Destroy your Higher Self or Source!

[Vivek]

Once again, great thread. This is my idea of a great discussion!

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
Because your Higher Self and Source is still your ego!

It is a cover story.

“I don't need a guide, I will go on my own sweet way...I'll go happily round in circles....and I'm going to take as many others as I can with me...let's go!...follow meeeee!”

That is precisely why you are here: you are lost!

Oh I forgot, you chose to come here .... to do what?

An idea has infiltrated this and other forums, to trust YOUR inner instincts, YOUR intuition, because that is YOUR higher self...rubbish!
How sure are you that YOUR intuitions and instincts originated from “you”?

This higher self is merely your ego, clinging to its self-identity still.
It is still all about ME!!!
Ideas are put out there, to make you feel it's going to be alright - you have arrived, so no more searching! You do not have to be aware of anything...just be ...just snooze ..zz...zzz....zzzz...zzzzzzzzz!

...

When learning anything, we follow the same process of going step by step.

Through a method, we start at the beginning and work through the stages.
Once we understand, we find confidence and real freedom,
so that when something is not working, we know how to put it right.

The method of meditation is the same.
To say one does not have to learn anything is a misdirection.
Yes, you are “that which you seek” - but there is a lot more to it than just those words.
You wouldn't say that to an enlightened being...unless you wanted to make them laugh!

Agreed, we transition to this frame of thought but it changes nothing. We arrive at the bottom of the staircase and say, "Ah ha! I've found the answer!", and we stay at the bottom (maybe taking a few steps here and there). I believe complacency is the word I'd use to describe it.

I'd like to share a story.

Sri Ramakrishna taught, "always go forward." The world of religion is infinite. Sri Ramakrishna used to tell the story of the woodcutter and the holy man.
A woodcutter had long been working in a particular area of the forest. One day a holy man came that way and told him "Go forward." So he decided to go further into the forest. As a result, he discovered a sandalwood forest. He was very happy, as the sandalwood fetched him a lot more money than the other wood. He worked for a while in that area, but one day he remembered the holy man's words, "Go forward." He again went deeper into the forest and found a silver-mine He make a huge amount of money from it, but he did not stop there. After some time, he went further on and found a gold-mine. Again he went forward and discovered a mine of diamonds. He thus became richer and richer.

What Sri Ramakrishna meant was that we should keep going on and on in our spiritual pursuit. It is as if we are climbing the Himalayas.
We keep climbing higher and higher till we have reached the highest peak. We shouldn't be content with anything less than the highest and the best - this was his advice. How disappointed he would be if he found someone mistaking one of the lower peaks for the highest. He wanted us to keep pressing forward all the time. Let's suppose we've discovered a silver mine. But why should we stop there? Why not find a gold-mine, and even a diamond-mine? Let us go on and on, never thinking we've reached the goal. Going forward will be our goal.

(Source)

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
We have to learn to unlearn.
To uncover the layers of self deception.
It is not that difficult, but our habitual patterning keeps getting in the way.
That is why it is wise to follow a system to undo the knots, and so find freedom.

I would say we have to unlearn to learn. (EDIT: I re-read this part, and I see now that's what you were saying—ah wordplay)

Ideas and thoughts bind us to our relative perspectives. They keep us grounded in our ego-mind. I think that it is a tool though; not to be destroyed, but transformed in order to undergo transmutation from little self to Self.

To quote Annie Besant:

It is this wondrous nature of the Self, who is evolving in us through knowledge at the present time, that we have to study, in order to understand the nature of thought, and it is necessary to see clearly the illusory side in order that we may utilize the illusion to transcend it. So let us now study how Knowing - the relation between the Knower and the Known - is established, and this will lead us to see more clearly into the nature of thought.

Again, I know this, but I don't truly understand it until I experience it fully. It remains an idea and I fall prey to the complacency that I (and yourself) previously described.

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
Of course, the ego wants to do its own thing, and say, “I am already free!”
This is merely a conceptual freedom. We are still clinging to the concept of “I” am “something”.
It is the same old habit that keeps the noose around our necks.

Once you have a sound method, you will find total confidence.
Finding total confidence means there is nothing to ever be defended.
No one can ever pull the wool over your eyes again...or the noose around your neck!

I completely agree. The ego is very clever.

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
To uncover the truth you really do have to take yourself apart. When you have realised Emptiness, then there is nothing more.

