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Thread: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    Dr David Hawkins said there is a final door and only God wallks through that.
    He said ther is only one death and "his" experience was one of terror as the ego-- self what ever you want to call the personal I finally died.
    Then the mind was totally silent ( he had to re-awaken the ability to comunicate before teaching began
    There was a silent temptation before the death happened.
    There after it was as though a black and white world tturned into technicolour.
    He then saw divinity shining forth in everything.
    He spent years in isolation as the initial "enlightenment" matured/ evolved before the final death.
    He said that was "his" destiiny and even lower level of "enlightenment" feel complete but he had to surrender them.
    In his last life time he went into the void that seemed complete but lacked Love.
    He warned that the path of negation could lead to the void.
    He had to come back to resolve this and the question of existance verses non-existence.
    It was thirty years before he could speak of "enlightenment"
    I dont see why he would missinform about al this.
    My post is all over the place as I am not articulate today--- sorry.

    Chris

    I don't think this is necessarily about misinforming, Chris.

    I think teachings are open to interpretations. I remember when I first read I Am That and then when I picked it up again months later. It was like reading two different books. Of course, the words hadn't changed but I was filtering Nisargadatta's teachings through my own beliefs, understandings, conditioning etc.

    I still have plenty of beliefs left it seems, even though I thought a lot of them had fallen away. Discussions like these are digging out these beliefs.

    Adyashanti taught me a very important question to ask myself when I believe something - Am I 100% certain this is true?

    Many beliefs have fallen away in the asking of this question. Now it seems even the idea/belief of enlightenment is falling away when I ask the question.

    Can I be 100% certain that enlightenment is something that really happens?

    No, I can't. However I do believe what people are telling me is true when they say it. But have I filtered their words through my own limited understanding ......or have they taken their experiences to be the absolute truth when they have stopped short of it, or because it is not available to them in this 3D life?

    Jeanette
    Last edited by Jenci; 19th April 2012 at 17:22.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by Jenci (here)
    What next? Physical death is a bit extreme to realise the absolute truth, lol.
    Hiya Sister!

    You exhibit a lot of clarity in your inquiry! Thanks for your willingness to investigate these matters more deeply!

    To the point above, realizing some "absolute truth" is really just another fantasy. Living life with impeccable integrity is the way we pass the tests. Having passed the tests in this kindergarden of a realm, we can move on to the next curriculum.



    Edit to add:

    I'd say that Nisargadatta's point was that his own nde showed him that what he had taken for some "final" realization before was not at all the end of the story. As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, the same thing happened to me, so I can particularly relate to that.

    Last edited by another bob; 19th April 2012 at 17:48.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...


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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Hi all,

    The purpose of this particular thread, was to offer a direct account of the moment of awakening/enlightenment/self realization. And to offer the wonderful news that you don’t need to be special, or rich, or knowledgable, or chosen, or the son of god, or already enlightened on some other planet or in some other realm/dimension/density (lol), or “hardwired” to receive the “apparently” overwhelming influx of energy that would “fry” a human being (lol), sigh, or be free of any other limitation/reason/philosophical obstacle (that the mind/ego and the various priests/boffins would have you believe, and upon which their “authority” and sometimes livelihoods depend ) to realize the Self.

    For some on this thread “my” claim of enlightenment has presented an immediate red flag or obstacle. Justly so, for there are many who prematurely make such a claim, and such claims are difficult to validate in an internet forum. I attempted to define enlightenment in the OP by the realization, letting the state described speak for itself, and to delineate in words between the transcendental state of the witness (sometimes referred to as Turiya/Kensho/Satori) and the final awakening or complete enlightenment (sometimes referred to as Turiyatita/Daigo/Non Duality/Brahman/The Kingdom of Heaven/etc) in post #45.

    As this final state is diametrically opposed to that which your 5 senses and mind tell you whilst in the relative dualistic state, it can be hard to accept and appears nonsensical to those of a worldy view. Which is why the emphasis should be on realizing that absolute state, rather than discussing it, then all will be perfectly clear.

    To get caught up in relative definitions, what name to give it, etc is to make the great mistake referred to by Sosan in the Hsin Hsin Ming of using the discriminating mind to seek Mind, to use the limited to seek the unlimited. Any movement of the discriminating mind is the illusion or if you like, the clouds, which prevent the clear view of the sky.

    What is required is a deep and profound insight into the nature of the predicament you find yourself currently in, which is the first of Buddha’s four noble truths. Chris makes the following point;

    Yes I know all is an illusion but knowing that is not necessarily helpful.
    I can proclaim till I am blue in the face that I am the Ocean, that I am beyond even awareness, but that is not the current state.

    Eckhart Tolle asked a man when was he born-- the man gave the spiritually correct answer " I was never born etc"
    Eckhart said "Yes that was true but not when he said it." -Chris #63


    So, as long as you “appear” to exist as a mind/body subjective self, relative to an externally existing universe, you are dreaming. And it is relatively easy to notice whether you are still identified with the mind/body/ego. Are you still subject to fear, anger, lust, greed and attachments? This is in no way meant to be taken as a judgement, but be honest with yourself, acknowledge where you “appear” to be.


    It’s all very well to say there is no Self, or no God, or that there is nothing to be done and no one to do it, (which may or may not be true in the absolute sense) but if you acknowledge “you” are still suffering, if “you” are still attached in any way shape or form to any thing, be it a philosophical truism, a child, your body, your car, your job, your religion, etc etc - then you are subject to all that goes along with such attachments, ie fear, desire, anger, etc.

