Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

[Enola]

Can I ask what kind of meditation styles you like or find the most effective? I always wonder what type is best for raising your consciousness.

I still find all these subtle bodies a bit confusing. Or, I've been kind of thinking what most mean by enlightenment is realising their casual, buddhic, or atmic bodies, and that realsiation of the ultimate Self is more uncommon and reserved for a few special cases, like Jesus. To represent God on earth like that.

Although I guess you also might say we are all born resting in that self. I remember when my sister brought her daughter over when she was six months old she had this awestruck look on her face that babies can have. She looked completely holy, and in a very powerful way, it was almost terrible to look at.

[greybeard]

Hi Enola
This one of the meditations I use.
There is a lot of information on it too.
Otherwise I just sit still in silence.
Much Love
Chris

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=0IdtGGVUmmA

[greybeard]

Hi Enola
Sorry----I had not realised the question on meditation is really addressed to Tim.

Chris

[Shadowman]

Posted by Enola (here)
Can I ask what kind of meditation styles you like or find the most effective? I always wonder what type is best for raising your consciousness.

I still find all these subtle bodies a bit confusing. Or, I've been kind of thinking what most mean by enlightenment is realising their casual, buddhic, or atmic bodies, and that realsiation of the ultimate Self is more uncommon and reserved for a few special cases, like Jesus. To represent God on earth like that.

Although I guess you also might say we are all born resting in that self. I remember when my sister brought her daughter over when she was six months old she had this awestruck look on her face that babies can have. She looked completely holy, and in a very powerful way, it was almost terrible to look at.

Hi Enola,

Different types of sadhana appeal to different people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C4%81dhan%C4%81

The styles which best suited my temperament were those which applied a direct approach ie vipassana, zazen and vichara.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-enquiry_%28Ramana_Maharshi%29

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post472609

Generally speaking most paths can be divided into two categories. The "path" of Love ie Bhakti or Karma Yoga for those that are predominantly emotionally or heart driven, and the "path" of wisdom ie Jnana Yoga for those that are more intellectually predisposed. Whether you begin in Love or Wisdom, in the end you find they lead to the same Realization.

Just experiment with different types to find which best suits you. As long as your intent to know God/Reality/Self is authentic and sincere, and supersedes any worldly goals or pursuits, you will find yourself being guided or inspired to investigate particular teachers/paths. Sometimes such guidance can take the form of unusual events or synchronicities. Such events, like experiences you may have during sadhana techniques, act like signposts. Just don't get attached to having or expecting either of them. Every journey home is unique.

She looked completely holy, and in a very powerful way, it was almost terrible to look at

Yes, unless you become as little children....(whose pure awareness is less obscured by the conditioned mind). It is terrifying, to the ego. It is a glimpse of the egoless state which threatens the ego's illusions of both existence and continuity. The irony is that once the ego subsides, what was seen/imagined by the mind to be terrible, is supremely peaceful and blissful,

With Love
tim

[joeecho]

If one believes they are in an egoless state, that is the ego believing it.

[Guish]

Posted by joeecho (here)
If one believes they are in an egoless state, that is the ego believing it.

There's no belief at that point. Only Spontaneous actions.

[joeecho]

Posted by Guish (here)

Posted by joeecho (here)
If one believes they are in an egoless state, that is the ego believing it.

There's no belief at that point. Only Spontaneous actions.

Ego doesn't have to believe in itself to be ego. Ego not believing in itself is still ego believing in itself. Funny how that works.

[Rich]

Posted by Jenci (here)
What I have seen from contemplating this thread for days, is that they in themselves have become fixed points - beliefs about what enlightenment is.

Even the sense of have of Awareness/Consciousness that this was the One, Eternal, Real, I am now questioning. And I am questioning the sense of it, not just the belief of it.

What if this too, Awareness/Consciousness, is still the illusion?

And how do we distinguish them? What makes one thing more real than another?

[greybeard]

Posted by EmEx (here)

Posted by Jenci (here)
What I have seen from contemplating this thread for days, is that they in themselves have become fixed points - beliefs about what enlightenment is.

Even the sense of have of Awareness/Consciousness that this was the One, Eternal, Real, I am now questioning. And I am questioning the sense of it, not just the belief of it.

What if this too, Awareness/Consciousness, is still the illusion?

And how do we distinguish them? What makes one thing more real than another?

Good to see you posting EmEx.
I miss Jenci--a lot of good posts from her.
From my understanding the only thing that "I" can be sure of is that "I am" there is an awareness of what Chris the persona is doing therefore, that is, or seems separate from, yet part of I.
However I get intellectually that there is no subject or object,all just is.

