I may sound as if I am being nit-picky here, but I can think of a dozen reasons, straight off, why the woman may not have been able to call for help. Very different from not wanting to call for help.

[RedeZra]

Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)
Thanks for that explanaition, R - I take my hat off to you for all the study you obviously done over the years.

How literally is one supposed to take this I wonder? I am thinking of the last example you mentioned, about the woman who was raped in a city. I may sound as if I am being nit-picky here, but I can think of a dozen reasons, straight off, why the woman may not have been able to call for help. Very different from not wanting to call for help.

i think this would not work as a rule in our massive cities today

but back then in the communities of the Israelites this was the law


it would not work today

[greybeard]

For myself I am inclined to see the New Testament as a more accurate account of the word of God.
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" being an example.

Chris

[RedeZra]

Posted by greybeard (here)
For myself I am inclined to see the New Testament as a more accurate account of the word of God.
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" being an example.

Chris

i agree Chris and that is why it is named the New Testament

[Anchor]

Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)
Thanks for that explanaition, R - I take my hat off to you for all the study you obviously done over the years

Me too. That was impressive. I don't actually have a hat on, but you know what I mean.

[panopticon]

Posted by RedeZra (here)
it is not a sin to be beautiful and the woman in Deuteronomy 21 has ignited the heart of an Israelite who have fallen in love with her
so no sin here
she shall mourn her father and her mother a full month for she is taken from her family to be with an Israelite
if the marriage between the Caananinte and the Israelite doesn't work out then she shall be free to go her way
so no sin here
the virgin who is betrothed unto an husband in Deuteronomy 22 has commited the sin of adultery
because being in a community she should and could cry out for help when another man came unto her
so if she didn't cry out for help then she was probably willing to commit adultery
that is why she has no sin in the field away from the hear and help of the community

G'day RedeZra,

I agree that it is in no way a sin to be beautiful. That, to me at least, is self evident.
I would ask why you interpret that a soldier who is holding a woman captive and has "humbled" her:

Posted by RedeZra (here)
has fallen in love with her

It seems obvious to me that it is in all likelihood lust, not love.
Maybe there is an "interpretation between languages" problem here?

You are partially correct when you say:

Posted by RedeZra (here)
she is taken from her family to be with an Israelite

Her family has been killed and she is forced to live with one of their murderers.
That is unless you are saying that it may be a form of Stockholm syndrome or the woman trying to survive no matter what, which I would agree are possibilities.
Those possibilities aside, I would argue that it is not her choice to either stay, or leave, but her captors who has control over her in these decisions.

As for your saying:

Posted by RedeZra (here)
so no sin here

I find this attitude typical of fundamentalists when confronted with these passages. The passage clearly says that it is alright to take a woman, use her and discard her. This is exactly the same as many ancient (and not so ancient) societies military practice and is designed to dilute the familial bonds and cohesive structure of the conquered peoples.

For those in doubt that to "humble" a woman is rape and that mass genocide is what is being condoned I would point out Isaiah 13:15-16 (UKJV):

Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

In regards to:

Posted by RedeZra (here)
the virgin who is betrothed unto an husband in Deuteronomy 22 has committed the sin of adultery

Your remark that a rape victim has committed a sin, I find ridiculous.
A knife to the throat, a hand over the mouth or simply being over powered and in fear for her life, leaves the rape victim faultless and from that without "sin".
I'm not certain, but I think you may be mixing up "a want to cry out" and "an ability to cry out".
In no way is the victim to be blamed.
Ever.
Sexual assault is not only about the act of rape, it is about the rapist exerting control and power over their victim. I have known women who have been assaulted and I find your assertions that the woman is at fault scandalous.
Your view/approach is unfortunately typical.

What are your thoughts on placing a rape victim with their abuser after financially remunerating the family?

Remember that when the bible says 'you have humbled her' it is referring to rape.
Plain and clear, no confusion, your god says it is ok to rape a women under certain circumstances.

As for your statement that:

Posted by RedeZra (here)
you have heard that with God one day is a thousand years and a thousand years is one day

I have heard of this but you haven't mentioned it in this thead before as far as I can remember. You are also making a sweeping statement without any evidence (even biblical as far as I know, but please correct me and direct me to the passage/s where this is mentioned).

Also, I find it interesting that your interpretation of 1000 "Earth years" equals one "god day" is the same as the Jehovah's Witness one.
In fact much of your material seems to be JW material and I am curious as to whether you have ever had an affiliation with them?
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[panopticon]

G'day All,

I thought I'd add this for completion.

Here are the same passages interpreted in a clearer manner for those who may have doubts about "lay with her" or "humbled" being references to sexual intercourse.
These are from the 'God's Word' bible.

