Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

[Chester]

Hi Tim - I found this link (and I am providing the link as it is the source of the text below - be careful with the link as it appears full of popups, etc) - http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_...chidakasa.html

My question is about the text - specifically the description of Turiyatita - Is this reasonably "accurate" at least as to its pointing?

TURIYATITA: Chidakasa in Cosmic Consciousness


Under the Natural Law there are three qualities inherent in every human being. These three qualities are Purity, Activity and Inertia (Sattva, Rajas and Tamas).

Every individual is prompted to act when he is under the influence of one of these qualities predominant in him. In this way evolution of every human being takes place under an impartial Law which guarantees just and proper reward for an individual’s actions under the Law of Nature. Thus good actions lead to good results and bad actions to bad results to the doer concerned. When one undertakes a Spiritual Venture that is intuitional in character, one has to pass through five different states of the mind:


The first state is the awake or conscious state.

The second state is the dream or sub-conscious state. When we are awake we see everything around us limited by the power of our sense organs, while as we dream, we gravitate between the awakened and the dream states.

The third state is the ‘deep-sleep state’ when the mind passes through a state in which we are not normally aware of anything that happens around us. In order to pass beyond this state one has to have complete control over one’s ‘deep sleep state’ like ‘Gudakesa’.

The fourth state is the ‘Turiya’ or the ‘state transcendental’ or the ‘Serene and Blessed state’ that the Mystic Poets and Saints are reported to experience. It is the Natural Law that controls the entry into the ‘Turiya State’. This entry is possible only to one who has completely purified the mind. ‘Turiya is absolutely intuitional’ and can be experienced only in meditation or sequestered contemplation. See the Fourth Rank of the Five Ranks of Tozan.

The fifth state is ‘Turiyatita’. The great Saints and Sages such as Hui-neng, the Sixth Patriarch of C'han, and the Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi and possibly in today's world, if not in the fifth state, most certainly the fourth state, Aziz Kristof, remained in ‘Turiyatita’ when they attained a mindless-space (Chidakasa) in Cosmic Consciousness. Here the Self or the one ceases to function since the ‘mind-space’ transforms itself into mindless-space in unmitigated Spirituality, that never manifests itself. In this state, there is no question of return to the oneself, since it becomes one with the source by the Grace of Unmanifested spirituality.

TURIYATITA (Chidakasa): Zen master Tai-yung, passing by the retreat of another Zen master named Chih-huang, stopped and during his visit respectfully asked, "I am told that you frequently enter into Samadhi. At the time of such entrances, does your consciousness continue or are you in a state of unconsciousness? If your consciousness continues, all sentient beings are endowed with consciousness and can enter into Samadhi like yourself. If, on the other hand, you are in a state of unconsciousness, plants and rocks can enter into Samadhi." Huang replied, "When I enter into a Samadhi, I am not conscious of either condition." Yung said, "If you are not conscious of either condition, this is abiding in eternal Samadhi, and there can be neither entering into a Samadhi nor rising out of it." (source)


According to Vedanta, man is a combination of Bhutakasa, Chitthakasa and Chidakasa. Bhutakasa corresponds to the body and all that is seen by the naked eye. All that is seen is bound to disappear, which means Bhutakasa is transient and ephemeral. The sun, the stars and the milky way which are miles away from earth also come under Bhutakasa. The rivers, seas, forests and mountains, all form part of Bhutakasa. It constitutes all Bhutas (elements) and living beings. Such a vast Bhutakasa is engulfed by Chitthakasa. You can very well imagine the vastness of Chitthakasa. Bhutakasa consisting of sun, stars, rivers, oceans, etc., forms a tiny part of Chitthakasa. You may wonder how it is possible. Whatever you see, for example, the sun, the stars, the oceans, the mountains, etc., get imprinted in your Chittha. Likewise, the apparent world is contained in you as a small entity. Bhutaka= sa and Chitthakasa relate to the body and mind, respectively. There is a fundamental basis for these two which is referred to as Chidakasa by the Vedanta. This corresponds to the Atma. Human being is a combination of these three - Bhutakasa (body), Chitthakasa (mind) and Chidakasa (Atma). The first refers to the one you think you are, the second, the one others think you are and the third, the one you really are.

