AVALON forever!!!! (Another "what's wrong with this forum" rant)

[another bob]

Posted by Ba-ba-Ra (here)
NIETZSCHE: "GOD IS DEAD"

GOD: "NIETZSCHE IS DEAD"


I hope you get my point!

[Cilka]

The reason why I joined this forum is because I have been interested in Kerry's and Bill's work for a very long time. Both of them have done truly a fantastic work in bringing in all kinds of people with incredible stories to tell, not all of them true but they all need to be told in order to find the truth. Both of them are very unique in their interviewieving skills, are very professional, they are very respectful to their guests and freedom of speech is what both of them truly believe in and they practise it in their work as well.

I grew up in a communist country and have lived in a capitalist country for the past 30 years and I have to say that I have experienced way less of freedom under the capitalist regime than under the communist one. I can confirm this because I lived through both regimes, my experiences do not come from reading books. So, I truly value freedom of speech and would never want to participate in the restrictions of what can or cannot be said her in this forum or outside of it.

Having said that, the reason I am not enjoying myself in discussing the various threads here is that I have different takes on what is being discussed here. At the beginning I used to respond more but it seems that people are not interested in responding to what I wrote, so there is no point in writing words that are empty for others when they read them. That does not bother me, it actually confirms to me that yes I am different, that's all.

It also seems that a lot of the members here are new to the ET phenomena, and have not done enough of research on all kinds of topics that affect our life on this planet. It truly is not enough to just listen to what Ed Dames says that will happen, or what Wilcock says is the truth of our universe or what Hoagland says is happening to comet Elenin etc. All these people are trying to find the truth just like the rest of us, but we wont find it in one or a few individuals with brillians minds either. It takes a lot of research to find at least one clue to the puzzle. The whole mess that we find outselves in today is incredible complex, and it is complex on purpose so that those who do want to figure this game out will have an incredibly hard time to accomplish this task. THat is why it is important that more and more people get involved in this project. But instead of getting involved, they get stuck in one individual who said this or that, and that what the individuals said has been written in stone and therefore it must be the truth. Sometimes we come across something that we discover that resonates with us on all levels, but then something happens, IF WE ARE OPEN MINDED, and that information does not resonate with us any longer because our higher self has discovered the truth that our physical brains did not know at the time. That is called progress. Being open minded is the most important skill we must have, otherwise we get left behind, and we dont have much time.

We must be open minded or we lose our way in our search for the truth. We must respect each other because we never know what we may one day learn from each other. Maybe someone will say something today that can be used a year later to put the puzzle together, only if we are open minded. If we immediately make up our mind about someone that he or she is telling bull at this instance, then we are restricting ourselves for the future.

So, lets not restrict our freedom of speech here in this forum. Let us come up with more interesting topics we call all discuss.

[Snowbird]

I came to PA to learn and that is exactly what has transpired. The information here on PA is like no other forum that I have visited or belonged to. This one is different. This one is informed and we are all learning together at our own paces.

This forum's conflicts are really no different than in real life. This is because of what we are going into and through currently. Change is the big word here. Change is not always easy to get through. But I have heard that what is really important is how we react to change. Stop and consider just how difficult it is for a group of people to get along when each person is changing at a different rate and their circumstances are totally unique. That is exactly what is happening on this forum. We are all/each in the flux of change....and it has only just begun folks.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Posted by another bob (here)

Posted by Ba-ba-Ra (here)
NIETZSCHE: "GOD IS DEAD"

GOD: "NIETZSCHE IS DEAD"


I hope you get my point!

ok, that one made me burst out laughing.

[Alie]

Posted by Carmody (here)
regarding Bill's absence on the forum:

There is no such thing as leadership.

Lead yourself, please.

That's the whole point of existing in an avatar.

Personal responsibility... and that.....has exactly ZERO to do with the idea of leadership.

Leadership is part of the problem.

Carmody, I disagree with you. Leadership is important. Leading yourself is a completely different topic. That is what I think this very diverse group of Avalonians are trying to do --- trying to lead themselves on their own Life Journey, so that is definitely an individual endeavor. But if you say there is no such thing as leadership, I think that a group of people without leadership becomes lawless and tyrannical. What's wrong with shepherding, mentorship, servanthood. That kind of leadership helps navigate the terrain.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Posted by Delight (here)
Truth can be found anywhere and it can be mixed up with untruth and still valid.