    Only unconditional love is real and eternal, for it is your nature, not something you do, or something which requires a reason to be. Anger, fear, desire, conditional love, etc, are all predicated on being delusional, on identifying with that which you are not, in thinking you have something to gain, or something to lose, or something to become (lol, including enlightened).

    Your mental habits/beliefs/sanskaras/patterns in which you daily engage in self hypnosis are difficult to break free from. Just being aware on a daily basis how much of your energy/effort/thoughts are spent attending to the needs/desires/wants of your body/mind/ego, and how automatic it has become, should convince you that undoing this illusion won’t necessarily be a “walk in the park”. Further you are surrounded by and large by people suffering from the same delusion, and you all reinforce one another’s limitations, sometimes patting each other on the back, when you agree with each other, and other times killing one another.

    So, those who are genuine/authentic/focused on attaining Self Realization/God/Enlightenment will benefit from those whom have “trod the path” before them and counter the daily ego hypnosis initially with a sadhana/practice/meditation/service where one’s mind rests/subsides/focuses on God/Self/Awareness.

    While there is a substantial increase in energy in the body as one conserves more energy in not engaging in egoic indulgences/pursuits, and while such energy can manifest in interesting ways, it is a mistake to assume enlightenment or self realization happens within the physical vehicle. As suggested in the OP at the moment of enlightenment, one does not go anywhere, or become something greater. The ocean does not “squeeze” into the wave, lol, the wave, which only “appeared” separate, simply subsides, the illusion clears and all is well - all is far better than well .

    The silly old goose never really was in a bottle and never could get cooked/fried....

    http://kpguru.blogspot.com.au/2010/03/goose-is-out_20.html

    The following is a quote from Nisargadatta's I Am That. Partly to point out that it is not that uncommon for genuinely enlightened beings to acknowledge their awakening, (even Jesus states it in his own way, "I and the Father are one"). And partly to show that while he acknowledges that in the end, the natural enlightened state is effortless, relatively, like most others, it comes about through both training/sadhana and realization. The key is in simplifying ones life so that devotion to the goal of Self/God Realization takes precedence over all worldy pursuits. Or as Jesus put it, love God with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul...


    Questioner: Kindly tell us how you realized:

    Maharaj: I met my Guru when I was 34 and realized by 37.
    Q: What happened? What was the change?

    M: Pleasure and pain lost their sway over me. I was free from
    desire and fear. I found myself full, needing nothing. I saw that
    in the ocean of pure awareness, on the surface of the universal
    consciousness, the numberless waves of the phenomenal
    worlds arise and subside beginninglessly and endlessly. As
    consciousness, they are all me. As events they are all mine.
    There is a mysterious power that looks after them. That power is
    awareness, Self, Life, God, whatever name you give it. It is the
    foundation, the ultimate support of all that is
    ,
    just like gold is the
    basis for all gold jewellery. And it is so intimately ours! Abstract
    the name and shape from the jewellery and the gold becomes
    obvious. Be free of name and form and of the desires and fears
    they create, then what remains?


    Q: Does this spontaneous response come as a result of realization,
    or by training?
    M: Both.
    Devotion to your goal makes you live a clean and orderly
    life, given to search for truth and to helping people, and
    realization makes noble virtue easy and spontaneous, by removing
    for good the obstacles in the shape of desires and fears
    and wrong ideas.
    Q: Don’t you have desires and fears any more?
    M: My destiny was to be born a simple man, a commoner, a
    humble tradesman, with little of formal education. My life was of
    the common kind, with common desires and fears. When,
    through my faith in my teacher and obedience to his words, I
    realized my true being
    , I left behind my human nature to look
    after itself, until its destiny is exhausted. Occasionally an old
    reaction, emotional or mental, happens in the mind, but it is at
    once noticed and discarded. After all, as long as one is burdened
    with a person, one is exposed to its idiosyncrasies and
    habits.
    Q: Are you not afraid of death?
    M: I am dead already.
    Q: In what sense?
    M: I am double dead. Not only am I dead to my body, but to my
    mind too.

    Last edited by Shadowman; 20th April 2012 at 08:13.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Hello Tim

    Gotta ask...so can you walk through walls, know the mind of every sentient being, manipulate matter, produce emanations etc? I have heard that enlightened beings are able to do such things. That would be really nifty!!

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Hi Tim:

    Forgive me please but there is something here that I would like to put forth for your consideration. You need not believe a word of it but at least consider it.

    Anotherbob has experienced at least two NDE's and hence gained tremendous knowledge as a result from direct experience and I would submit to you that they were out of body as well.

    My experiences all came as a result of my ability to astral/soul travel as I was born with that ability, as is everyone. My desire to find "god" became an all consuming passion at around 28 years of age. Earthly searching was fruitless for me so my only recourse was to develop my astral abilities beyond the astral to go beyond, hence soul travel.

    I must second what Anotherbob has stated because it was the truth as I found it to be. When I went into much higher spiritual regions, I was exposed to unimaginable Light, unimaginable raw energy and ultimately Love beyond imagination-absolute, complete, unconditioned.

    The problem seriously arose when it was time to get back in the body. Well that wasn't going to immediately happen. The more I tried to get back in the body, the more I had to experience what was exquisite ecstasy and profound agony. For a time, I was literally hanging on physically for half seconds at a time and I am completely dead serious. The only way the final merging was going to happen was to find a way to begin dumping spiritual energy on one side and raising the body energies on the other. Not an easy task at all, yet I had no choice if I wanted to retain a physical body.