Man's nature is infinite and immortal. Such a human life is looked down upon as low and mean. People deny the existence of the Atma as it cannot be perceived. Chidakasa symbolises the Atma. It has no form. It is changeless and Transcends Time and Space. The Vedanta describes this as Nirgunam, Niranj= anam, Sanathana Niketanam, Nitya, Suddha, Buddha, Mukta, Nirmala Swarupinam (attributeless, pure, final abode, eternal, unsullied, enlightened, free and embodiment of sacredness). Bhutakasa corresponds to Jagrat (waking state), Chitthakasa to Swapna (dream state) and Chidakasa to Sushupti (deep sleep). In Chidakasa, one experiences only bliss.

[Shadowman]

Posted by justoneman (here)
Hi Tim - I found this link (and I am providing the link as it is the source of the text below - be careful with the link as it appears full of popups, etc) - http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_...chidakasa.html

My question is about the text - specifically the description of Turiyatita - Is this reasonably "accurate" at least as to its pointing?

TURIYATITA: Chidakasa in Cosmic Consciousness

The fourth state is the ‘Turiya’ or the ‘state transcendental’ or the ‘Serene and Blessed state’ that the Mystic Poets and Saints are reported to experience. It is the Natural Law that controls the entry into the ‘Turiya State’. This entry is possible only to one who has completely purified the mind. ‘Turiya is absolutely intuitional’ and can be experienced only in meditation or sequestered contemplation. See the Fourth Rank of the Five Ranks of Tozan.

The fifth state is ‘Turiyatita’. The great Saints and Sages such as Hui-neng, the Sixth Patriarch of C'han, and the Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi and possibly in today's world, if not in the fifth state, most certainly the fourth state, Aziz Kristof, remained in ‘Turiyatita’ when they attained a mindless-space (Chidakasa) in Cosmic Consciousness. Here the Self or the one ceases to function since the ‘mind-space’ transforms itself into mindless-space in unmitigated Spirituality, that never manifests itself. In this state, there is no question of return to the oneself, since it becomes one with the source by the Grace of Unmanifested spirituality.

Hi Chester,

No matter what is said here it is likely to be misunderstood by any who have not yet experienced at least samadhi/satori. Which is why I place the emphasis on practice/sadhana rather than discussion. While most can rationallly understand Turiya or detached/purified awareness, it becomes exponentially more paradoxical and non-sensical when attempting to communicate Turiyatita.

Why would an awakened being teach or make claims of enlightenment in the first place, if there are none to teach and nothing to gain or lose? Such relative questions can only be resolved through the direct realization of unconditional love and the enveloping compassion, as you so poetically put it. Unconditional love is more like the spontaneous emission of a beautiful fragrance from a flower rather than a volition.

Having said that the description above is a reasonable pointer. Enlightened teachers often have used a system of degrees or initiations to avoid imparting knowledge to those without direct experience. To others the teaching is veiled in symbolism using metaphors and parables. This is because from the point of view of the relative or illusory state the truth actually appears ridiculous, and to the established religious and political authorities, it is perceived as dangerous.

So concessions are made depending on the situation and the depth of understanding/experience of the recipient (this can be difficult to assess on an internet forum ). The above description of Turiyatita makes such concessions to the relative, linear perspective. Whilst they are not absolutely correct, they serve the purpose in inspiring seekers to attain it.

Posted by justoneman (here)
TURIYATITA (Chidakasa): Zen master Tai-yung, passing by the retreat of another Zen master named Chih-huang, stopped and during his visit respectfully asked, "I am told that you frequently enter into Samadhi. At the time of such entrances, does your consciousness continue or are you in a state of unconsciousness? If your consciousness continues, all sentient beings are endowed with consciousness and can enter into Samadhi like yourself. If, on the other hand, you are in a state of unconsciousness, plants and rocks can enter into Samadhi." Huang replied, "When I enter into a Samadhi, I am not conscious of either condition." Yung said, "If you are not conscious of either condition, this is abiding in eternal Samadhi, and there can be neither entering into a Samadhi nor rising out of it." (source)

The difficulty here is the attempt by Tai-yung to put Turiyatita into words, and the terminology that he (or more possibly the translator) uses. It is the same as the Buddhist use of the word Mind with a capital M (meaning Awareness) contrasted to the western use of the word mind (meaning intellect).

