Jesus Christ May Not Have Died on Cross

[panopticon]

G'day kreagle,

Thanks for the response.

Before anything else I thought I should let you know that I am not offended by the various texts of the Bible. I regard the OT as the writings of a heroic people creating a history for themselves in a dangerous and desolate region. I say this so you know I am not "anti-bible", as this seemed to be the underlying sentiment of your post and rhetoric in response to me.

From my perspective the New Testament is not "His words". Anyone is free to believe that if they choose and I would never dream of telling anyone to believe anything else as their faith is their faith and absolutely nothing to do with me (or anyone else for that matter). To me the NT was written roughly between 70 CE and 100 CE (maybe add a decade or two on the top side for some NT texts) and many of the texts chosen for inclusion are of unknown authorship (even though some are attributed to various "apostles") and are of dubious accuracy. The validity of the OT as a source reference is equally problematic. I am not attacking the various texts here, merely stating the facts as I see them. To use these texts to verify and give validity to your position is circular reasoning that does not assist your position, in my view, and only reinforces dogma. I try to look at the surrounding events, in the region and time discussed, while I form a position from a number of different sources (if possible). This is why I said that '[b]y repeatedly quoting near on meaningless statements from the Iron Age as "evidence", or "proof", you do nothing for your position.'

Your use of the Babylonian/Sumerian deluge story (the origin of the Noah flood story) is a case in point. It has not proven your argument, from my position it only weakens it. There is evidence of a regionally isolated flood, in all likelihood caused by an outburst flooding event, but of the world wide deluge story there is no evidence. Please refer to the Bible thread for information regards my position on this if interested.

It is reasonable, for me anyway, to assume that the early Jews did much the same thing as the Romans (in a later period) by adopting various pre-existing stories in their creation of an epic historical account of their origins. This is not "fringe" thinking but quite an acceptable position on the Tanakh's origins. When they created their history they adapted the stories that they understood to create an homogeneous group while reinforcing their cultural and social distinctiveness from those around them.

There is some contention, however, generally it is thought that the 'Epic of Gilgamesh' was either taken from, or influenced by, the Akkadian 'Epic of Atra-Hasis'.
So in creating their own history the ancient Israelites (ie those from the 'Southern Kingdom of Juda' and the 'Northern Kingdom of Israel') made use of these traditional stories, as they had learnt them, while only changing them from a polytheist context to a monotheist one. To me this also explains why there are periodic inconsistencies in the use of the plural form in reference to YHWH. Of course this is far from conclusive evidence, regards to the use of the plural form, as the consonant based Hebrew causes difficulty and the Greek is possibly adjusted to reflect Hellenistic understandings, speech and thought patterns of the 3rd and 2nd Centuries BCE.

Posted by kreagle (here)
Just because there has been,...to this point....the "absence of Judgement",....does not invariably mean that there is "Judgement that will remain absent".

So are you saying here that just because every previous prediction was wrong that it is just a matter of time?
If that is your position then I agree. Eventually the Earth will be destroyed in a cataclysm. That is something you can count on.
Whether an asteroid hits (like the one that killed the dinosaurs), a mega-volcano erupts (similar to that which caused the mass deaths on the Indian peninsular around 74,000 BP), the Sun expands and destroys the Earth (billions of years from now) or any other number of possible cataclysmic events the earth will not be suitable for human life at some time in the future.

The reason I introduced the possibility of Jesus being a mytho-historical character was to draw attention to the position that if there was no Jesus, there was no crucifixion for him to die from.

I look forward to your response.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[RedeZra]

Posted by panopticon (here)
To me the NT was written roughly between 70 CE and 100 CE (maybe add a decade or two on the top side for some NT texts) and many of the texts chosen for inclusion are of unknown authorship (even though some are attributed to various "apostles") and are of dubious accuracy.

let us not forget that it is only in these last 200 years

that the historicity of Jesus has been put into doubt


nobody questioned if Jesus walked the earth for 1800 years

until a french philosopher started to philosophise or mind masturbate

about maybe Jesus did not actually exist


there is no mention in the NT about the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 AD

so the NT was probably written before 70 AD by the Apostles themselves


if the NT is right then Satan is the brain and backbone behind the governments

and we all know that he doesn't exactly fancy Jesus

[jorr lundstrom]

Posted by RedeZra (here)

