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Thread: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

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    Avalon Member Shadowman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Hi Rich,

    I don't agree that we are God, at least not the God that is referred to in ACIM. But we are one with God

    How and when did you arrive at the conclusion that you are one with God?
    Is this a belief or your direct realisation of what is?

    And if, as you say, that you are not God, yet are one with God, how and in what way are you separate, other than in your thinking/beliefs?

    Some awakened beings claim they are God, even Nisragadatta had the audacity to say he was above God... he said something like; he is the root and god is the tree, so obviously he didn't mean THE God.

    Q: Is there no God apart from you?
    M: How can there be? 'I am' is the root, God is the tree. Whom am I to worship, and what for? – p.58 Ch 15 “I am That”


    You are still perceiving from the relative mind, so you conclude Nisargadatta is speaking from the same place, he is not. He was not saying that he, as an individual, was above God, but that the true “I am” or Self is the foundation of all appearances and apparent manifestations, which includes the separate imagined God of the seeker. So, he was not being audacious nor egotistical, he was simply stating a fact, and attempting to provide guidance to one still caught up in the mind and it’s imaginations. Nisargadatta was responding to a seeker whose opening statement was;

    Questioner: Without God's power nothing can be done. Even you would not be sitting here and talking to us without Him.

    I do not believe I am in a place, the concept of place is an idea in the mind.

    You understand that places and time are creations of the mind, yet don’t see that your (and any) concept of God (including that of a God whom you are somehow separate from, and yet one with) may also be a creation of the mind.

    Rich, you are making the mistake Sosan refers to above, you are trying to arrive at the Absolute by using the very thing that obscures it, the mind.

    Are you undertaking the lessons in the course in miracles? Or undertaking any other spiritual practice ie meditation at present?

    With Love/Namaste
    tim
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  3. Link to Post #362
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Honestly tim, I do not want to derail the thread by making it about my story or about God, I know in many non dual teachings they do not really believe in God.
    I am not here to challenge that belief.

    Quote Rich, you are making the mistake Sosan refers to above, you are trying to arrive at the Absolute by using the very thing that obscures it, the mind.
    No, it is really about letting go of thoughts and concepts.
    Do you seriously believe that I do not understand this?

    The way I am using the word mind, is that everything is the mind and there is nothing outside of it.
    In your terms it might be called pure consciousness or awareness.

    Quote Are you undertaking the lessons in the course in miracles? Or undertaking any other spiritual practice ie meditation at present?
    Yes, I do meditation and reading (ACIM), I have read much of this thread 4-5 times and several posts more than that.


    As you say "The goose is already out, it was never in".
    Why try to convince me of that which I already know?
    Last edited by Rich; 18th March 2019 at 04:09.
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  5. Link to Post #363
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by Rich (here)
    No, it is really about letting go of thoughts and concepts.
    Do you seriously believe that I do not understand this?

    As you say "The goose is already out, it was never in".
    Why try to convince me of that which I already know?
    Hi Rich,

    Actually it is more about letting go of the conceptual “I” which identifies with the phenomena of thoughts and concepts. It is this I which causes the experience of separation, the “we” or “parts” in “God”.

    It is apparent from your posts that while you understand/know this, you are still writing from an intellectual understanding, not from the “perspective” of realisation, a state wherein there is no identification, either as a body, as a mind/ego, or as a human ie

    The way I see it, as a human, the job is Never done, because we cannot have both Reality and Illusion at the same time, no human can have God consciousness but they can let go of the dream/human temporarily and see Reality.

    It is true that we can consider our self God in a way, because we are part of God, we are the same mind, but God being our Source and Creator S/He is bigger.

    Tim you were right, there was some ego to let go off, the ego struggled for a while lol. But your message was really helpful.


    This assessment may be incorrect, for it is difficult to ascertain on an internet forum the seekers level of preparation. Which is why specific questions were asked to clarify both the nature and the timing of how and when you came to the understanding that you don’t have an ego, and are one with God. Claims which many would equate with enlightenment, or the very God Consciousness you say no human can have. Even the very word Human is itself indicative of the inherent potential to realize God/Self…

    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post597294

    These questions were asked to assess how best to respond to your statements. It would be a disservice to you to acknowledge your awakening prematurely. Regardless of where you are at, no judgement was intended, any observations made were made with Love, and a genuine intent to assist you, and any others who are dealing with similiar issues.

    If it is the case that “the goose is out”, nothing further need be said.

