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Thread: Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

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    Canada Avalon Member S-L's Avatar
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    Default Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

    I hope to use this post as a means of canvassing the forum on this topic as it's been bothering me of late.

    Is there any point to gathering information and trying to "figure it out" on an intellectual level? How far can one take this? Perhaps one might only select information that "resonates" with you in hopes of forming a clearer picture. I heartily agree, but I've been burned by this in the past. Chalk it up to lack of experience, outside manipulation, or something else, but I wonder if this is really the only/best way.

    If we define a state of enlightenment as bridging the gap between mind and spirit, and allowing spirit to express itself through you - then you'd be tapping directly into Source. The veil of deception... would not be troublesome for you. Confusion would melt away into pure Knowingness.

    To wit: what is the most effective way to spend one's time? Piecing it out through websites like this one (which I love, for the record ), or focusing on one of the many spiritual practices/paths that lead to enlightenment? A bit of both? How can you justify the former without pursuing the latter?

    During an Edgar Cayce reading, he once chastised: "Why follow a teacher when you can follow the Teacher of teachers?"

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    Canada Avalon Member sandy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

    I don't know S-L but it seems to me, in my experience, the more I find out about me (including the good and not so good) and OWN, the more enlightened I become

    Hope this helps.
    Love and Light Always/Sandy

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    Default Re: Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

    Quote Posted by S-L (here)
    I hope to use this post as a means of canvassing the forum on this topic as it's been bothering me of late.

    Is there any point to gathering information and trying to "figure it out" on an intellectual level? How far can one take this? Perhaps one might only select information that "resonates" with you in hopes of forming a clearer picture. I heartily agree, but I've been burned by this in the past. Chalk it up to lack of experience, outside manipulation, or something else, but I wonder if this is really the only/best way.

    If we define a state of enlightenment as bridging the gap between mind and spirit, and allowing spirit to express itself through you - then you'd be tapping directly into Source. The veil of deception... would not be troublesome for you. Confusion would melt away into pure Knowingness.

    To wit: what is the most effective way to spend one's time? Piecing it out through websites like this one (which I love, for the record ), or focusing on one of the many spiritual practices/paths that lead to enlightenment? A bit of both? How can you justify the former without pursuing the latter?

    During an Edgar Cayce reading, he once chastised: "Why follow a teacher when you can follow the Teacher of teachers?"
    Most certainly, I do not have the answers. Yes, there are many who choose many paths -create your own way....

    I believe what Edgar Cayce was saying do not look to others or outside of yourself for answers or to connect to Source. But meditate and go within to find your answers and connect with Source.

    Thank you for your post and welcome to Avalon

    Nora

    We are all related
    Last edited by Guest; 27th December 2011 at 03:44.

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    Australia Avalon Member Anchor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

    Quote Posted by Nora (here)
    Yes, there many who choose many paths -create your own way....
    You nailed that.

    Krishnamurti says Truth is a pathless land but that just means we each have our own and it cant really be shared. So my path wont be your path, and thus there is no precedent.

    What there is though, are some useful tips and tricks that many have in common.
    -- Let the truth be known by all, let the truth be known by all, let the truth be known by all --

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    Default Re: Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

    I am personally struggling with a concept similar to this myself.

    A persons life can undergo no physical changes from day to day (e.g. house, car, job, weather, government, finances, etc), yet becoming more spiritual or enlightened takes that very same life and shifts the importance of the physical away. So in reality, nothing in the physical life needs to necessarily change and the only change is taking place inside you. As the changes inside you manifest, it may or may not be reflected in your physical reality in the form of lifestyle/consumption. It may be a means of just accepting your life as it is.

    So I wonder, too, what the point of gathering more information is. There are people living the life you wish you had (whatever that may be), without ever gathering any information or searching for enlightenment. The very search for knowledge and enlightenment has a way of taking one out of life, where we philosophize about stopping to smell the roses, but not actually doing so.

