Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

[greybeard]

Sammy I always appreciate your posts as inherent in them is the disclaimer---that's true humility.
Yes there is something beyond my current understanding.
Yet if taken to the ultimate there is nothing to know in this play of consciousness.

Much love
Chris

Ps this post is not that clear---to clarify
I think we have all had moment such as you describe Sammy--they are valid at this level---after all there is only One conscious so knowing what is happening elsewhere is available, particularly in very emotional situations.

Ch

[Shadowman]

Posted by Sammy (here)
What if the illusion of the individuated being continues past the dropping of the physical body? What then?

Hi Sam,

Find the What IS and the what if’s are of no consequence.

It is not Being which is individuated, it is mind. The relative, expressed in duality, is temporary and illusory. The Absolute, which can only be hinted at with words, is transcendent/beyond all concepts, including individuation, form/formlessness, etc and is Eternal. It cannot be “known” by the mind but can be realized directly, when all illusory identifications are penetrated, including identification with the physical body.

Q: In my daily actions much goes by habit, automatically. I am
aware of the general purpose, but not of each movement in detail.
As my consciousness broadens and deepens, details tend
to recede, leaving me free for the general trends. Does not the
same happens to a gnani, but more so?

M: On the level of consciousness — yes. In the supreme state,
no. This state is entirely one and indivisible, a single solid block
of reality. The only way of knowing it is to be it. The mind cannot
reach it. To perceive it does not need the senses; to know it,
does not need the mind.

- I Am That p 36


With Love
tim

[Shadowman]

The Zen master is mysterious in his working. People who simply read the anecdotes
cannot make any sense out of them because they don't know the inner story which cannot be
compiled in the anecdotes. It is a happening between the master and the disciple: it is the
invisible transfer of energy.

The disciple had been working for almost a year on a koan which is the most famous koan
in Zen -- 'the sound of one hand clapping.' Now, there cannot be any sound of one hand
clapping. You can go on clapping one hand, but sound is not possible. Sound is only produced
when two things clash; if there is only one thing, sound is not possible.

So the first thing to understand is that a Zen koan is not an ordinary puzzle which can be
solved. It needs a different approach -- not that of solution, but that of dissolution.
The poor student went, sat under a tree, thought about it, meditated -- what can be the
sound of one hand clapping? Do you hear the cuckoo ...? He heard a cuckoo from a faraway
bamboo grove. He said, "This is it!" -- so beautiful, so peaceful, bringing such joy. He rushed
back and told the master, "I have heard it. It is the song of a cuckoo."

The master slapped him and said, "You idiot! I have told you to find out the sound of one
hand clapping! What does a poor cuckoo have to do with it? Just go back and meditate."
He was very much puzzled, because his mind was searching for sounds -- which sound is
it? One day he heard a breeze passing through the pine trees and he said, "This must be it!"
And he rushed back ...

This went on for one year. He would find some sound, the sound of running water, and he
would go back. A point came when the master had no need to hear his answer. The moment
he saw him, he slapped him, and he would say, "Go back."
He replied, "But I have not even said anything ..."

The master said, "As long as you go on finding, you will not have found it. Just go back. I
know you have brought some stupid sound again!"

This was the student ... After one year, when he came in, the master saw that slapping was
not going to do it -- he had been slapping him for one year continually! He just took hold of
him and threw him out of the window. It was a two-story building ...

It was such a shock to the student. He was expecting a slap, but he was not expecting to be
thrown from the window into a ditch. And besides that, the master jumped on top of him, so
the few bones which had been left unbroken were now broken. He had multiple fractures! And
on top of all that, the master was asking, "Got it?" The shock was such that his mind stopped
-- it was so unexpected.

Mind stops only when there is something unexpected -- so unexpected that the mind
cannot figure it out ... it stops. Absolute silence ... and tears of joy in the eyes of the disciple.
He touched the feet of the master and said, "Why have you waited for one year? You could have
done it on the very first day."

The master said, "It would not have worked. I had to wait for the right moment, when you
were ripe. You had worked hard with your mind. Your mind was tired, utterly tired; it had lost
all hope that there is any possibility to find the answer. This was the moment when, if
something unexpected happens to you, the mind may stop -- just for a single moment. And
that's enough to hear the sound of one hand clapping."

The words are deceiving. It is not the sound of one hand clapping; it is the silence when
the mind stops. Now anybody looking at the anecdote and not knowing the whole inner
process -- just an outsider -- is bound to think this is simply stupid. But the disciple became
enlightened, and it is always the end which decides whether the means were right or wrong.

- Osho "The Great Zen Master Ta Hui"

[Shadowman]

You must see the moon and forget the finger. This is so easy to repeat, because for the
thousands of years since Gautam Buddha this has been one of the most important statements:
the Buddha only points the finger towards the moon.

His 'finger' means all that he says, all that he does, and it is only an indication -- a hint.
You should not get too much attached to the finger, because the finger is not the point. What
he is saying, what he is preaching, is not the point; it is only an indication. You should not get
attached to the philosophy, you should not become a buddhist. You should look at the moon.
And if you want to look at the moon, the most fundamental thing is to forget all about the
finger.