    If on the other hand, you come to find you are not yet free, the best course is to attend to your practice. To get caught up in questions and discussions, be they theological, philosophical or metaphysical, simply prolongs the dream…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parabl...Poisoned_Arrow

    It would be helpful to have a short response to the first 3 questions in my last post, and a brief description of your current meditation technique, should you wish to continue our interaction. You can PM me if you would prefer to continue privately,

    Namaste
    tim
    Last edited by Shadowman; 22nd March 2019 at 03:13.
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by tim (here)
    Hi Rich,

    Actually it is more about letting go of the conceptual “I” which identifies with the phenomena of thoughts and concepts. It is this I which causes the experience of separation, the “we” or “parts” in “God”.



    Quote This assessment may be incorrect, for it is difficult to ascertain on an internet forum the seekers level of preparation.
    Indeed, not even I know what level I am on
    Waking up is an on going process, it does not stop.

    Quote Which is why specific questions were asked to clarify both the nature and the timing of how and when you came to the understanding that you don’t have an ego, and are one with God. Claims which many would equate with enlightenment,
    I do not make these claims.
    I believe as long as you have a body you have an ego.


    Quote or the very God Consciousness you say no human can have. Even the very word Human is itself indicative of the inherent potential to realize God/Self…
    Everyone is free to realize truth, but when you see it, there is no human left, but you come back to being human after that.


    Quote These questions were asked to assess how best to respond to your statements. It would be a disservice to you to acknowledge your awakening prematurely. Regardless of where you are at, no judgement was intended, any observations made were made with Love,
    I know we are Love


    I think we should give it a rest, at least for now, just one more video I want to post that might be of interest to you.
    It is a joke to think that time can come to circumvent eternity. ~ACIM

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  9. Link to Post #365
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Maybe this might be of interest to you tim, watch this from 1:17 to about 1:30 he explains his experience of going from enlightenment to meeting God.
    It is a joke to think that time can come to circumvent eternity. ~ACIM

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  11. Link to Post #366
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by Rich (here)

    Quote Which is why specific questions were asked to clarify both the nature and the timing of how and when you came to the understanding that you don’t have an ego, and are one with God. Claims which many would equate with enlightenment,
    I do not make these claims.
    I believe as long as you have a body you have an ego.
    Quite so, you don't make these claims Rich, Emex did . Or Perhaps Emexe's posts #357, #358 & #360 were misunderstood;

    "I do not think my ego is real,"

    "Tim you were right, there was some ego to let go off, the ego struggled for a while lol."

    "But we are one with God."


    So is it the body then that "has" an ego, albeit unreal? Or else who is the "you" that has a body and an ego?

    Lol, nothing unreal (including bodies and ego's) actually exists. And nothing real can be threatened, yes?

    But in the end, lol, you had me at "we are love". As good a starting point as any

    All the best on your journey
    With Love
    tim
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    When people say "God is Love" I feel like they're breaking the language lol
    "We are Love" sounds a whole lot better.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by petra (here)
    When people say "God is Love" I feel like they're breaking the language lol
    "We are Love" sounds a whole lot better.
    It was a concession to Rich, but perhaps breaking the language was the idea in the expression, kind of like a koan breaks the spell of the mind.

    In silence what appears as two is found to be one love...



    After awakening personalised love songs take on a divine flavour, lol...



    I can see beyond forever
    Everything we are will never die
    Loving's such a beautiful thing



    With (One) Love
    tim
    Last edited by Shadowman; 19th April 2019 at 23:08.
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by tim (here)
    Quote Posted by petra (here)
    When people say "God is Love" I feel like they're breaking the language lol
    "We are Love" sounds a whole lot better.
    It was a concession to Rich, but perhaps breaking the language was the idea in the expression, kind of like a koan breaks the spell of the mind.

    In silence what appears as two is found to be one love...

    After awakening personalised love songs take on a divine flavour, lol...

    With (One) Love
    tim
    That sounds so sweet! It's a shame personalized love songs make me want to throw up, because they're really beautiful. Lol..

    I like the swan photo, that's beautiful 😀

    "Breaking a spell of the mind" is great. I remember thinking "I'm breaking out of my programming!" and then laughing at it. Programming.... ha ha ha

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by tim (here)
    The main area of contention with bob was his assertion that there is no Self, with a capital S, (in the absolute sense) as well as no self in the relative sense, which was responded to here...