Deuteronomy 20:16-17 (God's Word):

However, you must not spare anyone's life in the cities of these nations that the LORD your God is giving you as your property. You must claim the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites for the LORD and completely destroy them, as the LORD your God has commanded you.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 (God's Word):

When you go to war with your enemies and the LORD your God hands them over to you, you may take them captive. If you see a beautiful woman among the captives and have your heart set on her, you may marry her. Bring her into your home. She must shave her head, cut her nails, and no longer wear the clothes she was wearing when you captured her. Then she may live in your house and mourn the loss of her father and mother for one month. After that, you may sleep with her. Then you will become husband and wife. But if it happens that you are no longer pleased with her, let her go wherever she wants. You must never sell her or mistreat her as if she were a slave, since you've already had sex with her.

Deuteronomy 22:23-29 (God's Word):

This is what you must do when a man has sexual intercourse with a virgin who is engaged to another man. If this happens in a city, take them to the gate of the city and stone them to death. The girl must die because she was in a city and didn't scream for help. The man must die because he had sex with another man's wife. You must get rid of this evil. But if a man rapes an engaged girl out in the country, then only the man must die. Don't do anything to the girl. She has not committed a sin for which she deserves to die. This is like the case of someone who attacks and murders another person. The man found the girl out in the country. She may have screamed for help, but no one was there to rescue her. This is what you must do when a man rapes a virgin who isn't engaged. When the crime is discovered, the man who had sexual intercourse with her must give the girl's father 1¼ pounds of silver, and she will become his wife. Since he raped her, he can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Isaiah 13:15-16 (God's Word):

Whoever is found will be stabbed to death. Whoever is captured will be executed. Their little children will be smashed to death right before their eyes. Their houses will be looted and their wives raped.

I hope this makes it all a bit clearer.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[RedeZra]

Posted by panopticon (here)
G'day RedeZra,

I agree that it is in no way a sin to be beautiful. That, to me at least, is self evident.
I would ask why you interpret that a soldier who is holding a woman captive and has "humbled" her:

Posted by RedeZra (here)
has fallen in love with her

It seems obvious to me that it is in all likelihood lust, not love.
Maybe there is an "interpretation between languages" problem here?

hi Panopticon

lust or love the Israelite has to marry her before intercourse according to Old Testament law

Posted by panopticon (here)
You are partially correct when you say:

Posted by RedeZra (here)
she is taken from her family to be with an Israelite

Her family has been killed and she is forced to live with one of their murderers.
That is unless you are saying that it may be a form of Stockholm syndrome or the woman trying to survive no matter what, which I would agree are possibilities.
Those possibilities aside, I would argue that it is not her choice to either stay, or leave, but her captors who has control over her in these decisions.

the verse in Deut 21:10 reads captives taken in war and so it is conjecture to say that her family has been killed



[QUOTE=panopticon;379661]
For those in doubt that to "humble" a woman is rape and that mass genocide is what is being condoned I would point out Isaiah 13:15-16 (UKJV):

Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

in the Old Testament law the Israelite must be married before intercourse and so "to humble a woman" means to have sex with the wife as well

the verse in Isaiah 13:15-16 is a prophecy of Isaiah regarding the destruction of Babylon by the Medes

Posted by panopticon (here)
In regards to:

Posted by RedeZra (here)
the virgin who is betrothed unto an husband in Deuteronomy 22 has committed the sin of adultery

Your remark that a rape victim has committed a sin, I find ridiculous.
A knife to the throat, a hand over the mouth or simply being over powered and in fear for her life, leaves the rape victim faultless and from that without "sin".
I'm not certain, but I think you may be mixing up "a want to cry out" and "an ability to cry out".
In no way is the victim to be blamed.
Ever.
Sexual assault is not only about the act of rape, it is about the rapist exerting control and power over their victim. I have known women who have been assaulted and I find your assertions that the woman is at fault scandalous.
Your view/approach is unfortunately typical.

it is not my view but the Old Testament law given by God of the OT to the Israelites

Christ gave the world the New Testament and so the Old Testament is over and done with

Posted by panopticon (here)
What are your thoughts on placing a rape victim with their abuser after financially remunerating the family?

Remember that when the bible says 'you have humbled her' it is referring to rape.
Plain and clear, no confusion, your god says it is ok to rape a women under certain circumstances.

it is not referring to rape as the Israelite has to marry the woman before getting intimate with her

if it was up to me there would be no wars in the world no crime corruption nor rape

i would rule the world with a rod of iron ; )

[panopticon]

G'day RedeZra,

Thank you for the response.
I'm a tad busy at the moment so please excuse my stream of consciousness response.