    So what it boiled down to was total enlightenment without a body or give it up (mostly) to retain a physical body. I found that dumping light energy was tantamount to giving up enlightenment. That was observed after the fact as at the time I found myself too busy trying to literally survive.

    So yes, exposure to too much can fry or kill the body in a heartbeat. Take this story for what ever you feel it is worth. It is simply offered for your consideration.





    Quote Posted by tim (here)
    Hi all,

    The purpose of this particular thread, was to offer a direct account of the moment of awakening/enlightenment/self realization. And to offer the wonderful news that you don’t need to be special, or rich, or knowledgable, or chosen, or the son of god, or already enlightened on some other planet or in some other realm/dimension/density (lol), or “hardwired” to receive the “apparently” overwhelming influx of energy that would “fry” a human being (lol), sigh, or be free of any other limitation/reason/philosophical obstacle (that the mind/ego and the various priests/boffins would have you believe, and upon which their “authority” and sometimes livelihoods depend ) to realize the Self.

    For some on this thread “my” claim of enlightenment has presented an immediate red flag or obstacle. Justly so, for there are many who prematurely make such a claim, and such claims are difficult to validate in an internet forum. I attempted to define enlightenment in the OP by the realization, letting the state described speak for itself, and to delineate in words between the transcendental state of the witness (sometimes referred to as Turiya/Kensho/Satori) and the final awakening or complete enlightenment (sometimes referred to as Turiyatita/Daigo/Non Duality/Brahman/The Kingdom of Heaven/etc) in post #45.

    As this final state is diametrically opposed to that which your 5 senses and mind tell you whilst in the relative dualistic state, it can be hard to accept and appears nonsensical to those of a worldy view. Which is why the emphasis should be on realizing that absolute state, rather than discussing it, then all will be perfectly clear.

    To get caught up in relative definitions, what name to give it, etc is to make the great mistake referred to by Sosan in the Hsin Hsin Ming of using the discriminating mind to seek Mind, to use the limited to seek the unlimited. Any movement of the discriminating mind is the illusion or if you like, the clouds, which prevent the clear view of the sky.

    What is required is a deep and profound insight into the nature of the predicament you find yourself currently in, which is the first of Buddha’s four noble truths. Chris makes the following point;

    Yes I know all is an illusion but knowing that is not necessarily helpful.
    I can proclaim till I am blue in the face that I am the Ocean, that I am beyond even awareness, but that is not the current state.

    Eckhart Tolle asked a man when was he born-- the man gave the spiritually correct answer " I was never born etc"
    Eckhart said "Yes that was true but not when he said it." -Chris #63


    So, as long as you “appear” to exist as a mind/body subjective self, relative to an externally existing universe, you are dreaming. And it is relatively easy to notice whether you are still identified with the mind/body/ego. Are you still subject to fear, anger, lust, greed and attachments? This is in no way meant to be taken as a judgement, but be honest with yourself, acknowledge where you “appear” to be.


    It’s all very well to say there is no Self, or no God, or that there is nothing to be done and no one to do it, (which may or may not be true in the absolute sense) but if you acknowledge “you” are still suffering, if “you” are still attached in any way shape or form to any thing, be it a philosophical truism, a child, your body, your car, your job, your religion, etc etc - then you are subject to all that goes along with such attachments, ie fear, desire, anger, etc.

    Only unconditional love is real and eternal, for it is your nature, not something you do, or something which requires a reason to be. Anger, fear, desire, conditional love, etc, are all predicated on being delusional, on identifying with that which you are not, in thinking you have something to gain, or something to lose, or something to become (lol, including enlightened).

    Your mental habits/beliefs/sanskaras/patterns in which you daily engage in self hypnosis are difficult to break free from. Just being aware on a daily basis how much of your energy/effort/thoughts are spent attending to the needs/desires/wants of your body/mind/ego, and how automatic it has become, should convince you that undoing this illusion won’t necessarily be a “walk in the park”. Further you are surrounded by and large by people suffering from the same delusion, and you all reinforce one another’s limitations, sometimes patting each other on the back, when you agree with each other, and other times killing one another.

    So, those who are genuine/authentic/focused on attaining Self Realization/God/Enlightenment will benefit from those whom have “trod the path” before them and counter the daily ego hypnosis initially with a sadhana/practice/meditation/service where one’s mind rests/subsides/focuses on God/Self/Awareness.

    While there is a substantial increase in energy in the body as one conserves more energy in not engaging in egoic indulgences/pursuits, and while such energy can manifest in interesting ways, it is a mistake to assume enlightenment or self realization happens within the physical vehicle. As suggested in the OP at the moment of enlightenment, one does not go anywhere, or become something greater. The ocean does not “squeeze” into the wave, lol, the wave, which only “appeared” separate, simply subsides, the illusion clears and all is well - all is far better than well .

    The silly old goose never really was in a bottle and never could get cooked/fried....

    http://kpguru.blogspot.com.au/2010/03/goose-is-out_20.html

    The following is a quote from Nisargadatta's I Am That. Partly to point out that it is not that uncommon for genuinely enlightened beings to acknowledge their awakening, (even Jesus states it in his own way, "I and the Father are one"). And partly to show that while he acknowledges that in the end, the natural enlightened state is effortless, relatively, like most others, it comes about through both training/sadhana and realization. The key is in simplifying ones life so that devotion to the goal of Self/God Realization takes precedence over all worldy pursuits. Or as Jesus put it, love God with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul...