There were two references to the mind virus and a new link posted to Paul Levy on Redice. You may have noticed that at the same time there is heightened emotion here about kinds of information and responses to others' responses that lead to frustration and discord, there are SEVERAL people in the zeitgeist who are bringing up the point that when our minds are being used, none of our thoughts are reliable as our own. I want feedback to know when my thoughts are way off base. How can that happen with no feedback?

Feedback, exactly. Tackling the mind virus/wetiko phenomenon is one of my passions, for various reasons. It seems pretty straightforward to me that any process intended to drag the deliberately hidden and murky out into the light where it can be examined is going to result in that thing lashing out. Even a worm squirms when you pull it out of the soil- these programs and manipulations we're beginning to bring out have been lurking about under the surface for eons, they're going to resist the process- which shows up in the hosts as dissonance, conflict, resistance etc. So, if the manifestations of some of the expressions here on the forum are echoing this, then I personally view it as things being on exactly the right track. :D

[Carmody]

Posted by Alie (here)

Posted by Carmody (here)
regarding Bill's absence on the forum:

There is no such thing as leadership.

Lead yourself, please.

That's the whole point of existing in an avatar.

Personal responsibility... and that.....has exactly ZERO to do with the idea of leadership.

Leadership is part of the problem.

Carmody, I disagree with you. Leadership is important. Leading yourself is a completely different topic. That is what I think this very diverse group of Avalonians are trying to do --- trying to lead themselves on their own Life Journey, so that is definitely an individual endeavor. But if you say there is no such thing as leadership, I think that a group of people without leadership becomes lawless and tyrannical. What's wrong with shepherding, mentorship, servanthood. That kind of leadership helps navigate the terrain.

My point was the one of leadership -- concerning this aspect:

"When you're one step ahead of the crowd you're a genius. When you're two steps ahead, you're a crackpot." --Rabbi Shlomo Riskin

..and the dangers involved - therein. How leadership can be and is convoluted, separated, distanced.... to the point that people will sit down and read the paper about a war, while sipping their latte. The dangers of allowing such idealization to become who they are, what they are. To project into, instead of experience. To take direction, from an unknown or unrealized position.

"Human, govern thineself." And if one always moves to leadership as a thing that is seeked out, then the self never emerges. Only a carbon copy of movement and motions in a skein of knowing that has little to nothing to do with knowing and being. The dogmatic origins of religion, for example. "Those who can't --teach", they say. And thus their ignorance becomes dogma, detached from knowing and experiencing.

This can be seen in the act, when Bill comes to the forum, at times. Some reverse it and attack Bill, some overdo it in the other direction and fawn all over their leadership pretensions that are thrust upon him.

I'm sometimes embarrassed for those who indulge in either direction. It is difficult to read their posts, to not grimace when seeing them misdirect themselves over what is essentially nothing but their own projections. Projections, that most times...are coming from not living in the depths of their own selves (as an act of self clearing).

[songsfortheotherkind]

Posted by Alie (here)
Carmody, I disagree with you. Leadership is important. Leading yourself is a completely different topic. That is what I think this very diverse group of Avalonians are trying to do --- trying to lead themselves on their own Life Journey, so that is definitely an individual endeavor. But if you say there is no such thing as leadership, I think that a group of people without leadership becomes lawless and tyrannical. What's wrong with shepherding, mentorship, servanthood. That kind of leadership helps navigate the terrain.

For those who have experience with tackling the mind virus, 'leadership' is one of the seemingly innocuous concepts that actually carry some very vile offshoots. Your assumption that a group without leadership will become lawless and tyrannical carries within it many other assumptions- that individuals are, like religion suggests, essentially 'corrupt' and 'need' guidance in order to not fall back into their 'lawless' true nature; that there must therefore be a class of 'leaders', those who for some reason or another are free of such corruption and who therefore have the 'right' to lead; that leadership is possible without the gradual disempowerment of those being 'led'; that such leadership does not devolve into domination over time- for me, there are too many dormant spores of mindvirus in such an approach for me to consider it a useful way to go.

What to me *is* useful is example- here I am, embracing my Sui Generis and that of all other sentient Beings, striving in every moment to dissolve the mindvirus spores, seedlings and effects within me, holding that space so that perhaps others so inclined have a possible general map or place of beginning for their own endeavours in the same area. I have no interest in being a 'leader' and every passion in being one source of antidote- as incomplete as it currently is- to the condition I see around me. I do this by paying attention foremost to my *own* internal landscape, the promptings of my *own* guides and intuitions- I have guides, yes, *and* they don't do 'leadership' either, they are lovingly holding their *own* space so that I can map what they are doing and apply what is relevant and useful to my own path. None of us has any interest in anything but the full Sui Generis expression of the other, in any moment- there is, to me, a vast difference between loving support in the moment and the idea that I am in any way in need of a 'leader'.

