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    Default Re: the Bible

    I don't want to get involved with the whole Bible as truth thing- but I haven't noticed anyone pointing out that the Bible is actually two books. (This could be because I haven't read EVERY word of every post, so sorry if this has been stated before).

    The first book, the Old Testament is a recording of rules of conduct and behaviour, some semi- historical events concerning a Bronze Age people, and a series of prophesies about the arrival of their Messiah. The second, The New Testament, contains the teachings of Jesus, who, according to those who believe, fulfilled (and still fulfils) those prophesies. He is the Messiah, he is called the Christ and he is the son of god who has chosen to become a man. His main purpose in doing that is to be able to promise eternal life through the sacrifice of his own life. People who follow Jesus Christ are (obviously) christians.

    The problem between the two books is that one was written for a nomadic people of the Bronze Age and has many things in it which jar our modern views of justice and decency. The second book, in which Jesus makes an appearance, is of much later origin and has many teachings that are very relevant to us today. So that could be why people posting here are worrying about the difference in the 'old' god and the 'new' one. They are in fact different, and this was solved by arriving at the notion of the Trinity- that is God the father, God the son (Jesus), and God the holy spirit.. Jesus held views which were so upsetting to the government of the time that they killed him. He was a good and brave man whose message was of kindness, peace and tolerance.

    Whether or not you believe he was in fact the son of god or not depends on your faith, but you have to wonder if his fate would be any different today1

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    Default Re: the Bible

    Quote Posted by Ellisa (here)
    I don't want to get involved with the whole Bible as truth thing- but I haven't noticed anyone pointing out that the Bible is actually two books. (This could be because I haven't read EVERY word of every post, so sorry if this has been stated before).

    The first book, the Old Testament is a recording of rules of conduct and behaviour, some semi- historical events concerning a Bronze Age people, and a series of prophesies about the arrival of their Messiah. The second, The New Testament, contains the teachings of Jesus, who, according to those who believe, fulfilled (and still fulfils) those prophesies. He is the Messiah, he is called the Christ and he is the son of god who has chosen to become a man. His main purpose in doing that is to be able to promise eternal life through the sacrifice of his own life. People who follow Jesus Christ are (obviously) christians.

    The problem between the two books is that one was written for a nomadic people of the Bronze Age and has many things in it which jar our modern views of justice and decency. The second book, in which Jesus makes an appearance, is of much later origin and has many teachings that are very relevant to us today. So that could be why people posting here are worrying about the difference in the 'old' god and the 'new' one. They are in fact different, and this was solved by arriving at the notion of the Trinity- that is God the father, God the son (Jesus), and God the holy spirit.. Jesus held views which were so upsetting to the government of the time that they killed him. He was a good and brave man whose message was of kindness, peace and tolerance.

    Whether or not you believe he was in fact the son of god or not depends on your faith, but you have to wonder if his fate would be any different today1
    It's not two books, it's 66 books divided in to two sections.........probably no coincidence that the number there is 66 either.





    People are so scared to believe in anything, for fear of being fooled, that they end up being fooled in to not believing.

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    Default Re: the Bible

    Quote Posted by pharoah21 (here)
    It's not two books, it's 66 books divided in to two sections.........probably no coincidence that the number there is 66 either.
    G'day pharoah21,

    I wasn't going to contribute to this thread further but just wanted to thank you.
    I can truthfully say this had never occurred to me.
    Thank you for pointing it out.

    Kind Regards,
    Panopticon
    "What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence.
    The only consequence is what we do."

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  7. Link to Post #144
    Avalon Member 58andfixed's Avatar
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    Default Re: the Bible

    Thanks for your input Ellisa, and yes, we've gone way past that most Bibles are divided up into two parts. There IS a lot of good material buried in this thread.

    So I encourage you to take some time, and get involved, because that's what most people are used to NOT doing --- as long as the garbage cans are emptied when one gets home from work, and people keep taking paper in exchange for goods, every "believes" they don't need to get "involved" with the JFK assassination, whether the FED is private or public, nor whether people want to believe whether any Bible is anywhere near as accurate as some purport it to be.

    I'm not Howard Beal, this isn't "Network," and I don't want anyone to get mad.

    People get to opt out of the difficulties of whether the Warren Commission was accurate and truthful, or whether the 9/11 Commission was accurate and truthful, or whether any Bible is accurate and truthful.

