Buddhism in a nutshell.

[Tarka the Duck]

What is a snit?!

[Sebastion]

Tony,

Please reconsider your decision and stay with Avalon! You are a wise and honest man with impeccable character.

[another bob]

Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)
What is a snit?

Emotional reactivity in the face of inherently insubstantial, empty phenomena leading to requests for unsubscription.

[Tarka the Duck]

Dear Bollinger

This formula is simple and unmistakeable. It says: if you do x and y, you may hope to achieve z. Take a religion such as Christianity. You have to be baptised, go to church, pray to God, and many other things to be a Christian. Same with Islam; you have to visit Mecca, pray five times a day, fast during certain times of the year and other things in order to call yourself a true Moslem. Of course, the ultimate achievement at the end of it is that you may hope to enter the Kingdom of Heaven upon your departure from this life. So it’s not really just about worshiping a deity; that is just another x in the formula. It is about doing certain things in a certain manner, at certain times and at certain intervals in order to reach a certain goal.

So making a cheese sandwich is a religion...?!
Certain time: one o'clock-ish
Certain manner: cleanly, and methodically
Certain intervals: first, I slice the bread, then I spread the butter before I lay on the cheese,
Certain goal: the production of a cheese sandwich.

Yes, religions have an outer form. So do most other aspects of our life.

I notice you go through the rituals of Christianity and Islam: I'm not familiar with either of those religions, so perhaps you could do the same for ŵhat you perceive as the rituals associated with Buddhism.

Whether that means dressing up in special robes, or wearing specific insignia, walking in an irreverent manner, repeating mantras and incantations, sitting still, not eating flesh, putting on a dog collar, taking a vow of silence, wearing a hair shirt, reading holy books, refraining from sexual acts, giving up all your wealth, meditating, reciting passages from holy scripture… the list is endless… it all boils down to the same basic formula. Do x and y to become z.

Some monks wear robes. So what? Why should it bother you so much that they chose to wear a symbol showing they have decided to step away from the material world? Some people have decided that they want to turn their attention inward.

Not wishing to be picky...but what is "walking in an irreverent manner"?!

Well, out of that list, I do 3. And I do them because I find them beneficial. I wouldn't do them if I didn't. I am not a mindless robot who has abdicated all personal responsibility.

You have absolutely no idea about the intricacy, the multiple layering, the logic of the vast teachings available in Buddhism. If though you were open minded or interested, I would suggest you looked at the website of people such as Alexander Berzin and Matthieu Ricard, or the work of the neuro scientists in the Mind Life institute.

Nibbana, for example, is the goal you’d be aiming to achieve if you do all the right things in Buddhism. It is defined (on one website anyway) thus:

This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation;

So you went to one website and got a Theravadan definition of nirvana. As you said, there is much debate and discussion about the teachings among scholars and teachers...the definition you found is not one that I personally even really understand. I'd probably go for something more along the lines of a stabilising of the experience my true nature.

Is it not simply another glaring example of being born sick and commanded by the gurus or gods to be well? How disturbed does one have to be to impose such things on unassuming human beings drawn to practices just oozing with peace and perfection? That of course, is the bate.

"Commanded" ? In what way? If you mean that there are many, many clearly and precisely explained methods to finding wellness within oneself, then I suppose I might agree with you.
And your suggestion of a "bait" implies that there is someone wishing to obtain something from me. What would that be?

What is wrong with a little peace? Perfection is an irrelevant ideal.

All of the above is not meant as an attack on people’s religions.

It can only be an attack if the weapons you fire hit the target: for that, you have to know what the target is...

It merely demonstrates that there are avenues other than spiritual teachings, unsubstantiated doctrines and religions. It’s called critical thinking that filters out sophistry and mysticism not necessarily because they have no value but because they are not, and never can be, well defined. I look with deep suspicion on anything that hides behind a cloud of nice phrases and flowery intentions. Buddhism is no exception.

Yes, obviously. And this is where you clearly have no idea about the principle teachings of Buddhism.

