Nothing to forgive.

[pie'n'eal]

I don't know if this will make any sense to anyone.

My mother was a difficult person to love, nothing was ever right. She could not help it,
it was the way she was, plus a tough up bring, being the youngest of ten siblings.
This put a lot of strain on the family, and we argued all the time.

It wasn't until the moment that I buried her ashes in my fathers grave, that I felt free, free of the first time, free of the whole family.

Somethings just cannot be put right!

Though I did the seven week bardo prayers for her ...laughing, it was easier to talk to her then!

Tony

[Solstyse]

Posted by Intranuclear (here)
Solstyse,

Hopefully we can briefly explore this subject without anger.
The scenario you described can take many forms. Imagine if you will:

1. Someone, intending harm to you, for whatever reason (revenge or fear or whatnot) drugs someone and instructs them to do the act you described.
What would you consider justice? Is it still simple? How far would you go to settle things and what would you sacrifice?

2. The person who does the deed was mentally unstable and abused their whole life.
Will executing him make you feel good? Would imprisoning him lift your sadness? Would that person even recognize the punishment being dealt?

3. The person doing the deed is very young. As he escapes, you get your gun and shoot him in the back.
Is justice done? Who will suffer longer?

Of course there are many hundreds of permutations that result in the same act you described, but perhaps the point was made.
I think that Tony perhaps also meant that regardless your actions, you must forgive yourself first.
If you had killed the perpetrator, you must forgive yourself, right?
Of course, the perpetrator may have had a family or friends, who may now desire revenge at any cost.
Do they know of forgiveness?

While nothing in these scenarios is real, the mental journey one simulates can feel just as real and the decisions you make can be just as lasting, if you, like an actor, make yourself believe that it is real.

I know that I may not survive the anger towards the perpetrator or anger towards myself if I were to act similarly.
Hard as it may be, forgiveness or forgetting may be the only way to survive such an experience.

After all, if you were God, you can re-arrange the universe and time such that history itself is meaningless, except the lessons God himself would have learned while playing around with temporal permutations.

Please don't mistake passion for anger.
I will answer you questions, but I don't think you read my post.
I was talking about a repeated offender a sociopath. Not an everyday person who got caught in a movie like scenario. But I will happily answer you questions

1. Justice would be the guy who druged the other guy, and sent him to harm me would be put on trial for the crimes he committed against the two of us. 2. Depending on the extent of the harm done, being drugged wouldn't be a viable excuse for some thing. But for the majority you can't hold the hapless 3rd party at fault he was drugged and obviously not of his right mind. It is simple. I will end one with this ( cause I know you are going to go there ) if the 3rd party killsme, it wouldn't matter what I would do.

2. How mentally unstable are you talking. Are we talking handicapped, or "I'm depressed all the time". What type of abuse, what type of crime. No you know it doesn't really matter, what type. I have to say 99% of the people in the world know the difference between right and wrong. Would I execute him, no I don't believe in executions. Would it lift sadness, no but it might ease a burden. Serve a purpose. Would he recognize punishment? I don't know you are very vague with you imaginary person.

3. Once a again, How young, yes it matter. What deed? Once being overly vague, trying to lure me into something.If he killed my daughter, and he isn't crawling away, yes I shoot him, yes justice is done. And he won't suffer long, I would probably shoot him again.

Of course, the perpetrator may have had a family or friends, who may now desire revenge at any cost.
Do they know of forgiveness?

Forgiveness for the guilty. That's almost funny, but it is much more sad.

Sincerely
Me.

[Solstyse]

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)

So I ask you now, is there a limit to forgiveness?

You have the action and the actor, as Tarka said.

The true nature of all sentient beings is an enlightened nature.
That is absolute truth.
But while we are sentient, and not realised, we must live in the relative world of relative truth - things seem to be real.
While living in a seemingly real world, we live in ignorance of our true nature. So any action we do is done in ignorance.
An evil action has to be addressed, while at the same time respecting the true nature of the individual. So one is playing with the relative world and the absolute world.

