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Thread: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by jcocks (here)
    Quote Posted by another bob (here)

    Now I seem to be typing out this post, and my question for the readers of this thread would be: which one of these characters gets enlightened?
    That's an easy one : All of them!

    Part of enlightenment is not passing judgement on a given situation....
    Hi jcocks,

    So true. Thanks for your wisdom, and welcome to the thread,

    Namaste/Kind Regards
    tim

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by tim (here)
    This is an account of the direct experience of awakening.

    What can be said, or written, of itself cannot reveal the truth.

    Words and language are themselves an illusory tool, an aspect of the relative dream, and can only indicate or hint towards the totality, or reality, or that which is.

    Upon the moment of awakening not only does the illusion of the relative self or ego vanish like a shadow exposed to light, but all “other” egos, or relative selves, disappear. All separation disappears, and the absolute Self is realized. All is then enlightened and whole, for there never really were separate entities that could become individually enlightened. There then is no relative doer, nor even an absolute doer, for all doing implies separation. Or something to do, or somewhere to go. And not just other humans, but the entire creation is enlightened and whole.

    Now nothing can be judged, or observed, or transcended, as there is no separate observer, nor separate objects observed, nor even separate observing.

    Here even the concept of pure awareness, the witness, unidentified with that which is observed, has dissolved into the totality. Herein lies the meaning of samsara is nirvana. The slightest separation into observer, observed and observing and samsara appears. When observer, observed and observing is an undifferentiated whole, the Self is self evident, and far more evident, than the illusory ego self.

    All that is, then is, as it really is, here descriptions do not apply.

    Now, what is missing from the above description of the direct experience of enlightenment?

    It is the pronoun, I, for in truth there is no I, either relatively or absolutely. I implies a separation from totality, as the first person singular. Whereas the adjective Self, implies being the same throughout, as the self evident united reality/totality/all that is, and is more appropriate at hinting towards the truth.

    You are in reality this Self, all else is illusion.
    Relatively, this is the end of suffering. This is the beginning of endless bliss.
    Absolutely, all suffering is unreal. Only the blissful Self is real.
    This is the eternal Truth.


    Edit to add on 2/5/12

    Insha’Allah (God willing), a response will be offered to the first comment/question of each poster, in due course.

    Due to time restraints and circumstances, subsequent comments and questions may or may not receive a response, preference will be given to authentic enquiries.

    The more heartfelt the first question/comment, the more earnest the seeker, the greater the likelihood of deriving benefit.

    Your first question/comment should cover that which you consider to be of paramount importance to your own awakening/enlightenment.

    With Love/Namaste
    tim
    Enlightenment is relative and therefore non-boolean. No one IS "Enlightened," the question is simply a matter of how "Enlightened," one is. And can that even be measured? I prefer the word, "Illuminated," myself.

    Who finds their nature to measure-
    -Who finds their fall at the end of a blade.

    Quaerendo Invenietis
    Mundus Vult Decipiatur
    Ergo Solve Et Coagula

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by wynderer (here)
    Tim --but it IS individual -- because an individual [you] is writing about it as an individual experience

    i have no problem w/being one little bit of individualized consciousness, occasionally going Home to what/where you describe so well in your post

    it's a gift to be given that spark of individuation, of individuality -- it's a great big Universe , & i'm looking forward to continuing to experience it as a individual [after i get away from this rather dark planet]-- i already know that i am part of the whole, the Oneness
    Hi Wynderer,

    Words and language can be paradoxical when hinting towards the absolute. So while I described in the OP an account of the direct experience of awakening I also suggested that this “experience” or realization occurs when the illusion of the separate relative individual observer disappears. So in the context used, experience does not denote perceived phenomena, but rather the realization of non dual plenary awareness or being, in which there is no individual.

    It then becomes a question of identity. Am I the “individual” fingers typing on the keyboard, am I the “individual” mind expressing the realization in words, or are these just phenomenal appearances appearing in what I really am.

