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Thread: Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.

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    United States Avalon Member another bob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.

    Quote Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
    Quote Posted by another bob (here)
    Quote Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
    By the way, I don't really get them either, but I also enjoy them tremendously...
    The great Poet Ikkyu once said, "The only koan is you!"

    Ramana suggested that the best method was simply to inquire, "Who am I?"

    The point was not to come up with some intellectual response, but to let the question act like a diamond drill, burrowing through layers of superimposed beliefs and notions, all temporary self-images, until finally reaching the live core at the heart, beyond mind's smoke screen. Only then could you recognize your true nature, stripped of all interpretation and conceptual encrustation.
    Oh yeah, I know their purpose, they're just not my cup of tea on the path of the ongoing awakening process. Now when you get into the realms of "The only koan is you", and the method of simply inquiring "who am I?", well now we're talking.


    In the Sanzen Room, where Zen Masters conduct such formal interviews with students, they require the student to answer with their whole being. Mere verbal play is rewarded with a quick dismissal, if lucky, or even a blow. At Mt. Baldy Zen Monastery, my first few months' answers to the initial koan he gave me were gently laughed off, and often I was dismissed before I could even open my mouth.

    After exhausting every conceivable approach, I was left with an interior devastation that I could not have imagined. Somehow, the inquiry proceeded regardless, on a level I had never known, nor can even now describe. More months followed, and I became very quiet, absorbed in an internal process deeper than thought.

    The thinking mind was breached early one morning during Kinhin (15 minute walking meditation interspersed between hour-long sitting sessions). It was during a sesshin (a week-long intense meditation interrupted by 4 visits a day with the Master) . As I walked in the slow procession, shivering in the predawn icy mountain chill, my heart suddenly welled up into my throat, and then something exploded there, and I was overtaken with convulsive sobs, so much so that I had to be led to the side to recover.

    All that I had cherished about any sense of self was obliterated in an instant -- as if it had never existed in the first place -- and I stood alone in the universe, which was nothing but my own immense body, within which an unspeakable silent perfection manifested as the immaculate nature of being itself. These are only words for something that words cannot touch.

    Tears come even now, in the recollection.

    For the next several hours, all I could do was weep with a relief that, again, cannot be described. When it was my turn to go before Roshi, I was still weeping. He took one look at me, skipped the usual demand for an answer to my koan, and smilingly broke into English with, "Ahhh, crying buddha!"

    I don't have much memory of the weeks that followed (it felt as if I was in a serene floating world, not even in a body), but about a month later, in Sanzen, when he finally asked for an answer to my koan, I spontaneously shot my arm up and shouted a monosyllabic reply that surprised both of us.

    He grinned and said, "So, the flower has finally begun to open!"

    Now I was ready to begin in earnest . . . .

    About a year later, I had reached a point in my practice in which even the overlay of “zen” on whatever this IS had simply become so excruciating that I walked out of my cabin in the middle of the night, dressed in my thin cotton robe in freezing weather, and not even giving a damn where I was off to.

    About an hour later I found myself way up the side of the mountain, well above the small monastery nestled below, but now vaguely heard the faint but growing sound of the monks and students beginning the morning sutra chants, and this infuriated me! I rolled around on the ground, threw rocks in the air, smashed logs into trees, and finally just sat down, numb.

    The chanting continued. I began to weep, not because of what the sutras were proclaiming, and not even because of the dearness of the fools down there going on in that strange fusion of one syllable Sanskrit and Japanese that constitutes the traditional zen chants, but just because …. Just because of what? Who the hell knows? I just wept. In those tears, it suddenly struck me how sweet the mountain air was, how fresh the morning breeze, how dazzling the vast blue sky! All my cares fell away like tattered old robes. I felt utterly clear, reborn, in love, but I didn’t know with whom, nor did it matter.