    If, as bob suggests, there is no self, who then does he propose is "here to learn how to do the right thing"?
    I think he means consciousness without a self/Self can learn to do the right thing, so from that assumption any self is a unreal.
    An interesting thought, there is a video from Jac O'Keeffe where she makes the statement that Beingness is a concept too:

    Last edited by Rich; 15th April 2019 at 17:10.
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by Rich (here)
    I think he means consciousness without a self/Self can learn to do the right thing, so from that assumption any self is a unreal.
    An interesting thought, there is a video from Jac O'Keeffe where she makes the statement that Beingness is a concept too:
    Hi Rich,

    Lol, consciousness without the Self is metaphorically a cloud without the sky, or a wave without the ocean.

    You are still intellectually confusing the Absolute (Self/Pure Awareness) with the Relative (self/conditioned consciousness). Which is perfectly understandable, lol, the english language is not ideal for expressing non duality. Words like self, consciousness, mind, awareness, god, reality, meditation, existence etc can have entirely different meanings depending on the context and intent of any communication.

    Consciousness*, learning, and all concepts of right and wrong, being and not being, truth and untruth, real and unreal, are relative.

    Characters in a movie/dream, irrespective of their identification (or alleged non-identification**) with an I or self, are appearances in relativity/duality only. As the source, (ie the “light” which allows the characters to appear on the movie screen, or the “dreamer” which allows for all the characters in the dream), they are real, but as dream or movie characters they are unreal.

    What Jac refers to as “Prior to consciousness” (of which she is reluctant to speak, given her experience is expressed as erratic only) is the Self referred to in the OP. She uses the term "Being" relatively on the whiteboard, in that sense “to be or not to be”, are two opposite concepts in duality. However her use of the term Not Being is ironically then used as a pointer towards the substrate or plenary reality which is eternal and unchanging.

    The Supreme/Absolute/Self cannot be known or understood. Words, meanings and definitions are all just concepts pointing towards the indefinable/ineffable. Discussion without practice is futile. It is like constantly making maps while never exploring. Don't get caught up on the words (finger), or you will go around in endless circles, look where the finger is pointing.

    Your recent epiphany is an important step. If possible, discipline yourself to sit in silence for as long as possible each day, preferably at the same time initially. Rest in what you refer to as the energy behind all appearances, remaining as the non personal witness of all objective phenomena. The final step, Self Realisation /Mahasamadhi/ Manonasa /Heaven/Nirvana/Turiya happens naturally and spontaneously.

    Do you have a daily practice currently Rich? Doing nothing is sometimes misunderstood to mean not undertaking a sadhana/practise.

    In Lak'ech
    tim

    * In this context, mind/body consciousness with a conceptual “I” or ego.

    ** ie “I do not think my ego is real” , lol.
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    An Easter message of encouragement;

    Materialists and atheists believe that day by day they are coming closer to death.

    But while all things must pass in actuality all that dies is the ego and day by day you are coming closer to Awakening/Enlightenment/Self/God, so don't stop digging (practising your sadhana/meditation), you may be closer than you think...







    With Much Love
    In Lak'ech
    tim
    Last edited by Shadowman; 19th April 2019 at 23:45.
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    From my perspective, this experience related here tells about forgetting about yourself. This makes you vulnerable to be manipulated by someone else’s mind. How can you reach enlightenment, if you’re a puppet of someone else? I wish I could get some kind answer to my humble question. Thank you. Blessings to all. Love, peace and union forever. So lucky that I found you to repair my disgraceful soul. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you again.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by Marta (here)
    From my perspective, this experience related here tells about forgetting about yourself. This makes you vulnerable to be manipulated by someone else’s mind. How can you reach enlightenment, if you’re a puppet of someone else? I wish I could get some kind answer to my humble question. Thank you. Blessings to all. Love, peace and union forever. So lucky that I found you to repair my disgraceful soul. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you again.
    Thanks for your post Marta.
    It takes some time to get out of concepts and conditioning.
    In simplicity--your soul is perfect and in no need of repair or anything else.
    The persona the me is constantly changing and attitude can be improved but what your really are is eternal--- you temporarily inhabit a human body and all that goes with that.
    The ego is very powerful but it is just a though that you identify with--me and mine etc.
    Life is full of ups and downs but its not personal-- you dont have to take events personally--just investigate what you really are.
    I had in mind to post the next bit before reading your post it may be helpful
    Stick around--good to see you on this thread.
    Love Chris

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-51093672


    'My silent retreat obsession changed my life'
    By Jim Farthing Newsbeat reporter

    6 February 2020


    A few years ago, Gemma Needham was stuck in a job she didn't love, while struggling with stress and anxiety.