Posted by panopticon (here)
To me the NT was written roughly between 70 CE and 100 CE (maybe add a decade or two on the top side for some NT texts) and many of the texts chosen for inclusion are of unknown authorship (even though some are attributed to various "apostles") and are of dubious accuracy.

let us not forget that it is only in these last 200 years

that the historicity of Jesus has been put into doubt


nobody questioned if Jesus walked the earth for 1800 years

until a french philosopher started to philosophise or mind masturbate

about maybe Jesus did not actually exist


there is no mention in the NT about the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 AD

so the NT was probably written before 70 AD by the Apostles themselves


if the NT is right then Satan is the brain and backbone behind the governments

and we all know that he doesn't exactly fancy Jesus

So you do mean that a lot of ppl being executed for that reason wasnt even guilty
of questioning the existence of a Jesus?

I do think it still was dangerous 200 years ago to question the existence of a Jesus,
but today I hope the inquisition has come to an end, or?

If this guy you claim you talk about need ppl to fancy him, may I suggest Facebook.
Ive heard one can get a lot of friends over there.


Jorr

[RedeZra]

Posted by jorr lundstrom (here)
If this guy you claim you talk about need ppl to fancy him, may I suggest Facebook.
Ive heard one can get a lot of friends over there.

Satan would not want His profile on facebook

so Jesus would have to sign up in another Name with another AV


if the Inquisition had been competent then Satan would not be so strong today

as it is Satan is the power behind the governments

educating us into his image


the upside-down version of truths

which will make us miss the mark

and perhaps perish ?!


the Inquisition of old was soft

not like our soldiers of today

[araucaria]

Posted by RedeZra (here)
[

if the Inquisition had been competent then Satan would not be so strong today

as it is Satan is the power behind the governments

educating us into his image

(snip)

the Inquisition of old was soft

not like our soldiers of today

yeah, and God bless the military who are doing such a wonderful job...

There's got to be a forum rule about this sort of nonsense

[panopticon]

Posted by RedeZra (here)

Posted by panopticon (here)
To me the NT was written roughly between 70 CE and 100 CE (maybe add a decade or two on the top side for some NT texts) and many of the texts chosen for inclusion are of unknown authorship (even though some are attributed to various "apostles") and are of dubious accuracy.

let us not forget that it is only in these last 200 years
that the historicity of Jesus has been put into doubt
nobody questioned if Jesus walked the earth for 1800 years
until a french philosopher started to philosophise or mind masturbate
about maybe Jesus did not actually exist
there is no mention in the NT about the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 AD
so the NT was probably written before 70 AD by the Apostles themselves
if the NT is right then Satan is the brain and backbone behind the governments
and we all know that he doesn't exactly fancy Jesus

G'day RedeZra,

Jorr beat me to responding regards the power and control exerted by the Roman Catholic Church for the past 1700 years of its existence. With the centralisation of control under Constantine in the 4th Century, and associated persecution of "heretics" from that period until the Enlightenment, there was little chance for anyone to question the central tenets of the oppressors. In 1633 Galileo was forced to say the earth didn't move around the sun under threat of imprisonment at the hands of the inquisition. We all know how understanding those guys were! This would have been the equivalent of a death sentence if he hadn't recanted.

In regards to the authorship dates of the New Testament's texts, I am of the opinion that they were written roughly between 70 CE and 100 CE. The lack of a reference to the destruction of the 2nd temple in 70 CE is often used as a reason to date the texts earlier but I am not convinced by this. Yes, it is a good argument but one that relies on the texts not being written in a retrospective fashion looking back to a heroic time before the destruction of the temple. I am not alone and there are many biblical scholars that date the texts to the later period, just as there are many who date some of them to a decade earlier (ie 60 CE - 100 CE) which fits somewhere near what seems to be your dating.

Unfortunately it is impossible to know for certain regards a ten year difference from 2000 years ago so I reckon that once again we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

My point is that, for me at least, there is the possibility that Jesus (as we know him today) never existed, but was constructed so as to create a rallying point after the defeat of the messianic Jewish Sects that were the instigators of the Zealot led rebellion (66-70 CE). That is one reason why I lean more to the later dates (in particular to do with the 4 Gospels which many scholars date to a post 70 CE time frame).
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[kreagle]

Posted by panopticon (here)
G'day kreagle,

Thanks for the response.