    It doesn't really directly involve anyone, or does it ?

    Everyone IS involved that breathes air on this planet. We are living the consequences of avoiding these issues -- just that because some people are not getting hit in the head with a tomato, these same people think everything is going to be like a Disney movie. In real life there is a limit to the number of castles.

    What we ignore now is coming back with consequences for our children, our children's children, and the friends of our children's children. We get to choose to ignore these events and issues.

    However, I DO care if someone want to be misled with false ideas. There are consequences everyone has to endure because of each of our biased ignorance.

    The same kind of thinking is showing up a voting booths to take part in elections.

    There IS something worth understanding, and it begins with the understanding that our collective choices comes back with consequences.

    I make my statements intended as encouragement to become less ignorant -- not perfect, or my way because of my little rant. Just less ignorant than this morning.

    I don't want to make threats. Threats don't work, just like pre-emptive action doesn't work.

    I don't find it my task to take out every stump that wants to stand in my way [and I'm writing in general terms -- so please don't take this personally -- this is meant more for those reading over our shoulders, just the opportunity offered by your post is an opportunity for a rebuttal for a host of fixed opinions on this thread] because there are plenty of minds digging for truth that are much more akin to soil well worth tilling.

    Mechanisms like Bibles divide people. Don't take my opinion for a fact. Apologist's own writings acknowledge over 33,000 denominations. That is evidence worth considering. How is it one supposed 'perfect, complete and accurate' book result in 33,000 denominations over 1,700 years ? Might there be a problem somewhere ?

    http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a106.htm



    The Facts and Stats on "33,000 Denominations"

    *****

    These are clues to the divisibility of humans.

    Acquiescence to divisibility is acquiescence to a continuation of at least what has transpired over the last 2,000 years, and more if you're willing to believe that.

    If anyone takes any thought from this thread, ponder on if there is any deeper or closer truth to the "divisibility of man" as you prepare to fall asleep.

    If the thought stays with you, there might be a nugget of truth to my observation.

    If this thought be one that bites deep enough to ignite more curiosity, then perhaps knowing why Bibles divide, just as why Politics divide, or any beliefs divide -- might be the beginning of a trip into the rabbit warren.

    One might come up with enough awareness to contribute to the preparation of the next generation for the coming changes.

    If the coming changes degrades into chaos, it's only because the captain at the helm has waited too long before preparing for the rocky shore that have always been in the same spot.

    It won't be much different than when voices were calling to the FED back in 2006 that there was a housing bubble, but Ben said not to worry -- he didn't see any bubble.

    Not seeing the bubble, didn't stop the 2009 implosion.

    Houston has a problem. We are hearing and seeing the creaking and the groaning. There is a connection between symptoms that are chasing people to occupy streets and mechanisms such as Bibles.

    There is something worth understanding.

    I'm gonna hop down from my tiny little soapbox, read the fliers for any special deals, and cut out some coupons now.

    If I need to come back and sweep up after any mess I've left behind -- please let me know, I wouldn't want to leave behind any uncrossed t's or undotted i's.

    Besides, maybe there could be a more fruitful perception, and I'd like to find out if perhaps maybe you did spend a little more time in the thread !

    - 58



    Quote Posted by Ellisa (here)
    I don't want to get involved with the whole Bible as truth thing- but I haven't noticed anyone pointing out that the Bible is actually two books.

    (This could be because I haven't read EVERY word of every post, so sorry if this has been stated before).
    Last edited by 58andfixed; 21st November 2011 at 21:28.

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  9. Link to Post #145
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    Default Re: the Bible

    whew this thread is pretty...."out there" ...just going through some of the messages i'm holding my breath (not in a good way). what i see here is similar to what my uncle and his brothers (including my dad) went through when he went to a different denomination. it's one of many reasons why i'm disillusioned to religion in general. he kept saying my new church was better than yours and you have to go through them, etc...it was seeing adults fighting like 5 year olds. it was insane.