To me, these are deeply important distinctions.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Posted by Carmody (here)

Posted by Alie (here)

Posted by Carmody (here)
regarding Bill's absence on the forum:

There is no such thing as leadership.

Lead yourself, please.

That's the whole point of existing in an avatar.

Personal responsibility... and that.....has exactly ZERO to do with the idea of leadership.

Leadership is part of the problem.

Carmody, I disagree with you. Leadership is important. Leading yourself is a completely different topic. That is what I think this very diverse group of Avalonians are trying to do --- trying to lead themselves on their own Life Journey, so that is definitely an individual endeavor. But if you say there is no such thing as leadership, I think that a group of people without leadership becomes lawless and tyrannical. What's wrong with shepherding, mentorship, servanthood. That kind of leadership helps navigate the terrain.

My point was the one of leadership -- concerning this aspect:

"When you're one step ahead of the crowd you're a genius. When you're two steps ahead, you're a crackpot." --Rabbi Shlomo Riskin

..and the dangers involved - therein. How leadership can be and is convoluted, separated, distanced.... to the point that people will sit down and read the paper about a war, while sipping their latte. The dangers of allowing such idealization to become who they are, what they are. To project into, instead of experience. To take direction, from an unknown or unrealized position.

"Human, govern thineself." And if one always moves to leadership as a thing that is seeked out, then the self never emerges. Only a carbon copy of movement and motions in a skein of knowing that has little to nothing to do with knowing and being. The dogmatic origins of religion, for example. "Those who can't --teach", they say. And thus their ignorance becomes dogma, detached from knowing and experiencing.

This can be seen in the act, when Bill comes to the forum, at times. Some reverse it and attack Bill, some overdo it in the other direction and fawn all over their leadership pretensions that are thrust upon him.

I'm sometimes embarrassed for those who indulge in either direction. It is difficult to read their posts, to not grimace when seeing them misdirect themselves over what is essentially nothing but their own projections. Projections, that most times...are coming from not living in the depths of their own selves (as an act of self clearing).

I deeply appreciate your perspective on this subject. I'm also deeply appreciative that, at least in this moment, there's a discussion being had about some of the possible evidences of manifestation of viral-infected thinking- to me, these sorts of discussions are where the evolution is definitely moving around in interesting and powerful ways. :D

[Alie]

Well I understand the point you are trying to make Carmody & Songsfortheotherkind. But there are assumptions that you are making ... That humans have the discipline to navigate through society on their own, self directed and respectful to all that are in their space. That certainly would be the ideal. But until most people are able to live that way (and I certainly am the first one to say I don't do it well), then I believe leadership is important.

There's no easy answer, because leadership is servanthood --- serving the people by encouraging them to reach their very best and highest potential. I don't think there are too many people that would/could lead that way ... so in that regards, you could be right.

[Cilka]

Carmody, I disagree with you. Leadership is important. Leading yourself is a completely different topic. That is what I think this very diverse group of Avalonians are trying to do --- trying to lead themselves on their own Life Journey, so that is definitely an individual endeavor. But if you say there is no such thing as leadership, I think that a group of people without leadership becomes lawless and tyrannical. What's wrong with shepherding, mentorship, servanthood. That kind of leadership helps navigate the terrain.[/QUOTE]

Alie, I have to disagree with you totally. I consider myself a grown up woman, and therefore I dont need a daddy or mommy telling me what to think. There is a lot wrong with shepherding any nation, especially when you consider the kind of leaderships that this world has encountered over the years. Bill has his own work that is keeping him busy enough, I would assume that the little time he has left in the day he would not want to waste it on babysitting those who do not want to be responsible for their actions.

I think that people seriously need to grow up and take responsibility for their own actions. It is really not that scary to be a grown up. Try it and I will bet that you will grow to love it, and in fact even crave it.

[Alie]

Posted by Cilka (here)
Carmody, I disagree with you. Leadership is important. Leading yourself is a completely different topic. That is what I think this very diverse group of Avalonians are trying to do --- trying to lead themselves on their own Life Journey, so that is definitely an individual endeavor. But if you say there is no such thing as leadership, I think that a group of people without leadership becomes lawless and tyrannical. What's wrong with shepherding, mentorship, servanthood. That kind of leadership helps navigate the terrain.