Before anything else I thought I should let you know that I am not offended by the various texts of the Bible. I regard the OT as the writings of a heroic people creating a history for themselves in a dangerous and desolate region. I say this so you know I am not "anti-bible", as this seemed to be the underlying sentiment of your post and rhetoric in response to me.

From my perspective the New Testament is not "His words". Anyone is free to believe that if they choose and I would never dream of telling anyone to believe anything else as their faith is their faith and absolutely nothing to do with me (or anyone else for that matter). To me the NT was written roughly between 70 CE and 100 CE (maybe add a decade or two on the top side for some NT texts) and many of the texts chosen for inclusion are of unknown authorship (even though some are attributed to various "apostles") and are of dubious accuracy. The validity of the OT as a source reference is equally problematic. I am not attacking the various texts here, merely stating the facts as I see them. To use these texts to verify and give validity to your position is circular reasoning that does not assist your position, in my view, and only reinforces dogma. I try to look at the surrounding events, in the region and time discussed, while I form a position from a number of different sources (if possible). This is why I said that '[b]y repeatedly quoting near on meaningless statements from the Iron Age as "evidence", or "proof", you do nothing for your position.'

Your use of the Babylonian/Sumerian deluge story (the origin of the Noah flood story) is a case in point. It has not proven your argument, from my position it only weakens it. There is evidence of a regionally isolated flood, in all likelihood caused by an outburst flooding event, but of the world wide deluge story there is no evidence. Please refer to the Bible thread for information regards my position on this if interested.

It is reasonable, for me anyway, to assume that the early Jews did much the same thing as the Romans (in a later period) by adopting various pre-existing stories in their creation of an epic historical account of their origins. This is not "fringe" thinking but quite an acceptable position on the Tanakh's origins. When they created their history they adapted the stories that they understood to create an homogeneous group while reinforcing their cultural and social distinctiveness from those around them.

There is some contention, however, generally it is thought that the 'Epic of Gilgamesh' was either taken from, or influenced by, the Akkadian 'Epic of Atra-Hasis'.
So in creating their own history the ancient Israelites (ie those from the 'Southern Kingdom of Juda' and the 'Northern Kingdom of Israel') made use of these traditional stories, as they had learnt them, while only changing them from a polytheist context to a monotheist one. To me this also explains why there are periodic inconsistencies in the use of the plural form in reference to YHWH. Of course this is far from conclusive evidence, regards to the use of the plural form, as the consonant based Hebrew causes difficulty and the Greek is possibly adjusted to reflect Hellenistic understandings, speech and thought patterns of the 3rd and 2nd Centuries BCE.

Posted by kreagle (here)
Just because there has been,...to this point....the "absence of Judgement",....does not invariably mean that there is "Judgement that will remain absent".

So are you saying here that just because every previous prediction was wrong that it is just a matter of time?
If that is your position then I agree. Eventually the Earth will be destroyed in a cataclysm. That is something you can count on.
Whether an asteroid hits (like the one that killed the dinosaurs), a mega-volcano erupts (similar to that which caused the mass deaths on the Indian peninsular around 74,000 BP), the Sun expands and destroys the Earth (billions of years from now) or any other number of possible cataclysmic events the earth will not be suitable for human life at some time in the future.

The reason I introduced the possibility of Jesus being a mytho-historical character was to draw attention to the position that if there was no Jesus, there was no crucifixion for him to die from.

I look forward to your response.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

Panopticon, Even though there is quite a start difference between our own personal "chosen belief systems", I want to personally thank you for your civil tone and response. I, too, am not "offended",....but rather that I am "greatly concerned" because of the various opinions rendered here. Eternity matters!,....and the decisions we all make now affect our individual eternal destinies!!!

You may have noticed that I "highlighted" your quoted dates above with the usage of CE, (the Common Era), and BCE, (before the Common Era). This, of course, is commonly used by those who wish to "remove the reference to Christianity" in our dating system, where B.C., (before Christ) and A.D., (Latin for anno Domini or "the year of our Lord", are more readily recognized and used.) My greatest fear, in this, is that when one "removes" certain aspects of any given equation,.....the answer and the "outcome" also are radically changed, causing great sorrow and anguish, at a later date, for "that which has been removed!"

You see,....Peter's "manner of speech" was a clear indicator that he was "with Jesus",....just as your "manner of speech" is equally a clear indicator that you are currently not. You have questions and doubts concerning the validity of God's Word, and that is certainly your right to do so, if that's the direction you choose.

