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Thread: This is how you deal with officials who try to intimidate you

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    Default This is how you deal with officials who try to intimidate you

    We all know the crap that the TSA put people through at the airports, right avalonuggets?
    What if they couldn't actually DO anything to you?

    13 November 2010
    TSA encounter at SAN

    [These events took place roughly between 5:30 and 6:30 AM, November 13th in Terminal 2 of the San Diego International Airport. I'm writing this approximately 2 1/2 hours after the events transpired, and they are correct to the best of my recollection. I will admit to being particularly fuzzy on the exact order of events when dealing with the agents after getting my ticket refunded; however, all of the events described did occur.

    I had my phone recording audio and video of much of these events. It can be viewed below.

    Please spread this story as far and wide as possible. I will make no claims to copyright or otherwise.]

    This morning, I tried to fly out of San Diego International Airport but was refused by the TSA. I had been somewhat prepared for this eventuality. I have been reading about the millimeter wave and backscatter x-ray machines and the possible harm to health as well as the vivid pictures they create of people's naked bodies. Not wanting to go through them, I had done my research on the TSA's website prior to traveling to see if SAN had them. From all indications, they did not. When I arrived at the security line, I found that the TSA's website was out of date. SAN does in fact utilize backscatter x-ray machines.

    I made my way through the line toward the first line of "defense": the TSA ID checker. This agent looked over my boarding pass, looked over my ID, looked at me and then back at my ID. After that, he waved me through. SAN is still operating metal detectors, so I walked over to one of the lines for them. After removing my shoes and making my way toward the metal detector, the person in front of me in line was pulled out to go through the backscatter machine. After asking what it was and being told, he opted out. This left the machine free, and before I could go through the metal detector, I was pulled out of line to go through the backscatter machine. When asked, I half-chuckled and said, "I don't think so." At this point, I was informed that I would be subject to a pat down, and I waited for another agent.

    A male agent (it was a female who had directed me to the backscatter machine in the first place), came and waited for me to get my bags and then directed me over to the far corner of the area for screening. After setting my things on a table, he turned to me and began to explain that he was going to do a "standard" pat down. (I thought to myself, "great, not one of those gropings like I've been reading about".) After he described, the pat down, I realized that he intended to touch my groin. After he finished his description but before he started the pat down, I looked him straight in the eye and said, "if you touch my junk, I'll have you arrested." He, a bit taken aback, informed me that he would have to involve his supervisor because of my comment.

    We both stood there for no more than probably two minutes before a female TSA agent (apparently, the supervisor) arrived. She described to me that because I had opted out of the backscatter screening, I would now be patted down, and that involved running hands up the inside of my legs until they felt my groin. I stated that I would not allow myself to be subject to a molestation as a condition of getting on my flight. The supervisor informed me that it was a standard administrative security check and that they were authorized to do it. I repeated that I felt what they were doing was a sexual assault, and that if they were anyone but the government, the act would be illegal. I believe that I was then informed that if I did not submit to the inspection, I would not be getting on my flight. I again stated that I thought the search was illegal. I told her that I would be willing to submit to a walk through the metal detector as over 80% of the rest of the people were doing, but I would not be groped. The supervisor, then offered to go get her supervisor.

    I took a seat in a tiny metal chair next to the table with my belongings and waited. While waiting, I asked the original agent (who was supposed to do the pat down) if he had many people opt out to which he replied, none (or almost none, I don't remember exactly). He said that I gave up a lot of rights when I bought my ticket. I replied that the government took them away after September 11th. There was silence until the next supervisor arrived. A few minutes later, the female agent/supervisor arrived with a man in a suit (not a uniform). He gave me a business card identifying him as David Silva, Transportation Security Manager, San Diego International Airport. At this point, more TSA agents as well as what I assume was a local police officer arrived on the scene and surrounded the area where I was being detained. The female supervisor explained the situation to Mr. Silva. After some quick back and forth (that I didn't understand/hear), I could overhear Mr. Silva say something to the effect of, "then escort him from the airport." I again offered to submit to the metal detector, and my father-in-law, who was near by also tried to plead for some reasonableness on the TSA's part.

    The female supervisor took my ID at this point and began taking some kind of report with which I cooperated. Once she had finished, I asked if I could put my shoes back on. I was allowed to put my shoes back on and gather my belongs. I asked, "are we done here" (it was clear at this point that I was going to be escorted out), and the local police officer said, "follow me". I followed him around the side of the screening area and back out to the ticketing area. I said apologized to him for the hassle, to which he replied that it was not a problem.