Consciousness and unconsciousness relate to the mind. So when Tai-yung asks;

"I am told that you frequently enter into Samadhi. At the time of such entrances, does your consciousness continue or are you in a state of unconsciousness? If your consciousness continues, all sentient beings are endowed with consciousness and can enter into Samadhi like yourself. If, on the other hand, you are in a state of unconsciousness, plants and rocks can enter into Samadhi."

he is really asking does Chih-huang’s waking mind, or thinking self, remain whilst he is in samadhi. (and more importantly, does Chih-huang identify with this illusory self)

Chih-huang’s answer that he is not “conscious” of either condition refers to the innate state of unseparated Awareness. By this it is meant that the mind states, including the waking/dreaming/deep sleep/conscious and unconscious are all impermanent and illusory. Therefore to not be “conscious” of either condition implies abiding in the Self or Awareness. There is no extant observer.

As you have discovered for yourself Chester, once awakened it is realized you were eternally awakened. The paradox of temporal and spatial limitation also having been realized as illusory.

Tai-yung’s closing statement;

"If you are not conscious of either condition, this is abiding in eternal Samadhi, and there can be neither entering into a Samadhi nor rising out of it."

suggest’s that the question may have been a test, and that he was all along aware of the absolute nature of Turiyatita.

While the illusion of the ego, or thinking self, may arise after episodes of samadhi, or satori have been experienced, once the final realization of Turiyatita occurs, the liberation from illusion is final and irreversible. Again, to onlookers, still identified as they are with forms, this is confusing, as the awakened being appears to continue to function as they did prior to enlightenment. Chris's post covering Ramana's comments on this is an excellent explanation for those interested;

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post777920

also relevant are two comments found while checking your link...

When the Buddha was walking along the road to Benares following his post-Enlightenment pause he was approached by a wandering ascetic. According to the custom of the time the ascetic greeted him and asked who his teacher was or what doctrine he followed. The Buddha told the wanderling that he was "the Victor and Conqueror of the World, superior to gods and men, an All-Enlightened One beholden to no teacher." The wandering ascetic could see no hint of anything of the Buddha's nature and wandered off as wanderlings are oft to do, mumbling under his breath something like, "If it were only so!"

To those identified with an ego Buddha's statement appears egotistical, to those awakened, it is simply an expression of what IS.

Those identified with forms, question the actions and statements of an awakened one, which can always be viewed as contradictory or inconsistent from a rational standpoint, rather than realizing what their actions and statements are pointing towards...

Nothing external can serve as the sign of the sannyasi (Awakened One). He may roam throughout the world, he may hide himself in caves and jungles, and equally he may live in the midst of the multitude and even share in the world's work without losing his solitude. The unperceptive will never notice him; only the evamvid (the one who knows thus) will recognize him, since he too abides in the depth of the Self. However, anyone who is already in the slightest degree Awakened cannot fail to experience something of his radiance--a taste, a touch, a gleam of light--which only the interior sense can perceive, and which leaves behind it a truly wonderful impression.

Namaste
tim

[Chester]

So much in this thread and so much in your response, Tim, to my post...

So now some more water is going to be carried, more wood is about to be chopped - here goes.

The Buddha told the wanderling that he was, "the Victor and Conqueror of the World, superior to gods and men, an All-Enlightened One beholden to no teacher." The wandering ascetic could see no hint of anything of the Buddha's nature and wandered off as wanderlings are oft to do, mumbling under his breath something like, "If it were only so!"

To those identified with an ego Buddha's statement appears egotistical, to those awakened, it is simply an expression of what IS.

I can still recall when Chester perceived ego in the enlightened. I was driving the other day "attacking my list" when I looked at my watch, saw my location and realized I was a few minutes away from the start of an AA meeting just around the corner. I rarely go but I had the strangest impulse to be with folks and so I went. It was there I observed something different than before.

I had been to thousands of AA meeting when young. Sobriety never lasted. I always wondered about those members you would see there that had this strange smile all the time. Usually never said much... when they did, 1/2 the time it seemed like rambling. Most of them "Old timers." 30 years sobriety! I would consider my age, age 30 years - I can do that and even better! But it didn't come to pass. Surely they have become some silly evangelical or something. I better stay away or they may try to convert me to some fundamentalist Christianity!