Matthew 26:73
King James Version (KJV)

73And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.

You question, among many other things, the validity of a "global flood" and state that there's no proof. If you simply "Google"........."scientific proof of Noah's flood",.....you will find plenty of references in support of this global flooding event,....and yes,.....you will also find support that it was not a global flooding event. It's just according to what "expert" you want to side with and believe.

As for me,....you might have guessed it already,.....

Genesis 7:20
King James Version (KJV)

20Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

And

Psalm 104:6
King James Version (KJV)

6Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.

Panopticon, I feel it is necessary to say, at this point, that I will be more than happy to address "every point" or "question" that you have brought up in your post,...if you would like for me to.

I would like to provide a link to an earlier "Avalon" post I made in reference to the "original Church" that some of you may have not seen or read in the past. It will surely disclose my "personal" revelation to the Gospel Message that our Lord is trying to divulge to all of us.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...228#post361228

Peace and Love to all,.....kreagle

[panopticon]

G'day kreagle,

Thank you for the response.

I am somewhat confused as to what your point is in your above post.
You have added no extra evidence or information.
Please be aware that I rarely read repeated bible quotations so there is little point in highlighting them or using them as part of your argument in a discussion with me.
Also, to be clear, colouring text for emphasis does not improve your argument.

I would ask that you don't be concerned for my well being as I am fine and very happy. I would hate you to lose sleep over me so don't be worried.
I am also fine to discuss anything with you that relates to the thread we are presently contributing to, however I would point out that I will participate in conversation and not in conversion.

In relation to the various flood myths I would again suggest you visit the Bible thread and read my position at your leisure as it is not "on topic" with this thread.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[RedeZra]

Posted by araucaria (here)

Posted by RedeZra (here)
[

if the Inquisition had been competent then Satan would not be so strong today

as it is Satan is the power behind the governments

educating us into his image

(snip)

the Inquisition of old was soft

not like our soldiers of today

yeah, and God bless the military who are doing such a wonderful job...

There's got to be a forum rule about this sort of nonsense

modern man has been molded in the image of Satan so much so it is almost impossible to break free from his ideologies

we think we are educated but we are indoctrinated

it is high time to see the diabolical force behind our governments

the great State or Sate

[RedeZra]

Posted by panopticon (here)
Jorr beat me to responding regards the power and control exerted by the Roman Catholic Church for the past 1700 years of its existence.

there has been a struggle between the Church and European nation states since the Investiture Controversy before the Crusades

Holy Roman Emperors went to war against the Pope and Henry VIII of England even broke with Rome dissolved the monasteries and confiscated properties of the Church

so the power and influence of the Catholic Church has been steadily declining for a thousand years

and today the Church is infested by masons with the agenda to undermine and subvert it

so the struggle between Church and State has seen the rise of Satan and the fall of Christ in the minds of men

Satan is at his pinnacle of power playing the world like a game of chess

Posted by panopticon (here)
My point is that, for me at least, there is the possibility that Jesus (as we know him today) never existed, but was constructed so as to create a rallying point after the defeat of the messianic Jewish Sects that were the instigators of the Zealot led rebellion (66-70 CE).

if we rely soly on our own intellect and investigative abilities to come to a conclusion

then there is the danger that the intellect is not that sharp and the research is not that good

and so we arrive at a wrong conclusion and stubbornly defend it


again there are millions of testimonies about the living reality of Jesus and we simply cannot ignore that

[panopticon]

G'day RedeZra,

Posted by RedeZra (here)
there has been a struggle between the Church and European nation states since the Investiture Controversy before the Crusades
Holy Roman Emperors went to war against the Pope and Henry VIII of England even broke with Rome dissolved the monasteries and confiscated properties of the Church
so the power and influence of the Catholic Church has been steadily declining for a thousand years

Excellent point! May it continue to decline and allow humanity to grow beyond bronze age and iron age dogma so there is never a repeat of the Galileo situation. Where I am concerned is in the rise of conservative Christianity and fundamentalism of all flavours in challenge to reason and rationality. While the discourses revolve around an "end time" there is always the risk of someone trying to make it happen.

Posted by RedeZra (here)
if we rely soly on our own intellect and investigative abilities to come to a conclusion
then there is the danger that the intellect is not that sharp and the research is not that good
and so we arrive at a wrong conclusion and stubbornly defend it

I have noticed that you do stubbornly defend your position.
If we don't question dogma than we may end back in the dark ages.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[kreagle]

Posted by panopticon (here)
G'day kreagle,

Thank you for the response.