    In other words am I the id or am I the entity. In the definitions below aspects of the definitions provided for both individual and entity can relate either to the ego/person/id or to the Self, so it can be confusing ie

    ego/person/id = A single human being, a person, a single thing, corporeal

    Self = indivisible entity, being, something that has real existence

    Duality or illusion stems from identifying with transient phenomena, which includes the ego, or individual self. In the Self, in Reality, which is “complete” and “whole” there are no parts. You can’t go home, when you already are home and never left home. But the mind can create the illusion of being separate, and as you choose to view that individuality as a gift whereby you can experience the universe from that perspective, I wish you nothing but love and joy on your journey.

    The beauty of Self Realization/Enlightenment/Nirvana is that Love and Bliss, do not depend on “getting away from this dark planet” or any other conditions or possibilities or circumstances, which may or may not occur in the “future”. It is simply realizing Here and Now, what you truly are eternally, and which can only be hinted at by words such as Truth/Existence/Awareness/Bliss. You are not a part of it - You are It!

    Kind Regards/Namaste
    tim

    in•di•vid•u•al
    noun
    1. a single human being, as distinguished from a group.
    2. a person
    3. a distinct, indivisible entity; a single thing, being, instance, or item.

    id
    noun Psychoanalysis .
    the part of the psyche, residing in the unconscious, that is the source of instinctive impulses that seek satisfaction in accordance with the pleasure principle and are modified by the ego and the superego before they are given overt expression.

    id origin
    1924, in Joan Riviere's translation of Freud's "Das Ich und das Es," from L. id "it" (translation of Ger. es "it" in Freud's title), used in psychoanalytical theory to denote the unconscious instinctual force.

    en•ti•ty
    noun, plural en•ti•ties.
    1. something that has a real existence; thing: corporeal entities.
    2. being or existence, especially when considered as distinct, independent, or self-contained
    3. essential nature: The entity of justice is universality.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/individual?s=t


    Some relevant quotes from Nisargadatta’s book I Am That -

    M: Being the source of both, the self is beyond both knowledge and power. The observable is in the mind. The nature of the self is pure awareness, pure witnessing, unaffected by the presence or absence of knowledge or liking.

    Have your being outside this body of birth and death and all your problems will be solved. They exist because you believe yourself born to die. Undeceive yourself and be free. You are not a person.

    M: Events in time and space — birth and death, cause and effect— these may be taken as one; but the body and the embodied are not of the same order of reality. The body exists in time and space, transient and limited, while the dweller is timeless and spaceless, eternal and all-pervading. To identify the two is a grievous mistake and the cause of endless suffering.

    Q: Whose facts? Yours or mine?
    M: Yours. You cannot deny my facts, for you do not know them. Could you know them, you would not deny them. Here lies the trouble. You take your imagining for facts and my facts for imagination. I know for certain that all is one. Differences do not separate. Either you are responsible for nothing, or for everything. To imagine that you are in control and responsible for one body only is the aberration of the body-mind.

    Q: Still, you have a body and you depend on it.
    M: Again you assume that your point of view is the only correct one. I repeat: I was not, am not, shall not be a body. To me this is a fact. I too was under the illusion of having been born, but my Guru made me see that birth and death are mere ideas — birth is merely the idea: ‘I have a body’. And death — ‘I have lost my body’. Now, when I know I am not a body, the body may be there or may not — what difference does it make?

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Enlightenment is relative and therefore non-boolean. No one IS "Enlightened," the question is simply a matter of how "Enlightened," one is. And can that even be measured? I prefer the word, "Illuminated," myself. -Rantaak #122

    Hi Rantaak,

    Thanks for expressing your views and welcome to the thread.

    I was using the term Enlightenment in the absolute sense, synonymous with Self Realization, Awakening, Nirvana, Bodhi, Turiyatita, Brahman, Kingdom of Heaven, etc.

    Not in the western sense of relative intellectual understanding. A more complete reading of this thread, or the links provided below, may provide further insights, if you are so inclined,

    Kind Regards/Namaste
    tim


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daigo_%28Zen%29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_%28Hinduism%29]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana..._and_True_Self
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhahood#Ten_Epithets
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tath%C4%81gata
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_%28concept%29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tathata
    Last edited by Shadowman; 5th May 2012 at 02:20.

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    I think we (I am) are fortunate to have Tim here-- not speaking of exerience which is based on subject--- object but from a state called enlightenment.