    In my personal experience, the ratio of knowledge far outweighs the actions in life reflecting that knowledge and I think that needs to be brought to balance for myself and many others.

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    Default Re: Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

    You can’t eat the menu at a restaurant. I see discussion as being like a menu. It has its place. It’s no substitute for getting your life right.

    It’s necessary because it does help point you in certain directions, or stimulate you to ask yourself new questions.

    It also acts like a mirror, and getting some feedback from others is part of the process too. Being open to others is part of the process as well, because the Universe speaks to you through them in various strange and unexpected ways.
    Last edited by TraineeHuman; 27th December 2011 at 03:26.

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    Default Re: Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

    Quote Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
    You can’t eat the menu at a restaurant.
    I really like this analogy. Thanks for using it.

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    Default Re: Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

    Quote Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
    You can’t eat the menu at a restaurant. I see discussion as being like a menu. It has its place. It’s no substitute for getting your life right.

    It’s necessary because it does help point you in certain directions, or stimulate you to ask yourself new questions.

    It also acts like a mirror, and getting some feedback from others is part of the process too. Being open to others is part of the process as well, because the Universe speaks to you through them in various strange and unexpected ways.

    No, you certainly can't eat the menu lol.

    Yes, we do need human interactions and have met some beautiful people along the way; some amazing things have come through and about as a result. I've come across a lot of information that has helped me in a myriad of ways too. I am a work in progress.

    Nora

    We are all related

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    Default Re: Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

    There's a lot I would like to say about this as I find myself asking the same questions. Please, allow me to share these gems (shout out to VaughnB) from Sri Ramakrishna.

    Quote Two friends went into an orchard. One of them possessing much worldly wisdom, immediately began to count the mango trees there and the number of mangoes each tree bore, and to estimate what might be the approximate value of the whole orchard. His companion went to the owner, made friends with him, and then, quietly going into a tree, began at his host’s desire to pluck the fruits and eat them. Whom do you consider to be the wiser of the two? Eat the mangoes. It will satisfy your hunger. What is the good of counting the trees and leaves and making calculations? The vain man of intellect busies himself with finding out the ‘why’ and ‘wherefore’ of creation, while the humble man of wisdom makes friends with the Creator and enjoys His gift of supreme bliss.
    Quote The almanac forecasts the rainfall of the year. But not a drop of water will you get by squeezing the almanac. No, not one drop.
    and Confucius says:

    Quote In the world there are many different roads but the destination is the same. There are a hundred deliberations but the result is one.
    I have more thoughts on this, but it's family time and then I have to get to bed.

    Great thread.

    Vivek

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    Default Re: Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

    Quote Posted by S-L (here)
    Is there any point to gathering information and trying to "figure it out" on an intellectual level? How far can one take this? Perhaps one might only select information that "resonates" with you in hopes of forming a clearer picture. I heartily agree, but I've been burned by this in the past. Chalk it up to lack of experience, outside manipulation, or something else, but I wonder if this is really the only/best way.
    Hi SL

    Getting burned is part of the process. Allow the burning to happen, I say.

    I would gather information, fix on what I believed was true, only to find out it way another lie. Over and over this happened until eventually I moved to the point of not believing in any of it.

    When I have no fixed points of reference, I can't be lied to or told the truth and because I am not fixed or holding onto anything, information can flow freely and when the information/energy flows freely, some greater knowing is here.

    And this greater knowing doesn't need to assert itself.

    Jeanette

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    Default Re: Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

    Perhaps the very thing to use ones time is to search and study of information to be finally sick and tired of searching and when you can't take any more, you give up and look inside. Perhaps it is very worthwhile to search extensively and make sure there is no point in searching.

    Add: Before I actually try to lift 2500 pounds, I think I can´t do it. After I try, I know I can´t do it. Therefore it is good to try the impossible and then surrender to what is possible?