I am somewhat confused as to what your point is in your above post.
You have added no extra evidence or information.
Please be aware that I rarely read repeated bible quotations so there is little point in highlighting them or using them as part of your argument in a discussion with me.
Also, to be clear, colouring text for emphasis does not improve your argument.

I would ask that you don't be concerned for my well being as I am fine and very happy. I would hate you to lose sleep over me so don't be worried.
I am also fine to discuss anything with you that relates to the thread we are presently contributing to, however I would point out that I will participate in conversation and not in conversion.

In relation to the various flood myths I would again suggest you visit the Bible thread and read my position at your leisure as it is not "on topic" with this thread.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

Panopticon, You say you are confused as to what my point is,....but I can assure you that I am not confused at all, for I know "exactly" what is going on in this thread,....and so do "you".

The problem or "confusion" comes in to play when it has become clear that I am not playing by the "same set of rules" that the "game" began with.

The "game" began with the following blatant statement:Re: Jesus Christ May Not Have Died on Cross Consequently it appears that you only want to "play this game" with non-Christians who would not dare challenge you on this topic.

You continue to challenge me to "prove my point",....but you don't care for the "evidence" that I provide with my faith in God or the usage of the Scriptures that you "rarely read",..(your quote).

The "real reason" for posts of this nature invariably begin in an "attempt to tear down and disprove" what God has already established and set in motion,....and that, my friend,....is His Word

No doubt, this has been attempted by many intellectuals down through the ages of time,....but when the dust settles,.....His Word is "still there, just as strong as it has ever been!

Psalm 119:89
King James Version (KJV)

89For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

You see, to those who don't try to ridicule and tear down His Word, it eventually becomes a priority to "deal with it" and to reach out and accept this Wonderful Savior and the abundant life He promises.

John 10:10
King James Version (KJV)

10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

I know you don't care for my "highlights",...."colors",......and certainly not the "quoting of Scriptures",.....but in that "vein of thought",......have you stopped and noticed just how may "events around us" are being "highlighted" everyday?

World economies collapsing?,......Constant Wars, (on the verge of WWIII),......Increased Volcanic activity,.......Increased Earthquake activity,....Weather Patterns worsening,......Health problems, (cancer,etc.), escalating?,.....

Who do you think is "highlighting" these events for us all to see? Yes, it's all in His Word,....and I won't quote it here,....because you already know it's there,....don't you!

In conclusion, you might find it comforting to know that I haven't lost a wink of sleep over you,....however I do find it hard to sleep sometimes, in that I worry over the "lost sheep" who are "looking for their Shepherd!"

With the Best of Regards and Intentions,.... kreagle

[panopticon]

G'day kreagle,

Wow.

I didn't start this thread and only contributed to it so as to point out that there is a possibility that the messianic christ figure (Jesus) may have been a construct of the defeated messianic/apocalyptic Jews in 70 CE following the destruction of the 2nd Temple by the Roman forces in response to the failed Jewish/Zealot rebellion (66 CE - 70 CE). I admit that this is a contentious issue and can understand why you view this as a personal attack and/or an attack on your personal faith. I can do nothing about that other than apologise as that was not my intent. I am uncertain as to why you think I am not interested in talking to Christians as I regularly have very civil chats with Christian friends of mine (pastors, reverends and priests have been among them over the years) in regards to this very issue. BTW, the OP is not saying that Jesus wasn't killed and rose again, merely that the choice of implement may have not been a cross. My post may well have been out of context with the thread and I only posted so as to put across an alternate dialogue. There was no offence intended to "believers".

The reason I don't usually read bible quotes is that they are often used as a form of sermonisation that I have absolutely no interest in. That having been said if it upsets you so much use them to your hearts content and I shall read them all so as to be able to give a reasoned and informed reply. Same goes for "highlighting" text with colour and bold text. I was only trying to ask you to be thoughtful as the colour etc makes it difficult for me to read and I have to copy it to a note pad and it does nothing to improve your position, in relation to a discussion with me, as when I copy it to a notepad for reading all the formatting, that takes time for you to do, is removed. I should have been clearer about this in my previous post. Whatever is your preference in this matter.