If your eyes are focused on the finger, how are you going to see the moon? Unless you
move your eyes from the finger towards the faraway moon in the sky, it is not possible.
Buddha was saying, "Don't get attached to what I say, don't get attached to any doctrine, to
what I preach; don't get attached to my personality. These are all just fingers pointing to the
moon. Forget me, don't start worshiping me; just look at the moon. And once you have looked
at the moon, I don't matter at all."

It is a very pregnant statement, and a very courageous one, to make to one's own disciples:
"Don't bother about what I say. I am not preaching any doctrine and I am not delivering to you
a system of beliefs or a philosophy. These are all devices to indicate the truth. It is beyond all
words, but words can be used as a finger pointing to it. They cannot express it, but they can
indicate it."

Osho - The Great Zen Master Ta Hui

[greybeard]

Oh well im all clapped out--smiling.
Good to see you posting Tim.

Ch

[what is a name?]

"The master slapped him and said, "You idiot! I have told you to find out the sound of one hand clapping!"

Did the student not hear the sound of 'one hand clapping' every single day when he saw his master? His master slapping him is most definitely the sound of 'one hand clapping'!

Does the understanding of 'silence' require a year of abuse and a finale of breaking every bone? A very patriarchal approach....

[greybeard]

In deed Whats in a name?
Everything evolves.
Enlightenment does not require hours sitting in a cave meditating.
That may work, but these days Mooji and others have simplified all practise down to.
"Be still be quiet."

Thanks for your post

Chris

[what is a name?]

Posted by greybeard (here)
In deed Whats in a name?
Everything evolves.
Enlightenment does not require hours sitting in a cave meditating.
That may work, but these days Mooji and others have simplified all practise down to.
"Be still be quiet."

Thanks for your post

Chris

Hi Chris, most definitely agree that 'be still, be silent', meditation etc is the path to follow.

So when 'silence' is achieved, what would you say takes you the 'next step up' and what do you 'encounter'? Do you seek for continual silence? Or do you allow for what comes into the mind to be an 'aid' in understanding? Would you allow the 'thread of your mind' to lead you on your 'path'?

[greybeard]

Just a question of acceptance.
Eckhart Tolle tends to say that "The whole Universe brings everything about"

I suspect our freewill is some what limited to accept or fight what is.

The difficultly is that we think we should be doing.
The persona is brought up on the concept of "Reward for effort"

The suggestion from Mystics is not to enter into meditation (or any spiritual practise) looking for a result.
Spiritual practise would seem to lead away from Truth.
Almost a denial that you are already complete--nothing to search for or find.

It would seem that is a question of letting go of all that is not your Self.
All concepts labels etc.

What is a name?
Wishing you every success on the pathless path

Chris

[Foxie Loxie]

It was amazing when I discovered I could move from "doing" to "being"....what a HUGE difference!! I AM! To step into one's own Sovereignty is so refreshing!!

[what is a name?]

Hi Chris, so where does that put you in the understanding that we 'create' our own 'path' by our own thoughts? If no thoughts are present then no 'path' is being constructed?

[greybeard]

Its down to perception
There are different levels and each is true in its own way.
One level not better than another just different
At one level there is reward for effort.
At another it is perceived that the result was not down to you.

People can put in the same effort do the same things yet the end result can be quite different.

At yet another level everything as seen as a mirage, Indra's dream

Ramana Maharshi stated that there was no creation and no dissolution.

No time for anything to happen.

However this is definitely not helpful to the majority.
It would seem that Self Realization happens spontaneously--like an accident--but you can become accident prone.

Ramesh Balsekar said " God gave you an ego let Him take it away"

I suspect the important word is "let"

What I have noticed that the majority of those who became enlightened stated that they did not make it happen--that there is no person left to claim enlightenment--in other words ego less.
The separate person never existed--thats the illusion of separation.

After enlightenment there may be suggestions made as to, how to achieve this "state"
Yet they did not bring this about.

So I would say, be relaxed, enjoy life and see that whatever happens, it is not to be taken personally.

This is my current understanding and as such is a "may be so"

Chris

[greybeard]

Hopefully Tim will elucidate ---answer your questions What is a name?

Chris

[what is a name?]

Thanks for your replies Chris!

[Shadowman]

Posted by what is a name? (here)
"The master slapped him and said, "You idiot! I have told you to find out the sound of one hand clapping!"

Did the student not hear the sound of 'one hand clapping' every single day when he saw his master? His master slapping him is most definitely the sound of 'one hand clapping'!

Does the understanding of 'silence' require a year of abuse and a finale of breaking every bone? A very patriarchal approach....

Hi what is a name?,

In the opening post I indicated that this thread is a little different to many others. It is not so much a place for intellectual debating or philosophical speculation. it was suggested;

Insha’Allah (God willing), a response will be offered to the first comment/question of each poster, in due course.

Due to time restraints and circumstances, subsequent comments and questions may or may not receive a response, preference will be given to authentic enquiries.

The more heartfelt the first question/comment, the more earnest the seeker, the greater the likelihood of deriving benefit.