As part of every teaching, the need to test, question, pull apart is reiterated. Nothing is taken at face value. If something doesn't stand up to scrutiny it is put aside.

This is how the Buddha replied to the villagers of Kalama, when they asked him how to evaluate philosophy and develop a healthy, sceptical attitude:

Kalama Sutta
Do not believe just because it is a tradition maintained by oral repetition.
Do not believe just because it is an unbroken succession of practice.
Do not believe merely because it is hearsay.
Do not believe just because it is in the scriptures.
Do not believe just because it fits with one's point of view.
Do not believe just because it is correct on the ground of metaphysical theories.
Do not believe just because it appeals to one's consideration.
Do not believe just because it agrees with one's opinions and theories.
Do not believe just because the speaker appears believable.
Do not believe just because the speaker is our teacher.
Kalamas, whenever you realize by yourselves what is unwholesome, harmful or is condemned by wise people, and whoever fully undertake or observe this, they will lead to uselessness or suffering, and you should abandon them.
Kalamas, whenever you realise by yourselves what is wholesome, not harmful or is admired by wise people, and whoever fully undertake or observe this, they will lead to usefulness or happiness, you should undertake them.

But do not be so presumptuous to think that it is the “true” religion, or the “only way”, or the “divine word of God”, or the “greatest knowledge” or the “messiah” or the “giver of light” or the “king of kings” and so forth.

Why on earth would you think that? Just because I chose to tell you I prefer a cheese sandwich when you are eating a ham one, does that mean I am saying you should have a cheese sandwich too?

There are many, many topics about which I am aware I know very little: if I dip into them, and mix with people who know more than me, I am cautious and hold back from showing my lack of understanding. If I want to find out more, I do the obvious things such as study, ask questions and listen.

If I don't want to find out more, I move on.
I'm grateful that I don't have an overwhelming urge to step right in there and put them right...

Being Buddhist does not make me a peaceful, gentle, floaty sort of person (that probably makes me a cr#p Buddhist...!)
I get angry. I react. I am passionate.
I know I am not the sharpest knife in the cutlery drawer, and there are many who have much cleverer words and slick ways of saying them.
But I do not have the intention of causing harm, and I do not sit back passively when - maybe mistakenly - I feel I am being walked over

[Tarka the Duck]

Posted by another bob (here)

Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)
What is a snit?

Emotional reactivity in the face of inherently insubstantial, empty phenomena leading to requests for unsubscription.

Spoken as a true nihilist.

I struggle to understand your hostility.

[another bob]

Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)

Posted by another bob (here)

Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)
What is a snit?

Emotional reactivity in the face of inherently insubstantial, empty phenomena leading to requests for unsubscription.

Spoken as a true nihilist.

I struggle to understand your hostility.

Perhaps if you'd let go of your need to diss those with whom you disagree with dogmatic labels and such, you'd be able to drop the struggle, relax, and have some fun.

[Bollinger]

Hi Kathie,

Here we go again. You missed the most salient point. Making a cheese sandwich is not a religion because the steps and the end goal are well defined. I said that quite clearly. The steps needed to achieve any religious goal are never well defined and never understood to be the same by different people.

The second point is this. All that you are and you say you are, you could be without any hint of Buddhism. All people of religion say the same thing. If you only knew what we know, so it is with Buddhism.

Let me ask you a simple question. What made you choose Buddhism? Did you study all the other religions and doctrines as deeply as you studied Buddhism? No, because there are not enough years in a life time to do that. So how do you know that had you picked something else that you would not be now defending that instead? You accuse me of being ignorant in Buddhist traditions and even offer me a website. I could equally offer you books, websites, essays and documentaries that completely destroy all religions, including Buddhism; does that not equally make you just as ignorant as I?

I have no particular problem with any of it. As I was at pains to repeat many times over, this is a discussion and it should be treated as such. No need to get angry or react negatively because that is exactly what all people do when their religion is challenged. Please don’t be like that. Bob for example says that my comments are "inherently insubstantial, empty phenomena" and finds comfort in that thought. You can also do the same.