    Hours passed. I had stopped weeping and just sat there on a rock, with a huge grin on my face. I missed the morning Sanzen (interview with the master). Roshi sent someone out to look for me. Somehow, I knew this, I “experienced” Roshi beckoning me, so what the hell, who cares, I walked back down the mountain and eventually found myself kneeling in front of him in his room. He sat facing me, studying my face, it seemed, and assessing my state. For the first time, I had no interest in his remarks. Who cares? He’s a bald-headed little man with poor English. I said nothing. He looked at me, I looked at him. There was nothing happening. There had never been anything happening, except this ridiculous game of persona, and frankly, I couldn’t raise an idiot’s thought about any of it.

    Contrary to the pop-psych cliché, this was not a form of disassociation, although there were certainly aspects of it that would seem so. I had no “affect”, no sense of any movement in mind, just the immediacy of the moment, of bare attention. All my previous frustration had vanished, and I felt no relation to the person who had stormed up the side of the hill in the middle of the night. There was simply this, without any superimposition. It wasn’t zen, it wasn’t me, it wasn’t any of a thousand names we use to attempt the impossible – describing “this”. Nevertheless, it is no different than what is right now, these fingers typing away, your eyes glancing over the little dots and dashes, earth spinning around the sun, the galaxies turning in vastness, the same vastness that moves these fingers, your eye muscles, our heart.

    Roshi finally made a kind of grunt, nodded to me, and I got up and walked out of his room and into myself, and what that is I still can’t say with any words of men or gods, but it's certainly not a problem to be solved nor a riddle to be figured out, and that's fine with me.



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  3. Link to Post #3122
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    Default Re: Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.

    You are what you is.

    "The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend." -Henri Bergson

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  5. Link to Post #3123
    Avalon Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.

    Quote Posted by another bob (here)
    There was simply this, without any superimposition. It wasn’t zen, it wasn’t me, it wasn’t any of a thousand names we use to attempt the impossible – describing “this”. Nevertheless, it is no different than what is right now, these fingers typing away, your eyes glancing over the little dots and dashes, earth spinning around the sun, the galaxies turning in vastness, the same vastness that moves these fingers, your eye muscles, our heart.
    Beautiful story Bob, thank you for sharing that. This part above struck me as the true heart of the matter, which ever route one takes to get to that point. Just today while working, two thoughts were playing in my mind at the same time. One was how Zen masters just love to ask "Who Are You?" The other was how as of late I've become more and more loathe to label. Things, people, ideas, etc. Of course it still happens anyway, but much less than it used to now that the night watchman is on duty.

    The other corresponding thought was that once something is labeled, it becomes the equivalent of an eagle tied to the ground. Correct me if I'm wrong now, as I have zero formal Zen training, but I can just see the master smiling inwardly as grasshopper begins grasping for the right answer: "I am John Doe. No? Hmmmmm... I am a locksmith. Hmmmm...I am a human being. Hmmmm."
    Last edited by Fred Steeves; 24th May 2012 at 21:54.

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    United States Avalon Member another bob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.

    Quote Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
    ...I can just see the master smiling inwardly as grasshopper begins grasping for the right answer: "I am John Doe. No? Hmmmmm... I am a locksmith. Hmmmm...I am a human being. Hmmmm."
    Hehe, Brother -- you're heading in the right direction with that line of inquiry!

    "Discard all you are not and go ever deeper. Just as a man digging a
    well discards what is not water, until he reaches the water-bearing
    strata, so must you discard what is not your own, till nothing is
    left which you can disown. You will find that what is left is nothing
    which the mind can hook on to. You are not even a human being. You
    just are - a point of awareness, co-extensive with time and space and
    beyond both, the ultimate cause, itself uncaused." ~Sri Nisargadatta

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  9. Link to Post #3125
    Avalon Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.

    Quote Posted by another bob (here)
    Quote Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
    ...I can just see the master smiling inwardly as grasshopper begins grasping for the right answer: "I am John Doe. No? Hmmmmm... I am a locksmith. Hmmmm...I am a human being. Hmmmm."
    Hehe, Brother -- you're heading in the right direction with that line of inquiry!
    O.K. then, channeling the old and wily riverboat gambler part of "Fred", I'll see your call, and raise you one more Koan my friend. The teachings, even at their very highest and most pure, are nothing but springboards are they?
    Last edited by Fred Steeves; 24th May 2012 at 22:55.