Very Zen of you, I like it.

Posted by greybeard (here)
All belief systems identification must go.
I am a spiritual seeker--- I am a Christian--- I am a Buddhist.
Anything that has "I am" in front of it is miss-identification.

There isn't even a path because that gives the impression that I am the doer.

However the paradox is that, it seems that first you must seek enlightenment as a Divine inspired obsession then to learn that giving up the search may be the answer.
Wishing every-One the best of luck with their own way of finding the "One Truth."
(as I wish my very own self)
Ramesh said "God gave you an ego let Him remove it"
That "resonates" with me ----laughing hysterically,

Chris

You know what, I love you guys.

Again, I would like to quote Annie Besant:

The Thinker, having learned clearly to discriminate between objects by dwelling upon their unlikenesses, now begins to group them together by some attribute which appears in a number of objects otherwise dissimilar and makes a link between them. He draws out, abstracts, his common attribute, and sets all objects that possess it apart from the rest which are without it; and in this way he evolves the power of recognizing identity amid diversity, a step toward the much later recognition of the One underlying the many.

I agree Chris, they must go. They are merely a stepping stone to be used in order to progress, but they often become fly paper for most (myself included).

[Vivek]

Posted by Jenci (here)
So who is going to destroy this ego?

Jeanette

I think (there's that damn word again) it more about transmogrification at this point in the process. The ego is ultimately destined for dissolution. Therefore at this point, "destroy" carries a connotation that leaves you struggling/fighting with yourself (it's counterproductive). It is easy to fall into complacency too with this mindset though. It's a slippery slope—damn slippery. That's why it's best to adhere to a method (mystical/religious or what have you), like Tony said. Many have achieved this before...

Here's a quote from Joseph Campbell (if you haven't noticed yet, I love quotes ) that has some bearing here about the process of methodology and apotheosis:

Furthermore, we have not even to risk the adventure alone, for the heroes of all time have gone before us. The labyrinth is thoroughly known. We have only to follow the thread of the hero path, and where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god. And where we had thought to slay another, we shall slay ourselves. Where we had thought to travel outward, we will come to the center of our own existence. And where we had thought to be alone, we will be with all the world.

He says slay, similar to destroy. You say potato, I say tomato...

[Tarka the Duck]

Transmogrification?? Is that really a word???!!
Does it have something to do with stray cats??!

[Jenci]

Posted by greybeard (here)
The traditional way was to have an enlightened teacher of a proven linage.
I suspect the process has sped up greatly with new energy coming into the world.
Baically that is because the Totality wants that.
There are no accidents.

Chris.

I believe so, too. No accidents.
Jeanette

[pie'n'eal]

Ode to the Crutch.

If I am not too strong, my crutch helps me.
It is something to lean on when I am tired.
When I was young, I did not think I needed the help of a crutch,
But now I am older, it aids me when I wobble.

How to view the crutch, or backup system.

As a Vajrayana student, one uses the aid of deities such as Avalokteshvara (the lord of Compassion)
and Vajrakiliya (Protector) to enhance one's practice. It is an aid during the death process,
to view all appearances as a projection of one's mind.
They are also a source of inspiration to recognise one's true nature and essence.

But it is a backup system, to be used when the nature of mind gets cloudy due to lazy practice.
At death, one maybe grateful of a belt and braces approach!

It could be a little embarrassing meeting Yamataka (the lord of Death), with one's trousers around one's ankles...due to being stubborn in one's attitude.

Ego is consciousness clinging to an idea. It stubbornly grasps at anything that comes to pass.
When this very same consciousness looks in at its own nature, in an unmodified way,
it find that it is pure empty essence, unfabricated. All you have to do is look...for your-self....and nothing is found...then you have arrived!

Ego does not need to be destroyed, just tamed. We however can destroy the illusions.

(Goodness! I love this forum when its firing on all cylinders!!!)

[Vivek]

Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)
Transmogrification?? Is that really a word???!!
Does it have something to do with stray cats??!

Yes (not to do with stray cats though)! I found it in the "Acknowledgments" section in Radix (by A.A. Atttanasio). I had to look it up at the time and it just stuck with me. It's a quaint little word, fun to say.

P.S. I was digging for the book where I found that word just now and I noticed something. The book is dedicated to "Lightworkers, across time and space". Very cool.