If I didn’t think people here were strong enough to stay afloat I would have remained silent. Sadly I miscalculated. I still hope Tony returns to the fold. Whatever else I may exude, malice is not one of them.

Regards

Bollinger

[Ineffable Hitchhiker]

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
Buddhism in a nutshell, I give up.

This is merely going round in petty circles.
So from this moment, administrators would you please unsubscribe my account.

I've had a fabulous year here and am grateful for the friendships,
I have learnt so much, more than I can explain.
The mods have my email if anyone wishes to keep in contact.

All the best,
Tony

edit:-
It says "The message is too short....", but I have no words.

[RunningDeer]

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
Buddhism in a nutshell, I give up.

This is merely going round in petty circles.
So from this moment, administrators would you please unsubscribe my account.

I've had a fabulous year here and am grateful for the friendships,
I have learnt so much, more than I can explain.
The mods have my email if anyone wishes to keep in contact.

All the best,
Tony

Dear pie'n'eal/Tony,
No profound words spilling out just a wishing you continued health, love and lots of belly laughter!
Peace and with heart,
Paula

PS This last post you've written, I'll treasure for many reasons.

[Curt]

Hi Tony,

I understand your decision to leave, but wish you'd reconsider. No cheese sandwich is worth loosing a valuable member over. Unless we're talking a really nice aged cheddar on a very good authentic rye bread. But even then...

I would suggest God, or at least, the designers of this forum made the ignore button for a reason. If you're not interested in engaging in convoluted logical ping pong matches with cheese sandwich fanatics, just click ignore and they go away.

Anyway, Tony you're a true badass of the highest order and I thank you for everything. I've learned a great deal from you and wanted to be sure you know that it is appreciated.

I would write Namaste here, but frankly I have no idea what it even means. So, I'll just say, 'hope to see you again.'

And remember.......

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=WlBiLNN1NhQ

[music]

Buddhism, like all religions and belief systems, is not the truth, but the truth viewed from a certain perspective. If the truth of the All is a pie, then religions are the slices. Each will give you a taste, but when one has a real spiritual hunger, then only the whole pie will satisfy. The whole pie lies as much within us as without us, and religions can be useful guideposts as we find the way back to ourselves. It would be good to maintain respect for the religion of another person, as failure to do this can be indicitive of the primacy of the ego, and of a poverty of spirit.

[Solstyse]

Here we go again. You missed the most salient point. Making a cheese sandwich is not a religion because the steps and the end goal are well defined. I said that quite clearly. The steps needed to achieve any religious goal are never well defined and never understood to be the same by different people.


I wasn't going to comment on this thread out of respect for Pie N Eal
but that one statement jumped out at me.
I am pretty sure that in Christianity they have well defined end goals, and even tell you how to get there.
Goal is Heaven, get there through believe in Jesus as Gods son.
Now I am admittedly basing it down.

10 commandments, spread his word. Its all in there.

You just have to take the denominations out of it.

[Tarka the Duck]

Morning Bollinger!

I just wanted you to know that your post on the "nutshell" thread was not the primary reason for Tony deciding to leave.
If you knew him, you should know that he is the first to be ready to discuss something - but unfortunately, as he tries to explain in his final post, we weren't having a discussion...

You didn't show any interest in the subject of the thread, but only appeared to want to lump all spiritual practitioners as rather simple-minded, easily led individuals who fall for "mindless charms" and are taken in by "baits" because of a deep need and feeling of inadequacy. I assume you haven't read much of what Tony has been saying for the past year!!

The only reason I mentioned the names of a couple of Buddhist scholars was that I wanted to show that critical thinking and logic are essential tools in Buddhist practice. "Unsubstantiated doctrine" has no place whatsoever. If you knew me, you would know that I am very rarely swayed by "flowery intentions and clouds of nice phrases"!! I am quite a tough, sceptical nut...

With regard to your religious formula, to be honest, I don't have a big goal in mind. Enlightenment? Nah - I put x and y into practice, and see what I get. If it is helpful, I continue. If it's not, I adjust x and y accordingly and try again.