    I made my way over to the American Airlines counter, explained the situation, and asked if my ticket could be refunded. The woman behind the counter furiously typed away for about 30 seconds before letting me know that she would need a supervisor. She went to the other end of the counter. When she returned, she informed me that the ticket was non-refundable, but that she was still trying to find a supervisor. After a few more minutes, she was able to refund my ticket. I told her that I had previously had a bad experience with American Airlines and had sworn never to fly with them again (I rationalized this trip since my father-in-law had paid for the ticket), but that after her helpfulness, I would once again be willing to use their carrier again.

    At this point, I thought it was all over. I began to make my way to the stairs to exit the airport, when I was approached by another man in slacks and a sport coat. He was accompanied by the officer that had escorted me to the ticketing area and Mr. Silva. He informed me that I could not leave the airport. He said that once I start the screening in the secure area, I could not leave until it was completed. Having left the area, he stated, I would be subject to a civil suit and a $10,000 fine. I asked him if he was also going to fine the 6 TSA agents and the local police officer who escorted me from the secure area. After all, I did exactly what I was told. He said that they didn't know the rules, and that he would deal with them later. They would not be subject to civil penalties. I then pointed to Mr. Silva and asked if he would be subject to any penalties. He is the agents' supervisor, and he directed them to escort me out. The man informed me that Mr. Silva was new and he would not be subject to penalties, either. He again asserted the necessity that I return to the screening area. When I asked why, he explained that I may have an incendiary device and whether or not that was true needed to be determined. I told him that I would submit to a walk through the metal detector, but that was it; I would not be groped. He told me that their procedures are on their website, and therefore, I was fully informed before I entered the airport; I had implicitly agreed to whatever screening they deemed appropriate. I told him that San Diego was not listed on the TSA's website as an airport using Advanced Imaging Technology, and I believed that I would only be subject to the metal detector. He replied that he was not a webmaster, and I asked then why he was referring me to the TSA's website if he didn't know anything about it. I again refused to re-enter the screening area.

    The man asked me to stay put while he walked off to confer with the officer and Mr. Silva. They went about 20 feet away and began talking amongst themselves while I waited. I couldn't over hear anything, but I got the impression that the police officer was recounting his version of the events that had transpired in the screening area (my initial refusal to be patted down). After a few minutes, I asked loudly across the distance if I was free to leave. The man dismissively held up a finger and said, "hold on". I waited. After another minute or so, he returned and asked for my name. I asked why he needed it, and reminded him that the female supervisor/agent had already taken a report. He said that he was trying to be friendly and help me out. I asked to what end. He reminded me that I could be sued civilly and face a $10,000 fine and that my cooperation could help mitigate the penalties I was facing. I replied that he already had my information in the report that was taken and I asked if I was free to leave. I reminded him that he was now illegally detaining me and that I would not be subject to screening as a condition of leaving the airport. He told me that he was only trying to help (I should note that his demeanor never suggested that he was trying to help. I was clearly being interrogated.), and that no one was forcing me to stay. I asked if tried to leave if he would have the officer arrest me. He again said that no one was forcing me to stay. I looked him in the eye, and said, "then I'm leaving". He replied, "then we'll bring a civil suit against you", to which I said, "you bring that suit" and walked out of the airport.

    This video starts with my bag and belongings going through the x-ray machine.They're kind of long, and they don't show much, but the audio is really good.



    http://johnnyedge.blogspot.com/2010/...y-between.html

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    England Avalon Member mahalall's Avatar
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    Default Re: This is how you deal with officials who try to intimidate you


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    Default Re: This is how you deal with officials who try to intimidate you

    u sir....are a lord

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    Default Re: This is how you deal with officials who try to intimidate you

    Lord I applaud your courage and determination to stand up for yourself, and in turn for all of us.
    For that you have my deepest gratitude, for making a dent in this crazy system. We will bring it down, one dent at a time.

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    Default Re: This is how you deal with officials who try to intimidate you

    Shame you had to go through this because as I understand it, TSA scanners are banned in Europe due to potential health issues. Although you were forced off your flight, and luckily refunded due to the consideration shown by the carrier, you now might face a legal problem and a 10K fine.

    I hope that they do not proceed against you as you maintained what I see are your Human rights not to be assaulted but who knows if the authorities will consider this as mitigating circumstances, should a case arise.