[pie'n'eal]

Dear Sebastion,

I have been on spiritual paths for over forty years and have been grateful for every nuance of teaching. One can spend much time, studying, reflecting and meditating on a simple sentence.

My journey started with much anger and frustration at the world, thinking, “There has to be more to life than this?”

If one is practising for ones own enlightenment, life is quite simple, the practice is quite simple.
But if one wishes to benefit others, much study, reflection and meditation is needed.


I always have a feeling of unfinished business, and feel totally at home with the Buddha's teachings. It is for the individual to decide, here we are just sharing thoughts and feelings ...and a little experience.

Maybe all we have to do to get an inkling of past lives, is to look at our intentions and inclinations now.

A student called Marpa was rowing across a river, after a journey from India to Tibet. A jealous friend threw all his notes that he had collected from teachers, over board. He of course was very upset. His teacher said, “What remains in your heart, you understood, the notes on paper were things you didn't understand anyway.”

Emptiness merely means nothing beyond...if a thing is empty, then it is totally clear, no obstructions, purity itself!

[Rahkyt]

I read an explanation of that Higher Self idea in a pendulum scrying book before that made a lot of sense to me. It kind of reiterated what you are saying here. This guy explained it quite simply, actually. He said that the Higher Self is that which is the totality of its collective spiritual experience. It is every incarnation, every soul or spirit that had an individual experience, every person, every ego, every "I" and "Me" that it, the Higher Self, has ever been. The Higher Self is kind of way up there. It does not concern itself with us generally at an individual "I" and "Me" level, as it has a multitude of soul/spirit shards, if you will, that are constantly being formed and dissolved, emanating from it down into material experience and returning to it in order to add its individual experiences to that of the Higher Self.

He explained that what people generally mistake as the Higher Self is really the Lower Self, which he also called the Inner Child. He explained that the Inner Child is responsible for what we might call achievement of the Siddhis, or magic, precognition, seeing auras, such things, while the Higher Self is charged with our greater Destiny, making sure we experience the lessons it requires for its own growth, the synchronicities we experience and the completion of our life plans.

The Lower Self/Inner Child is playful and will take credit for being the Higher Self if we allow it to. The Lower Self is that which our Ego/Mind can interact with, not the Higher Self, at least, not directly. But we can access the Higher Self through the Lower Self/Inner Child. The Lower Self can be a messenger of sorts.

Perhaps this is not the exact point of your original post, but I thought of it as I read what you wrote. If this is in any way an accurate depiction of our relationship to those parts of our Self that our normal waking mind does not have access to, then we are indeed being tricked by ourselves. Not necessarily our Ego/Mind complex, but by that part of ourselves that we call our Subconscious, or Lower Self, or Inner Child. Or, perhaps for some folks, it is indeed just the Ego, the Intellect, pretending. Considering the work that most of us still have yet to do with our Inner Child to heal her or him, the amount of self-deception that must be going on in this area has got to be much greater than is generally admitted or realized.

Thanks once more and always for the space to explore these ideas. Bless, my friend.

[Tarka the Duck]

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
In this Forum we pretty much only have words. Words are always shadows. Like in Plato’s story of The Cave.

Unfortunately, what this means is that one person may understand or play with a concept just as a concept, a word. A second person may realise the concept. That is much harder to do, and takes substantial work on oneself. It takes much overcoming of your self-deception. It takes watching yourself all the time like a hawk. It means writing the words with the very fabric of your life experience – with your sweat, your joy, and ultimately with your detachment, your inner feeling, your understanding. And even, ultimately, with your true happiness (by which I don’t mean any excitement, or any good mood or stimulation, and I do mean something which is its own opposite).

So, yes. Just the concept or the words that a person needs “to thine own self be true” and to deeply, truly “know thyself”, and so on, will lead a person astray, as you say, Tony. As will any other words. That’s providing the person doesn’t fully realise the meaning of such words.

But realisation is what spirituality is all about.

And it certainly is true that the lowest level of spiritual enlightenment occurs with the realisation that at your deepest and truest level you are the same as Source. I know, because I realised it in my adolescence, along with some of the higher levels of enlightenment. But I know from my experience of these that they all involve even deeper understanding of who you really are in your true nature, and direct seeing of what that really implies.

I don’t agree that everyone needs a method, Tony. If the reason for needing a method is to use something that’s “objective”, all I can say is that the “inter-subjective” is the source of all certainty and truth, and is in every way preferable to that which is objective.