Also, just to be absolutely clear. I don't play games with people. If I say I don't understand your point, I mean I don't understand your point and/or would like further clarification so as to be able to continue the discourse without misunderstanding. Your diatribe has done neither and only confused me further. It appears you are trying to draw me into a debate on scripture. While this may be wonderful for you, it would be a pain in the backside for me as I am quite busy and would need to take time out to research something that is not high on my to-do list. If you are not able to participate in a discourse without repeated reference to scripture, I would have to research the related documentation and my concordance and then respond as time permits. As this is not a forum on Bible studies I see no reason why I should do so.

I also am not trying to 'ridicule and tear down His word'. I have a different understanding of the origins of the texts in question and while yours is based on an inerrant faith in it as 'His word' (please clarify if this is not the case), mine is based on a variety of ancient documents and cultural practices/references used to research and deconstruction the texts in question. This is not implying that you have not done research or deconstruction of the various texts, rather that you pre-suppose that the Bible is without error, while I do not. I think you have faith that the Bible, in its entirety, is the true word of YHWH (again, please clarify if this is not the case) while I view that the OT is a collection of quasi-historical texts written by a heroic people in the construction of a culture and a distinct social identity and that the NT was possibly largely written during the period following the destruction of the 2nd Temple so as to rally the defeated Jewish people and Gentile converts.

I look forward with trepidation to your response...
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[The One]

This video is a pre­sen­ta­tion of the evi­dence for the exis­tence of Jesus. It uses only non -​ bi­blical sources and goes th­rough the skep­tical ar­gu­ments for each claim. It will be sur­pri­sing for some to see how much evi­dence for the his­to­ri­city of Jesus there ac­tu­ally is, in fact there is more evi­dence for Jesus' exis­tence, as you will see, than there is for most of the pro­mi­nent fi­gures in an­cient his­tory. Note: Wat­ching this video will take away your abi­lity to claim ho­nestly that Jesus was a myth

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vklf2u31FRE

[panopticon]

Posted by The One (here)
This video is a pre­sen­ta­tion of the evi­dence for the exis­tence of Jesus. It uses only non -​ bi­blical sources and goes th­rough the skep­tical ar­gu­ments for each claim. It will be sur­pri­sing for some to see how much evi­dence for the his­to­ri­city of Jesus there ac­tu­ally is, in fact there is more evi­dence for Jesus' exis­tence, as you will see, than there is for most of the pro­mi­nent fi­gures in an­cient his­tory. Note: Wat­ching this video will take away your abi­lity to claim ho­nestly that Jesus was a myt

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vklf2u31FRE

G'day The One,

I am familiar with this documentary and presented it in the Bible thread.
I will re-watch it but don't recall there being any incontrovertible proof in it...
I have said a number of times in this forum that the only reason I think that there may have been an historical Jesus (possibly a wandering preacher) is because of the gnostic texts found at Nag Hammadi (commonly referred to as the 'Nag Hammadi Library' or 'The Lost Gospels').
A link to the texts is here:
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html

In particular the 'Gospel of Thomas' appears to be a copy of an earlier document, or oral tradition, that may pre-date the 70 CE time frame I referenced.
This is not me saying this, about the 'Gospel of Thomas', but quite main stream thinking on the subject. Of course there are also those who date it as late as the 2nd Century. There in lies the problem.
The 'Gospel of Mary' is dated, I think at earliest, to 120 CE and contains some of the miracle stories (the resurrection from memory is mentioned).

It should also be remembered that the 'Gospel of Thomas' does not have any of the miracle stories. This also matches with the creation of the mytho-historic christ figure hypothesis.

Any further information/evidence is welcomed as I am more than happy to be proven wrong. I've looked at translations of much of the source material from the period and have found no conclusive evidence.

It makes not an iota of difference to me, one way or the other, and would save me time researching something that is incorrect.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

Addendum:
I've always liked this verse from the GOT:

(113) His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"
<Jesus said,> "It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be a matter of saying 'here it is' or 'there it is.' Rather, the kingdom of the father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it."

[Kindred]

A news item I just received from Message to Eagle news...
Unknown Energy Source Created Image on Turin Shroud:

http://www.messagetoeagle.com/shroud...nt=Yahoo!+Mail

Now... for further 'evidence', I'll provide this Bible verse:

Quote John 8:23:
“And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.”

I will suggest that if you wish to Know the reason for both of these items, simply read Thiaoouba Prophecy. It WILL challenge Much of what you believe about our world, and both it's past history and our current 'status'.