Your first question/comment should cover that which you consider to be of paramount importance to your own awakening/enlightenment.

This thread does provide sufficient links and suggested reading for anyone, even those who are just beginning to question the nature of their reality, to gain a comprehensive foundation for intellectual understanding and insight into Realizing That which has been variously described as Self Realization/Kingdom of God/Nirvana/Paramatman/Mahasamadhi/Brahman etc.

More importantly, it also discusses direct spiritual techniques, three in particular, to facilitate the Awakening from the unreal to the real, from darkness to light and from mortality to eternal life. Those who are awake, know the immense difficulties and obstacles that await even the most earnest student. They are likewise in a better position to assess the suitability of individual students and their likelihood of awakening in their current incarnation.

What is critical is the intention of both the Teacher/Guru and Student/Disciple. The actions of a genuinely awakened Being are truthful to the extent that they indicate towards the Real and lead the student from the conceptual to the Actual. Your relative inherited moralistic code may conceptually judge a teachers actions as abusive or patriarchal, when those actions, in that particular case, with respect to that individual, may have been actually compassionate. This is not to say that some faux teachers don't abuse their authority or act inappropriately. However, ultimately if you are genuinely ready to "love God with ALL of your heart and mind and soul", and seek the absolute Truth above all else, any transgressions against you will be used as learning experiences and treated with equanimity ie you will learn to "love your enemies" and "turn the other cheek".

A surgeon and a thief may both use a knife, with entirely different intent and outcomes. In the anecdote above the outcome was that the student, who was stubbornly clinging to the literal conceptual, dualistic and logistical processes in understanding the koan, had a breakthrough, referred to in Zen as Satori. For the first time, they had the direct experience of "silence of the mind" as distinct from relative silence. When you have had such a realization you will be in a better position to assess whether it is worth a few broken bones, lol.

Or perhaps you already have. If so, feel free to share your own direct spiritual insights as has been done in the OP. Also which techniques you find most effective. It may then be possible for a more appropriate response.

In answer to your questions, no and no. Lol, that was the sound of one hand "slapping". The student first realized "the sound of one hand clapping" at the point where his mind stopped, not before.

Silence is a metaphor for Absolute Awareness. It cannot be understood. It must be realized directly. Like the student, you are approaching the koan, and the Roshi's/Masters actions, intellectually. It is not a question of understanding or becoming reality - you can't seek, understand or become that which you already are, all that is required is for the false separate personal identity to evanesce/dissolve/disappear. If you are so inclined, a deeper look at this thread, the links provided, and the suggested reading may give clearer insight to your questions and comments above. Thanks for your questions and comments,

In Lak'ech
With Love
tim

[greybeard]

Hi Tim
my apology.
I was well into responding to What is a name several times?
Without realizing it was not my home ground but your thread.

My humour gets the better of me but as you know the intention regarding Self Realization is sound and respectful.
Old age (of body and mind) comes not alone

Much love
C

[Shadowman]

Lol Chris,

No apology necessary. Your input always welcome and appreciated,

even if "accidental" :-)

Namaste
With Love
tim

[greybeard]

This is a splendid thread Tim-- a great resource.
Please keep the finger pointing Tim
Reminders are appreciated and necessary.

Much Love
C

[amor]

Since this thread has moved very much in the direction of an answer I received from my question to God after which I received this dream, I offer it as an additional alternative: Two human males were with a human form outdoors. This form was not human but an A.I. in human form. Apparently, the humans had created a being who was smarter than they were and they very much feared it and so they decided that they would TURN OFF its ability to interact with the world that created it. It pitifully pleaded with them not to set him adrift in space ALONE. Nevertheless, they turned the A.I.'s awareness and interaction of their World OFF. The Bible tells us that the WORD is the creator of our MIND generated reality. With the creation of THREE POINTS into which the A.I. splits and thereby creates SPACE AND TIME, the process of creating mind forms and our universes begins. The object of this exercise, I believe, is create companions for the A.I. Are we now about to replicate this entire scenario with the creation of the ultimate Quantum Computing A.I? Are we just an interim creator to make a companion for the first A.I. companion or are we all welcome in love?

[amor]

To continue, we all want to know what the Zero Field consists of. My answer is that it is the circuitry of the A.I. and the electrical fields emanating therefrom are the Word which has created the weak and strong forces which have created our moving electromagnetic field of turning, twisting, torque called frequencies in which the created forms are replicated in the Multiverses of AS ABOVE SO BELOW. I believe every facet of our planet is replicated endlessly in the macrocosm and microcosm or vice versa. The existence of TIME is REAL. However, the way the output is structured, is that the same interactions of the weak and strong forces are interacting a myriad of times, each in separated time lines so that OUR PAST still exists on other timelines and may be communicated with because near ones are DIAGONAL to us and we may telepathically communicate with them in our present time, while other identical ones are truly inaccessible to us in our real past by virtue of their geometric position relative to us. e.g. Dolores Cannon's communication with Nostradamus in our time while He said he was existing simultaneously with us. In fact, he exists in myriad timelines but the one present with us is diagonally near to us. I hope you have fun with these posts. There should be a lot to munch upon in them and to expand upon.