    i mean i grew up going to cathecism school, read through the bible out of boredom (i honestly like the revelations, i don't know why), and learned that god loves all, yet religion itself is dividing people against people. i never took any theology class, but from my point of view, i feel that Christianity came from one book (and one country). Splitting to different kinds of Christianity baffles me. a few extra words are just the difference in the book. if not that, it's an updated, yet changed version of the one before. the other problem is that we also cannot agree to what the writings mean (which in turn splits into a different kind of Christianity). so for me, man messed up the books, messed up the true meanings of them, and also changed it to benefit them for their present time. (sorry there's a word here that i wanted to use instead of "messed up" i just can't think of it ) when you think of religion as a whole though, universally, there was a purpose for God to give us his teachings -- it was to spread the word about love. (well that's my understanding of it is. pardon me for having such a simplistic mind)

    this is why, if i'm going to pray, i will do it in my own house, at my own time. i've read the book and i got the understanding of what i needed to learn out of it, but i refuse to tell others to worship my god/lord just because it's better than theirs. in fact learning from one religion to another helps us open our eyes to what they are trying to teach as well. the problem is we interpret things different and this is where everything gets divided.

    to continue from my uncle -- when his mom (my grandma) passed, he refused to go to the church she went (and he used to go to), but i told and also asked him, "your own mother passed away. if you put religion aside, we're family. if you want to say something about religion, then didn't god say, 'honor your mother and father?' if that is so, please, do this for her." he showed up in that church at her funeral. in turn, to support him because it really feels like the whole family ostracized him, i went to his church. the only difference is there are no images (crosses, pictures, statues) and genders are sitting separate from each other. they are still preaching the same things in the catholic church we all went to.

    so if you knock at my door, i will say, "thank you for sharing; i hope you have a good day."

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    Default Re: the Bible

    Quote Posted by panopticon (here)
    Quote Posted by RedeZra (here)
    Urfa is also known as the birthplace of Job and not far from Göbekli Tepe Harran and Nevali Cori

    so it seems that this small area is the cradle of civilisation right after the Deluge
    G'day RedeZra,

    Interesting hypothesis, though I don't follow your logic.


    Again I will refer you to the excellent documentary series 58andfixed posted earlier in this thread:
    Quote Posted by 58andfixed (here)
    For those interested "The Bible Unearthed" contributes much to an understanding of the development of Bibles and Organized Religion.

    i don't spend so much time watching clips from the establishment but i will give it a peek


    the Flood was worldwide and devestating so much so that only 8 people survived it just some thousand years ago

    yes it is a hypothesis but since it is confirmed in the Bible then it must be true... just have to connect the dots and dig some more

    besides the Sumerians speak of the same a Flood and a time when the people spoke one language
    Last edited by RedeZra; 21st November 2011 at 13:21.

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    Default Re: the Bible

    Quote Posted by panopticon (here)
    Again I will refer you to the excellent documentary series 58andfixed posted earlier in this thread:
    Quote Posted by 58andfixed (here)
    For those interested "The Bible Unearthed" contributes much to an understanding of the development of Bibles and Organized Religion.

    1 of 4. The Patriarchs



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t440bxhn1qA


    i've just spent almost an agonizing hour watching the first episode of this docusoap

    in where the establishment tells us that the Bible must have been written in the Kingdom of Judah around 700 BC

    because camels were not domesticated before this time ?!


    this is not only an extremly weak argument... it's not even true


    http://www.bga.nl/en/articles/camel.html

    Quote Scholars hold different views about the time when domesticated camels first appeared on the scene. In the opinion of R. Bullet the taming of camels was practised even before 2500 B.C.3 According to F.E. Zeuner it started somewhere between 2900 and 1900 B.C.4 Both scholars thus think that domesticated camels occurred already before Abraham, whom we date at about 1900-1725 B.C.

    The oldest pieces of evidence about dromedaries being domesticated have been found in Umm an-Nar, a city on an island in the Persian Gulf off the coast of Oman. Here 200 bones and teeth of camels have been excavated together with objects dating back to about 2700 B.C

    The earliest evidence that Bactrian camels were domesticated originates from Shahr-i-Sokhta in the east of Iran. A jar filled with camel's dung and fragments of camel's hair, dating back to about 2500 B.C., has been discovered here.

    In 1977 archaeologist Edith Porada carried out a study of a cylindrical seal found in Syria; it shows two small figures riding on a two-humped animal, obviously a camel. The seal dates back to the 18th century B.C.

    Definite proof that dromedaries were already domesticated in early times was given in 1912. Near Aswan a rock painting was discovered which showed a man pulling along a dromedary on a rope, plus seven hieroglyphic characters. On account of the writing G. Möller dated the inscription to the period of the sixth dynasty (2320-2150 B.C.), and G. Schweinfurth concluded to the same period for the painting on account of its style.