We are talking here about the most profound truths...in the relative world, whatever the amount of negativity (or evil) that you give out, you will get back.
Similarly, the amount of love you give out will be the love you get back.
Our job is to constantly bring about a balance between the negative and positive in the relative world. By engaging in that, one enters the absolute world.

If you read any of my thread, I never react to negativity because there is always a positive side to it - it is always meaningful.
The Dalai Lama and other are spiritual practitioners. They are not soldiers.
I know of lamas who were in concentration camps for 25 years, and some suffered so much that they committed suicide by dashing their heads against the wall. Other lamas found that, due to the imprisonment, their practice was the best in their life.
It all depends on how we see life and deal with every situation: there are many levels.

Is there a point where you have to draw the line and destroy the perpetrator?

Yes. If there is a mad dog, you can chose to control it for its own benefit, and the benefit of others.

The important point about the OP was that, although we can develop righteous anger, in the end we have to deal with the effect it has on our own minds.
The universe cannot do that for us.
I speak personally. I could cry and scream for eternity about what is going on, but it would do no good. I could kill everyone I considered to be acting negatively, but I'd end up being the only one left on the planet - and then I'd have to kill myself as I'd committed such totally negative actions...

It's wonderful, knowing how absurd we can get.

Tony

I am so ecxited, you used the word Yes, to directly answer a question. I am beginning to learn that the closer you get to spiritual fulfillment the less you are able to use words like Yes, and No.

[Lettherebelight]

Posted by Solstyse (here)
we must all forgive ourselves

That is the one thing I just can't do.

I'm with you on this one....it's just so hard to do! Why?

[Galaxy22]

People have so many more things to forgive themselves for today, than they did 30 years ago. The agents of social control have been busy, and have won the support of most all, at least in terms of health and safety issues, anger management, anything addictive, sexual indiscretions, not picking up dog poop, anything at all, that is where peoples minds are...that is what they have become so stupid.

[Solstyse]

Posted by Lettherebelight (here)

Posted by Solstyse (here)
we must all forgive ourselves

That is the one thing I just can't do.

I'm with you on this one....it's just so hard to do! Why?

Too cut right to the heart of it. We live every second with ourselves, we see and judge ( at least I do ) almost every little minute detail of my daily routine We know everything we did, and worse yet everything we didn't do.
Did you do anything today to help a fellow human being? If not do you forgive yourself for it? As OP said, do you have to even be forgiven?
Or, a slightly different slant, I have a goal in mind in life, I am trying to get to a particular destination. ( I say I but we all are ) I fail more than i win.
Sometimes I forgive myself sometimes I don't.
But I never fully absolve myself from anything.
That would be irresponsible.

[jessamy99]

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
I don't know if this will make any sense to anyone.

My mother was a difficult person to love, nothing was ever right. She could not help it,
it was the way she was, plus a tough up bring, being the youngest of ten siblings.
This put a lot of strain on the family, and we argued all the time.

It wasn't until the moment that I buried her ashes in my fathers grave, that I felt free, free of the first time, free of the whole family.

Somethings just cannot be put right!

Though I did the seven week bardo prayers for her ...laughing, it was easier to talk to her then!

Tony

Dear Tony,

Today is my birthday and I am celebrating having been given the gift of life in this beautiful world.
Just writing to you, on here, has made me feel so much better!!
I want to thank you for listening.
I know it isn't easy.

With love, light and laughter to you all!!
Jessamy xxxx

[pie'n'eal]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU[!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU[!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU! DEAR JESSAMY HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!!!!!!!




Love,
Tony

[jessamy99]

No secrets on here then.....
Laughing!!


Thankyou Tony!! You have a lovely singing voice!!

With love,
Jessamy xxxxx

[jessamy99]

Here is a poem my daughter wrote when she was at primary school...

With love, Jessamy xxxx

Black and White.

Black is my shadow
On the brightest day
It falls in front
To show me my way.

Black is my fear
An old friend of mine
It appears darker still
When laughter's light shines.

As I walk from the shop
Through the darkened arcade
I aim for the car park
That's bright with no shade.

As it is with my feet
So it is with my heart
I aim for the moments
When laughter will start.

And when fear returns
To stand black, in my way,
I'll remember, shadows are darkest
On the brightest day.