    Questioner: Kindly tell us how you realized:

    Maharaj: I met my Guru when I was 34 and realized by 37.
    Q: What happened? What was the change?

    M: Pleasure and pain lost their sway over me. I was free from
    desire and fear. I found myself full, needing nothing. I saw that
    in the ocean of pure awareness, on the surface of the universal
    consciousness, the numberless waves of the phenomenal
    worlds arise and subside beginninglessly and endlessly. As
    consciousness, they are all me. As events they are all mine.
    There is a mysterious power that looks after them. That power is
    awareness, Self, Life, God, whatever name you give it. It is the
    foundation, the ultimate support of all that is
    ,
    just like gold is the
    basis for all gold jewellery. And it is so intimately ours! Abstract
    the name and shape from the jewellery and the gold becomes
    obvious. Be free of name and form and of the desires and fears
    they create, then what remains?


    Q: Does this spontaneous response come as a result of realization,
    or by training?
    M: Both.
    Devotion to your goal makes you live a clean and orderly
    life, given to search for truth and to helping people, and
    realization makes noble virtue easy and spontaneous, by removing
    for good the obstacles in the shape of desires and fears
    and wrong ideas.
    Q: Don’t you have desires and fears any more?
    M: My destiny was to be born a simple man, a commoner, a
    humble tradesman, with little of formal education. My life was of
    the common kind, with common desires and fears. When,
    through my faith in my teacher and obedience to his words, I
    realized my true being
    , I left behind my human nature to look
    after itself, until its destiny is exhausted. Occasionally an old
    reaction, emotional or mental, happens in the mind, but it is at
    once noticed and discarded. After all, as long as one is burdened
    with a person, one is exposed to its idiosyncrasies and
    habits.
    Q: Are you not afraid of death?
    M: I am dead already.
    Q: In what sense?
    M: I am double dead. Not only am I dead to my body, but to my
    mind too.


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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    I am Enlightened to the Fact that I have a long way to go to become Enlightened... if that is even possible for a person even after a thousand life times. Anyone who says they are Enlightened is speaking from complete Ego and thus proves they are not.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    I know of no one whos free of desire,myself included,ive met a lot of practitioners over many years on the Buddhist path from many different traditions.So instead of getting rid of desire maybe simple discernment is the key,after all the Buddhas desire was to make all people equal to him,and thats a beautiful desire.In my opinion even without burning up ones karma,even with illusions still intact we can attain the Way through practise.After all we have the same nature.....regards Shijo.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Sebastion -- Thanks so much, you described the deal very well -- "returning back" is like undergoing a kind of lobotomy, and then squeezing into a dense and dumbed down wet suit. Others I've talked to who have had the experience have reported similarly. The last time, I wept and wept, though I was grateful beyond words for having been shown what I had. Prior to the experience, I was an ardent spiritual practitioner. Afterwards, that all just dropped away, like the obsolete toys of childhood.

    In any case, it's easy enough to talk the talk about "enlightenment". Just a few clicks away on google will yield hundreds of "enlightenment" descriptions. Why would one think that we need another, unless they had some position or self-image they wanted confirmed?

    What would be useful perhaps is some discussion on how one MANIFESTS their realization in everyday life and relationships. In other words, how they walk the walk. What I have found is that, unless the realization can be embodied in how we relate and act in the world, it can be more hindrance than help, and in fact bolster the "subtle ego".


    Last edited by another bob; 20th April 2012 at 14:01.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    One simple definition of enlightenment is the removal of ignorance.
    The ignorance being the thought that I am a person/an individual seperate from God.

    Eckhart Tolle saiid that the the trouble with th enlightenment "experience" is that comes then goes and thats ok as an encouragment but the state of enlightenment is not an experience. its a condition the previous is replaced.
    Most of the sages I have read say that enlightenment in this world is only a beggining and viewed as kindergarten from a higher perspective.

    Some yogis can do amazing things but are not enlightened.
    They identify with their abilities.
    The thought that the state of enlightenment, as apposed to an experience of enlightenment, is not possible in this world would seem a limiting belief system.
    With the state of enlightenment ther is no person left to claim it.
    Eckhart Tolle said that the ego expects to be an enlightened ego and that is not the case as there is no ego left.
    He also said that Kama has a certain momentum so that continues after enlightenment--- the enlightened one is very ordinary.

    Chris

    Chris
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Yes, siddhis can be developed without enlightenment.
    But does enlightenment naturally reveal siddhis?

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)
    Yes, siddhis can be developed without enlightenment.
    But does enlightenment naturally reveal siddhis?


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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Who am I? Well the question takes me to the Self, where it has taken me for some time. The Self (capital S) being the Real, as opposed to the sense of separate self, me, the person.

    That was the Real but now it is not, that is what I am coming to realise. That the Self is not real either.

    I had never considered myself as having reached the state of enlightenment (if I had to put the process of my awakening into words linear fashion) but no one does get enlightened and no one ever did, this is what I have realised. - Jenci #57


    Hi Jen,

    Ramana’s Vichara, or Self enquiry, is sometimes interpreted by the Western conditioned mind as to be approached in a logical, rational way. This can lead to the mechanical repetition of the phrase “who am I”, or an internal philosophical discussion on what it means.