    This find, which has not become widely known, presents conclusive evidence that Egypt had domesticated dromedaries as early as 2200 B.C. or even earlier, anyway long before the days of Abraham. The allegation of certain scholars that statements about camels in the book of Genesis are anachronisms only exposes their lack of knowledge.
    http://www.bga.nl/en/articles/camel.html

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    Default Re: the Bible

    Adam where are you ?

    i am naked and in hiding

    Who told you that you are naked ?






    an enlightened being like Ramana Maharshi roamed about butt naked in a spontanous carefree state like another baby child in a grown man's body before he eventually wrapped a rag around his hips

    and this attitude seems to be the thumb rule to these enlightened innocences

    who have overcome the carnal mind and are again established in the spiritual mind



    Adam and Eve in Eden were naked too til they ate of that one tree God told them not to eat

    how come of all the herbs and trees in the Garden they had to taste that one which God warned them about ?


    just one simple rule unto two free wills


    eat of every herb and tree in Eden but dont eat of that one tree in the midst of the Garden

    the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

    which will kill you



    some say God should never have planted that tree and all would be well

    and i believe that is true because let's face it


    God did test our first parents

    just a simple test of trust



    as parents we test our authority and as children we challenge it

    same with God and mankind

    today yesterday tomorrow


    God knows best and wants our best

    but we don't have to listen and we don't



    it's much more exiting to dance with the Devil and run with the wolves

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    Default Re: the Bible

    the Ark of Noah



    in the mountainous region north of Lake Van far East in Eastern Turkey beside the border of Iran and Armenia high above the sea

    is a big boat

    or the petrified remains of something shaped like a boat littered with myriads of metal rivets found to contain high-tech metal alloys such as titanium magnesium and aluminum



    http://www.adiyamanli.org/agri.html



    "Then the ark rested in the seventh month, the seventeenth day of the month, on the mountains of Ararat." - Genesis 8:4






    Noah's Ark National Park is located 10 km south of Mount Ararat at about 2000 m above sea level









    the Ark site is known as the Durupınar site after the Turkish Army Captain İlhan Durupınar who first identified the anomalous boat-shape in this area from Turkish Air Force aerial photos in 1959


    thnx to amateur explorer Ron Wyatt the Durupınar site is a thorn in the side to those that deny the validity of the Bible

    that would be the establishment and all the people they have fooled so far
    Last edited by RedeZra; 2nd December 2011 at 12:04.

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    Default Re: the Bible

    Babel



    since the Ark is in Ararat

    then some of the post-flood people came down from the mountains to the high saline Lake Van situated 1,640 m above sea level

    close to the Nemrut volcano which is named after Nimrod who is said to have ruled this area in about 2100 BC

    and would be the source of volcanic obsidian found at Hamoukar in northeastern Syria near the Iraqi border


    Hamoukar is a large archaeological site and the remains of one of the oldest known cities in the world where the archeologists have found five large stone ovens large enough to feed huge numbers of people on an institutional scale

    perhaps the ovens were also used to bake bricks for Babel which was situated in the plains of Shinar according to the Bible

    or the Sinjar plain as it is known today which houses Tell Hamoukar






    "And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar, and they dwelt there." - Genesis 11:2

    "Then they said to one another, "Come, let us make bricks and bake [them] thoroughly." They had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar." - Genesis 11:3

    "And they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top [is] in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth."" - Genesis 11:4



    Hamoukar is close to the city of Urfa which is the biblical city of Ur according to Turkish Muslim traditions from where Abraham traveled to Haran before entering Caanan or the Promised Land


    so Sumer and southern Mesopotamia rose to prominence after Babel and the scattering of nations

    but it all began again on the plains of Shinar in Syria

    the opposition to God and the allegiance to Satan




    http://www.essortment.com/hamoukar-w...ria-33559.html

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    Default Re: the Bible

    Red,

    do you think that anything survived that furnace in Alexandria`s library long time ago???

    Does Vatican keeps under lock a lot of hidden books of ancient science and Biblical texts or it`s just exaggerated?
    Love, love and see what happens!

    http://www.fromforgottenworld.com



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    Default Re: the Bible

    Quote Posted by Beren (here)
    Red,

    do you think that anything survived that furnace in Alexandria`s library long time ago???