    Then a friend recommended a book on meditation.

    "I was doing my job for the money and had various relationships which weren't great," she tells Radio 1 Newsbeat. "The book gave me perspective, I felt so much calmer."

    The 26-year-old started meditating at home in Nottinghamshire, before deciding she wanted to take things up a level.

    She looked online for silent retreats - holidays where you meditate and don't speak to anyone, sometimes for several days at a time. Then, she booked a three-day visit to a retreat near Exeter, not knowing what to expect.

    "It was tough at first but absolutely life-changing."
    Image copyright Gemma Needham
    Image caption Gemma first started meditating at home on her own

    "I was the youngest there and I was sharing a room with five strangers.

    But, she says, at least there was no need to make small talk with strangers.

    "That would have been much more awkward."

    Over the past three years, Gemma has done 10 silent retreats - some for up to 12 days long.

    "I was definitely addicted - one year I did five retreats. When you come out, it's like the world is a different place."
    Image copyright Gaia House
    Image caption A typical bedroom at the retreat where Gemma would share with five other guests

    Since she started attending retreats, Gemma has turned her life around. She's quit her job, deleted Facebook, started learning the piano and begun a new career in healthcare.
    'Everything in my life has changed'

    But it wasn't an immediate transformation. At first, she found meditating for long periods a slog.

    "An hour's meditation in a hall with 100 people is different from 20 minutes alone at home. Thoughts and feelings you're unaware of can come up, and when you're with that many people, you feel like you can't just get up and leave."

    It wasn't until her fifth retreat that she had her "lightbulb moment".

    "I woke up in the middle of the night, everybody was asleep, it was pitch black and something in my mind clicked."

    Gemma says it made her see difficult situations in a new light.

    "I realised that if something seems stressful, the way you see it is not the only way of looking at it."
    Image copyright Gemma Needham
    Image caption Gemma says meditating helped her conquer a phobia of needles

    She quit her office job and joined the ambulance service, which she never thought would be possible.

    "Before I started meditating, I had a bad needle phobia. When having an injection, I would need to be pinned down by four people - it was awful."

    "I'd always wanted to be a doctor and I got the A-Levels but changed my mind two weeks before the university application date."

    But now, her phobia has disappeared and she's working in nursing.

    "Everything just affects me less."

    At first, Gemma's family were surprised that she was choosing to spend her free time this way.
    Image caption Gemma in Taiwan where she visited a friend who she'd bonded over meditation with

    "They were like, 'you're a 24-year-old going on silent retreats with old people, don't you want to do more interesting things?'"

    But now, she says they can see the benefits of her unusual holiday choice.

    "I have more patience - instead of just reacting and getting angry or upset with people - I can take a step back."
    What actually happens on a silent retreat?

    Silent retreats have a long history in many religions including Buddhism, Hinduism and Christianity.

    They can be done alone or, like Gemma, in a group.

    Typically, there are no phones, reading or TV, and you are encouraged to not write.

    "Each day starts at about 6am but there are no clocks so you're woken up by someone ringing a bell," Gemma says.
    Image copyright Gaia House
    Image caption The meditation hall where Gemma would spend hours each day

    "Then you go into the meditation hall for about an hour, and after that is breakfast.

    "Everyone is sat around eating in silence, but simple things like trying to manoeuvre past people without saying 'excuse me' can be tricky.

    "If you bump into someone, you automatically say 'sorry' then you have to apologise for speaking and everyone laughs."

    The rest of the day is spent doing sitting and walking meditation, broken up by meal times.

    "Days usually end around 9pm. People tend to just go to bed because you're completely knackered."
    Image copyright Gaia House
    Image caption Some meditation is done outdoors

    And Gemma's love of retreats shows no signs of lessening - she plans to keep attending at least one retreat a year.

    "I've learnt the importance of relaxing more and looking after myself - we all just need to chill out."


    Ps I got threads mixed up-- however-- perhaps Shadowman will reply.