    The correct application of Vichara is not really different from the correct translation/interpretation of repentance (Grk metanoia) in the bible, which is to “return to the source”, or to cease to engage in sin (Grk hemartia), which is simply “missing the point”.

    So in that sense Ramana is suggesting one’s enquiry is not so much to “think about” the source, but to remain as the source, the plenary awareness, which precedes all temporary phenomena. And whenever thoughts arise, rather than become identified with them or “caught up in them” ie “what am I doing here, this is pointless, I’m wasting my time, I could be shampooing the cat, (lol, or in your case the dog?)”, one simply treats all thoughts the same, with detached awareness.

    This is also the inner meaning of Jesus’s suggestion, do not judge. The moment you judge, you are identifying with the dualistic mind, rather than the plenary awareness, which he refers to as “the father”. The master Osho has a nice 3 point formula to keep in mind in this regard, relax, watch, don’t judge.

    Another useful metaphor is to imagine yourself sitting on a riverbank watching the water flow by. Each time the mind gets caught up in it’s “stream” of thoughts you have “fallen in” the river. Simply hop back on the bank each time you notice you have “fallen in”. With practice one slowly, slowly falls in less and less until at some point the river stops, and reality “appears”, this is true awakening.

    Avidya (ignorance of reality) is nothing more than a state of mind, in the relative sense, in which the mind/thoughts/ego, which are themselves temporary phenomena, are taken to be real. In doing so, in taking the subjective self to be real, duality arises. Both arise simultaneously, as when you awaken in the morning both the relative I and the world appear.

    You say the Self is not real. As I have suggested to others, what is meant by that depends on your definitions of Self and reality. Until one awakens, such definitions are simply mental concepts, descriptions or labels.

    It is the same with the apparent paradox of Christianity saying there is a monotheistic God, Yahweh (Hebrew Tetragrammaton - that which causes to be) or Jehovah (Latin - I am that I am), and the Buddhist position that there is no God/Self (Anatta - no self).

    Both are simply conceptual expressions in the relative dualistic language of the mind and are resolved in the state of Self Realization/ Enlightenment, which is beyond the mind.

    You go on to say no one does get enlightened and no one ever did. This is both true in the absolute sense and misleading in the relative sense. And again it depends on what your definition of enlightenment is. You say this is something you have “realized”. Respectfully I would suggest that you are using the term in the western sense of intellectual understanding. In the same sense that you have “realized” the Self is not real. And here is the test, your beliefs change, understanding changes, insight and even intuition are subject to change, but when you realize the Self in the context that I am using it, in the same context that all awakened beings use it, the Self is reality, eternal and unchanging.

    If you explore the enlightenment/self realization/awakening stories of the following you will see that relatively they have a lot in common. That from the relative viewpoint, they occurred at a certain age, at a certain place/location, at a certain time/date, and that following the “event”, they attempted to guide others to attain “it”. Further, by and large, they use relative terms such as Love, Freedom, Heaven, Moksha (Liberation) - you get the drift, it is incredibly wonderful, mystical and beautiful beyond what words/language/concepts can describe.

    Siddhartha Gautama
    Laozi
    Ramana Maharshi
    Nisargadatta Maharaj
    Osho

    I haven’t included Jesus as the moment of his enlightenment hasn’t been clearly documented. Although he clearly fits into the category of enlightened masters.

    It is also eternal life, but not in the bodily sense, as some Christian sects erroneously believe. This is not to say that advances in technology won’t lead to longer lives, Shakyamuni Buddha said in the Do-de Kalpa Zangpo [Bhadrakalpa Sutra - Eng. - The Fortunate Aeon] that at the time of the Maitreya’s manifestation, humans will have lifespans of 80,000 years, but perhaps this text was not meant to be taken literally (wink,wink, Kathie, will respond to your comments soon, insha’Allah)

    As I have elsewhere suggested Jen, the only way to really know whether enlightenment is possible is through direct “real”ization. Others can only shine the light on the path, it is you who must walk it. All sentient beings are ultimately responsible for their own awakening/salvation. Part of that path is learning discrimination, determining which system/technique/sadhana is best for you, which teachers are genuine, and which are not. Genuinely enlightened teachers are rare, but then so are genuine disciples/seekers lol, but God is no miser, if your heart is pure, if you earnestly seek Self/God Realization above all else, you can find out, in this life, directly, the answer to Ramana’s question “who am I”…

    Someone once said there are four categories of people, and gave appropriate responses to each. It would be helpful for you to discriminate which category any potential teacher fits into…

    "Knows but doesn't know he knows... asleep, wake him up.
    Knows he doesn't know... teach him, good man.
    Doesn't know he doesn't know... a fool, avoid him.
    Knows he knows... wise, follow him... "

    Namaste/Kind Regards
    tim

    PS Here's some more good news. In the beginning of your journey you think there is a choice, heaven or hell. Then, a little further into your journey it seems the only choice is either heaven now, or heaven later. And finally, you realize it is, and was always, Heaven NOW. Will this happen for you Jen? Listen carefully to the opening lyrics of this song to find out who enlightenment happens to....do not underestimate the ineffable God of Love lol;



    It is your destiny and your reality my beautiful friend.....

    Buddhahood is an experience without limits. It can happen to the young, to the old, to the white, to the black, to man, to woman. It can happen to anyone who is ready to take a jump from outside into his own Self. But reaching into yourself you do not find meaning. You certainly find a tremendous ecstasy, you are drowned in peace and silence, you feel as if thousands of flowers are showering over you; it is majestic, it is a splendor, it is a miracle, it is mystery, but it is not meaning.