Ch

[Shadowman]

Posted by greybeard (here)

Posted by EmEx (here)

Posted by Jenci (here)
What I have seen from contemplating this thread for days, is that they in themselves have become fixed points - beliefs about what enlightenment is.

Even the sense of have of Awareness/Consciousness that this was the One, Eternal, Real, I am now questioning. And I am questioning the sense of it, not just the belief of it.

What if this too, Awareness/Consciousness, is still the illusion?

And how do we distinguish them? What makes one thing more real than another?

Good to see you posting EmEx.
I miss Jenci--a lot of good posts from her.
From my understanding the only thing that "I" can be sure of is that "I am" there is an awareness of what Chris the persona is doing therefore, that is, or seems separate from, yet part of I.
However I get intellectually that there is no subject or object,all just is.

Ch

Aloha Chris & Emex,

The confusion only exists in the mind and words. Awareness/Consciousness, in relation to the subjective self/ego, refer to the limited illusory conceptual thoughts, or, if you prefer, everything you say that comes after I am... ie I am a man. This is equivalent in most peoples minds, to everyday waking consciousness.

Awareness/Consciousness, in relation to Reality, refers to what is Real, Absolute and Eternal. It is the truth of what you are, hence the statement to Moses, I am that I am. It is equivalent to that which witnesses all three subordinate states ie waking, sleeping and dreaming.

To use a metaphor, consider an empty room. Now consider the space in that room as awareness. Relatively, as we add boxes of goods (thoughts or beliefs) to the room we have less space. But in the absolute sense, the space in the room remains the same, whether it is full or empty. One is permanent, the other is illusory and impermanent. The absolute space can and does exist with or without the impermanent boxes, but the boxes cannot exist without the absolute space.

Distinguishing is a function of the mind. You can not arrive at the Absolute by the use of the relative mind. It requires a direct insight/satori/gnosis as opposed to intellectual understanding.

Chris has succinctly answered your question by suggesting you turn your outward facing distinguishing mind towards it’s source, the ever present I am.

Bodhidharma also put it succinctly,

A special transmission outside the scriptures
Not founded upon words and letters;
By pointing directly to [one's] mind
It lets one see into [one's own true] nature and [thus] attain Buddhahood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhidharma

I elaborated further in two previous responses to you and Jen;

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post472609

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post960572

A close reading of the first post will let you in on the joke when I say to you;

Stop sinning! And lay off the apples from the tree of knowledge at the centre of the garden!

To seek mind with the discriminating (distinguishing? ) mind is the greatest of all mistakes - Sosan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinxin_Ming

In Lakech
tim

[joeecho]

Awareness doesn't have a twin, at least one that it knows of. It may make one up but that doesn't count.

[Shadowman]

Posted by joeecho (here)
If one believes they are in an egoless state, that is the ego believing it.

Posted by joeecho (here)
Awareness doesn't have a twin, at least one that it knows of. It may make one up but that doesn't count.

Hi Joeecho,

Yes, quite so. In your first statement both the one who believes - the ego, and the belief's themselves, are illusions.

It is like a shadow proclaiming itself to be the light, because it's form/shape is self apparent due to an obstruction of the light.

The paradox is that when a Buddha makes the same statement, they are expressing a profound truth, albeit using relative terms. Of course they are not expressing a belief, but stating a Self Realized, Self evident insight/fact or Reality.

The "true light" is apparent in the absence of the shadow (ego/separate self). The shadow does not become the "light" source ie enlightened, for it is but a phenomenal manifestation, an illusion, caused by the obfuscation or obstruction of the pure light. The irony is, however, that in order to point towards this awakening, the shadow self is "apparently" necessary to communicate with "other" shadow self's, for few understand the most direct pointer ie silence.

For insight as to why I say "apparently", a close examination of the "Diamond Sutra", specifically in relation to the attainment of merit, may help resolve the paradox of using an illusory self to point towards the Real Self.

“All living beings, whether born from eggs, from the womb, from moisture, or spontaneously; whether they have form or do not have form; whether they are aware or unaware, whether they are not aware or not unaware, all living beings will eventually be led by me to the final Nirvana, the final ending of the cycle of birth and death. And when this unfathomable, infinite number of living beings have all been liberated, in truth not even a single being has actually been liberated.”

http://diamond-sutra.com/

The outer illusory self, or guru/teacher, leads one along the path to awakening using different devices. The seeker is led to the inner self, or witness, along the way. Ultimately however, "the reflection on the Self which is thus practised constantly, will destroy the ego/mind, and thereafter will destroy itself like the stick that is used to kindle the cinders burning a corpse. It is this state that is called release." - (paraphrased from p33 The Collected Works of Ramana Maharshi)

Mansoor Al-Hallaj was condemned to hang by the neck for shouting in ecstasy Anal-Haq, Anal-Haq (I am the Truth, I am the Truth). The orthodoxy understood this to mean that he was claiming to be God himself, whereas he had proclaimed in his sublime spiritual ecstasy, simply a total annihilation of himself.