    UT
    Last edited by Ultima Thule; 27th December 2011 at 14:52.

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    Default Re: Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

    Quote Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
    You can’t eat the menu at a restaurant. I see discussion as being like a menu. It has its place. It’s no substitute for getting your life right.

    It’s necessary because it does help point you in certain directions, or stimulate you to ask yourself new questions.

    It also acts like a mirror, and getting some feedback from others is part of the process too. Being open to others is part of the process as well, because the Universe speaks to you through them in various strange and unexpected ways.
    I would echo this. If you gather knowledge in many fields you can then see the principle of correlation in effect. This allows you to form your raison d'etre along your path. Without the correlation of overtly incoherent areas you have no supporting evidence for your own views.

    Also I'd like to venture an opinion that will put me at direct loggerheads with many on here. I'm not searching for enlightenment. This trip in 3d is actively providing enlightenment for my higher selves by inception. I don't need to be enlightened in 3d, mindful.......yes, enlightened, no. Spiritual, yes, god-like, no.

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    Default Re: Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

    Quote Posted by S-L (here)
    I hope to use this post as a means of canvassing the forum on this topic as it's been bothering me of late.

    Is there any point to gathering information and trying to "figure it out" on an intellectual level? How far can one take this? Perhaps one might only select information that "resonates" with you in hopes of forming a clearer picture. I heartily agree, but I've been burned by this in the past. Chalk it up to lack of experience, outside manipulation, or something else, but I wonder if this is really the only/best way.

    If we define a state of enlightenment as bridging the gap between mind and spirit, and allowing spirit to express itself through you - then you'd be tapping directly into Source. The veil of deception... would not be troublesome for you. Confusion would melt away into pure Knowingness.

    To wit: what is the most effective way to spend one's time? Piecing it out through websites like this one (which I love, for the record ), or focusing on one of the many spiritual practices/paths that lead to enlightenment? A bit of both? How can you justify the former without pursuing the latter?

    During an Edgar Cayce reading, he once chastised: "Why follow a teacher when you can follow the Teacher of teachers?"
    One very big problem with “gathering information” in order to “figure it out” is that our mode of communication (i.e. words) is an extremely blunt instrument. Trainee Human pointed out that you can’t eat the menu, but how often have you ordered something from it only to find what arrives at your table is nothing like you understood it to be?

    The study of philosophies ancient, eastern, western, modern, or whatever label we choose to give it is, in my estimation, grossly overrated. Why? Because you are already living; already experiencing. You are already enlightened. I find it a little bewildering that people want to follow gurus, masters, leaders on matters of enlightenment. Why? Are they not living and experiencing like you? The belief is that these people have access to something the rest don’t and I simply don’t believe that. No two people are the same; no two life-paths are the same. Let the guru go his way and you can go yours.

    If there is one rule of thumb to follow it is this. Anytime someone says, hey look at me and what I’m saying; I know more than you and I am more powerful than you can possibly imagine. Would you like to follow me? Your answer should be, no thanks I have my own radar just like you have yours.

    As for attaining enlightenment through meditation, I have problems with that too. People talk about how to quieten the chatty mind and while this may be a method of inducing some sort of trance or opening a doorway to something, I actually have a problem with the entire concept itself. We came here with 5 senses. Check. By meditating, you are practically cutting off all of those senses. Check. Why then do we have the senses if the most valuable thing we can do with them is to shut them off?

    Sorry, but when the time comes and we truly no longer need those 5 senses, I’ll be happy to let them go, but not before because there’s simply no reason for it; in spite of what you may have read from “books”.

    That’s my perspective anyway. Take it or leave it; I expect most will leave it.
    Hope springs eternal in the human breast; Man never Is, but always To be blest: The soul, uneasy and confin'd from home, Rests and expatiates in a life to come.
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    Default Re: Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

    @Bollinger

    Quote People talk about how to quieten the chatty mind and while this may be a method of inducing some sort of trance or opening a doorway to something, I actually have a problem with the entire concept itself. We came here with 5 senses. Check. By meditating, you are practically cutting off all of those senses. Check. Why then do we have the senses if the most valuable thing we can do with them is to shut them off?