    Meaning is for the ordinary things of the world, significance is for the inner. The inner is not a
    commodity, it has no price. You cannot sell it, you cannot purchase it; nobody can give it to you and nobody can take it away from you. Its status is unique in the whole universe. Everything goes on changing continuously, just like a cyclone, but your being remains the center of the cyclone without ever changing; it remains just the same. -Osho
    Last edited by Shadowman; 29th April 2012 at 01:54.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    My dreamlike form
    Appeared to dreamlike beings
    To show them the dreamlike path
    To dreamlike enlightenment. - Gautama - Kathy/Tarka #59


    Hi Kathie,

    Yes, quite so, and as long as you identify with a dreamlike form, you would be wise to follow Buddha’s dreamlike path to dreamlike enlightenment.

    The question is, are you identified with a dreamlike mind/body/ego? Only you can really know the answer to this. If you really are free then by all means be as you are.



    Hello Tim
    Gotta ask...so can you walk through walls, know the mind of every sentient being, manipulate matter, produce emanations etc? I have heard that enlightened beings are able to do such things. That would be really nifty!! -Kathy/Tarka #85


    Lol, Siddhi’s can and do occur as signposts along the journey home, the best advice is not to identify or get attached to them. Otherwise they simply strengthen the ego (which finds superpowers really nifty!). They can occur in association with Kundalini experiences. If one has not developed some degree of mental/ethical discipline, as taught in the early stages of Yoga, Christianity, Islam and Buddhism, problems can arise. The resulting energy tends to magnify whatsoever is in the mind, so if you live in love it is overwhelmingly beautiful, but if you still are prone to anger, hatred, desire, attachment, etc it can lead to painful lessons...

    The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! - Matt 6:22-23


    One should not seek nor anticipate paranormal phenomena. They should be treated as all other transient phenomena are treated, with detached awareness. They are not the goal, but can arise as both a test or a confirmation depending on the circumstances.

    Each individual’s journey to awakening is different. Siddhi’s may or may not be part of the journey, they are insignificant in comparison to the enlightened or awakened state.

    In enlightened beings, remember there is no separate doer left, there is just an unimpeded vessel through which the totality does sometimes manifest “miracles”,
    but these are still relative phenomena, and trivial compared to Self realization. Awakening brings the realization that manipulating “dreamlike matter” or producing “dreamlike emanations” or knowing the “dreamlike minds” of all sentient beings only occurs/appears in samsara to guide “dreamlike souls”.

    Student “Master, can you walk on water and fly through the air?”

    Master “Any leaf can float on water, any gnat can fly through the air,
    we are concerned with a far more important matter.”


    Namaste/Kind Regards
    tim
    Last edited by Shadowman; 27th April 2012 at 03:30.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Rather, it merely represents another fixation of identity in some sort of cosmic Self. Both self and Self need to be recognized as fantasies of interpretation on perception, with no inherent reality. -bob #40

    There is no person or even Self, period. - bob #60

    Who am I? Well the question takes me to the Self, where it has taken me for some time. The Self (capital S) being the Real, as opposed to the sense of separate self, me, the person. That was the Real but now it is not, that is what I am coming to realise. That the Self is not real either. ...and that is what, I think Bob is pointing to. -Jenci #57

    "By gosh, I think she's got it!" -bob #62


    Hi bob,

    On the one hand you quote Nisargadatta Maharaj and Ramana Maharshi, and then follow with statements which contradict their “teaching” such as those above. The following quotes may help clarify the term Self further;


    D.: When the Upanishads say that all is Brahman, how can we agree with Shankara that this world is illusory?

    B.: Shankara also said that this world is Brahman or the Self. What he objected to is one’s imagining that the Self is limited by the names and forms that constitute the world. He only said that the world has no reality apart from Brahman. Brahman or the Self is like a cinema screen and the world like the pictures on it. You can see the picture only so long as there is a screen. But when the observer himself becomes the screen only the Self remains.

    Shankara has been criticised for his philosophy of Maya (illusion) without understanding his meaning. He made threestatements: that Brahman is real, that the universe is unreal, and that Brahman is the Universe. He did not stop with the second. The third statement explains the first two; it signifies that when the Universe is perceived apart from Brahman, that perception is false and illusory. What it amounts to is that phenomena are real when experienced as the Self and illusory when seen apart from the Self. The Self alone exists and is real. - Ramana Maharshi

    The following quotes are from Wikipedia;

    The Śrīmālādevī Siṃhanāda Sūtra teaches the reality of an ultimate, immaculate Consciousness within each living being, which is the Buddhic "Dharmakāya" (essence of Truth), which is yet temporarily sheathed in obscuring defilement. This Dharmakāya, when viewed as intrinsically free from spiritual ignorance, is said to constitute Eternity, Bliss, the Self, and Purity in their perfect state. The use of the word "Self" in this sutra is in a way unique to this class of sutra (see: Ātman in Buddhism).

    Ātman (IAST: Ātman, Sanskrit: आत्मन्) is a Sanskrit word that means 'self'. In Hindu philosophy, especially in the Vedanta school of Hinduism it refers to one's true self beyond identification with phenomena. In order to attain salvation (liberation) a human being must acquire self-knowledge (atma jnana) which is to say realise experientially that one's true self is identical with the transcendent self (paramatman) that is called Brahman.