Alie, I have to disagree with you totally. I consider myself a grown up woman, and therefore I dont need a daddy or mommy telling me what to think. There is a lot wrong with shepherding any nation, especially when you consider the kind of leaderships that this world has encountered over the years. Bill has his own work that is keeping him busy enough, I would assume that the little time he has left in the day he would not want to waste it on babysitting those who do not want to be responsible for their actions.

I think that people seriously need to grow up and take responsibility for their own actions. It is really not that scary to be a grown up. Try it and I will bet that you will grow to love it, and in fact even crave it.

Well I am not talking about Bill here. I was talking about leadership in general. I would assume that I am just like you and all the other women here. Grown up. Taking full responsibility for myself and my family. Independent. Think for myself kind of person.

Of course people need to "grow up", so what? They can't/won't for the most part. So in the mean time ... what? Like a traffic circle with any car coming and going without direction? Maybe you're talking about a place that is yet to be - the ideal place of ascension. If you are then I can certainly say that is what and where I want to end up, and am working towards. But for now --- I'm not in that world.

And for this very second, I'm participating in a forum of many folks. Some may want to be led, others not. My opinion is that good, benevolent leadership is a good thing. Yours is different than mine. That's ok with me.

[songsfortheotherkind]

[Delight]

Posted by Alie (here)

Posted by Cilka (here)
Carmody, I disagree with you. Leadership is important. Leading yourself is a completely different topic. That is what I think this very diverse group of Avalonians are trying to do --- trying to lead themselves on their own Life Journey, so that is definitely an individual endeavor. But if you say there is no such thing as leadership, I think that a group of people without leadership becomes lawless and tyrannical. What's wrong with shepherding, mentorship, servanthood. That kind of leadership helps navigate the terrain.

Alie, I have to disagree with you totally. I consider myself a grown up woman, and therefore I dont need a daddy or mommy telling me what to think. There is a lot wrong with shepherding any nation, especially when you consider the kind of leaderships that this world has encountered over the years. Bill has his own work that is keeping him busy enough, I would assume that the little time he has left in the day he would not want to waste it on babysitting those who do not want to be responsible for their actions.

I think that people seriously need to grow up and take responsibility for their own actions. It is really not that scary to be a grown up. Try it and I will bet that you will grow to love it, and in fact even crave it.

Well I am not talking about Bill here. I was talking about leadership in general. I would assume that I am just like you and all the other women here. Grown up. Taking full responsibility for myself and my family. Independent. Think for myself kind of person.

Of course people need to "grow up", so what? They can't/won't for the most part. So in the mean time ... what? Like a traffic circle with any car coming and going without direction? Maybe you're talking about a place that is yet to be - the ideal place of ascension. If you are then I can certainly say that is what and where I want to end up, and am working towards. But for now --- I'm not in that world.

And for this very second, I'm participating in a forum of many folks. Some may want to be led, others not. My opinion is that good, benevolent leadership is a good thing. Yours is different than mine. That's ok with me.

I know I am new to the forum and I may be confused about the general understanding of purpose for Avalon. I thought it is an informational forum? Sincerely other than the diverging opinions and the occasional emotional interplays, what is the "problem" that needs a leadership solution? What is the Avalon purpose that is in need of "leadership"?

Certainly it would be antithetical to "freedom of expression" to expect a leader would tell us what to think, what to post or say (except in the general guidelines).
My observation is that the forum has moderators who do intervene if the behavior of a person becomes verbally offensive. Then there is a set of guidelines about "whole sale" cut and paste.

There are people leading by example: those able to articulate points well, or who are wayshowers or charismatic in some way. Is there a point that I am missing? Maggie

[Alie]

Posted by Delight (here)

Posted by Alie (here)

Posted by Cilka (here)
Carmody, I disagree with you. Leadership is important. Leading yourself is a completely different topic. That is what I think this very diverse group of Avalonians are trying to do --- trying to lead themselves on their own Life Journey, so that is definitely an individual endeavor. But if you say there is no such thing as leadership, I think that a group of people without leadership becomes lawless and tyrannical. What's wrong with shepherding, mentorship, servanthood. That kind of leadership helps navigate the terrain.

Alie, I have to disagree with you totally. I consider myself a grown up woman, and therefore I dont need a daddy or mommy telling me what to think. There is a lot wrong with shepherding any nation, especially when you consider the kind of leaderships that this world has encountered over the years. Bill has his own work that is keeping him busy enough, I would assume that the little time he has left in the day he would not want to waste it on babysitting those who do not want to be responsible for their actions.