    The Indian sages have been known to say "I am the totality all of it" Its not subject experiencing an object or seperate condition its "One with out a second"

    Chris
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by tim (here)
    Enlightenment is relative and therefore non-boolean. No one IS "Enlightened," the question is simply a matter of how "Enlightened," one is. And can that even be measured? I prefer the word, "Illuminated," myself. -Rantaak #122

    Hi Rantaak,

    Thanks for expressing your views and welcome to the thread.

    I was using the term Enlightenment in the absolute sense, synonymous with Self Realization, Awakening, Nirvana, Bodhi, Turiyatita, Brahman, Kingdom of Heaven, etc.

    Not in the western sense of relative intellectual understanding. A more complete reading of this thread, or the links provided below, may provide further insights, if you are so inclined,

    Kind Regards/Namaste
    tim


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daigo_%28Zen%29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_%28Hinduism%29]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana..._and_True_Self
    There is no such thing as absolute enlightenment in a world where velocity exists. Any sentiment proclaiming otherwise is a trap.

    Quaerendo Invenietis
    Mundus Vult Decipiatur
    Ergo Solve Et Coagula

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by ljwheat (here)
    At what point dose a tiger in nature with out man’s words to ponder, become enlightened? I am "TIGER"

    Enlightened tiger? What is enlightened in nature that needs enlightened that simply accepts being the energy that is. Pure tiger, pure energy flower, pure energy a tree, bug, bird, air, mineral, the forming of energy or all things, except man with his “I have to be enlightened to be the energy I think I see. “ tiger asks another tiger what is it to be a tiger? Man only needs to be something--- even enlightened is better than just being a man.

    What in nature is not enlightened of its energy of being energy in the form it has manifested itself in at the moment. Dose a baby need to be enlightened to be birthed into this world, then why dose it need enlightenment to leave? Pure coming in pure going out energy in its being to be. A peace of source.

    A spark of life in 3D, a spark of “is” in 7D just different levels of dimensions same pure energy, just different expressions. Enlightened or not ---will not effect this energy no matter how hard you think you rap your head around the word enlightenment. Its all vanity for man, Nature has not suffered this insanity of being just man +.

    It might be because of all this BLA, BLA, BLA. Much speaking instead of being man. Tower of babble ring any bells for anyone? The Gods didn’t say “let us go down and confound the speaking of nature,”--- only men. “Why” ? because they were afraid what we would become if we were allowed to become just (MEN). Greater than even the Gods. Who are stuck in 4D. MEN free will to move between dementions and Gods and prison keepers under any lable. shhhh its a secret! oooops
    Hi ljwheat/John,

    Thanks for expressing your views and welcome to the thread.

    The clue to the difference between incarnation in the animal kingdom and incarnation into human form is in the very name itself - human. See my post at #112.

    Humans have the unique opportunity to dispel the illusion/delusion of identification with forms, be they physical, emotional, intellectual/conceptual or even spiritual. What you refer to as pure tiger, pure flower etc are not pure forms but rather the illusory or impermanent appearance of separate forms within duality.

    In order to understand the the context in which I am using the term illusory vs reality it would be helpful to examine the links offered in the opening post.

    You take the separation of forms to be pure or real, as long as you believe your waking state to be real.

    As an analogy, say last night you dreamt you were a tiger. As long as you are dreaming both your form as a tiger, together with all the other forms in your dream, ie flowers, trees, bugs and birds, appear to be separate, “pure” and real. But upon awakening you see that in fact all of the forms were imagined in the mind of the dreamer and were part of the one dream. In that sense they were neither real nor separate.

    Enlightenment is also described as awakening to the plenary non differentiated non dual substrate reality. It is like awakening from a dream. That which is realized, which defies all descriptions and definitions, but which is nevertheless variously called God, Self, Reality, Truth, Heaven, Nirvana, Brahman, etc, is both natural and real, as opposed to duality, which is illusory and unreal, and the cause of (apparent) suffering.

    Enlightenment is not something that you become, it’s more like the recognition of what you truly are, once your illusions/delusions have been dispelled. So in that sense it isn’t about becoming special, it’s more like returning home, or being whole, or “getting healed” from a hallucination inducing illness.