Tony, you say that a method is necessary because it will give you “sound confidence”. I say it will only give you a crutch. Any such crutch will just be extra baggage, I’m afraid.

Hello TH!

Could explain what "inter-subjective" means? Sounds good, but I don't have a clue!

Regarding the "crutch" idea...you seem to be implying that that is a negative.
As I know I currently have a limp, I am delighted and proud to accept the help and support of a crutch that is the right size and shape for me. I don't see any shame in that at all: and I know that, one day, I will be happy to throw that crutch away.

I suppose if one doesn't feel one is limping, then a crutch would be excess baggage, as you say.

In every other aspect of life, I am extremely grateful for all the teachers who have ever helped me: they have passed on their experience, and through my understanding and practice, I have been able to experience things for myself.
The spiritual journey, for me, is no different. Finding a teacher who does it for you isn't necessarily easy - I have been let down quite badly by a couple of "gurus", but that has in no way diminished my search, or my utter respect for those who offer wisdom arising from practice.

I don't feel that "my path" is much different from anyone else's path.
Therefore, I am happy to listen to, reflect and hopefully learn from those who have trodden the path before me.

Perhaps it comes down to the strength of one's inner questions.
If the questions are so overwhelmingly strong and all-encompassing, it feels as if there is no time to waste wandering around, limping...pass that crutch, will you?!!

[pie'n'eal]

Posted by Rahkyt (here)
I read an explanation of that Higher Self idea in a pendulum scrying book before that made a lot of sense to me. It kind of reiterated what you are saying here. This guy explained it quite simply, actually. He said that the Higher Self is that which is the totality of its collective spiritual experience. It is every incarnation, every soul or spirit that had an individual experience, every person, every ego, every "I" and "Me" that it, the Higher Self, has ever been. The Higher Self is kind of way up there. It does not concern itself with us generally at an individual "I" and "Me" level, as it has a multitude of soul/spirit shards, if you will, that are constantly being formed and dissolved, emanating from it down into material experience and returning to it in order to add its individual experiences to that of the Higher Self.

He explained that what people generally mistake as the Higher Self is really the Lower Self, which he also called the Inner Child. He explained that the Inner Child is responsible for what we might call achievement of the Siddhis, or magic, precognition, seeing auras, such things, while the Higher Self is charged with our greater Destiny, making sure we experience the lessons it requires for its own growth, the synchronicities we experience and the completion of our life plans.

The Lower Self/Inner Child is playful and will take credit for being the Higher Self if we allow it to. The Lower Self is that which our Ego/Mind can interact with, not the Higher Self, at least, not directly. But we can access the Higher Self through the Lower Self/Inner Child. The Lower Self can be a messenger of sorts.

Perhaps this is not the exact point of your original post, but I thought of it as I read what you wrote. If this is in any way an accurate depiction of our relationship to those parts of our Self that our normal waking mind does not have access to, then we are indeed being tricked by ourselves. Not necessarily our Ego/Mind complex, but by that part of ourselves that we call our Subconscious, or Lower Self, or Inner Child. Or, perhaps for some folks, it is indeed just the Ego, the Intellect, pretending. Considering the work that most of us still have yet to do with our Inner Child to heal her or him, the amount of self-deception that must be going on in this area has got to be much greater than is generally admitted or realized.

Thanks once more and always for the space to explore these ideas. Bless, my friend.

Rahkyt.....wonderful!

[Lifebringer]

Like I said numerous times before, it feels right in my gut which has proven to be a great source of prevention of danger if you listen. Some don't, but I do and if you say to yourself, WWJD, i think the answer will come. But you have to listen.

[Tarka the Duck]

Posted by Lifebringer (here)
Like I said numerous times before, it feels right in my gut which has proven to be a great source of prevention of danger if you listen. Some don't, but I do and if you say to yourself, WWJD, i think the answer will come. But you have to listen.

WWJD??!

Thanks!
Kathie

[Jenci]

Posted by Rahkyt (here)
I read an explanation of that Higher Self idea in a pendulum scrying book before that made a lot of sense to me. It kind of reiterated what you are saying here. This guy explained it quite simply, actually. He said that the Higher Self is that which is the totality of its collective spiritual experience. It is every incarnation, every soul or spirit that had an individual experience, every person, every ego, every "I" and "Me" that it, the Higher Self, has ever been. The Higher Self is kind of way up there. It does not concern itself with us generally at an individual "I" and "Me" level, as it has a multitude of soul/spirit shards, if you will, that are constantly being formed and dissolved, emanating from it down into material experience and returning to it in order to add its individual experiences to that of the Higher Self.