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    United States Avalon Member another bob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.

    Quote Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
    Quote Posted by another bob (here)
    Quote Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
    ...I can just see the master smiling inwardly as grasshopper begins grasping for the right answer: "I am John Doe. No? Hmmmmm... I am a locksmith. Hmmmm...I am a human being. Hmmmm."
    Hehe, Brother -- you're heading in the right direction with that line of inquiry!
    O.K. then, channeling the old and wily riverboat gambler part of "Fred", I'll see your call, and raise you one more Koan my friend. The teachings, even at their very highest and most pure, are nothing but springboards are they?
    Sure, they are certainly not ends in themselves, but rather like rafts. Once you cross over the water, you have no further use or need for the raft. One might also see them as a thorn used to remove a thorn. Once its done its job, it too can be discarded as obsolete. My koan now is simply, what serves the best outcome for all, in the midst of any given situation? If I have to think about it, that simply means there is still baggage I'm toting around. It gets very subtle as we go along.

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    Default Re: Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.

    Quote Posted by another bob (here)
    My koan now is simply, what serves the best outcome for all, in the midst of any given situation? If I have to think about it, that simply means there is still baggage I'm toting around. It gets very subtle as we go along.
    Out f*****g standing!!! Down to just one koan. I'm seeing the Ouroboros eat it's way up towards the head, until there's nothing left. When the baggage is finally devoured (released), the head disappears.

    What then? I think that's referred to as stepping boldly off the proverbial cliff. Or is it just the next cliff?

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    Default Re: Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.

    Quote Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
    Quote Posted by another bob (here)
    My koan now is simply, what serves the best outcome for all, in the midst of any given situation? If I have to think about it, that simply means there is still baggage I'm toting around. It gets very subtle as we go along.
    Out f*****g standing!!! Down to just one koan. I'm seeing the Ouroboros eat it's way up towards the head, until there's nothing left. When the baggage is finally devoured (released), the head disappears.

    What then? I think that's referred to as stepping boldly off the proverbial cliff. Or is it just the next cliff?
    Close -- it's called "stepping off the 100 ft. pole". What fun -- nothing below to break your fall, nothing above your shoulders but sky. Weeeee!

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    Default Re: Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.

    Quote Posted by PurpleLama (here)
    "When am I?" is the one that gives me the most trouble.
    *laughing*

    I have that *all* the time, heh heh heh, with various effects. It's annoying when one misses one's own eldest son's birthday because one can't remember what month it is, let alone what day, which is what happened last year.

    I'm getting better with knowing what year it is, after 47 years of being here.
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    United States Avalon Member Dennis Leahy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.

    Quote Posted by another bob (here)
    ... I had no “affect”, no sense of any movement in mind, just the immediacy of the moment, of bare attention. All my previous frustration had vanished, and I felt no relation to the person who had stormed up the side of the hill in the middle of the night. There was simply this, without any superimposition. It wasn’t zen, it wasn’t me, it wasn’t any of a thousand names we use to attempt the impossible – describing “this”. Nevertheless, it is no different than what is right now, these fingers typing away, your eyes glancing over the little dots and dashes, earth spinning around the sun, the galaxies turning in vastness, the same vastness that moves these fingers, your eye muscles, our heart.
    ...
    Decades ago, I swallowed a lot of black beans, (Zen 'fascicles', Blue Cliff Record, Original Teachings of Ch'an Buddhism,...), tried to find stillness in meditation (never got to a deep state while deliberately sitting zazen indoors, only when out in semi-wilderness - and always melting non-deliberately), and eventually gave up trying to 'force' some flavor of Buddhist "enlightenment." I think I was too lazy. Too interested in women, mind-altering substances, and music (sex and drugs and ...folk music?) to actually put forth the effort to deliberately achieve any state of consciousness that was similar to what I imagined by reading tales of monks making breakthroughs into samadhi or advanced jhana states (like yours.)