    In Vedas it means true knowledge, that one's (jiva's) self, or he himself as soul (atman) is identical (in quality sense) with Ultimate Reality Brahman (Vishnu). It is also referred to as Atma Jnana which is frequently translated as self-realization.

    The Mahāparinirvāṇa Sūtra (written 2nd century CE) was very influential in the Chinese reception of the Buddhist teachings. This sutra was understood to postulate an underlying essence, though this sutra is ambivalent. The Mahāyāna Mahāparinirvāṇa Sūtra states that Buddha-nature is everlasting, pure and blissful.

    The self of which the Buddha speaks is said by him to be the "essential intrinsic being" (svabhava) or even "life-essence" (jīvaka) of each person, and this essential being is none other than the Buddha himself - "radiantly luminous" and "as indestructible as a diamond". The Buddha-nature is taught to be an ultimate, conceptually inconceivable, immortal reality.


    Read the following quotes in purple from the link below. The section in the link entitled "Buddha-nature and True Self" is especially helpful in clarifying the Buddha's use of the term Self and what he meant by non self ie Anatta.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana..._and_True_Self



    The Buddha, in the Fa-xian version of the text, points out that worldly beings who misapprehend the authentic Buddhist Doctrine... have the notion that there is no Self, and are unable to know the True Self.

    On Buddha's teaching of "non-Self" (the "worldly self", which ultimately does not exist eternally, but obscures the True Self) and the tathagata-garbha, from the Nirvana Sutra:

    When I have taught non-Self, fools uphold the teaching that there is no Self. The wise know that such is conventional speech, and they are free from doubts.

    When I have taught that the tathagata-garbha is empty, fools meditatively cultivate [the notion] that it is extinction [uccheda], subject to destruction and imperfect. The wise know that it is [actually] unchanging, stable and eternal.

    ... just as cow's milk is delicious, so too is the taste of this [Nirvana] Sutra similar to that. Those who abandon the teaching given in this sutra concerning the tathagata-garbha are just like cattle. For example, just as people who intend to commit suicide will cause themselves extreme misery, similarly you should know that those ungrateful people who reject the tathagata-garbha and teach non-Self cause themselves extreme misery.


    Namaste/Kind Regards
    tim
    Last edited by Shadowman; 12th August 2013 at 04:12.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Hi Tim:

    It certainly appears that the last paragraph of your previous post would confirm what I have said in an earlier post.

    "Life essence" of each person (is) "radiantly luminous" and "as indestructible as a diamond".

    How could that possibly be known as a truth if it was not an awareness which resulted from an out of body state? I would proffer to you that one has to be out of the body and experience yourself as being radiantly luminous to fully understand the implications.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    While leaving to Tim to give you a definitive answer Sebastion
    Dr Hawkins said his state in non locational, omnipresent-- timeless state.
    He said people speak to the body because thats the way it is here.--- non location.
    Also an ilumined "soul" as I understand is ilumined from inside.
    Yogananda said it was like the lights of a million suns (inside) in meditation.
    So neither agreeing nor disagreeing Seb but it does seem that the luminosity/effulgence can be seen from inside and outside.

    Regards Chris
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    I agree with everything you have posted and that's where semantics becomes extremely confusing. It has been stated many times on this forum that we are spiritual beings having a human experience. Spirit comes into the body to give it life. Spirit exits the body for the last time and the body is dead.

    Who is to say that the spirit cannot leave the body to remember?/ re-experience itself as pure essence while retaining a body in 3d?

    Awareness at that frequency is not readily conducive to any vocabulary and at best, only strongly hinted at. Hence words become nearly completely useless. It has to be experienced to be fully understood and that is something only you can do for yourself. It is an alone process and none will there be who can make words for you of it. You will simply know.




    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    While leaving to Tim to give you a definitive answer Sebastion
    Dr Hawkins said his state in non locational, omnipresent-- timeless state.
    He said people speak to the body because thats the way it is here.--- non location.
    Also an ilumined "soul" as I understand is ilumined from inside.
    Yogananda said it was like the lights of a million suns (inside) in meditation.
    So neither agreeing nor disagreeing Seb but it does seem that the luminosity/effulgence can be seen from inside and outside.

    Regards Chris

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by tim (here)
    Rather, it merely represents another fixation of identity in some sort of cosmic Self. Both self and Self need to be recognized as fantasies of interpretation on perception, with no inherent reality. -bob #40

    There is no person or even Self, period. - bob #60


    Hi bob,

    On the one hand you quote Nisargadatta Maharaj and Ramana Maharshi, and then follow with statements which contradict their “teaching” such as those above.

    Hiya Tim!

    For one who has truly seen, there is no contradiction. Both self and Self are purely mental constructs, cognitive obscurations, figments of this human dream. However, It's nearly impossible to explain to a dreamer in the midst of the dream that they are still dreaming. The only way, it seems, would be to take them out of the dream, and of course that time will come for all -- no need to fret about it while we're still here. We're here to experience the dream, not to escape from it into fantasies of "enlightenment".

    On the subject of apparent contradictions, when presented with a copy of "I Am That", Nisargadatta read through a few passages, and exclaimed, "Did I say that? That's not correct at all!" Moreover, he himself once proclaimed that there is no such thing as enlightenment (as did the notorious Osho, whom you also quoted). The "enlightenment" that most babble on about is an event in human consciousness, and whatever happens in human consciousness (to quote our Friend Nisargadatta) is an hallucination. Your clinging to it merely solidifies another self-image, which in turn requires the kind of defense you've been mounting here.

