A chat we had over coffee

[Tarka the Duck]

This is obviously for those who are interested...

Tony and I were talking things through over a coffee today a few days ago, and I'd like to share this with you.

This what he said:

I lost heart for a moment.
Not with any individual: facing your demons is not about another person.

After a combination of mild name-calling, misdirection and off-topic comments again a sudden feeling of utter pointlessness washed over me. Nothing was actually being discussed: it seemed that everything was being brought down to a level of subjectivity partiality.

My problem is that I just love discussing the details, and subtle nuances
People coming on a thread and not engaging in the topic but saying it's crap seems pointless, and drags the discussion down the drain. If they are not interested, why don't they go somewhere else? That is very curious!

I was trying to sort things out intellectually, and I knew that wasn't needed at that particular moment.
The heart would have brought love and harmony and humour into the situation, and dissolved the seeming onslaught.

But there was such an overwhelming desire to communicate that one moves too far into the other person's territory. That was not necessary.
Space was filled up with trying too hard.
There was an ignoring of the natural balance.
When we understand the balance between heart and mind, it is universal.
No one disagrees and it all melts into silence.

Several posts earlier, I had put on a video of the Heart Sutra, and wrote,”Just melt”.
That is what I should have done!
Being prepared to be vulnerable means there is nothing to defend.

I had the conceptual idea of a smile, but at that moment, I wasn't actually smiling.
It all seemed pointless.
There was no generosity: I was trying too hard.

The heart cries.
The mind laughs.
We should share laughter and tears.

When we talk about the theory of heart and mind, it is a very different matter from the actual experience. The mind is describing what the heart knows already: this is related to the two truths of consciousness and essential essence. When they are in balance, there is a feeling of loving kindness. We can always experience an imbalance – too much of one or the other – and maybe that is the only conflict in our lives...what we know and what we think.

Anything can happen in life that can redress this balance – perhaps something very small: for me, it was hearing Baker Street by Gerry Rafferty while driving along the M42 motorway...

The Mind competes - the Heart does not.


A bigger picture:

When I write, I am writing from what is actually being experienced. And it may be slightly different from a textbook definition. I had hoped it might help others because it is in ordinary language, but because several members seemed strongly opposed to the content, I was concerned that I had overstepped the mark. I didn't want to draw others into such a pointless battle that seemed to be emerging.

Sometimes, one has to totally let go of everything in order to truly review.

I'll be having a chat with my root teacher at the weekend, and will take the opportunity to talk things through with him. The comments I've received about “falling off the path” and “have you gone or haven't you?” unfortunately show an intense lack of understanding: it is, of course, up to me how and when I leave – or return... or how I express!

I wouldn't dream of telling someone else how they should be.

[Ammit]

I would like to wish Tony all the best with whatever he decides to do at this time and for future plans.

[Mulder]

This is very interesting. Please share more chats so I can understand your point of view and wisdom.

[CurtisW]

Kathie, Thank you for sharing this with us. It's good to hear Tony's reflections and that he's doing well.

[mariposafe]

I fully empathize with the sense of pointlessness !! Thanks Kathie, best wishes to Tony, I know he'll do the right thing, whatever that may be.

[The One]

Come back soon my friend

Its pointless you not being here

The One

[songsfortheotherkind]

this process reminds me of what I was alluding to in the mind virus thread- all the expressions of dissolving, both blunt and subtle.

It's exquisite work, this crafting of a new evolution...

[christian]

Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)
People coming on a thread and not engaging in the topic but saying it's crap seems pointless, and drags the discussion down the drain. If they are not interested, why don't they go somewhere else? That is very curious!

When one observes someone trying to fix a car engine by peeling an orange, one might be inclined to say it's pointless and bring up the subject of real tools. But whether people have noble or ulterior motives when joining a conversation, whatever their level of understanding is, even if they think it's appropriate to launch an ad hominem attack, I let them be. I like what you said:

Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)
Sometimes, one has to totally let go of everything in order to truly review.

I wouldn't dream of telling someone else how they should be.

Life is abundant with miracles and things to ponder. When I want to find out, why people do what they do, I look inside, the reason is also in me, everything that is, can be found in the self. But then again, I cannot live life and analyze it at the same time, sometimes I feel like acting instead of contemplating and just give my best shot every now and then. I know how to detach myself from all this analysis and just be, I found stuff that I got to know comes to me then very naturally anyways.

Of releasing and analyzing neither is better, they are like the yin and yang harmonizing each other. That harmonious movement is what really matters. That's where the root of soul equilibrium is. To pick points during the journey either on the yin or yang side is like analyzing the hyroglyphics of a snowman - It's all ephemeral and melting away.

[Daft Ada]