As the Self, all is real. Apart from the Self, nothing is real - Nisargadatta.

I and the Father are one - Jesus


Re your second statement, yes, Reality is without a second (in both the literal and temporal sense lol ). I suspect you were being jovial in saying it may make one up, I would suggest it is the mind which makes things up...

(30) Anyone who sees that all activities certainly in all respects are the result of material conditioning and that one as the soul is not the doer, sees perfectly. (31) When one following that tries to see that the diversity of the living beings is resting in oneness and that it expanded to that reality, at that time one attains the Absolute of the Spirit.

(32) This inexhaustible soul is because of being beginningless and its freedom from the modes of nature of the beyond; although embodied, oh son of Kuntî, it never does anything nor is it entangled. (33) As the ether is all pervading and in its subtlety never mixes with anything, so does the soul within the body never mix. (34) Like one sun illumining the whole world, so does the soul within this body similarly illumine all, oh son of Bharata. (35) Those who, through spiritual insight, thus know of the difference between the field and the knower of the field and know about the liberation of the living being from [suffering] material nature; they reach the Supreme.' - Bhagavad Gita Ch 13 30 - 35


Namaste
tim

[greybeard]

Good to see you posting Tim.
It gives us a reality check----perhaps I am too fond of story telling.

Ch

[joeecho]

Posted by tim (here)
Yes, quite so. In your first statement both the one who believes - the ego, and the belief's themselves, are illusions.

Hi Tim,

Excellent post as always. Reality check(s) is one of the most interesting things about life, IMO.

The odd twist is that that too is a belief/ shadow though at least it casts on itself revealing it's limitation. The ego/ mind merrily goes a'round, entertaining for sure.

Row, row, row your boat
Gently down the stream,
Merrily merrily, merrily, merrily
Life is but a dream

It's the last part (Life is but a dream) that ego/ mind has trouble with in large part because it's a part. Mind thinks it created the dream implying an external existence to said dream.

"I' row but under no illusion that it gets 'me' out of the stream. That which is out of the stream has nothing to say in the matter. To help one out of the stream one must get in the stream but then 'who' is out of the stream to help the two?

[joeecho]

Follow up: I imagine one reading the above would suggest "what stream"? And by extension 'what Project Avalon'? Which brings me back to a self reference:

Posted by joeecho (here)
That which is out of the stream has nothing to say in the matter.

Note: I had to self reference because that dude out of the stream isn't talking! (ego having a little silly fun)

[Rich]

Good to see you guys , I enjoy this thread because of the different perspectives and read it several times.

I wonder if anything definable can truly be real? because what can be defined can also change.
What is truly mind blowing: how did we come up with the idea of the body (human or otherwise)?

[Shadowman]

Posted by joeecho (here)

Posted by tim (here)
Yes, quite so. In your first statement both the one who believes - the ego, and the belief's themselves, are illusions.

Hi Tim,

Excellent post as always. Reality check(s) is one of the most interesting things about life, IMO.

The odd twist is that that too is a belief/ shadow though at least it casts on itself revealing it's limitation. The ego/ mind merrily goes a'round, entertaining for sure.

Row, row, row your boat
Gently down the stream,
Merrily merrily, merrily, merrily
Life is but a dream

It's the last part (Life is but a dream) that ego/ mind has trouble with in large part because it's a part. Mind thinks it created the dream implying an external existence to said dream.

"I' row but under no illusion that it gets 'me' out of the stream. That which is out of the stream has nothing to say in the matter. To help one out of the stream one must get in the stream but then 'who' is out of the stream to help the two?

Thankyou for your kind words and insightful post Joeecho,

Allow me to shed light on a mystery and paradox of immense/no importance, (depending on who you are).

It is true that That which is out of the stream has nothing to say on the matter, as hinted at in the BG quote from Ch 13 in my last post.

However, the undistorted "reflection" of the Absolute, in an awakened Christ/Buddha/Avatar, can function like a lighthouse, both guiding ships to "safe harbour" and illuminating obstacles.