    And speaking of Ramana -- David Godman, Ramana Maharshi's chief chronicler, has remarked that Ramana regularly contradicts himself, depending on the audience he is addressing. Adyashanti notes that he often contradicts himself too, so that the listener will not get stuck cherishing absolute views.

    Perhaps Rumi provided a clue to the matter:

    "This Love is beyond the study of theology,
    that old trickery and hypocrisy.
    If you want to improve your mind that way,

    sleep on.

    I've given up on my brain.
    I've torn the cloth to shreds
    and thrown it away.

    If you're not completely naked,
    wrap your beautiful robe of words
    around you,

    and sleep."


    Having shared the above, I am stepping out of this thread. If you want to continue to reify temporary "spiritual" experiences in dreamland into some kind of ultimate finality, have at it -- it's all play anyway!


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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Forgive me please but there is something here that I would like to put forth for your consideration. You need not believe a word of it but at least consider it.

    Anotherbob has experienced at least two NDE's and hence gained tremendous knowledge as a result from direct experience and I would submit to you that they were out of body as well. -Seb #86

    Hi Seb,

    In the enlightened state of Self realization there is nothing to forgive, nothing to believe, and no separate I or mind to believe it.

    NDE’s are subjective experiences within duality, as are all experiences of life and death, or of being “inside” or “outside” of a body. As long as there appears to be a subjective thinking observer, separate from whatsoever is observed, be it physical objects, emotions, concepts, unimaginable light, time, space, God(s), demons, angels, buddha’s, ghosts, aliens, etc you have not realized the Self, and are caught in the illusions of maya/mind/samsara.

    No need to take mine, or bob’s, or anyone else’s word for it, do a little research, but remember, theory without practice does not lead to realization,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-enquiry

    My experiences all came as a result of my ability to astral/soul travel as I was born with that ability, as is everyone. My desire to find "god" became an all consuming passion at around 28 years of age. Earthly searching was fruitless for me so my only recourse was to develop my astral abilities beyond the astral to go beyond, hence soul travel.

    I must second what Anotherbob has stated because it was the truth as I found it to be. When I went into much higher spiritual regions, I was exposed to unimaginable Light, unimaginable raw energy and ultimately Love beyond imagination-absolute, complete, unconditioned. - Seb #86

    "Life essence" of each person (is) "radiantly luminous" and "as indestructible as a diamond".

    How could that possibly be known as a truth if it was not an awareness which resulted from an out of body state? I would proffer to you that one has to be out of the body and experience yourself as being radiantly luminous to fully understand the implications - Seb #96


    Time, mind and space are aspects of duality/maya. The Self transcends time, mind and space. Hence it neither comes nor goes anywhere, begins nor ends, seeks nor questions, is here nor there. The Self cannot be measured or cognized in duality, nor can it be “known” or “perceived” by the ego or mind. It is neither light nor darkness, nor is it manifest energy at any point on the electromagnetic spectrum, raw or otherwise.

    Whilst still in duality it is possible to perceive a manifest form of God as an unimaginable light, unimaginable raw energy, absolute love etc, but this is not the Self, which can only be realized, not perceived.

    Who is to say that the spirit cannot leave the body to remember?/ re-experience itself as pure essence while retaining a body in 3d? -Seb #98

    Lol, bob apparently. But seriously, enlightenment or Self realization does not so much require leaving the 3d body, as awakening to the fact that you never were “in” the body, or “in” time, or “in” space, or more particularly “in” the mind. Thanks for your thoughtful comments, humility and kindness Sebastion,

    Namaste,
    tim


    Both self and Self are purely mental constructs, cognitive obscurations, figments of this human dream. - bob #99

    Hi bob,

    You appear to be confusing the finger pointing at the moon with the moon itself, so to speak. While the word Self is a mental construct, that which it is indicating towards is not, as is indicated by all realized beings so far quoted on this thread.

    The jiva which is mind, is in reality the pure Self; but, forgetting this truth, it imagines itself to be an individual soul and gets bound in the shape of mind. So its search for the Self, which is itself, is like the search for the sheep by the shepherd. But still, the jiva which has forgotten itself will not become the Self through mere mediate knowledge. By the impediment caused by the residual impressions gathered in previous births, the jiva forgets again and again its identity with the Self and gets deceived, identifying itself with the body, etc. Will a person become a high officer by merely looking at him? Is it not by steady effort in that direction that he could become a highly placed officer? Similarly, the jiva, which is in bondage through mental identification with the body, etc., should put forth effort in the form of reflection on the Self in a gradual and sustained manner; and when thus the mind gets destroyed, the jiva would become the Self. -Ramana Maharshi

    I've given up on my brain.
    I've torn the cloth to shreds
    and thrown it away.


    You are right, Rumi does provide a clue, The Self is the I that is left once all illusory attachments/identifications have been given up, the brain/mind/thoughts/ clothes/body etc. That I, unlike the thinking I/ego, is not a mental construct, it is entirely beyond the mind.

    Thanks again though for your input into this thread, you are obviously a talented and eloquent writer and “I” have immensely enjoyed your sense of humour, in this and other threads. Feel free to change your mind at any point, your comments are always welcome, even if we appear to sometimes be at odds,

    Namaste,
    tim
    Last edited by Shadowman; 30th April 2012 at 01:31.

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