He explained that what people generally mistake as the Higher Self is really the Lower Self, which he also called the Inner Child. He explained that the Inner Child is responsible for what we might call achievement of the Siddhis, or magic, precognition, seeing auras, such things, while the Higher Self is charged with our greater Destiny, making sure we experience the lessons it requires for its own growth, the synchronicities we experience and the completion of our life plans.

The Lower Self/Inner Child is playful and will take credit for being the Higher Self if we allow it to. The Lower Self is that which our Ego/Mind can interact with, not the Higher Self, at least, not directly. But we can access the Higher Self through the Lower Self/Inner Child. The Lower Self can be a messenger of sorts.

I really like that description, Rahkyt.

Considering the work that most of us still have yet to do with our Inner Child to heal her or him, the amount of self-deception that must be going on in this area has got to be much greater than is generally admitted or realized.

The lower self/inner child is always the last to get it. "Surely I must be fixed by now!, it cries", lol.

When we move in sync with what life is presenting to us, rather than resisting it, the movement itself dissolves the ego/inner child.

Each moment, life offers us an opportunity to coax the inner child out of the shadows where it has been hiding. Sometimes it is the most subtlest of clinging or belief never seen before, which is suddenly seen with great clarity when life is allowed to flow spontaneously, as it should.

This process takes time but with sincerity and humility, it works exactly as it should and not a moment sooner.
Jeanette

[greybeard]

Posted by truthseekerdan (here)

Posted by greybeard (here)

Its all levels Dan so of course you are right.
Ultimately there is only God.
All prayers are therefore to Self.

Good to see your mother board up and running once again Dan--- you were greatly missed.
Best wishes
Chris

Namaste Chris,

This is not about being 'right or wrong', only the ego sees that. However, we need to understand that the level of human consciousness is not the same as it was even a few years ago. Teachers like Ramesh and others, were more relevant back then due to the level of awareness (consciousness evolution) of that time's period. In the current times however, one will have to find the inner (true) direct teacher within its heart. No more proxies...

Everything is actually only one thing at the most basic level. We become aware of this when the illusion of separation disappears. The deeper our understanding of this, the better we are at alleviating our suffering. All suffering ends when we find truth at its source. To find truth at its source, we must first find out who we are at the deepest level. To find out who we are at the deepest level, we must have balance.

To have balance, we must let go of all unwanted feelings or attachments, even if we do not see them as being connected to us. If we are able to do this, even for only a few moments each day, we will begin to understand that any unwanted feelings or attachments that arise can be disarmed and removed from our daily lives. The relief from this basic routine alone is proof that a great inner power and energy is within each one of us, waiting to be discovered.

Much Love ~ Dan

I love conversing with you Dan neither of has to be right and you make me think.
The thing is, not one of the new brigade of awakened ones say that they made it happen. (nor the traditional path ones)
The awakening happened spontaneously, after years of searching in most cases.
Some even had a Zen master to guide them.
So it would seem that in order to be nobody (everything) you have to go through years of disciplined searching.
Then after the event-- in retrospect they can say it cant be spoken of but things happen by themselves and only happening is happening.
Thats is true.
It is also implied that you have no will power, that there is no individual to have will power.
That flies in the face of the teaching of Jesus.
Granted that we are living in very different times
I have no opinion either way as frankly I dont know.

Any one who as visited here

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...o-transcend-it.

will see that my opinion has fluctuated over the course of that thread.

Im no an authority just share what I have found and my current impression.
I cant share truth because I am still in ignorance.
Some of the videos on that thread are sharing the One truth as they are in that state.
I am not and do not claim to be other than that.
The wave can say it is part of the ocean and of the same essence but it cant claim it is the Ocean.
The OCEAN can however claim it is also the wave.

Chris

[Ultima Thule]

I would like to be right, I´ve pursued it for years - unfortunately being right is not the same as knowing the truth.
I have been searching to be connected with an external source of information for years - unfortunately it is not the same source I actually am looking to be connected with.
I have been digging through the layers of information and disinformation to find ever more layers - unfortunately the one layer I am digging for is not to be found there.
It´s like reading a good book, you devour it and can´t wait for the last page - unfortunately in this book you never get there, just one or two pages more to go.