Well, I saw some of these types again this time. Something was different. I could see their enlightenment. No wonder the smile. No wonder they don't say much (unless one has the courage to speak with one privately with the desire to hear a deeper truth, one which an ego run riot does not want to hear). And then I observed "I" was one of them. I sat through the hour... didn't say a word... smiling the whole time.

I don't see myself going back anytime soon - but who knows.

Nothing external can serve as the sign of the sannyasi (Awakened One). He may roam throughout the world, he may hide himself in caves and jungles, and equally he may live in the midst of the multitude and even share in the world's work without losing his solitude.


...without losing his solitude... running into an occasional evamvid where we wink at each other with our knowing smiles.

Apparently alone yet never alone.

[Chester]

I woke up in the middle of the night last night.

As I came to consciousness, this strange sentence appeared.

"The absolute is the essence."

EDIT (2014-01-09) - when I awoke this morning, the "inner voice" suggested a tweaking of the above...

"The Absolute is the vital essence."

[Chester]

Though I have descended from the mountain top cave, Chester will never be the same. Thanks for your help in this regard, Tim and Chris.

[Chester]

This post is meant to honor tim, the creator and manager of this thread, for expressing his experience with these five states.

Thanks to tim's work here and comments on other threads and greybeard's work in the Transcending Ego thread as well as his posts on other threads (and the wonderful PMs I have exchanged with both tim and Chris), I was able to read through the following by Ken Wilber with understanding.

Forgive this cross post - perhaps I should have just made this original post in this thread.

[greybeard]

The teacher and the taught are the same.
You have taught me much Chester and Tim's encouragement and advice exceptional and much appreciated by this self.
Aside from that, the external pushes and the internal pulls.
Once the head is in the tigers mouth---its a done deal.
Enlightenment inevitable
Chris

[Chester]

May the tiger keep chewing!

[Chester]

My son just shared with me a profound dream he had last night. I believe it belongs in this thread.

He dreamed that he was being chased by bad guys. They finally caught up with him and surrounded him. He observed his body motionless and it seemed like "my spirit was chilling above my body." (his words). He then watched the bad guys run off in chase of someone else.

Essentially in the dream, he was a human being and then he was the spirit that inhabited a now lifeless body. But who was observing the spirit??!!

I asked him that question and I could see him wince at the conundrum. He, like so many, believe we are individual spirit beings. At some level that may be true, but that is a level within form. He was able to experience having to ask himself, "Who is observing the Spirit being?"

In other words, "Who is behind the who who is behind the who?!"

Gotta love it

[powessy]

Posted by justoneman (here)
My son just shared with me a profound dream he had last night. I believe it belongs in this thread.

He dreamed that he was being chased by bad guys. They finally caught up with him and surrounded him. He observed his body motionless and it seemed like "my spirit was chilling above my body." (his words). He then watched the bad guys run off in chase of someone else.

Essentially in the dream, he was a human being and then he was the spirit that inhabited a now lifeless body. But who was observing the spirit??!!

I asked him that question and I could see him wince at the conundrum. He, like so many, believe we are individual spirit beings. At some level that may be true, but that is a level within form. He was able to experience having to ask himself, "Who is observing the Spirit being?"

In other words, "Who is behind the who who is behind the who?!"

Gotta love it

I may be able to shed a little light on your sons conundrum, perhaps a different interpretation. What if the primary soul one that is not of this world but from another was the primary observer. To explain, the energy of the body is of this world and it's energy is also of here, lets say this energy is that of the higher self or earth self. So now you have you then there is the higher self then the soul who is also connected. Not all have this arrangement for most are simply from earth and are only of earth self. The observing soul knows that birth removes previous memories of previous lives and experiences, but wishes to be connected to the experiences of life, gaining experiences and energy to prolong it's stay. Just a thought nothing more.

[Chester]

Posted by powessy (here)

Posted by justoneman (here)
My son just shared with me a profound dream he had last night. I believe it belongs in this thread.

He dreamed that he was being chased by bad guys. They finally caught up with him and surrounded him. He observed his body motionless and it seemed like "my spirit was chilling above my body." (his words). He then watched the bad guys run off in chase of someone else.

Essentially in the dream, he was a human being and then he was the spirit that inhabited a now lifeless body. But who was observing the spirit??!!