My feeling as to the definition of religion is that there is the need for a belief of some kind. A set of ideas that can't be substantiated but rely on "faith". If you knew the first thing about Buddhism, you'd know that there is absolutely no belief system. Did you read the quotation I put on the thread about the importance of critical thinking? When we go to teachings, we sometimes spend a whole day just analysing and discussion one sentence: there are so many meanings and interpretations, and there are so many stages of understanding. The whole point is to question and question and question until there are no questions left. The practice is to get rid of filters - which is not a quick fix.

Also, while we are at it, some may need a belief system: who are you to tell them otherwise?! I tried it for a few years: it served a purpose for me at that time.

I'm sorry that you may feel you were the focus of Tony leaving: you weren't, although you may be been one of the catalysts. He has been plagued by 2 individuals -both on threads and by PM, because they don't agree with what he writes. They use guerilla tactics and rarely go far enough to arouse attention, but the continual sniping and jibes - and outright nastiness by PM - is obviously causing them distress, and so T has decided enough is enough.

The problem with dismissing all phenomena as" inherently insubstantial and empty" can be used as an excuse for irresponsible, harmful behaviour. It is only part of the picture: this was being discussed recently in the thread on 'Neo-Advaita and Maha Ati'. It is one of the two truths...the unity of those two truths is essential to have a balanced view. In absolute terms, things do not have inherent existence. But in relative terms, they DO exist in a conventional world, and that needs to be respected. Otherwise any kind behaviour can be justified by saying it is empty of inherent existence. That is known as using the Dharma as a weapon. Again, this is something that has been written about exhaustively.

If you are interested, Tony has written a post today which may explain more. I just wanted to give you a bit more background.

Very best wishes
Kathie

PS 26 users browing this thread!! Isn't it amazing how people intuitively pick up when then there is something entertaining going on!!

[Anchor]

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
Buddhism in a nutshell, I give up.

This is merely going round in petty circles.
So from this moment, administrators would you please unsubscribe my account.

I've had a fabulous year here and am grateful for the friendships,
I have learnt so much, more than I can explain.
The mods have my email if anyone wishes to keep in contact.

All the best,
Tony

Awwww f*ckit man - NO!

Earlier you said this:

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
As one proceeds along the path, one has to expect testing.

Yes you bloody do, and if I may be so bold, if its at all possible you don't walk away from them!

I recommend a little break, a little meditation, then come back and simply let some of those with whom you are done, have their say unmet.

I mean do I have to slap you around the head? Ok maybe not, but I will anyway: <THWACK>

And when you come back, remember you don't have to engage every comment.

I can promise you that your service here on this forum is very much appreciated.

You are a great teacher.

I have watched a lot of your videos - your very good at explaining things.

I know this is going to look vindictive but: <THWACK> again!!!!


John..

[Solstyse]

I only was rereading this thread because the other one told me too BAAAHH BAAHHH

[Bo Atkinson]

How many separate subjects can fit into a single thread? How many have suffered from one institution or another? Later on feel motivated to" throw it back" at what? Perhaps to save victimized believers from suspect beliefs? Or is it simply a free ride upon a popular member's thread? I expect the latter. Tony, perhaps let the hungry have this thread you started, but edit the thread name to secular sonata or such. Then re- start or migrate your posts to the new one. Tony, you have inspired secularists to think out loud, not a problem.

I suggest that the derailing villain of this thread is the matrix-challange of 'scarcity'. How can a hard secular subject be posted or discussed? Who would bother reading it, unless there was a prize or a laugh?

How can a group of humans prosper? Any time there is a big flow of thoughts or of money, as with any growing institution-- The varmints are attracted to the very core. After time passes, authoritarianism sets in, business as usual. The scarcity theme is pounded in whether through a pulpit or through bread and circuses. Who is really free of this box or this shell? Who dared break out? (Let's see one's lifestyle if one expects to qualify).