    Sorry, but when the time comes and we truly no longer need those 5 senses, I’ll be happy to let them go, but not before because there’s simply no reason for it; in spite of what you may have read from “books”.
    To express an opinion about something as experiential and practical as meditation while never having practised it seems futile
    (and if you have practised, and still hold this view, I'd be really interested to hear what method you used).
    Obviously, I don't know where you got your ideas from, but seriously, I would check your source!

    If the senses are cut off, you're definitely doing something wrong: meditation is all about clarity.
    If you're in a trance, you're definitely doing something wrong: meditation is all about awareness.

    Kathie

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    Default Re: Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

    Quote Two friends went into an orchard. One of them possessing much worldly wisdom, immediately began to count the mango trees there and the number of mangoes each tree bore, and to estimate what might be the approximate value of the whole orchard. His companion went to the owner, made friends with him, and then, quietly going into a tree, began at his host’s desire to pluck the fruits and eat them. Whom do you consider to be the wiser of the two? Eat the mangoes. It will satisfy your hunger. What is the good of counting the trees and leaves and making calculations? The vain man of intellect busies himself with finding out the ‘why’ and ‘wherefore’ of creation, while the humble man of wisdom makes friends with the Creator and enjoys His gift of supreme bliss.
    Thank you for the great story - it hit all the right chords with me. My gut tells me this is the way to go as well, and yet I can't help but find myself driven to pursue the more mundane, material types of information. Seen in a certain light, they seem mutually exclusive. Eastern mystics/zen philosophies speak of "dropping the mind"; the drive for an ever better information-based logical understanding of the world would seem to negate this approach.

    Here is how I have reconciled the two. I'd be interested in hearing what anyone else thinks of this. I do believe life's ultimate purpose is to experience the divine within this 3D existence - to act as a bridge, or a vessel, for a little piece of heaven to creatively express itself through you, and make a contribution to this world based on your unique design and capacity. It may take many lifetimes to get to this point, but eventually everyone will cross that bridge, and then "graduate" to the next step of existence. (No, I don't believe in the whole ascension scenario.) However... to be able to effectively contribute to the world, even having had achieved this level of awareness/enlightenment, one must possess a worldly, 3D wisdom. A certain comprehension of the skills and knowledge to be an effective contributor in the world. Otherwise, you're a heavenly babe thrust into a den of very 3D wolves. One needs to balance the two.

    In that light I've chosen the Steps to Knowledge spiritual practice by Marshall Vian Summers, and spend a huge amount of time educating myself through sites like Avalon and Camelot, and others. Part of me always wonders if the latter will negatively impact the former (the whole zen 'no mind' notion), but we shall see.
    Last edited by S-L; 27th December 2011 at 15:14. Reason: grammar

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    Default Re: Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

    Quote Posted by Anchor (here)
    Quote Posted by Nora (here)
    Yes, there many who choose many paths -create your own way....
    You nailed that.

    Krishnamurti says Truth is a pathless land but that just means we each have our own and it cant really be shared. So my path wont be your path, and thus there is no precedent.

    What there is though, are some useful tips and tricks that many have in common.
    Thank you for that beautiful discourse. I have read it before. I benefit from it each time I read it! Krishnamurti's writing is so poetic. In that same vein, perhaps you will enjoy one of his poems, which I greatly like.
    Last edited by S-L; 27th December 2011 at 19:24. Reason: spelling

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    Default Re: Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

    To quote a very dear friend of mine,
    "The best answer might very well be, that there is no best answer."
    Ah, how I'd fought and fought this logic... time and time again... only to realize that I'd been living out this statement within my own mind battles.