I asked him that question and I could see him wince at the conundrum. He, like so many, believe we are individual spirit beings. At some level that may be true, but that is a level within form. He was able to experience having to ask himself, "Who is observing the Spirit being?"

In other words, "Who is behind the who who is behind the who?!"

Gotta love it

I may be able to shed a little light on your sons conundrum, perhaps a different interpretation. What if the primary soul one that is not of this world but from another was the primary observer. To explain, the energy of the body is of this world and it's energy is also of here, lets say this energy is that of the higher self or earth self. So now you have you then there is the higher self then the soul who is also connected. Not all have this arrangement for most are simply from earth and are only of earth self. The observing soul knows that birth removes previous memories of previous lives and experiences, but wishes to be connected to the experiences of life, gaining experiences and energy to prolong it's stay. Just a thought nothing more.

Within "the game" that could all be true! That's what makes the game fun to me.

Sadly... I am happy to have a foot in both worlds but I am probably not a good example for others. Enlightened and bored of boredom! Yuck!

[powessy]

Posted by justoneman (here)

Within "the game" that could all be true! That's what makes the game fun to me.

Sadly... I am happy to have a foot in both worlds but I am probably not a good example for others. Enlightened and bored of boredom! Yuck!

I hope one day soon the walls to the veil become a common place for all of us, a place to remember our origins and to learn the meaning of life. I hope when all is done, we will all find new meaning to this existence, and finding new meaning and purpose to our everyday actions will hopefully alleviate this boredom we all share together.

peace to you >-

[Truglivartna]

I guess "enlightenment" is a state of realization that differs from person to person. That state occurred slowly for me over a period of thirty years or more, and it is still occurring even at this moment. There was, however, a short period of time about 15 years ago (around age 63) when I found myself in heightened states of awareness that I can only describe as "turning my inner thoughts into poetry" as sentences began to develop a poetic rhythm and rhyme...something like this:

So Much For God Realization

It only lasts for a little while
and the curtain always falls
on the moment of the truth revealed
to the denizen of prison's walls,
so dense the mind…
so slow the Soul…
to respond to Spirit's calls.

How frail the tenuous hold on life
as the Life Force is withdrawn;
how dark the night as the trembling Soul
awaits elusive dawn and…
pleading…
answers to itself within
"Oh, yes… I'm here…
did you think that I had gone?"


The View From The Source

You have powers which I give you
as a demonstration of My Power.
You have wisdom only in so far
As I create it within you.
You have Freedom
only as you become more like Me.
and you become more like Me
only as I create you to be so.
Any realization short of this is separation
….but it is still Me.
Do not attempt to understand all the why’s
and the wherefores of what I do.
Remember: forever—or even tomorrow—
is too long to be doing the same thing.

[Shadowman]

The following pm and response is reproduced with the permission of EmEx;


Quote Posted by EmEx

Hi Tim,

How are things going with you?

Whenever I am about to go into the void I get scared and retreat back to human consciousness, I've had the opportunity several times
but I always get scared of annihilation/disappearing and go back to body consciousness. Is this normal,
do I just have to work on my fears until they are mostly gone and only then I am able to go into the void?

Regards, EmEx.


Hi EmEx,

All is well with me. Every day is a good day.

The I you refer to is the ego. The ego cannot free itself from itself. Ego identifies with the body/mind. Just stay with Pure Awareness, which neither gets scared, nor comes and goes anywhere, and you will realize you are the REAL, and not the unreal appearances, which includes the ego itself.

Synchronistically the following was read just last night and is directly relevant to your query;

"JUST BEFORE NINAKAWA PASSED AWAY THE ZEN MASTER IKKYU VISITED HIM. ”SHALL I
LEAD YOU ON?” IKKYU ASKED.

NINAKAWA REPLIED, ”I CAME HERE ALONE, AND I GO ALONE. WHAT HELP COULD YOU BE
TO ME?”

IKKYU ANSWERED, ”IF YOU THINK YOU REALLY COME AND GO, THAT IS YOUR DELUSION.
LET ME SHOW YOU THE PATH IN WHICH THERE IS NO COMING AND GOING.”
WITH HIS WORDS, IKKYU HAD REVEALED THE PATH SO CLEARLY THAT NINAKAWA SMILED
AND PASSED AWAY.