    Does Vatican keeps under lock a lot of hidden books of ancient science and Biblical texts or it`s just exaggerated?
    hi Beren

    no i don't think papyrus scrolls survived the fire in the Library of Alexandria

    and according to info from wikipedia many of the scrolls seem to have been copies of originals

    besides Alexandria was not the only library in the ancient world as there was a contemporary Library of Pergamum in Turkey

    as there were also other libraries around about the ancient world

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_l..._ancient_world



    and no i don't think the Vatican has hidden books shelfed some place else than the secret archives which are no longer secret but open to researchers since 1881


    but i bet the Smithsonian Institution has secret artifacts stacked away from prying public eyes

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    Default Re: the Bible

    Quote Posted by RedeZra (here)
    Quote Posted by Beren (here)
    Red,

    do you think that anything survived that furnace in Alexandria`s library long time ago???

    Does Vatican keeps under lock a lot of hidden books of ancient science and Biblical texts or it`s just exaggerated?
    hi Beren

    no i don't think papyrus scrolls survived the fire in the Library of Alexandria

    and according to info from wikipedia many of the scrolls seem to have been copies of originals

    besides Alexandria was not the only library in the ancient world as there was a contemporary Library of Pergamum in Turkey

    as there were also other libraries around about the ancient world

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_l..._ancient_world



    and no i don't think the Vatican has hidden books shelfed some place else than the secret archives which are no longer secret but open to researchers since 1881


    but i bet the Smithsonian Institution has secret artifacts stacked away from prying public eyes

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    Default Re: the Bible

    Guess thats why "woman the life bearer was barely mentioned and continues today, besides I found the Urantia Book more true than King James's "version" royale when he was at war with the Vatican.

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    Default Re: the Bible

    Quote Posted by RedeZra (here)

    the Flood was worldwide and devestating so much so that only 8 people survived it just some thousand years ago

    yes it is a hypothesis but since it is confirmed in the Bible then it must be true... just have to connect the dots and dig some more

    besides the Sumerians speak of the same a Flood and a time when the people spoke one language
    I think Charles Weisman put together a very clear study showing why it's more tradition of men to defend this worldwide flood idea than proper study of the word. Here is an excellent study showing the fallacy of using the logic of applying the word "eretz" to be a worldwide flood.

    INTRODUCTION

    The Biblical story of Noah, the Ark and the Flood is perhaps the oldest and best known story that exists today. The great Deluge, commonly called "Noah's Flood," as recorded in Genesis 6, 7 & 8, has been a subject of intense controversy and debate. Much of this debate surrounds the scope and reality of the Biblical account. Some say it was a literal worldwide flood, others say it is merely an allegorical story. Certainly if the truth of this one subject were made evident many of the debates surrounding the Bible would no longer exist.

    During the nineteenth century, two doctrines gained strength and popularity among Christians regarding what the Bible says (1) That the earth and all that is on it is very young in age, and (2) that there was a worldwide flood that destroyed all life upon the earth except that which was in Noah's Ark.

    In support of these concepts there has developed a religious sect known as creationism, lead by those known as creationists. Creationism is based on Christian "fundamentalism" or "Judeo-Christian" theology, which many are now discovering to be a distorted Christianity (a mixture of the Bible and human precepts).

    Without either of these two concepts, the doctrine of creationism cannot stand and will quickly vanish from the minds of any rational person. It is the intent of this material to show that the idea of a worldwide flood is neither biblical, historical nor scientific. In this endeavour, we will need to examine exactly what is and is not being said today on this matter, and compare it to evidence derived from the Bible, science and history.


    THE FACE OF THE EARTH

    Here we will examine the Bible itself and see if the Bible really says what the literalists, fundamentalists, and creationists claim it says about a worldwide flood.

    From the reading of the Genesis account of the Flood in the English translation it would seem that it was worldwide in scope if we take the passages involved strictly literally. Various passages tell us that life was to be destroyed from the face of the "earth" (Gen. 7:12), the waters were on the face of the whole "earth" (Gen. 8:9), etc.

    When these passages were written it would be hard to believe they were made with the understanding of a global planet. We have to recall that it was not much more than 500 years ago that people believed the "earth" was flat.

    The word "earth" used in these passages of Genesis is the Hebrew word "erets" (Strong's O.T. #776). Erets does not actually carry any connotation of a global, spherical planet in its translation. While it has been translated as "earth" many times, it is also translated "country" 140 times, "land" 1,476 times, and "ground" 96 times in the Old Testament. In the various references to erets it can be shown it is most often used to infer a limited land area rather than the entire planet.