    Most of what I read was about monks and masters from a thousand years ago, and kinda wondered how applicable it was to modern critters like us. Apparently, quite applicable. Your story brought a grin to my face, Bob.

    :~)

    Dennis
    We are either filled with compassion, or we are empty.

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    United States Avalon Member another bob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.

    Dennis, it's like Krishna told Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita --

    Out of millions, only a few will make the effort. Out of those, only a few will succeed.

    When I look at my Mate, sometimes I'm ashamed at how selfish and backward I am. Then I see that's all just more baggage too. At least I can catch it pretty quick, before falling into identification with bozo the clown states.

    Basically, Liberation can happen here and now, except for our interest in other things, as you've humbly pointed out.

    Moreover, we can't fight with our interests, but rather need to go with them, and see what they're really all about, until they reveal themselves as mere errors of judgment and appreciation (to paraphase one of my Teachers).



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    Default Re: Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.

    Quote Posted by WhiteCrowBlackDeer (here)
    Hello songsfortheotherkind,


    I combed through at least fifty pages of the thread this morning trying to find the one with the list of critical dates you had coming up for May. I couldn’t find it so, I’m working from memory. (Your Child’s 2nd anniversary?) You’ve been in my thoughts. And if I’m wrong, gulp! I am sorry in advance.

    She scampers out holding her breath, hoping the voice inside was correct when it said, “Go ahead. Post!”
    ..........................................

    Peace and hearts,
    WhiteCrowBlackDeer

    UPDATE: If this is incorrect, I'll delete ASAP.
    *settles on a nearby rock, folding wings around me tightly*

    Yes, your instincts were right about the dates and it's lovely of you to remember. It has been a rollercoaster six weeks: death dates on the 13th (nanna), 26th (brother) and 30th April (mum), birthdays on the 9th April (3rd son), 11th (second daughter), 27th (grandson) and 31st (Krystal), then her death date on the 9th of June. Mothers day smack in the middle, which isn't a great day for me because she was the one who made a big deal of it. Lydia's death date on the 9th of September.

    Thanks so much for the thoughts. While I know that all is cool with the ones that aren't here anymore, they're not here anymore and I miss hugging my daughters. In the end, it's ok, and it's the time of year when I remember those that aren't in my arms anymore. I am going to take some time out for Krystal's birth and death days. She would have been 29 this year.

    No doubt she would have still been the wildest horse in my little herd.
    Hello. If this post does not appear normal to you, please consult your normality provider for an upgrade.

    All my writing flows from my subjective and autonomous perspective. External agreement, heteronomy or homogeny is utterly unnecessary: the reader's subjective assumptions and interpretations are the reader's own responsibility.

    I'm non-human. I will not permit any individual to District 9 me regarding this.

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    United States Avalon Member Paula's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.

    To songsfortheotherkind:

    Quote *settles on a nearby rock, folding wings around me tightly* big arm hug.
    ..............................................

    Quote No doubt she would have still been the wildest horse in my little herd.
    Rock on Krystal! I send an early Happy Rebirth Day, to you!

    And Lydia, since there's only illusionary tick-tock, I say early, early Happy Rebirth Day to you, too!

    Ya, Mom's doing a bang up Sui Generis job! (Shhhh! Please don't ask me what sui generis means, cuz I still haven't purchased that bigger dictionary.)


    Big family hugs. Ready? 1, 2, 3...
    And one more time..................................................

    Quote Posted by songsfortheotherkind (here)
    Quote Posted by WhiteCrowBlackDeer (here)
    Hello songsfortheotherkind,
    I combed through at least fifty pages of the thread this morning trying to find the one with the list of critical dates you had coming up for May. I couldn’t find it so, I’m working from memory.
    .............................
    Peace and hearts,
    WhiteCrowBlackDeer
    *settles on a nearby rock, folding wings around me tightly*
    Yes, your instincts were right about the dates and it's lovely of you to remember. It has been a rollercoaster six weeks: death dates on the 13th (nanna), 26th (brother) and 30th April (mum), birthdays on the 9th April (3rd son), 11th (second daughter), 27th (grandson) and 31st (Krystal), then her death date on the 9th of June. Mothers day smack in the middle, which isn't a great day for me because she was the one who made a big deal of it. Lydia's death date on the 9th of September.