Death is the crescendo, the highest peak that life can attain. In the moment of death much is
possible. If you have been preparing and preparing, meditating and waiting, then at the moment
of death enlightenment is very easily possible – because death and enlightenment are similar. A
master, one who is enlightened, can easily make you enlightened at the moment of death. Even
before, whenever it happens, you have to be ready to die.

What happens in death? Suddenly you are losing your body, suddenly you are losing your mind.
Suddenly you feel you are going away from yourself – all that you believe to be yourself. It is painful,
because you feel you are going to be drowned into emptiness. You will be nowhere now, because
you were always identified with the body and the mind, and you never knew the beyond; you never
knew yourself beyond the body and the mind. You got so fixed and obsessed with the periphery that
the center was completely forgotten.

In death you have to encounter this fact: that the body is going, now it cannot be retained any more.
The mind is leaving you – now you are no more in control of the mind. The ego is dissolving – you
cannot even say ’I’. You tremble with fear, on the verge of nothingness. You will be no more.
But if you have been preparing, if you have been meditating – and preparation means if you have
been making all efforts to use death, to use this abyss of nothingness – rather than being pulled into
it you have been getting ready to jump into it, it makes a lot of difference. If you are being pulled into
it, grudgingly – you don’t want to go into it and you have been snatched – then it is painful. Much
anguish! And the anguish is so intense that you will become unconscious in the moment of death.
Then you miss.

But if you are ready to jump there is no anguish. If you accept and welcome it, and there is no
complaint – rather, you are happy and celebrating that the moment has come, and now I can jump
out of this body which is a limitation, can jump out of this body which is a confinement, can jump out
of this ego which has always been a suffering – if you can welcome, then there is no need to become
unconscious. If you can become accepting, welcoming – what Buddhists call tathata, to accept it,
and not only to accept, because the word accept is not very good, deep down some nonacceptance
is hidden in it – no, if you welcome, if it is such a celebration, an ecstasy, if it is a benediction, then
you need not become unconscious.

If it is a benediction, you will become perfectly conscious in that moment. Remember these two
things: if you reject, if you say no, you will become totally unconscious; if you accept, welcome, and
say yes with your full heart, you will become perfectly conscious. Yes to death makes you perfectly
conscious; no to death makes you perfectly unconscious – and these are the two ways of dying.
A Buddha dies totally accepting. There is no resistance, no fight between him and death. Death is
divine."

Kind Loving Regards,
tim

PS Quote is from "No Water, No Moon", by Osho.

[Truglivartna]

Beautifully put, Tim. Here's another view from the same mountain:

The Last AHA

The last Aha is when...
shortly after that moment of the final realization...
you hear...
faintly...
off in the distance...
Laughter.
And...
even more strangely...
it sounds like your own.

[sirdipswitch]

The View From The Source

You have powers which I give you
as a demonstration of My Power.
You have wisdom only in so far
As I create it within you.
You have Freedom
only as you become more like Me.
and you become more like Me
only as I create you to be so.
Any realization short of this is separation
….but it is still Me.
Do not attempt to understand all the why’s
and the wherefores of what I do.
Remember: forever—or even tomorrow—
is too long to be doing the same thing.



Perfect!!


Tim, You are correct in your last post to Em-Ex, but... we need not wait for death to... achieve...


Such confusion I read across this forum, and it's just as "Trug" says...

The Last AHA

The last Aha is when...
shortly after that moment of the final realization...
you hear...
faintly...
off in the distance...
Laughter.
And...
even more strangely...
it sounds like your own.



Yep!!! y'all are gonna look back one day and get a really good laugh...

No need to wait for death... to make the jump to "Light Speed". ccc.

[Truglivartna]

Posted by justoneman (here)
My son just shared with me a profound dream he had last night. I believe it belongs in this thread.

He dreamed that he was being chased by bad guys. They finally caught up with him and surrounded him. He observed his body motionless and it seemed like "my spirit was chilling above my body." (his words). He then watched the bad guys run off in chase of someone else.

Essentially in the dream, he was a human being and then he was the spirit that inhabited a now lifeless body. But who was observing the spirit??!!

I asked him that question and I could see him wince at the conundrum. He, like so many, believe we are individual spirit beings. At some level that may be true, but that is a level within form. He was able to experience having to ask himself, "Who is observing the Spirit being?"

In other words, "Who is behind the who who is behind the who?!"