Crap, crap and crap. I totally and honestly see the point to destroy my higher self if I ever see one... and any buddhas, christs or any other buggers coming along as well, while I´m at it!
This may sound a bit humorous, in fact I am deadly serious but this is easier to handle with a bit of humor.
Very good thread Pie´n´eal, thank you very much!

UT

[eaglespirit]

Posted by Little Ishta (here)
Well you are entitled to your opinion Tony. You do raise some valid points in regard to Higher Self being your ego. But Higher Self could be your True Self with out Ego being involved. The path of enlightenment is different for everyone as everyone needs to follow their own path and find their True Self. The Truth is within each and every one of us. It is up to us to find it. That is the Waking process. The ascension is merely us trying to rise above our lower self. It is about caring, loving and wanting to be free of the greed and the selfishness.

I have gone through this with Others before...when You are 'intentionally' coming from an Unconditionally-Loving-Selfless-Wisdomlaced-Place...
the Higher-Self/Soul IS Egoless and Dances with Loving Oneness! You ARE the Egoless Energy in proportion to the degree of Giving! It becomes a Natural Balance while You Dance in these 3d Halls!

Too much guru talk disarms the energy, imho...just live it!

[Rahkyt]

Posted by Jenci (here)
I really like that description, Rahkyt.

I liked it as well when I first read it, Jenci, it immediately resonated with my experience of the 'inner dialogue' as well my understanding of human psychology. I've seen the Higher Self also associated with the 72 Names of God, the theory being that there are only that many Higher Selves, each one corresponding to a Name of God, and that all of us who are incarnated are a part of what effectively are 72 Soul Groups, or 72 families of Humanity, each a part of each of these Names of God. In this view, every Higher Self is an entity, in and of itself. A conscious, living BEing, made up of us, each of us being soul-shards, or cells within its body, much like we have cells in our body that display aspects of consciousness, that live, that die, that procreate, that have experiences within the Midi-chlorian Collective that each of us represents. As Above, So Below.

The question then becomes, do we want to be subsumed back into that Higher Self upon dissolution, effectively losing our individuality (ego-self) in the process, once again becoming part of something greater? Or do we refuse the re-integration with Higher Self and seek Another Path? As Casteneda and others have posited, a way past the Eagle and utter oblivion, as a potential higher destiny where we become Names of God ourselves? And to proceed along that Path, will it then become incumbent upon us to create "lesser" soul-shards which we send down into materiality eventually in order to gain experience before returning to us as we become the greater energetic and vampiric entities that the Higher Self seems from this admittedly strange perspective to be?

Again I'm off-topic, but these are my thoughts ...

Posted by Jenci (here)
The lower self/inner child is always the last to get it. "Surely I must be fixed by now!, it cries", lol.

When we move in sync with what life is presenting to us, rather than resisting it, the movement itself dissolves the ego/inner child.

Each moment, life offers us an opportunity to coax the inner child out of the shadows where it has been hiding. Sometimes it is the most subtlest of clinging or belief never seen before, which is suddenly seen with great clarity when life is allowed to flow spontaneously, as it should.

This process takes time but with sincerity and humility, it works exactly as it should and not a moment sooner.
Jeanette

Very well said. When I learned of this potentiality there was an accompanying meditation whereby you were supposed to practice getting in contact with your Inner Child and gain permission from it to use the pendulum, since there may be times when it did not feel like it, or times when you might want to use the pendulum for the wrong reasons, like telling the future, finding out things about other people, using it for selfish reasons, things like that. The instructions were just to meditate upon the Inner Child and ask its guidance.

For me, that ended up being meditating upon a scene. A glade, in the middle of the forest where I would find my Inner Child, myself at about 5 or 6 years old, often running and playing, or just sitting silently, depending upon the moment, I guess, it was never the same. Sometimes he would just stare at me, other times he would be playful, sometimes he would even not be there. A few times I sent him with msgs to my Higher Self, he would scamper off into the forest after nodding or staring at me silently. It was amazing to me how I had very little control, imaginatively, over what he would do in any situation. It was as if he were, indeed, an entity apart from what I considered to be my-self.