Moreover, you will learn the Truth about the life of Jesus... and Much more.

free pdf file of the book: http://www.lanuovaumanita.net/files/tp-typeset.pdf

In Unity, Peace and LOVE

[RedeZra]

Posted by Kindred (here)

I will suggest that if you wish to Know the reason for both of these items, simply read Thiaoouba Prophecy. It WILL challenge Much of what you believe about our world, and both it's past history and our current 'status'.

Moreover, you will learn the Truth about the life of Jesus... and Much more.

the truth about Jesus is in the Book about Jesus my one eyed friend

Jesus who is God has protected the Bible

so everybody could learn the truth and seek Him

[Kindred]

Posted by RedeZra (here)
the truth about Jesus is in the Book about Jesus my one eyed friend

Jesus who is God has protected the Bible

so everybody could learn the truth and seek Him

How interesting. I offer another source of knowledge about a significant religious figure, and you choose to use an obtuse denigration of an avatar to suggest a negative inference to this information...

Just the same, I feel I must point out that the Bible has been manipulated by those who seek domination over humanity. It is no coincidence that All of these religions are run by old men in expensive and fancy robes whose sole purpose is to seek Lots of Money, along with power and control of the masses. Note that the Only time Jesus got angry was when he threw the money changers from the temple. He Knew the Horrors of such Addictions. Yet, All religions, without fail, covet and hoard Money, along with the power and influence that comes with it.
(a side note... the Vatican Owns most of the satellites that monitor the Sun... there is a Reason for this... these people Know something, and they aren't telling us)

Jesus certainly did exist... just not in the fashion that is told to us. He was capable of Extraordinarily Miraculous Accomplishments - True Miracles - at least to Our eyes. He was capable of these things For A Reason; He was a Master In Nature, and Understood the Truth, the Methods and the Means of Spirituality along with the connection to Source/God that All Life Has. He Strove to show humanity that We Too are Immortal - as long as we Dedicated our lives to the Development of our Spirit and sought to live in Peace and Harmony, both with each other, and Nature. His Purpose was as a Messenger.

I repeat: Quote John 8:23:
“And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.”

But the Bible, as it was written, re-written, interpreted and edited though the ages, has been distorted in so many ways. Some parts are missing completely. In an attempt to rectify these manipulations, and 'set the record straight', Thiaoouba Prophecy was 'commissioned' by those who sent Jesus, who were his brethren.

You, and everyone else, has Free Will, and may choose to Accept or Ignore the Knowledge that this book provides. But, to suggest it is Not worthy of consideration is Denying said Free Will of any who seek such knowledge.

I am as dedicated to Free Will, as is Source/God. Are you?

In Unity, Peace and LOVE

[RedeZra]

Posted by Kindred (here)

Posted by RedeZra (here)
the truth about Jesus is in the Book about Jesus my one eyed friend

Jesus who is God has protected the Bible

so everybody could learn the truth and seek Him

But the Bible, as it was written, re-written, interpreted and edited though the ages, has been distorted in so many ways. Some parts are missing completely. In an attempt to rectify these manipulations, and 'set the record straight', Thiaoouba Prophecy was 'commissioned' by those who sent Jesus, who were his brethren.

if Jesus is God

in a world governed by devils

then it takes God to protect anything


the question is if God is able to preserve His words to us

[Kindred]

Posted by RedeZra (here)

the question is if God is able to preserve His words to us

'He' (Source/God) is able to protect / Project Life... not words. Words are what We use to communicate, and thus We control them - if we so choose. We have Free Will to do what we wish with the words. 'He' does Not need words to truly communicate to us, and one need only meditate to Connect with the "Word" that 'He' 'speaks to us'.

"The Word" is All Creation.

The Greatest Temple of Man, is Within Himself... NOT Without. Look Inward to Find Source and it's Truth in The Word. Be At One with All Creation, and seek not it's domination, but embrace it in Love and Respect.

We are not 'devils'... nor are those that seek to repress humanity. Some Act like 'devils', but that is simply the duality of this density, and is a result of the Free Will that is given to All.

The ego accounts for the terrible actions we see taking place, and this adoration of the ego is what is responsible for the atrocities we witness. The ego knows only that which is without, and Not what is Within. This is why we need to look inward, and See the Love that has been given to All, by Source.

In Unity, Peace and LOVE