Gotta love it

Maybe...just maybe.. he remembers the great Persian Poet, Rumi, who spoke similar words:

Who Says Words With My Mouth?

All day I think about it, then at night I say it.
Where did I come from,
and what am I supposed to be doing?
I have no idea.
My soul is from elsewhere, I'm sure of that,
and I intend to end up there.

This drunkenness began in some other tavern.
When I get back around to that place,
I'll be completely sober.
Meanwhile, I'm like a bird from another continent,
sitting in this aviary.
The day is coming when I fly off,
but who is it now in my ear who hears my voice?
Who says words with my mouth?

Who looks out with my eyes?
What is the soul?
I cannot stop asking.
If I could taste one sip of an answer,
I could break out of this prison for drunks.
I didn't come here of my own accord,
and I can't leave that way.
Whoever brought me here...
...will have to take me home.

This poetry;
I never know what I'm going to say!
I don't plan it.
When I'm outside the saying of it,
I get very quiet...
...and rarely speak at all.
Mewlana Jalaluddin Rumi

From: The Essential Rumi
By Coleman Barks

[Grizz Griswold]

Dear Tim, I have spent the last several days reading this thread and I express my gratitude to you for it.
You have given your account of Enlightenment and answered questions from a point of truth that is easily
recognizable as truth. Your patience with those who would pick apart or antagonize can only come from a
place of not seeing your brothers as separate from yourself. You come bearing gifts and freely give them to all.

I have come to a point where I listen from my heart/intuition/god/source/all that is and some awakening has taken place.
Now if something happens that the ego would usually react to, now instead, I usually just let the ego take it's licks without defending.
Maybe there is a lack of discipline or vigilance for the kingdom of God because sometimes the ego still winds up kicking my
butt. When it gets kicked and I mean sometimes really hard, I just go back to my heart and from a place of love, I would remain.
Back and forth is not what I would choose and so I ask your advice?.....Namaste.....Grizz



"By their fruits ye shall know them, and they shall know themselves."

[Shadowman]

Posted by Truglivartna (here)
Beautifully put, Tim. Here's another view from the same mountain:

The Last AHA

The last Aha is when...
shortly after that moment of the final realization...
you hear...
faintly...
off in the distance...
Laughter.
And...
even more strangely...
it sounds like your own.

Hi Truglivartna,

Thankyou for sharing your views from the mountain peak, and I bid you a warm welcome to both this thread and Avalon. Your expressed insights clearly arise from a profound realization or satori.

It is fascinating the way in which such realization can express itself in everything from the poetic to the miraculous, from deeply profound wisdom to the most tender compassion, to even the most outrageous and highly intelligent humour. It's gifts are limitless and at times awe inspiring. Your contributions are deeply appreciated,

Yours Truly in Friendship,
tim

[Shadowman]

Posted by Grizz Griswold (here)
Dear Tim, I have spent the last several days reading this thread and I express my gratitude to you for it.
You have given your account of Enlightenment and answered questions from a point of truth that is easily
recognizable as truth. Your patience with those who would pick apart or antagonize can only come from a
place of not seeing your brothers as separate from yourself. You come bearing gifts and freely give them to all.

I have come to a point where I listen from my heart/intuition/god/source/all that is and some awakening has taken place.
Now if something happens that the ego would usually react to, now instead, I usually just let the ego take it's licks without defending.
Maybe there is a lack of discipline or vigilance for the kingdom of God because sometimes the ego still winds up kicking my
butt. When it gets kicked and I mean sometimes really hard, I just go back to my heart and from a place of love, I would remain.
Back and forth is not what I would choose and so I ask your advice?.....Namaste.....Grizz



"By their fruits ye shall know them, and they shall know themselves."

Hi Grizz,

What a great pleasure it is to welcome yet another advanced spiritual aspirant to both this thread and Avalon. By advanced I mean one whom has had a direct taste of awakening, rather than one who has simply acquired a wealth of relative knowledge (sometimes referred to as a pundit or "Sutra Priest"). This of course does not preclude the learned from realization, especially in the West, where relative knowledge is the modus operandi in learning.