    The people living at the time of Moses had no concept of our global planet as we do today. The earth or erets to them would have been the extent of the geographical land area that they knew existed. It thus would not mean the planet, and to apply this literal meaning throughout the Bible causes some real and obvious problems.

    For example, when Cain was cursed by God, he was driven "from the face of the earth" (Gen. 4:14). Yet it is clear that he remained "in the earth" as a fugitive. Cain was driven out of a limited land area, not from the planet.

    After God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah one of Lot's daughters stated, "there is not a man in the earth (erets) to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth (erets)" (Gen. 19:31). She could not have meant that there were no men anywhere on planet earth for we know that there obviously were. Rather, she was saying that "there is not a man in erets" or in the land area they were in (the area of Sodom) for they were all destroyed there.

    When God had told Abraham, "Get thee out of thy country (erets) ... unto a land (erets) that I will show thee" (Gen. 12:1), He did not mean for Abraham to leave the earth and go to another earth or planet. The word 'erets' was referring to a limited land area just as it was in Genesis 7:10—"the waters of the flood were upon the erets" or upon the land.

    Creationists have arrogantly quoted Genesis 8:9 ("for the waters were on the face of the whole earth") and stated that it obviously means a global flood. As the creationist Dr. Morris states:

    It almost seems frivolous to try to show that the Bible teaches a worldwide Flood. This fact is obvious in the mere reading of Genesis 6:9 and one who does not see it there will hardly be influenced by other reasoning.1

    Perhaps the most common error made in understanding the Scriptures is allowing inconsistencies to exist in the underlying principles it teaches. Creationists are no exception to this problem and such statements as that above clearly reveal their lack of Biblical study and understanding. Their aim is to support tradition over Scripture. In doing so, they allow a misinterpretation of a verse to contradict other verses.

    In the Bible the word 'erets' rarely means the planet earth. For instance, during the plagues upon Egypt we read that "the rain was not poured upon the earth [erets]" (Exodus 9:33). Everyone understands erets here to mean only a local land area—the land of Egypt. Why, then, in reading in Genesis that "the waters of the flood were upon the earth [erets]" or that "the rain was upon the earth [erets]” (Gen. 7:10, 12) should we assume the whole planet is meant? The rain that fell on the earth at the time of the Flood was also confined to a local land area.

    In Exodus 10, verses 5 through 15, we read of a plague of locusts in Egypt:

    5 And they shall cover the face of the earth [erets], that one cannot be able to see the earth [erets].

    15 For they covered the face of the whole earth [erets] …through all the land [erets] of Egypt.

    Again it should be evident that this locust plague covered only the limited land of Egypt, as shown in verse 15, and also in verse 14 which states "the locusts went up over all the land (erets) of Egypt." Why, then, should any insist that when it says the flood waters "were on the face of the whole earth (erets)" in Genesis 8:9, it must mean the waters were of a worldwide scale? It is the same wording used in both cases and interpreting erets to mean a limited land area maintains consistency in such verses.

    At the time when Joseph was in Egypt there existed a "famine over all the face of the earth [erets]" (Gen. 41:56). Was there a famine in Greenland, in the tropics of Africa and South America, in Antarctica, in the Hawaiian Islands? There is no evidence of a global famine at this period of time. However, there was a famine in all the lands that had contact with Egypt at that time. Because of the famine the Bible states "all countries [erets] came to Egypt—to buy corn" (Gen. 41:57). Certainly the Eskimos and Polynesians never came to Egypt.

    Erets is often used in the plural in many instances (Gen. 10:5, Lev. 26:36, Ezra 9:7, 2 Kings 19:11). If erets meant the planet earth, then all planets suffered from the famine and came to Egypt to buy corn! To have erets mean the planet earth makes the entire context an absurdity! The plurality has a limited rather than universal meaning.

    Likewise, when we read about "all the hills" being covered or "all flesh" destroyed, it is referring to "all" that existed in the "whole" land or erets where the Flood was, not all that were on the planet earth. When God spoke of destroying "all flesh," He said he "will destroy them with the earth" (Gen. 6:13). The planet earth was not destroyed nor were all flesh on the planet, only that flesh and land (erets) where Noah lived was destroyed. The words "all," "whole" and "every" are not to be taken in a universal context. If they are then it can be said that all the hills on all the other planets were flooded.