I think that people seriously need to grow up and take responsibility for their own actions. It is really not that scary to be a grown up. Try it and I will bet that you will grow to love it, and in fact even crave it.

Well I am not talking about Bill here. I was talking about leadership in general. I would assume that I am just like you and all the other women here. Grown up. Taking full responsibility for myself and my family. Independent. Think for myself kind of person.

Of course people need to "grow up", so what? They can't/won't for the most part. So in the mean time ... what? Like a traffic circle with any car coming and going without direction? Maybe you're talking about a place that is yet to be - the ideal place of ascension. If you are then I can certainly say that is what and where I want to end up, and am working towards. But for now --- I'm not in that world.

And for this very second, I'm participating in a forum of many folks. Some may want to be led, others not. My opinion is that good, benevolent leadership is a good thing. Yours is different than mine. That's ok with me.

I know I am new to the forum and I may be confused about the general understanding of purpose for Avalon. I thought it is an informational forum? Sincerely other than the diverging opinions and the occasional emotional interplays, what is the "problem" that needs a leadership solution? What is the Avalon purpose that is in need of "leadership"?

Certainly it would be antithetical to "freedom of expression" to expect a leader would tell us what to think, what to post or say (except in the general guidelines).
My observation is that the forum has moderators who do intervene if the behavior of a person becomes verbally offensive. Then there is a set of guidelines about "whole sale" cut and paste.

There are people leading by example: those able to articulate points well, or who are wayshowers or charismatic in some way. Is there a point that I am missing? Maggie

Wow! I look forward to the rest of the thread- I know I've made my point so I'll quit trying to elaborate. You do not agree with me. You view leadership differently than I do. I appreciate your view point, which is simply different than mine.

[VaughnB]

Not being a member for long, I don't have much perspective, I see much on the conspiracy front, criticism, might be well to junk the entire forum; start over with some new topical headings like health, media, technology, spirituality, karma, celebration, laughter, welcome, no general discussion.

Has been going downhill the last several months with negativity, i'm considering leaving since i don't come on much anymore as well.

[Carmody]

Evolution is a process not a red button that gets hit with expectation.

It can only move as fast as the mind can alter itself--- physically.

Which is a slow thing. Years, in fact. At a minimum. Usually in the decades range.

Prior to that 'final' change in the individual (which actually never ends, it is a flow, a process, ongoing and into the next life), will be layers of clearing that will be paranoid, angry, shouty, itchy, mean, unpredictable, sappy, sad, happy, everything under the sun, in extremes and in no particular order.

That is the way of things.

If one never starts, they will never get there.

An angry negative forum, is merely a beginning, nothing more.

[ViralSpiral]

Posted by VaughnB (here)
Not being a member for long, I don't have much perspective, I see much on the conspiracy front, criticism, might be well to junk the entire forum; start over with some new topical headings like health, media, technology, spirituality, karma, celebration, laughter, welcome, no general discussion.

Has been going downhill the last several months with negativity, i'm considering leaving since i don't come on much anymore as well.

Words have power.....

[MargueriteBee]

Thank you for starting this thread Corson, it brought me back to the forum. I realized that I have something positive to contribute. I will start a thread on that tomorrow.

Best Wishes, Marguerite

[9eagle9]

I hate to remind people that this is forum where things of a 'negative' nature are posted daily, even by those who proclaim they are sick of the negativity.

Some topics on the forum posted daily are in the nature of enforced population control, malignant ETs and other entities, chemtrails, corruption of politics, church, state, Creating artifical economies, covert attacks by the ptb upon the general populace via media, EM and mind control. Just to name a few.

It is beyond my comprehension that this forum was created to explicitly examine negative issues of this nature and all the while people bawling (even as they are posting these topics) about the prescence of negativity.

"Oh...weep ...someone doesn't agree with my favorite whistleblower hero. It's so negative."


It just is what it is. An equal number of people probably don't like your favorite soap opera either. If people didn't turn the subject matter into a platform for their inability to manage themselves, the conflict would simmer down immediately.

Horrors yes, I am actually suggesting learn to manage themselves instead of constantly expecting others to provice a security blanket at all times. Its not the presence of negativity, that is what this forum is exploring, its the presence of a LOT of really fearful and insecure people who expect others to be vigilanlty babysitting them at all times.

3/4's of this forum needs to get a grip on themselves and quit blaming others for their inability to see what they are doing and what they are doing to themselves and refusing to take responsiblity for managing themselves.

If people knew how to manage themselves--self governance-- the issue of leadership wouldn't be an issue.