Say a "map" pointing the way home was reflected in a lake. Only when the lake is perfectly still and undisturbed is the reflection clear and helpful.

Guidance, inspiration and instruction from such a one can help not only to alleviate suffering in this world, but reveal to you the open Cosmic Secret - Your True Self.

As one's understanding and insight deepens, guidance can appear anywhere... In a song, the words of a stranger, nature or a poem...

Row, row, row your boat
Gently down the stream,
Merrily merrily, merrily, merrily
Life is but a dream

At the beginning of the journey the "rower" appears to operate their boat. Not knowing which way to go, just go/row with the flow - Walk On!

A master of Zen Buddhism who when asked "What is truth?" replied "Walk On!"

https://www.amazon.com/Walk-Quest-Bo.../dp/0835604195

https://www.slideshare.net/ianellis-...he-eternal-now

By moving gently (devoid/detached from desires/aversions, treating all with equanimity), one becomes a stream enterer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sot%C4%81panna

As one shifts identification from the unreal to the real, the "peace that passeth beyond understanding" or the uncaused Joy of Being (Ananda), free of fear, one treads lightly and merrily, symbolised by the tenth bull...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Bulls



Ultimately it is Realised life is just a dream, the stream merges into the Ocean, and you arrive at That which you never actually left, the goose was already out!

https://www.spiritual-short-stories....story-by-osho/

In Lakech
tim

[Shadowman]

Posted by joeecho (here)
Follow up: I imagine one reading the above would suggest "what stream"? And by extension 'what Project Avalon'? Which brings me back to a self reference:

Posted by joeecho (here)
That which is out of the stream has nothing to say in the matter.

Note: I had to self reference because that dude out of the stream isn't talking! (ego having a little silly fun)

Yes, let's have a little fun.

When I was young I liked to look in the mirror and laughingly tell the reflection "You don't exist"

It was only as I grew older I realised the reflection was telling me the same thing!





In Love and Laughter
tim

[Rich]

It seems the body is something very specific and concrete,
on closer look however, it is seen as abstract and undefinable or non existent,
whether as a feeling or intellectually.
The other day I saw a youtube about a Vipassana practitioner who said:
The body does not exist and the body parts do not exist,
it is our thoughts that label sensations as being “my arm”, “my leg” and so on.


The "Hero" of the Dream

The body is the central figure in the dreaming of the world. There is no dream without it, nor does it exist without the dream in which it acts as if it were a person to be seen and be believed. It takes the central place in every dream, which tells the story of how it was made by other bodies, born into the world outside the body, lives a little while and dies, to be united in the dust with other bodies dying like itself. In the brief time allotted it to live, it seeks for other bodies as its friends and enemies. Its safety is its main concern. Its comfort is its guiding rule. It tries to look for pleasure, and avoid the things that would be hurtful. Above all, it tries to teach itself its pains and joys are different and can be told apart.

The dreaming of the world takes many forms, because the body seeks in many ways to prove it is autonomous and real. It puts things on itself that it has bought with little metal discs or paper strips the world proclaims as valuable and real. It works to get them, doing senseless things, and tosses them away for senseless things it does not need and does not even want.

It hires other bodies, that they may protect it and collect more senseless things that it can call its own. It looks about for special bodies that can share its dream. Sometimes it dreams it is a conqueror of bodies weaker than itself. But in some phases of the dream, it is the slave of bodies that would hurt and torture it.
The body's serial adventures, from the time of birth to dying are the theme of every dream the world has ever had. The "hero" of this dream will never change, nor will its purpose. Though the dream itself takes many forms, and seems to show a great variety of places and events wherein its "hero" finds itself, the dream has but one purpose, taught in many ways. This single lesson does it try to teach again, and still again, and yet once more; that it is cause and not effect. And you are its effect, and cannot be its cause.
Thus are you not the dreamer, but the dream. And so you wander idly in and out of places and events that it contrives. That this is all the body does is true, for it is but a figure in a dream.
But who reacts to figures in a dream unless he sees them as if they were real? The instant that he sees them as they are they have no more effects on him, because he understands he gave them their effects by causing them and making them seem real.

How willing are you to escape effects of all the dreams the world has ever had? Is it your wish to let no dream appear to be the cause of what it is you do? Then let us merely look upon the dream's beginning, for the part you see is but the second part, whose cause lies in the first. No one asleep and dreaming in the world remembers his attack upon himself. No one believes there really was a time when he knew nothing of a body, and could never have conceived this world as real. He would have seen at once that these ideas are one illusion, too ridiculous for anything but to be laughed away. How serious they now appear to be! And no one can remember when they would have met with laughter and with disbelief. We can remember this, if we but look directly at their cause. And we will see the grounds for laughter, not a cause for fear.