    Thanks so much for the thoughts. While I know that all is cool with the ones that aren't here anymore, they're not here anymore and I miss hugging my daughters. In the end, it's ok, and it's the time of year when I remember those that aren't in my arms anymore. I am going to take some time out for Krystal's birth and death days. She would have been 29 this year.

    No doubt she would have still been the wildest horse in my little herd.
    Last edited by Paula; 25th May 2012 at 02:25.
    "Relinquishing a desire does not mean that you won't get what you want.
    It merely clears the way for it to happen." Dr. David R. Hawkins

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    Default Re: Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.

    Quote Posted by another bob (here)
    Dennis, it's like Krishna told Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita --




    In all actuality, you had to be there, on the grasslands where the battle occurred. The real point of the statement, lost over these eons of time, is that every being makes it, every being really belongs to him, every one from the beginning, until the end. I've a feeling when you get around to it, you will see him face to face. When you do, tell him I said "hi" and we will all have a good laugh.
    Last edited by REILLY; 25th May 2012 at 02:05.
    The above post is either satire or parody.
    It is entirely fictitious.

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    United States Avalon Member Cerridwen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.

    So I found and took three different free Myers Briggs personality tests, and on all three I came up an INFP. *Laughing* I knew what Onawah posted sounded an awful lot like me. We're called 'The Idealist'.

    Here's a link to one of the tests http://net2.com/mb/profile.php I like the detailed info about the 'types' given after.

    Here's another http://similarminds.com/jung.html This one was a bit easier for me to take. I liked the way the questions were asked better, but the explanations weren't as good.

    I'd be curious what other 'types' are here at the Pub.

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    United States I [re] Member Calz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.

    Quote Posted by Cerridwen (here)
    I'd be curious what other 'types' are here at the Pub.
    Me???

    GorBWVBG type ...

    [Green or Blue With Very Bad Grammar]


    Listened intently for the Sound of One Hand Clapping ... only to hear the sound of the other hand Whacking me Upside the Head!

    Don't forget to take the time each day to smile.

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    United States Avalon Member Dennis Leahy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.

    Quote Posted by Cerridwen (here)
    ... Myers Briggs personality tests... I came up an INFP. . We're called 'The Idealist'.

    ...

    I'd be curious what other 'types' are here at the Pub.
    ENFP ("Idealist, Champion") [maybe they meant "delusions of grandeur"?] hahahahahaha

    Dennis
    We are either filled with compassion, or we are empty.

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    United States Avalon Member another bob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.

    Quote Posted by PurpleLama (here)
    I've a feeling when you get around to it, you will see him face to face. When you do, tell him I said "hi" and we will all have a good laugh.
    You Are He! He Are You! You Am Me! I Am We! We Already Happy! We Already Free! Hey Ho, Ain't It So!

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    Avalon Member
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    Default Re: Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.



    Back in the days when the christian religious crusaders were smearing their religious heteronomy over the faces of the nature worshippers, they would smash the sacred groves, hammer crosses into the ground, splash holy water in the sacred pools while the priests chanted to cast out the energies; they would invade the homes of practitioners and haul them out to denunciation and condemnation by the 'keepers of the faith', those purveyors and servants of the heteronomy, with their stories of moral, racial and spiritual superiority. That energy fueled the crusades, and now fuels the jihads and terrorisms, both muslim, christian, buddhist and secular; they invade each other's sacred spaces, paint their symbols, chant their prayers, bomb the infidels and dissenters. Sui generis and autonomy has its throat cut again and again on a daily basis, all over the planet: it is nothing new, it's been going on since the first homo sapiens were created.



    The secular arm has developed other potent weapons: psychiatry and intellectualism, rationalisation and superiority based on argument and 'rightness'. In none of these do sui generis live: look how the life spark is processed out of children through the schooling system, with derision, suppression, put downs, hierarchies of superiority, domination through physical and intellectual control and punishment (in whatever flavour is favoured in the moment), the institutionalised and rationalised superiority that replaces the inner knowing of the individual Being with the smoothly virus laden and denaturing mind blibble of rationalised heteronomy.