Posted by RedeZra (here)

Posted by panopticon (here)
I agree that it is in no way a sin to be beautiful. That, to me at least, is self evident.
I would ask why you interpret that a soldier who is holding a woman captive and has "humbled" her:

Posted by RedeZra (here)
has fallen in love with her

It seems obvious to me that it is in all likelihood lust, not love.
Maybe there is an "interpretation between languages" problem here?

hi Panopticon
lust or love the Israelite has to marry her before intercourse according to Old Testament law

Did the woman have a say in this?
It is generally understood that she did not.
So she is forcibly made to marry as a part of the spoils of war.
This is just another variation on the Control/Power mechanism.

Posted by RedeZra (here)

Posted by panopticon (here)
You are partially correct when you say:

Posted by RedeZra (here)
she is taken from her family to be with an Israelite

Her family has been killed and she is forced to live with one of their murderers.
That is unless you are saying that it may be a form of Stockholm syndrome or the woman trying to survive no matter what, which I would agree are possibilities.
Those possibilities aside, I would argue that it is not her choice to either stay, or leave, but her captors who has control over her in these decisions.

the verse in Deut 21:10 reads captives taken in war and so it is conjecture to say that her family has been killed

I think you are mixing up the flow of Deuteronomy here.
It is very clear and states that if the enemy town is close then kill everything (genocide and mass murder) if it is far away then livestock and some women can be left alive. They are in this way "spoils of war".
I concede that it is possible that the Mother wasn't murdered, but instead left with nothing.

Deuteronomy 20:10-17 (God's Word):

When you approach a city to attack it, offer its people a peaceful way to surrender. If they accept it and open their gates to you, then all the people there will be made to do forced labor and serve you. If they won't accept your offer of peace but declare war on you, set up a blockade around the city. When the LORD your God hands the city over to you, kill every man in that city with your swords. But take the women and children, the cattle and everything else in the city, including all its goods, as your loot. You may enjoy your enemies' goods that the LORD your God has given you. This is what you must do to all the cities that are far away which don't belong to the nations nearby. However, you must not spare anyone's life in the cities of these nations that the LORD your God is giving you as your property. You must claim the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites for the LORD and completely destroy them, as the LORD your God has commanded you.

Heart warming stuff.

Posted by RedeZra (here)

Posted by panopticon (here)
For those in doubt that to "humble" a woman is rape and that mass genocide is what is being condoned I would point out Isaiah 13:15-16 (UKJV):

Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

in the Old Testament law the Israelite must be married before intercourse and so "to humble a woman" means to have sex with the wife as well

the verse in Isaiah 13:15-16 is a prophecy of Isaiah regarding the destruction of Babylon by the Medes

Your point being what exactly?
That it wasn't inspired scripture?

Posted by RedeZra (here)

Posted by panopticon (here)
In regards to:

Posted by RedeZra (here)
the virgin who is betrothed unto an husband in Deuteronomy 22 has committed the sin of adultery

Your remark that a rape victim has committed a sin, I find ridiculous.
A knife to the throat, a hand over the mouth or simply being over powered and in fear for her life, leaves the rape victim faultless and from that without "sin".
I'm not certain, but I think you may be mixing up "a want to cry out" and "an ability to cry out".
In no way is the victim to be blamed.
Ever.
Sexual assault is not only about the act of rape, it is about the rapist exerting control and power over their victim. I have known women who have been assaulted and I find your assertions that the woman is at fault scandalous.
Your view/approach is unfortunately typical.

Posted by RedeZra (here)
it is not my view but the Old Testament law given by God of the OT to the Israelites
Christ gave the world the New Testament and so the Old Testament is over and done with

The above posts in this thread were not to do with the christian Jesus but to do with your initial statement 'the Will of God - the Father' and nothing else. The male personified god of the OT is the same one as in the NT (ie unchanging) and this is shown in Malachi 3:6 (UKJV) 'For I am the LORD, I change not'.

Are you saying that the 10 commandments are now defunct?

Posted by RedeZra (here)

Posted by panopticon (here)
What are your thoughts on placing a rape victim with their abuser after financially remunerating the family?

Remember that when the bible says 'you have humbled her' it is referring to rape.
Plain and clear, no confusion, your god says it is ok to rape a women under certain circumstances.

it is not referring to rape as the Israelite has to marry the woman before getting intimate with her

It is referring to it in Deuteronomy 22:29 (God's Word):

the man who had sexual intercourse with her must give the girl's father 1¼ pounds of silver, and she will become his wife. Since he raped her, he can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Again I ask, what are your thoughts on forcing a woman to stay with, and marry, her rapist?

Posted by RedeZra (here)
if it was up to me there would be no wars in the world no crime corruption nor rape
i would rule the world with a rod of iron

Thankfully you don't rule the world, though people like you did for many Centuries.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[Tarka the Duck]