Let us return the dream he gave away unto the dreamer, who perceives the dream as separate from himself and done to him. Into eternity, where all is one, there crept a tiny, mad idea, at which the Son of God remembered not to laugh. In his forgetting did the thought become a serious idea, and possible of both accomplishment and real effects. Together, we can laugh them both away, and understand that time cannot intrude upon eternity. It is a joke to think that time can come to circumvent eternity, which means there is no time.

A timelessness in which is time made real; a part of God that can attack itself; a separate brother as an enemy; a mind within a body all are forms of circularity whose ending starts at its beginning, ending at its cause. The world you see depicts exactly what you thought you did. Except that now you think that what you did is being done to you. The guilt for what you thought is being placed outside yourself, and on a guilty world that dreams your dreams and thinks your thoughts instead of you. It brings its vengeance, not your own. It keeps you narrowly confined within a body, which it punishes because of all the sinful things the body does within its dream. You have no power to make the body stop its evil deeds because you did not make it, and cannot control its actions nor its purpose nor its fate.

The world but demonstrates an ancient truth; you will believe that others do to you exactly what you think you did to them. But once deluded into blaming them you will not see the cause of what they do, because you want the guilt to rest on them. How childish is the petulant device to keep your innocence by pushing guilt outside yourself, but never letting go! It is not easy to perceive the jest when all around you do your eyes behold its heavy consequences, but without their trifling cause. Without the cause do its effects seem serious and sad indeed. Yet they but follow. And it is their cause that follows nothing and is but a jest.
In gentle laughter does the Holy Spirit perceive the cause, and looks not to effects. How else could He correct your error, who have overlooked the cause entirely?
He bids you bring each terrible effect to Him that you may look together on its foolish cause and laugh with Him a while. You judge effects, but He has judged their cause. And by His judgment are effects removed. Perhaps you come in tears. But hear Him say, "My brother, holy Son of God, behold your idle dream, in which this could occur. "And you will leave the holy instant with your laughter and your brother's joined with His.

The secret of salvation is but this: that you are doing this unto yourself. No matter what the form of the attack, this still is true. Whoever takes the role of enemy and of attacker, still is this the truth. Whatever seems to be the cause of any pain and suffering you feel, this is still true. For you would not react at all to figures in a dream you knew that you were dreaming. Let them be as hateful and as vicious as they may, they could have no effect on you unless you failed to recognize it is your dream.

This single lesson learned will set you free from suffering, whatever form it takes. The Holy Spirit will repeat this one inclusive lesson of deliverance
until it has been learned, regardless of the form of suffering that brings you pain. Whatever hurt you bring to Him He will make answer with this very simple truth. For this one answer takes away the cause of every form of sorrow and of pain. The form affects His answer not at all, for He would teach you but the single cause of all of them, no matter what their form. And you will understand that miracles reflect the simple statement, " I have done this thing, and it is this I would undo. "
Bring, then, all forms of suffering to Him Who knows that every one is like the rest. He sees no differences where none exists, and He will teach you how each one is caused. None has a different cause from all the rest, and all of them are easily undone by but a single lesson truly learned.

Salvation is a secret you have kept but from yourself. The universe proclaims it so. Yet to its witnesses you pay no heed at all. For they attest the thing you do not want to know. They seem to keep it secret from you. Yet you need but learn you chose but not to listen, not to see.
How differently will you perceive the world when this is recognized! When you forgive the world your guilt, you will be free of it. Its innocence does not demand your guilt, nor does your guiltlessness rest on its sins. This is the obvious; a secret kept from no one but yourself. And it is this that has maintained you separate from the world, and kept your brother separate from you. Now need you but to learn that both of you are innocent or guilty. The one thing that is impossible is that you be unlike each other; that they both be true. This is the only secret yet to learn. And it will be no secret you are healed.

[Shadowman]

Posted by EmEx (here)
Good to see you guys , I enjoy this thread because of the different perspectives and read it several times.

I wonder if anything definable can truly be real? because what can be defined can also change.
What is truly mind blowing: how did we come up with the idea of the body (human or otherwise)?

More to the point can what is real be truly defined?

Trying to define the Real with words makes fitting the ocean into a thimble childsplay

No harm in trying though, eh?

"We the unwilling, led by the unqualified, have been doing the unbelievable, for so long, with so little, we now attempt the impossible with nothing."

In Love and Laughter
tim