Of all the big isms, Buddhism has deflected this big-scarcity-model best, as part of it's popular teaching. Constantine and following emperors, by contrast, forged a 17 century secular tenure on much of our world and our ancestors... Empire ruled straight through and sponsored a little feudalism for fun. My point being that secularist purity has been equally twisted, point for point. To assume that academic secularism is completely true or unbiased, might also be a trap.

Welcome to the planet matrix, please pass the nut cracker sweetner.

Thanks Pie'n'eal

[PurpleLama]

No user has ever really offended me, nor have I ever felt harassed, but if I did, I can say one thing for certain, I'd hit the ignore user button so fast that people's heads would spin. Problem solved.

Take a break, Mr. Tony, and use the above mentioned button, instead of the unsubscribe button.

Tarka, please make sure he sees this, or at least relay the message.

Try. Fail. Breathe. Try again. See what happens.

[Tarka the Duck]

Try. Fail. Breathe. Try again. See what happens.

Such wise advice when it comes to this thing called life.
Thanks PL - message received...

[nearing]

First of all, I saw great value in Bollinger's posts. Second of all, perhaps this thread wasn't the place for him/her to post them (I for one would love to see a thread started by Bollinger based on those posts - very interesting!) Bollinger's very well written posts spoke to a more general theme of the value of religions, all religions, and he/she used Buddhism as a stepping off point for it. But the theme of this thread was clearly Buddhism itself in general, a discussion past the point of the value of religions.

I understand Tony's not wanting to deal with generalities of religion in his more specific Buddhism thread. But, on the other hand, no one can control the flow of discussion in a cocktail party nor in an online forum. People's minds will be sparked by something someone else says and they are free to say what they have thought of whether it stays precisely on the topic or not.

Perhaps this is more a test of Tony's beliefs. He is being challenged to let things roll off - let go of the tree roots and weeds on the sides of the river and let the river take him where it will, rather than drown in it trying to control it's flow. Follow the middle way...

Tony is of course, free to leave the forum but he is also free to let others have their voice while not engaging them. No one makes him respond to any one person. If he chose the later, those who come here to listen to what he has to say will benefit (because he hasn't left). At the same time, others may also benefit from hearing differing and opposing viewpoints (even though uninvited).

There. That was my 5 cents on the subject (2 cents aren't enough per inflation any longer)

[another bob]

Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)
The problem with dismissing all phenomena as" inherently insubstantial and empty" can be used as an excuse for irresponsible, harmful behaviour.

Oy Kathie!

Just to keep the context clear, I used that phrase in the same sense as one might say, "getting upset over nothing", which is actually a good description of this whole debacle. For example, you asked what I meant by a "snit", and my response was pointing to yours and Tony's disproportionate reactivity over a little nonsense piece that was merely intended to add some playful humor to the consideration. Judging by the pms I received, other members saw it that way too. If the two of you were not so invested in your polarized position, you might have likewise seen it as such, and simply moved on. Where's the demonstration of meditation in action? Instead, this whole ridiculous drama has been spawned, with teary farewells, pleas not to go, messages relayed from agrieved victim, and all the attendant poopadoodle witnessed ad nauseum on message boards like this over the years when some diva announces their swan song for some imagined slight.

The real question you both need to be asking yourself is, why are you so easily offended by the words and opinions of others? What does it say about your practice if your equanimity so quickly crumbles at the slightest whiff of a challenge? In this case, there wasn't even a challenge, but rather your own misunderstanding based on a misconception stemming from a mis-reading, that nevertheless sent Tony to his pulpit implying that I'm a demon (Mara, the Great Satan) out to ruin his idea of the Dharma, and you calling me venemous, and a "true nihilist" (as opposed to a false nihilist?) when I reached out to explain my intent.

When I first joined this forum, I was immediately jumped on by Tony, who took offense at some view I expressed about the nature of things that didn't line up with his own. We did exchange several emails, and I concluded by offering him the hand of friendship. Since then, I have made it a point to mostly stay out of his threads, even when I felt he was misrepresenting the Dharma that I've practiced probably longer than either of you. In any case, whether you stay or go matters little, but I do hope you are able to see something about what's behind all this, and what you are really trying to assert, protect and defend.