[johnf]

Words, words, words! I was instantly intrigued by the title of the thread. It reminds me of the title of the book, "If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill him". Both titles tend to bring the defensive combative self to the fore, ready to defend the holy self! I think that both authors are trying to offer an opportunity to the readers to observe the battle of opposites within us and to notice there is an awareness outside that battle. As long as this idea remains an approach to awareness, and doesn't result in a new religion of destroying false gods, or adulating true ones, it will help us to keep what I call the exaggerated self in it's place, and allow it to fulfill it's limited purpose in the world of time.

In my life , I have had many different experiences of awareness, that have had value in whatever relative world they existed in. The challenge in each of them was to note the existence of that world, and to accept it as a valuable part of the whole, and to move on. Accepting that challenge is what many call gratitude. If I overdue the gratitude, i create a self that will fight to the death for whatever ideas,experiences and identities, brought me to that point.

If i under do it, I become a self destructive self ready to drop the A bomb on any who follow this self or any self that resembles it. I still struggle immensely with this one, and find coming to this forum a way of noticing, that perhaps I am not the only one.

Having released all that hot air, (perhaps too much), I can say that I have attributed the identity of higher self to some sort of energy that has helped me see that I have been fighting myself, and others needlessly, and that this battle isn't something that helps me or others. These rare moments are startling,and contain an ecstasy or something that has been really hard to let go of. Perhaps the trick here is too find the true owner of this "gold" and return it to them, and in doing so relinquish my misplaced admiration of that "self"

[greybeard]

Thinking deeper on the subject.
One has to start from where they are.
I can shout I am enlightened as much as I like but that will not achieve anything, nothing will change.
Accepting that I am in an illusory state called ignorance--- I dont know the truth.
There has to be a mechanism to at least start the process (even if that is illusory too)
Ignorance is just lack of knowledge.
I dont have subjective experience of my true identity (oneness)
Enlightenment has been spoken of as being by the Grace of God for thousands of years--- I have no reason to doubt that is true.
My understanding on Higher Self is as has been said here in this thread http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post387183 -- but in my own words now.
There is only one Higher Self and it is shared by all.
It would throw you off a cliff if that brought you out of ignorance.
I think there has to be a spiritual intention to know Truth---- "What/who am I ?"
So through that commitment, made out of free will, Higher Self will bring about events situations to move the aspirant out of ignorance into the state called enlightenment.

Again not saying I am right but that is my understanding of the moment.

Chris

[Dawn]

What a fun and funny thread. For many years I was in 'spiritual seeker HELL!' and convinced I needed to do so many methods and rituals, and even to learn from 'teachers', and to sit in meditation day after day in countless silent retreats. Finally, one day, I was simply light and carefree, even if my mind did not agree.

There are 2 sides to every coin. In our case there is the side of oneness (emptiness and pure potential), and then on the other side there is the amazing display of the many creations. So, we are both one and part of the many.

There is a story of a Zen master who would give his students koans (questions) to ponder in order to help them see who they were. One of his students told him, "I finally get it. The answer to all the koans is the same! It is all emptiness and none of this (3d reality) is real!" The Zen master picked up his stick and hit the student hard across the shoulders. The student cried, "Ouch! Why did you do that?!" And the Zen master replied, "If you think that you have the answer and all is emptiness... what is that?"

On this thread it seems we are talking about the 2 sides of the coin and there is some dispute depending on which side each person is looking at. Relax, it is all good... One or Many... there is joy in all.

I think it is important to take the spiritual journey and discover the other side of the coin which is the very ground of existence and creation. Realizing that you are actually THAT, which births all, is very important- and will change you for ever. But, when you have climbed that mountain to the top, it is time to come back down 'into the marketplace' where you can be a gift to all that you come in contact with.

I'm not sure about enlightenment. I've been with many supposedly 'enlightened' teachers and they still put their pants on one leg at a time. They still have personalities, and they still refer to themselves as 'I' when they are out and about town. I also have heard about those who never come back down in their lifetime and remain in the realization of the empty oneness full time. They miss out on all the fun that can be had by enjoying the 'many' and playing there, but that is their choice.

It is possible to be to a place where you are aware of both at all times. However that does not happen until you cease seeking. The one and the many, the same and different. What a wonderful game.

Below is a depiction of the stages of enlightenment as seen by Zen Buddhism. Study them carefully, they are a sort of code for what the pathless path is. Can you see that the posts here conflict depending on which of the 10 stages someone is experiencing?

PS: I do not consider myself a Zen Buddhist, but I love some of the ways they point to the Truth!