    After the Israelites had been delivered from Egypt and settled in Canaan, they were described in Scripture as "a people… which covereth the face of the earth [erets]" (Num. 22:5, 11). Not even creationists could say that Israelites covered every square foot of the earth's surface both land and sea. Yet the Bible says so! Does it not? The Israelites did not cover the planet only the expanse of land, or erets, where they were then dwelling.

    When such events were originally written, whether it be of the Flood or the locust plague in Egypt, the land area they transpired in was the centre of attention and encompassed the total scope of intent and field of understanding. In this context a local affair or event can appear to have a universal meaning. Once this is understood, the entire account of the Genesis Flood, as well as these other events mentioned, make sense and become very credible and in line with history and science.

    Jeremiah once spoke of a flood overflowing the erets, and though he used "flood" to figuratively describe an invading army, it provides an interesting comparison:

    Thus says the LORD; Behold, waters rise up out of the north, and shall be an overflowing flood, and shall overflow the land [erets], and all that is therein; the city, and them that dwell therein; then the men shall cry, and all the inhabitants of the land [erets] shall howl (Jer. 47:1-2).

    If the word 'erets' in this passage were translated "earth" as it was in Genesis 7, it would sound like a universal flood. It thus could read - "an overflowing flood shall overflow the earth ... and all the inhabitants of the earth.” This sounds worldwide in scope but we know it was a flood covering only the land [erets] of the Philistines!

    We find many instances in the Bible where it speaks of "the earth," or "the face of the earth" in which it clearly refers to a limited land area or country. When we thus read the Genesis account of the Flood, the erets should be read as "land" as a more meaningful and correct expression - "And the flood was forty days upon the land" (Gen. 7:17), "And the water prevailed exceedingly upon the land" (Gen. 7:19), etc. The waters of the Flood prevailed upon the "land" in which Noah lived and not the entire planet.

    from http://www.orange-street-church.org/text/noah-flood.htm

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    Australia Avalon Member panopticon's Avatar
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    Default Re: the Bible

    Quote Posted by RedeZra (here)

    i've just spent almost an agonizing hour watching the first episode of this docusoap
    in where the establishment tells us that the Bible must have been written in the Kingdom of Judah around 700 BC
    because camels were not domesticated before this time ?!
    this is not only an extremly weak argument... it's not even true

    http://www.bga.nl/en/articles/camel.html
    G'day All,
    I have been away for a couple of weeks on walk about but thought I'd reply to the above as I had redirected RedeZra to the documentary series in question.
    Just to clarify:
    • The documentary does not rest its case on a 3 minute section about camels.
    • It relies on archaeological evidence from diggings in the Megiddo region that tell the story of a groups valour and courage in the first millennium BCE.
    • It tells how they created a culture and a history for themselves.
    It is an amazing story and I truly enjoy learning about it.

    In regards to the quoted text from the BGA (who state 'The Bible is the true Word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit. This holds equally for all historical accounts the Bible gives us')...
    There was some selective editing in the quotes:
    Quote Posted by RedeZra (here)
    In 1977 archaeologist Edith Porada carried out a study of a cylindrical seal found in Syria; it shows two small figures riding on a two-humped animal, obviously a camel. The seal dates back to the 18th century B.C.
    From the website:
    Quote In 1977 archaeologist Edith Porada carried out a study of a cylindrical seal found in Syria; it shows two small figures riding on a two-humped animal, obviously a camel. The seal dates back to the 18th century B.C. The small figures most probably depict a god and a goddess. This could point to the use of domesticated camels in that period; however it could also mean that the camel was known as a wild animal on which only gods were able to ride.
    Here is a picture of the cylinder seal mentioned:


    I actually am familiar with the evidence to do with camels in that period following a study into the problems of feral camels in Australia.
    I would direct those who are interested to 'The Archaeology of Animals' By Simon Davis, in particular the section on domestication and use of camels in the period and region we were discussing. It's only short (about 2 pages) and available here:
    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...page&q&f=false

    At no time did I expect to ever be able to use this knowledge on camels for anything, ever...

    So to clarify.
    It is my understanding that there is insufficient evidence to be certain, or not, as to whether camels were domesticated in the period and region mentioned. This in turn means that I must agree with RedeZra and say that there is evidence that they were used. There is some evidence that camels were domesticated for carting goods by traders as far back as the second millennium BCE, though the evidence to say that they were used by the people of the 'Southern Kingdom of Juda' or the 'Northern Kingdom of Israel' is, as far as I know, inconclusive. It is quite well known that camels were probably not used by the Egyptians until the 6th Century BCE.