    If you are genuinely interested a more detailed reading of this thread and the links offered may lead you on a journey deeper down the rabbit hole towards real freedom, real peace and real security...

    With Love/Namaste
    tim


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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by Rantaak (here)
    Quote Posted by tim (here)
    Enlightenment is relative and therefore non-boolean. No one IS "Enlightened," the question is simply a matter of how "Enlightened," one is. And can that even be measured? I prefer the word, "Illuminated," myself. -Rantaak #122

    Hi Rantaak,

    Thanks for expressing your views and welcome to the thread.

    I was using the term Enlightenment in the absolute sense, synonymous with Self Realization, Awakening, Nirvana, Bodhi, Turiyatita, Brahman, Kingdom of Heaven, etc.

    Not in the western sense of relative intellectual understanding. A more complete reading of this thread, or the links provided below, may provide further insights, if you are so inclined,

    Kind Regards/Namaste
    tim


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daigo_%28Zen%29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_%28Hinduism%29]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana..._and_True_Self
    There is no such thing as absolute enlightenment in a world where velocity exists. Any sentiment proclaiming otherwise is a trap.
    Hi Rantaak,

    Consider the space inside a clay pot. It is not separate from space in general, it just appears to be confined by the form of the pot.

    In this analogy your true Self is likened to space, the pot is your mind, and the "space" in the pot is your self/ego.

    What is everywhere and eternal cannot be trapped, is not subject to the laws of physics, (which relate to manifest forms of energy, including light), and cannot be separated. It can only appear separate, by the workings of the mind (pot). You cannot "trap" space, you cannot "trap" or harm awareness. Only "forms" can appear to be trapped/controlled.

    This is why Self Realization is absolute freedom. Freedom from fear and freedom from desire. Fear and desire relate to the self/ego, manifest as a separate mind/body, which can be "trapped".

    Enlightenment is realizing you never were in the pot, you never were separate, you never were nor will be bound by forms, physical, or mental, or otherwise. To believe that you are a limited form is the fall from grace, the expulsion from "paradise", ie eating from the tree of relative knowledge,

    With Love,
    tim
    Last edited by Shadowman; 19th March 2013 at 12:26.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by tim (here)
    Quote Posted by Rantaak (here)
    Quote Posted by tim (here)
    Enlightenment is relative and therefore non-boolean. No one IS "Enlightened," the question is simply a matter of how "Enlightened," one is. And can that even be measured? I prefer the word, "Illuminated," myself. -Rantaak #122

    Hi Rantaak,

    Thanks for expressing your views and welcome to the thread.

    I was using the term Enlightenment in the absolute sense, synonymous with Self Realization, Awakening, Nirvana, Bodhi, Turiyatita, Brahman, Kingdom of Heaven, etc.

    Not in the western sense of relative intellectual understanding. A more complete reading of this thread, or the links provided below, may provide further insights, if you are so inclined,

    Kind Regards/Namaste
    tim


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daigo_%28Zen%29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_%28Hinduism%29]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana..._and_True_Self
    There is no such thing as absolute enlightenment in a world where velocity exists. Any sentiment proclaiming otherwise is a trap.
    Hi Rantaak,

    Consider the space inside a clay pot. It is not separate from space in general, it just appears to be confined by the form of the pot.

    In this analogy your true Self is likened to space, the pot is your mind, and the "space" in the pot is your self/ego.

    What is everywhere and eternal cannot be trapped, is not subject to the laws of physics, (which relate to manifest forms of energy, including light), and cannot be separated. It can only appear separate, by the workings of the mind (pot). You cannot "trap" space, you cannot "trap" or harm awareness. Only "forms" can appear to be trapped/controlled.

    This is why Self Realization is absolute freedom. Freedom from fear and freedom from desire. Fear and desire relate to the self/ego, manifest as a separate mind/body, which can be "trapped".