Hi Kathie, Tony has described what happens in just about every thread on this forum, and having been here as long as he has I'm surprised he expected anything else. It's almost like every morning there are certain people who flick through the threads until they find one they can disrupt for entertainment.
Unfortunately it appears to be part of human nature that some people come on a forum looking for kindred spirits in the beliefs they share, and they play nicely in those threads, but for some reason they feel the need to stick their nose in threads of other members who have different beliefs to them and just, well, just be damn nasty and disruptive. I guess it gives them some kind of childish satisfaction like a school bully.
But I know Tony was and is aware of this, and that's why I am so surprised that he is reacting in this way when it happened to him. The choice is clear, defend yourself, in which case it will probably escalate into nastiness and someone getting banned. Or, just ignore them.
At the moment on another forum I have a thread running about the attitude of dealers when you ask for a bit of discount, one person I have never met and never spoken to came in the thread and started making personal attacks on me and insulting me. I totally ignored him. I then started to receive pm's from him calling me a coward and demanding I answer him. I didn't answer. He has gone now because I wouldn't take the bait and empower him to disrupt the thread.
Interestingly during the period of his posts a silence fell while the other members waited to see how I would react and the attendance at the thread shot up. like children gathering around a punch up in the school yard. When I ignored him the attendance slowly fizzled out, Nothing to see here move along! and the conversation resumed as per the original and now it's like it never happened.
It's a fact, there is something about human beings, well some anyway, that they love trouble, as long as it isn't them at the centre of it, for some reason people will always believe that he is a murderer, thief, child molester, rapist, insert what you like. rather than speak in someone's defence, that wouldn't be at all entertaining.
You can only have the kind of conversation you were looking for in a controlled environment, like all your close friends in your front room, and even in that situation there will always be one!
So what to do? speak to the people you trust and ignore the others, what was it the desiderata said .
Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.

Failing that, put the kettle on, get your head around it and get back here, we miss you

[spiritguide]

Thank you for the post!

All I can add is that one's expression of the self is as it should be. This is a virtue of the heart and whether it is accepted or denied it is the burden of the receiver not the sender.Heartfelt communications endure because of the purity that is expressed. Tell Tony that his -ism is just as valid and needed as anyone else's.



When the mind reaches an impasse, the heart is always there waiting and ready to SHOW with VALOR.

[markpierre]

Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)
[I][FONT="Garamond"][COLOR="blue"][SIZE="3"]This is obviously for those who are interested...

I am.

I'm a little confused about the ongoing need to hold things together. Even trying to figure it out or integrate it into whatever.

I love it when you're pedantic about your style and how you need to honour the whole tradition. And I love it that I have a pretty good idea of
what you experience in it.
But I need to remind you that when you get hooked too much into anything, even being attached to a way of expressing as luscious as it is,
it will smack you in the face.
You can idolize anything, even your intentions. ALL of our idols will fall.
It smarts. It could even turn into a dark night that lasts and escalates for years. If you've had a few then you know what they're for.

What the hell, whatever it takes. What's it worth to us? I don't know, I just can't handle myself as an identity anymore. I've had a few of them, and I can play a few different parts. Do you even want to have an identity as a Buddhist?

It's reasonable to get frustrated and pissed off. You don't really need a reason. Aren't you exercising your freedom when you do that? Where did all the judgement come from?

Nothing will explode until it has to. That's us too. So we will and so we do.
We draw a circle around ourselves to remind us that nothing outside the circle has anything whatever to do with what's occurring inside.
Its not a perfect reflection anymore mate, it's a lingering or latent temptation to keep looking out.

Hey I just love you guys. I think this whole issue has been a terrific thing for all of us. Nothing wrong with showing a little real depth in a discussion.
This is what happens when you're aware enough to really only want more. That requires movement. This is what it looks like.

[minkton]

Hey pie and tarka. Y'all know that nothing escapes the cycles of creation and destruction, dont ya! This is just one of those. It's all good.

love to you both.

[Wantsthetruth74]

Hi Kathie and Tony, Its not human nature to just disrupt things, its plain trolling. But I fully understand. When you are involved in intellectual conversation, its well, intellectually stimulating. And when that is repeatedly disrupted, it devalues the whole purpose of it. Thanks for sharing. And have a great day!!! : )

[schneider]

it's nice to hear your thoughts again tony, i miss your cute picture.

[TWINCANS]

Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)
[I]
But there was such an overwhelming desire to communicate that one moves too far into the other person's territory. That was not necessary.
Space was filled up with trying too hard.
There was an ignoring of the natural balance.
When we understand the balance between heart and mind, it is universal.
No one disagrees and it all melts into silence.

Thanks Tarka. In this posting the issue comes clear. So does the human tragedy of it all. Tony, like many of us, cares. I love that part. I don't think it was just a desire to discuss everything, but a heartfelt desire to connect on a deeper level and see the interractions stabilize at that deeper level. I couldn't agree more.

There's detachment, and then there's detachment. But there's also holding one back. It's obvious that having Tony remain active on AF is best for us, but may he make the highest choice for himself.

[sleepy]

Dear Tony,

Because of you I have been reading some of the teachings of Dalai Lama and I find them to be quite fascinating. I would just like to share something that jumped out at me in this post. It was the word “desire.”

“But there was such an overwhelming desire to communicate that one moves too far into the other person's territory. That was not necessary.”

This made me think of something I had read and I wanted to share it with you.

"As we analyze our mental experiences, we recognize that the powerful emotions we possess (such as desire, hatred, and anger) tend not to bring us very profound or long-lasting happiness. Fulfilled desire may provide a sense of temporary satisfaction; however, the pleasure we experience upon acquiring a new car or home, for example, is usually short-lived. When we indulge our desires, they tend to increase in intensity and multiply in number. We become more demanding and less content, finding it more difficult to satisfy our needs. In the Buddhist view, hatred, anger, and desire are afflictive emotions, which simply means they tend to cause us discomfort. The discomfort arises from the mental unease that follows the expression of these emotions. A constant state of mental unsettledness can even cause us physical harm." ~ Dalai Lama

I am sure I am not telling you anything you don't already know but this is a learning experience for me and for that, I thank you.

At the risk of telling someone else how they should be, I hope you find the balance and happiness you seek. I hope the same for everyone, myself included.

sleepy

[Carmody]

Posted by schneider (here)
it's nice to hear your thoughts again tony, i miss your cute picture.

My favorite, by far, was the raincoat one.

[Solstyse]

thank you.