    If they do prosecute then I suppose a human rights representation might help you out, though I think you and others have gone through enough already what with not flying, and the point about your willingness to be subjected to a metal detector scan should have been accepted at that moment.

    My concern is whether you or anyone else who takes this line of approach will now be 'marked', and will have problems every time you use any airport, which I hope is not the case.

    I wonder if these measures are designed to ensure the herd is kept from flying in order to minimize the number of people using air transport, but threat is just a personal hunch.

    Be thee careful, for there may be repercussions that go beyond this incident.

    Golden Nugget

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    Default Re: This is how you deal with officials who try to intimidate you

    Lord Sidious, outstanding for sure.
    "If you touch my junk i will have you arrested", excellant line.
    That bunch of toy cops just didn,t know what to do when one man that knows his rights stands up to there intimidation.
    It was nice to see the tables turned on thier personal little power trips.

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    Default Re: This is how you deal with officials who try to intimidate you

    Erm, that isn't me on that video.
    You can tell that because he is very patient.

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    Default Re: This is how you deal with officials who try to intimidate you

    Oops, sorry Sid, i did wonder to myself how you could keep your cool like that.

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    Default Re: This is how you deal with officials who try to intimidate you

    The real question is, did they file the suit?
    Before enlightenment, chop wood; carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood; carry water. -Zen Proverb

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    Default Re: This is how you deal with officials who try to intimidate you

    If that was me, there would have been lots of bad words, threats and people being called out on their threats.
    If you avalonuggets were ever with me when someone starts me up, you would have a heart attack.
    I have had that in the past, where people freak out and think we are going to get arrested.
    You name it, I have been in a ruckus there.
    The airport, the courthouse, the police station, out in the streets, by the side of the road.
    Anytime someone tries to stand over me, it is on.
    It seems they realise that here now, so they mainly leave me alone.
    Some of my ruckus are legendary now.
    There is one assistant state solicitor for the state of western australia that tries to avoid me. When he sees me, he gets the shakes.
    True story.

    Quote Posted by Aryslan (here)
    The real question is, did they file the suit?
    Good question, to which I don't know the answer, sorry.
    I might fish around a bit later on.

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    Default Re: This is how you deal with officials who try to intimidate you

    Haha, wow Sid, that sounds epic! If I ever get around to Ozz in my travels I'll have to hang around with you for a few days to pick up some pointers.

    On topic: It seems that a lot of what these goons use are empty threats to scare you into compliance. As long as you know your rights, and the law, you stand a chance.
    Before enlightenment, chop wood; carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood; carry water. -Zen Proverb

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    Default Re: This is how you deal with officials who try to intimidate you

    Quote Posted by Aryslan (here)
    Haha, wow Sid, that sounds epic! If I ever get around to Ozz in my travels I'll have to hang around with you for a few days to pick up some pointers.

    On topic: It seems that a lot of what these goons use are empty threats to scare you into compliance. As long as you know your rights, and the law, you stand a chance.
    I respond very poorly to threats.
    Dunno how many cops I have dared to do what they threaten.
    When they don't, there may be an allegation of compensating for micropenis disorder.

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    Default Re: This is how you deal with officials who try to intimidate you

    Sorry L Sid, I thought it was you who had defended yourself, but regardless, my points remain, anyone who goes through this and refuses to cooperate will be noted in some huge database and thought it seems an isolated incident, it might rear it's ugly head in future.

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    Default Re: This is how you deal with officials who try to intimidate you

    Quote Posted by 1derer (here)
    Sorry L Sid, I thought it was you who had defended yourself, but regardless, my points remain, anyone who goes through this and refuses to cooperate will be noted in some huge database and thought it seems an isolated incident, it might rear it's ugly head in future.
    No worries nugget.
    I am already on several lists, I don't care how many more.

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    Default Re: This is how you deal with officials who try to intimidate you

    Recently while flying out of Manchester airport to Turkey I was on my way through the metal detector and was pulled to one side to go through the pervert booth. I spoke to the spotty teenager to explain the health risks associated with such apparatus and declined the instruction. To my wife's amazement I was uber calm, but decisive. I was taken to a small room where a male attendant came in and asked me I would consent to a manual search. I, like the chap in the film explained that I would consent, but would appreciate them not touching my genitals in the search. The chap looked at me, agreed and continued. His hands came very close, but as his word, he stayed clear. After the search he asked me to drop my trousers / jeans. I asked why, he claimed it was to look at the waistband of my underwear. I agreed and he sheepishly ran his fingers around the waistband only of my grundies. He was more than happy with the search, looked embarrassed and apologised. Once dressed he escorted me to the metal detector and asked me to walk through. Once through, he apologised again and allowed me to go on my way.