    Enlightenment is realizing you never were in the pot, you never were separate, you never were nor will be bound by forms, physical, or mental, or otherwise. To believe that you are a limited form is the fall from grace, the expulsion from "paradise", ie eating from the tree of knowledge,

    With Love,
    tim
    very very, nicely put Tim, and thanks for share space with us all. John XXX
    :thumb: Paintings that I have created over the last 35 years >Gallery http://projectavalon.net/forum4/album.php?albumid=587< or here at ACC http://www.ashtarcommandcrew.net/gro...-or-collection

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by Tarka the Duck (here)
    Hello Tim

    Gotta ask...so can you walk through walls, know the mind of every sentient being, manipulate matter, produce emanations etc? I have heard that enlightened beings are able to do such things. That would be really nifty!!
    Hi Kathie,

    Came across the following word's from Osho which are relevant to your question;



    in Osho on Zen Masters, Osho Zen Stories

    Osho - The only miracle, the impossible miracle, is to be just ordinary. The longing of the mind is to be extraordinary. The ego thirsts and hungers for the recognition that you are somebody. Somebody achieves that dream through wealth, somebody else achieves that dream through power, politics, somebody else can achieve that dream through miracles, jugglery, but the dream remains the same: I cannot tolerate being nobody.

    And this is a miracle — when you accept your nobodiness, when you are just as ordinary as anybody else, when you don’t ask for any recognition, when you can exist as if you are not existing. To be absent is the miracle.

    This story is beautiful, one of the most beautiful Zen anecdotes, and Bankei is one of the superb masters. But Bankei was an ordinary man. Once it happened that Bankei was working in his garden. Somebody came, a seeker, a man in search of a master, and he asked Bankei, “Gardener, where is the master?”

    Bankei laughed and said, “Wait. Come from that door, inside you will find the master.”
    So the man went round and came inside. He saw Bankei sitting on a throne, the same man who was the gardener outside. The seeker said, “Are you kidding? Get down from this throne. This is sacrilegious, you don’t pay any respect to the master.”

    Bankei got down, sat on the ground, and said, “Now then, it is difficult. Now you will not find the master here because I am the master.”

    It was difficult for that man to see that a great master could work in the garden, could be just ordinary. He left. He couldn’t believe that this man was the master; he missed. We are all in search of the extraordinary. But why are you in search of the extraordinary? It is because you also long to be extraordinary. With an ordinary master, how can you become extraordinary, exceptional?

    Bankei was talking, lecturing, and one man stood and asked about miracles. He belonged to some other sect, a sect which worked through mantras, holy names. Remember that a mantra is a secret technique to achieve more power. A mantra is not spiritual, it is political, but the politics are of the inner space, not of the outer.

    The mind can become powerful if you narrow it down; narrowing is the method. The more narrow the mind, the more powerful it becomes. It is just like the sun’s rays falling to the ground. If you focus those waves, those rays, through a lens, fire can be created. Those rays were falling all spread out but now they have been narrowed down through the lens. They have become one-pointed, concentrated; now fire is possible.

    The mind is energy, in fact, the same energy that comes through the sun, the same subtle rays. Ask the physicists. They say the mind has a voltage of electricity, that it is electrical. If you can focus the mind through a lens, the mantra is a lens, and you go on repeating Ram, Ram, Ram, or Om, Om, Om, or anything, just one word — if you go repeating and repeating and repeating it, and the mind’s whole energy is centered in that one word — it becomes a lens. Now all the rays are passing through that lens. Narrowed to one point it becomes powerful, you can do miracles.

    Just by thinking you can do miracles. But remember, those miracles are not spiritual.Power is never spiritual. Powerlessness, helplessness, to be nothing, is spiritual;.power is never spiritual. This is the difference between magic and religion; magic is after power, religion is after nothingness. A mantra is a part of magic not of religion at all, but everything is a big mess, mixed up. People who are doing miracles are magicians, not spiritual in any way.

    They are even anti-spiritual because they are spreading magic in the name of religion, which is very dangerous. Through a mantra the mind is narrowed; it is more narrowed, more powerful, and then anything can be done. There is only one thing you will miss — you will miss yourself. All miracles will be possible, the ultimate miracle you will miss. You will miss yourself because through narrowing down you can achieve an object.

    The more the mind is narrowed, the more it becomes fixed to an object; it becomes objective. You are hidden behind and the object is outside. So if you are a man of mantras you can say to this tree, “Die,” and the tree will die; you can say to a man, “Be healthy,” and the disease will disappear, or, “Be unhealthy,” and the disease will enter — many things you can do. You can become somebody, and people will recognize you as a man of power but never a man of God.