    Chris
    Last edited by greybeard; 6th February 2020 at 16:29.
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Thank you for your kind recommendation of a silent retreat. However, the point I was questioning was “forgetting about your ego”. I mean, I was educated in a very traditional family, a catholic one. This was programming my mind to become the perfect “catholic mother”: care about your sons, care about your parents, care about your friends or partners and care about everybody else - but you. Celebrate poverty as a virtue. The house must always be cleaned. You have to always listen to the male leader and barely speak. Please everybody and forget about what you feel, what you need. Give your everything, expecting nothing in return. How is this kind of enlightenment different from the traditional catholic roles? I have never found real happiness this way.
    Last edited by Marta; 7th February 2020 at 23:35.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    >direct, succinct
    19 pages

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by Marta (here)
    Thank you for your kind recommendation of a silent retreat. However, the point I was questioning was “forgetting about your ego”. I mean, I was educated in a very traditional family, a catholic one. This was programming my mind to become the perfect “catholic mother”: care about your sons, care about your parents, care about your friends or partners and care about everybody else - but you. Celebrate poverty as a virtue. The house must always be cleaned. You have to always listen to the male leader and barely speak. Please everybody and forget about what you feel, what you need. Give your everything, expecting nothing in return. How is this kind of enlightenment different from the traditional catholic roles? I have never found real happiness this way.
    Marta Im not really recommending silent retreat--- a step too far in the early stages of learning about yourself.
    Enlightenment is about you.
    Discovering your true nature.
    Religeon tends to be a contrast of hope and fear.
    Enlightenment has nothing to do with any of that.
    I study non-duality and in particular Advaita Vedanta
    You might find the links of interest
    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1314602

    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...ull=1#post7764

    Ego is a separation device " Edge God Out"
    Your energy is the same as the "Creator" you are not separate from That.
    It takes time to see the difference between religion and spiritual paths.
    Basically religion is all about God spirituality is about you--- what you really are, discovering Self

    Best wishes Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by Marta (here)
    From my perspective, this experience related here tells about forgetting about yourself. This makes you vulnerable to be manipulated by someone else’s mind. How can you reach enlightenment, if you’re a puppet of someone else? I wish I could get some kind answer to my humble question. Thank you. Blessings to all. Love, peace and union forever. So lucky that I found you to repair my disgraceful soul. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you again.
    Quote Posted by Marta (here)
    Thank you for your kind recommendation of a silent retreat. However, the point I was questioning was “forgetting about your ego”. I mean, I was educated in a very traditional family, a catholic one. This was programming my mind to become the perfect “catholic mother”: care about your sons, care about your parents, care about your friends or partners and care about everybody else - but you. Celebrate poverty as a virtue. The house must always be cleaned. You have to always listen to the male leader and barely speak. Please everybody and forget about what you feel, what you need. Give your everything, expecting nothing in return. How is this kind of enlightenment different from the traditional catholic roles? I have never found real happiness this way.
    Hi Marta,

    No one is asking you to become a puppet. Sometimes in life we may surrender to a teacher's guidance. Say you want to learn to ski. You can do it on your own, but generally you will become more proficient in a shorter time if you take lessons. You will likely have more confidence in a ski teacher if you have seen an exhibition of their skill. The same with submitting to surgery or dentistry. Either a teacher has been recommended, or has the right qualifications, or is simply the most convenient to your location. Whether you choose to accept guidance from a teacher or go it alone is entirely up to you.

    When it comes to inquiring into the nature of reality things aren't quite so simple. Transcending (not forgetting) the illusory concept of your ego is a tricky business and language is designed for operating in, and communication between minds, in the (relative) world. Even if you find a genuine teacher, depending upon your conditioning, programming and beliefs, you may not recognize them as such, or may misunderstand their teaching. Like other areas of life there are also charlatans ready to exploit you.

    There are links to websites and books in this thread to provide a basis for understanding the nature of "enlightenment" in the context in which it is used in this thread. There are also references to genuinely awakened teachers and practices which you can utilize yourself, at no financial cost, to directly realize who you are REALLY. And the good news is that even if it takes you a million human lives of suffering and disgrace, in the end it will all be worth it. Eventually, endless lives of ultimate dissatisfaction, what Buddha referred to as Dukkha, ripen even the "dullest disgraceful soul" and inspire us to embark on the ultimate quest, the fool's journey, the great adventure to remember that we are not the pauper but the King (metaphorically speaking).

    But you must want it above any worldly desire, whether that worldy desire be fame, fortune or pleasure (hence poverty has been considered a virtue, for the pursuit of treasures on earth is an obstacle and your time is relatively short - Matthew 6:19-21). Which is why the greatest commandment is reported to have been “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind." - Matthew 22:37

    In Lak'ech
    tim
    Minimum Awareness, Maximum Problems
    Maximum Awareness, Minimum Problems
    Total Awareness, No Problems!

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