    Psychiatry, the medical profession and all the other similarly control inspired institutions work the same way.







    All the engineered methods of control and mutation, against the inner knowing and expression, against the experience of the singular individual, the weight of the absolute truth of the flat earth because everyone knew it was so- Galileo's great heresy regarding the sun, the murder of thinkers and visionaries revolving from one end of the spectrum to the other, first the scientists, then the mystics. Now we have the fusions that are designed to take out multiple targets with one arm- the secular and rationalist nature of the 'new' spirituality; the spiritual psychologists that seek to define the mystical into sound bite sized tv dinner servings, packaged for convenience and with clear instructions so that one doesn't make the mistake of coloring outside the lines, or daring to have purple trees, cerulian skies and rainbow eyed dragons.

    Abysmally uninspired, without spirit or intelligence, designed to rob anything living of its signal of life: that is the foundation of those ways of being. There are reasons for that, I'm going to go into those later, but for now suffice to say that I have no interest in the systems that seek to drain and divert the autonomy into another cleverly crafted heteronomy, external authority systems on every level.



    I Am. That is the beginning of every Creator. That's what I'm interested in. I'm interested in the sui generis of the Being, in singularity, in expression, in experience. I'm not interested in neatly castrated minds that conform with slack jawed obedience to the programming, no matter where it's come from and how impressive the apparent authority.

    I'm not interested in that path. I'm here to sing Songs for the Otherkind, the co-creators and bearers of the cosmic signal of creation and life. Let the dead bury their own dead.

    Now I'm going to go explore and write about that some more. :D
    Last edited by songsfortheotherkind; 25th May 2012 at 06:55.
    Hello. If this post does not appear normal to you, please consult your normality provider for an upgrade.

    All my writing flows from my subjective and autonomous perspective. External agreement, heteronomy or homogeny is utterly unnecessary: the reader's subjective assumptions and interpretations are the reader's own responsibility.

    I'm non-human. I will not permit any individual to District 9 me regarding this.

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    Avalon Member Katyani's Avatar
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    Default Re: Welcome to The Pub At the End of the Universe.

    Quote Posted by Cerridwen (here)

    I'd be curious what other 'types' are here at the Pub.
    That's a good question! : )
    A while back, I was wondering about various blood types, but, considering the type of forum we're on, inquiring about that could easily be misunderstood : )
    Seriously though, I wonder if there could be any validity to the supposed link between the type of diet that's especially beneficial to a person, and their blood type. In my case, I have type AB negative and thrive on a lacto vegetarian/vegan diet, which, according to some quick googling, seemed to fit into the diet-blood type theory. I'm also slightly hemophobic, just writing blood makes me a bit uneasy. Thought I'd mention that, just in case..

    WhiteCrowBlackDeer, thank you so much for the root beer, that was very considerate of you. And delicious. Next time, it's my treat.
    Sapphire smoothies for everyone!

    Songs, I'm so glad you're here to sing your songs.
    I had a special dream a few nights ago. We were in 'Amsterdam', although I think that was just shorthand dream symbolism for a place already below sea level. It looked nothing like 3D Amsterdam. We were in a cafe' - not a coffeehouse : ) I rolled my eyes and sighed a couple of times, waiting for you. You were busy ordering this and that from the menu, talking on the phone etc. We were on our way to this place at the bottom of the sea. I knew some people who had already been there, and was full of expectations. This place was it. Finally, we faced each other, holding hands, and began the journey. The water was lovely, warm and with shimmering shades of green. I had taken a deep breath to last me until the sea floor, but midway, I realized it wouldn't hold all the way. At that point, I began to breathe, a different kind of oxygen. It was easy, very fresh and invigorating.
    I don't know if we reached that place, it may take a couple of more dreams.

    Last edited by Katyani; 25th May 2012 at 09:41.

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