    A man of God is born when the mind is not narrowed at all, when the mind is not flowing in one direction but is overflowing in all directions. There is no lens, no mantra, just the energy flowing in all dimensions everywhere. That flowing energy, that energy overflowing everywhere, will make you alert about yourself because then there is no object. Only you, only subjectivity exists, and through you, you will become aware of God, not through any power.

    This man asked Bankei, “What type of miracles can you do? My master, through mantra, through the holy name, can do miracles. He will stand on one bank of the river, and disciples will stand on the other bank with a paper in their hands, a half-mile distant, and he will write from here and the words will come on the paper on the other bank. This our master can do. What can you do?”

    And Bankei said, “We know only one miracle here, and that is when I feel hungry I eat, and when I feel sleepy I sleep. Only this much.” Not much of a miracle. Your mind will say, “What type of a miracle is this? It is nothing to be proud of.” But I say to you Bankei has said the real thing.

    That’s what a Buddha can do, that’s what a Mahavira is doing, that’s what a Jesus is to do. Only then is he a Christ, otherwise not. What he is saying is such a simple thing. He says, “When I am hungry I eat.” Is it so difficult that he calls it a miracle? I say it is difficult for you; for the mind it is the most difficult thing — not to interfere.

    When you feel hungry the mind says, “No, this is a religious day and I am on a fast.” When you don’t feel hungry the mind says, “Eat, because this is the time every day that you eat.” And when the stomach is overfilled the mind says, “Go on eating, the food is delicious.” Your mind interferes.

    What is Bankei saying? He is saying, “My mind has stopped interfering. When I feel hungry I eat, when I don’t feel hungry I don’t eat. Eating has become a spontaneous thing; the mind is not a continuous interference. When I feel sleepy I go to sleep.” No, you are not doing this. You go to sleep as a ritual, not when you feel sleepy. You get up as a ritual because it is brahmamuhurta, and you are a Hindu and you must get up before sunrise. Because you are a Hindu, you get up. Who is this Hindu? It is the mind. You cannot be a Hindu, you cannot be a Mohammedan; there is no sect for you but the mind. The mind says, “You are a Hindu, you must get up,” so you get up.

    When the mind says, “Now it is time to go to sleep,” you go to sleep. You follow the mind, not nature. Bankei is saying, “I flow with nature; whatsoever my whole being feels, I do it. There is no fragmentary mind manipulating it, manipulation is the problem. You go on manipulating and this disturbance, interference, this manipulation from the mind is the problem.

    Even in dreams you go on manipulating — ask the psychologists; they say while awake, you continue manipulating. The mind doesn’t allow you to see what is there, it projects; the mind doesn’t allow you to hear what is being said to you, it interprets.

    Even in dreams you are false because the mind goes on playing tricks on you. Freud discovered that our dreams are also false. You want to kill your father so in the dream you don’t kill your father. You want to poison your wife but you don’t poison your wife even in a dream, you poison some woman who somehow resembles your wife. The mind is interfering continuously.I have heard that one man was saying to another, to his friend, “Did I dream last night! What a dream! I went to Coney Island — What delicious ice cream, such a tasteful dinner.I have never eaten such a thing in my whole life.”

    The other man said,”You are kidding.You call that a wonderful dream? Last night I dreamt that on one side was Elizabeth Taylor, on the other side was Marilyn Monroe, both in the nude.
    The other became excited and said, “Then why didn’t you call me?” The man said: “I called you, but your wife said you had already left for Coney Island.”

    Even in dreams the mind goes on creating the world – Coney Islands, Elizabeth Taylors — and you become jealous even about another’s dream:Why didn’t you call me? Bankei is saying: “We know only one miracle. We allow nature to have its own course, we don’t interfere.” Through interference comes the ego: the more you interfere, the more you manipulate, the more you feel you are somebody.

    Look at the ascetics — their egos are so refined and subtle, so shiny. Why? It is because they have interfered the most; you have not interfered so much. They have killed their sex, they have destroyed their love, they have suppressed their anger, they have completely destroyed their hunger and the feeling of the body. They have reason to be egoists: they are somebodies. Look in their eyes, there is nothing except ego.