It is in the nature of things that generally speaking the first episodes of awakening (or satori/kensho, or kundalini, or samadhi, etc) are brief, and while exceedingly profound compared to everyday life, are but a taste of that which deepens into complete awakening or Self Realization (Nirvana, Brahman, Daigo, Turiyatita, Tao, Heaven, etc). It can be difficult to relate to others on an egoic level during satori, or perform complex tasks. Which is why ashrams and monasteries provide suitable environments to nurture the state due to their simplified environments together with the availability of teachers whom have themselves been through the experience. Initially the state is also quite subtle and fragile, and can be lost in a number of ways ie engaging in consciousness/energy/frequency lowering behaviors such as imbibing alcohol, expressing negative emotional states like anger and hatred, or ejaculation.

Your divine progression Grizz is like the opposite to a catch 22. As you practice the attributes of absolute or pure awareness, you recognize more clearly the futility of the ego and the associated suffering it brings with it. Then, as you respond less from reaction and more from acceptance, you're more in alignment with what you are really, which brings greater peace, detachment and contentment. As with all progress however it can be a case of three steps forward, two steps back. The ingrained attachments and identifications acquired over lifetimes can be difficult to break...

"Just when I thought I was out....they pull me back in" - Michael Corleone, The Godfather Pt III

With persistent practice, and the deep understanding/realization that these attachments and identifications are just illusions, the unreal appearances will evanesce. The root cause is the mind. Therefore, instead of allowing the mind's attention to be placed on the outer senses, or to perpetuate itself through fantasies, memories, conceptualization and imagination; as these movements of mind are witnessed, bring the attention of the mind "inwards" to the source awareness in which all thoughts arise, and remain there.

When it gets kicked and I mean sometimes really hard, I just go back to my heart and from a place of love, I would remain

Perfect. You already understand experientially what I am advising. It is just a matter of consistency and earnest application, whenever the illusions of ego assert themselves. It is of course helpful to have a formal practice/sadhana, on a regular basis, in a quiet space, so that confidence in maintaining the witnessing state is initially achieved with few distractions. It's like learning to drive a car. At first it helps if you don't have the radio blasting and the kids arguing in the back. But eventually the skills you learn extend beyond your training period, such that your meditation/witnessing is 24/7. Once the witnessing state is constant, the final step happens of it's own accord. The perfect reflection of the source merges with the source, so to speak.

Here is a quote from p 33 of The Collected Works of Ramana Maharshi, which you may have already read but is well worth another look. I highly recommend two books for interested readers, the aforementioned and "I Am That" by Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj. If you are not living in a spiritual community it can be helpful to read/view inspiring teachers to maintain the motivation to practice your sadhana regularly;



M: The jiva itself is Siva; Siva Himself is the jiva. It is true
that the jiva is no other than Siva. When the grain is hidden
inside the husk, it is called paddy; when it is dehusked, it is
called rice. Similarly, so long as one is bound by karma one
remains a jiva; when the bond of ignorance is broken, one
shines as Siva, the Deity. Thus declares a scriptural text.

Accordingly, the jiva which is mind, is in reality the pure
Self; but, forgetting this truth, it imagines itself to be an
individual soul and gets bound in the shape of mind. So its
search for the Self, which is itself, is like the search for the
sheep by the shepherd. But still, the jiva which has forgotten
itself will not become the Self through mere mediate
knowledge. By the impediment caused by the residual
impressions gathered in previous births, the jiva forgets again
and again its identity with the Self and gets deceived,
identifying itself with the body, etc.

Will a person become a high officer by merely looking at him? Is it
not by steady effort in that direction that he could become a highly
placed officer?

Similarly, the jiva, which is in bondage through mental
identification with the body, etc., should put forth effort in
the form of reflection on the Self in a gradual and sustained
manner; and when thus the mind gets destroyed, the jiva would
become the Self.l4

The reflection on the Self which is thus practised constantly
will destroy the mind, and thereafter will destroy itself like
the stick that is used to kindle the cinders burning a corpse. It
is this state that is called release.


12 “Of all yogins, only he who rests his unwavering mind and love in me is dear
to me.” — Bhagavad Gita

13 “Of the means to release only bhakti (devotion) may be said to be the highest.
For, bhakti is constant reflection on one’s own Self.” — Vivekachudamani


If you have any further queries I would be only too happy to respond, either on this thread, or via pm. It is a pleasure to interact with one of such humility, good humour, kindness and an authentic desire for awakening,

With Love and Friendship,
tim