    A chap in the departure lounge asked me what happened, I told him and he never knew he could decline the procedure. If more and more know what to do then these machines will be removed, especially in the ruling of them causing health risks now been proven.
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    Default Re: This is how you deal with officials who try to intimidate you

    I'm off to Hawaii in March, stopping off in LA. I always seem to get hassle at airports. I've even been patted down whist in my honeymoon outfit with confetti still in my hair! So should be interesting. I'm not so feisty as Lord Sid though and I'm wondering how far I'll be willing to go to make a point. I'll be travelling with my Hubby and a business partner, both have their eyes wide shut!! So no moral support there!
    Looking in your eyes~kind of heaven eyes

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    Default Re: This is how you deal with officials who try to intimidate you

    Quote Posted by 1derer (here)
    Sorry L Sid, I thought it was you who had defended yourself, but regardless, my points remain, anyone who goes through this and refuses to cooperate will be noted in some huge database and thought it seems an isolated incident, it might rear it's ugly head in future.
    I described an incident in another thread when I called the police to help me when I was being violently attacked and my property was being destroyed. Later that night, the police threatened to lock me up. I know why. About 27 years ago, my psycho-bitch-from-hell partner was pissed off at me for arriving home two hours late after Tae Kwon Do training, so she made up a story that I "tampered with" (sexually assaulted) our two year old daughter. After six months of me being treated like the world's worst criminal, my ex admitted that she made it all up just to hurt me. The man-hating gubment employees said "oh, that was a bit naughty" and giggled. Long story short, I was never charged and nothing happened after the admission.

    The point of this story is that I have since found out that the accusation is still on the police data base but there is no mention of the admission of it being invented by a vindictive bitch. Yes, she did hurt me at the time and it has hurt me several times since. Talk about presumption of guilt regardless of the (un-recorded) evidence to the contrary.

    Now a question for Rob. Do you have any ideas about how I could get the desk nazis to remove that false information from the LEAP database?
    Last edited by Cjay; 26th November 2011 at 08:25.
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    Default Re: This is how you deal with officials who try to intimidate you

    That was enjoyable Sidious, 'good show mate'.

    I love it how these guys have no procedure to follow. It also surprises me that people are such cattle that they never question anything they're told. It doesn't need to be legal, it just needs to be intimidating. And that dick with the civil suit was lying. I'm very surprised he thought he could scare you with that. That could have been very long and expensive and embarrassing for them.

    I don't think it would take a great many enraged people to get those scanners out of American airports. Do we have a few enraged people yet? Evidently not.

    C'mon folks, get in line right here, through that corral and up onto the ramp. At the end of the ramp step up to the stanchion and put your head in it. Don't look up, and don't pay any attention to the guy with the big hammer.

    You gave up a lot of your rights when you bought that ticket.
    “Out beyond ideas of right doing and wrong doing there is a field. I'll meet you there.”
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    Default Re: This is how you deal with officials who try to intimidate you

    Ohhhhh Yeh~~~~~
    it's great to see people starting to question rather than obey and believe the suits are there to "help"

    you ain't done anything wrong, you have the right to stand up and raise the voice and say NO!
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    Last edited by cheez_2806; 26th November 2011 at 08:59.

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    Default Re: This is how you deal with officials who try to intimidate you

    I agree, to a point. Now bearing in mind that I am, or rather was (Retired due to ill health) an Airline Pilot I must remind you all that these things are put in place to protect you. How would you feel if your son or daughter or other loved one got on a flight where some psycho used the same tactics you are talking about here to avoid the security and blew the plane to hell killing your loved ones?
    Now having said that, I totally agree that the problem is the attitude of the security Gestapo. I too every time I went to work had to go through the same procedure and believe me the spotty yobs you refer to absolutely delight in patting down and groping a captain in full uniform to humiliate and belittle because they are jealous that they are not a pilot, and unlike a lot of you I had to go through it several times a day at every airport I flew into and every day of the week and every week of the year.
    But I just kept saying to myself, these people are keeping my aircraft and the people on it safe.

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