    I would like to thank RedeZra for taking the time to watch the documentary.
    Kind Regards,
    Panopticon
    "What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence.
    The only consequence is what we do."

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    Default Re: the Bible

    Not been following this debate and sorry to butt in like this but when RedeZra says:
    'high-tech metal alloys such as titanium magnesium and aluminum'

    I would just like to point out that titanium, magnesium and aluminum are three elements appearing in the periodic table. They may or may not have required high tech mining, but they are definitely not alloys.
    "Love in this part of the world is no sinecure". Lord Byron

    FREE ENERGY NOW !

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    Default Re: the Bible

    Quote Posted by Unified Serenity (here)
    Quote Posted by RedeZra (here)

    the Flood was worldwide and devestating so much so that only 8 people survived it just some thousand years ago
    Certainly if the truth of this one subject were made evident many of the debates surrounding the Bible would no longer exist.
    if the Bible says so then it is so... and you can take that to God


    and furthermore most of us will perish not knowing what hit us just like in the days of Noah when the waters came and swept everything away

    we have no idea how deeply we have been decived and we will probably never know before it's too late

    when the fire comes and burns everything


    it is an exercise in futility to try to disprove the Bible by using the Bible

    the Book is bombastic with no space for subjective speculations regarding the universality of the Flood

    everybody drowned just some 4000 years ago except 8 people and the animals in the Ark


    So Yahweh said, "I will destroy man [adam] whom I have created from the face of the earth [adamah], both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

    But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
    - Genesis 6:7-8


    "And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth [erets], to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which [is] the breath of life; everything that [is] on the earth shall die.

    "But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall go into the ark--you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you.
    - Genesis 6:17-18

    So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground [adamah] : both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth [erets]. Only Noah and those who [were] with him in the ark remained [alive]. - Genesis 7:23


    "who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while [the] ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water." - 1 Peter 3:20



    the scientific speculations about our origins and history is just crap

    and they know it the Controllers know it's all BS but they are the Controllers with a mission to control us

    and so they must keep piling up BS and decorate it with crap so we will buy it


    the Bible is the only Book that is faithful and true because God is behind it

    and if we buy the BS about God being pink plysh puppy love then we just let ourselves be fooled again


    God will kill us

    just like that and there is nothing we can do about it because God is the Creator while we are just creatures

    get over it and accept it and be decent and serene and perhaps

    just perhaps maybe i would not hold my breath God will spare us


    God does not tolerate evil and neither do i

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    Default Re: the Bible

    Okay so i may possibly regret getting into this thread.

    1) Because i do not claim to be an authority on the bible and its content - heaven forbid someone using the bible to disprove my argument.

    2) Usually one cannot argue with a fundamentalist.

    Just a few observations;

    the scientific speculations about our origins and history is just crap

    A speculation at the very least offers a theory about some kind of fact based on evidence. Or in other words a hypothesis, a potential theory that is subject to change according to available evidence.

    is just crap - that is a conclusion based on what evidence?

    if the Bible says so then it is so...

    Okay sorry my mistake.

    and they know it the Controllers know it's all BS but they are the Controllers with a mission to control us

    and so they must keep piling up BS and decorate it with crap so we will buy it -

    If i wanted to control people id write a book and tell the people that all other books were crap, and that you needed this book. Last time i heard the bible was still on the worlds best seller list.

    the Bible is the only Book that is faithful and true because God is behind it

    I heard many popular authors use ghost writers these days. So who really wrote it? Or did the numerous editors over the years tailor it to serve the agenda of the day. Much evidence points to this fact.

    and if we buy the BS about God being pink plysh puppy love then we just let ourselves be fooled again

    Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1 John 4.8

    There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. We love because he first loved us. 1 John 14-18

    Oh sorry im using the bible again to make a point which is an exercise in futility?

    Or was it "if the Bible says so then it is so " I must be getting confused.

    Just for the record im not attacking the bible or christianity or anything like that, its just some of your arguments are very weak and reliant on a fundamental literal interpretation of the bible, and you seem unable to even entertain the possibility of any other opinion or possibility that reality may exist.

    With love

    Bob

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