    I'm a firm believer that there is a difference between ones fate...and one's ultimate destiny.
    Fate can be geared and readjusted to suit the circumstances. An internal response to an external challenge, or... and external response to an internal challenge. Destiny, on the other hand, feels more ultimate... An inevitable destination for the soul, so to speak... regardless of circumstance and response.

    I agree with you wise ones above.
    Do what feels right and make your own song...
    Each and every note is precious, unique, and holds an important piece of yourself.
    -----------------------------------------------
    "Out of the silent planet... out of the silent planet we are...."
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    Default Re: Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

    You have to do what’s best for you; everyone is not wired the same. We all have different purposes that coordinate with each other. It is always good to take in information from various sources. However, the more you know…the more you’ll learn just how much you don’t know. Carry A box of salt when visiting alternative sites and think with your heart because the truth is not only in front of your face… it was deliberately smashed into pieces to cause confusion. Patience and love will aid you in assembling the puzzle we call life, haste and intolerance will only lead to mistakes…some regrettable.

    In reality, we already know what our problems are....we just have to act on them.


    Peace
    --
    Humans created so much wonder through their division, just imagine what they can do through Unity...

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    Default Re: Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

    Quote Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)

    To express an opinion about something as experiential and practical as meditation while never having practised it seems futile
    (and if you have practised, and still hold this view, I'd be really interested to hear what method you used).
    Obviously, I don't know where you got your ideas from, but seriously, I would check your source!

    If the senses are cut off, you're definitely doing something wrong: meditation is all about clarity.
    If you're in a trance, you're definitely doing something wrong: meditation is all about awareness.

    Kathie
    Hi Kathie,

    I respect your point of view of course whether we agree or disagree. My ideas do not have a source; they are just observations made from experience. I have never myself gone into a trance, nor have I managed to achieve anything that resembles the definition of meditation; and I know there are many. Your definition of it would be most welcome.

    As far as statistics are concerned, around 10% of any random sample of the population practices some sort of meditation so it’s not something that can boast widespread acceptance as being a useful thing to do; that is not to say it isn’t.

    By saying that one cuts the senses off during meditation, I simply meant that it is not really something one does while riding on a roller coaster. It is usual but not always necessary to dim the lights and ensure there is quiet. On the other hand, some meditations are practised with special incantations. But none of that is really of any consequence because we only need to make a few inquiries to understand the usefulness and validity of meditation.

    1. Can we use meditation to change world politics?
    2. Is it possible to meditate a cure for an illness?
    3. Does it give anyone other than the person meditating anything of value?
    4. Can anyone achieve whatever it is that meditation is meant to achieve?
    5. Can it bring peace to our world?
    6. Can it end poverty, disease and injustice?

    If the answer to most of these questions is no, what use is it? If it is done simply to make happy or bring peace to the individual who practises it, it is of no use to me. Most people would rather smoke, drink or take drugs to achieve short-term happiness and they would argue that it is faster, more efficient and yields instant results. Whilst I don’t endorse any of those things, I hope I was able to demonstrate the point.
    Hope springs eternal in the human breast; Man never Is, but always To be blest: The soul, uneasy and confin'd from home, Rests and expatiates in a life to come.
    Alexander Pope

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    Default Re: Is enlightenment the only way / the limits to information?

    Quote Posted by Bollinger (here)
    1. Can we use meditation to change world politics?
    2. Is it possible to meditate a cure for an illness?
    3. Does it give anyone other than the person meditating anything of value?
    4. Can anyone achieve whatever it is that meditation is meant to achieve?
    5. Can it bring peace to our world?
    6. Can it end poverty, disease and injustice?
    Interesting questions

    If you agree that meditation can assist one in getting in touch with one's inner light, then perhaps you can also agree that the answer to all these questions is a resounding 'yes'. If you feel meditation cannot help with this, then I can understand why you'd be skeptical!

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    Bollinger (28th December 2011)

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