    Their bodies may be almost dead but their egos are at the supreme-most peak. They have become Everests. These monks and saints will not be able to understand what Bankei means.He says, “We know only one miracle — to allow nature to have its own course. We don’t interfere.” If you don’t interfere, you will disappear. Fighting is the way to be there. People come to me and ask how to drop the ego. I tell them, Who will drop it? If you try to drop it you will be the ego, and someday you will claim that you have dropped the ego. And who is this claimer, who is claiming it? This is the ego, and the most subtle ego always tries to pretend egolessness.

    I also know only one miracle, to let nature have its course, to allow it. Whatsoever is happening, don’t interfere, don’t come in the way, and suddenly you will disappear. You cannot be there without resistance, fight, aggression, violence; the ego exists through resistance. This has to be understood very deeply — the more you fight, the more you will be there.


    Namaste/With Love
    tim
    Last edited by Shadowman; 3rd September 2012 at 03:48.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by tim (here)
    This is an account of the direct experience of awakening.

    What can be said, or written, of itself cannot reveal the truth.

    Words and language are themselves an illusory tool, an aspect of the relative dream, and can only indicate or hint towards the totality, or reality, or that which is.

    Upon the moment of awakening not only does the illusion of the relative self or ego vanish like a shadow exposed to light, but all “other” egos, or relative selves, disappear. All separation disappears, and the absolute Self is realized. All is then enlightened and whole, for there never really were separate entities that could become individually enlightened. There then is no relative doer, nor even an absolute doer, for all doing implies separation. Or something to do, or somewhere to go. And not just other humans, but the entire creation is enlightened and whole.

    Now nothing can be judged, or observed, or transcended, as there is no separate observer, nor separate objects observed, nor even separate observing.

    Here even the concept of pure awareness, the witness, unidentified with that which is observed, has dissolved into the totality. Herein lies the meaning of samsara is nirvana. The slightest separation into observer, observed and observing and samsara appears. When observer, observed and observing is an undifferentiated whole, the Self is self evident, and far more evident, than the illusory ego self.

    All that is, then is, as it really is, here descriptions do not apply.

    Now, what is missing from the above description of the direct experience of enlightenment?

    It is the pronoun, I, for in truth there is no I, either relatively or absolutely. I implies a separation from totality, as the first person singular. Whereas the adjective Self, implies being the same throughout, as the self evident united reality/totality/all that is, and is more appropriate at hinting towards the truth.

    You are in reality this Self, all else is illusion.
    Relatively, this is the end of suffering. This is the beginning of endless bliss.
    Absolutely, all suffering is unreal. Only the blissful Self is real.
    This is the eternal Truth.


    Edit to add on 2/5/12

    Insha’Allah (God willing), a response will be offered to the first comment/question of each poster, in due course.

    Due to time restraints and circumstances, subsequent comments and questions may or may not receive a response, preference will be given to authentic enquiries.

    The more heartfelt the first question/comment, the more earnest the seeker, the greater the likelihood of deriving benefit.

    Your first question/comment should cover that which you consider to be of paramount importance to your own awakening/enlightenment.

    With Love/Namaste
    tim


    PS To clarify the definition of enlightenment, in the context that the term is applied in the title of this thread, an examination of the following links may prove helpful, for those with more than just a casual interest;

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlight...28spiritual%29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_realization
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daigo_%28Zen%29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_%28Hinduism%29]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana..._and_True_Self
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhahood#Ten_Epithets
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tath%C4%81gata
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_%28concept%29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tathata
    I smile-- here we have first hand knowledge and ----saying no more.
    Thanks again Tim

    Chris
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    I smile-- here we have first hand knowledge and ----saying no more.
    Thanks again Tim
    Chris



    You're most welcome Chris. Silence is the greatest teacher, for those who are close to Heaven.



    Eternally/In Lak'ech
    tim

    PS
    If you replace the word ring with mind in the following, you will appreciate the archetypal significance and wide subconscious appeal of the metaphor in Tolkien's Trilogy.

    One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
    One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them



    Of course similiarly both the Matrix and Lucifer may be interpreted as metaphors for the relative mind. So too Dragons and Serpents.

    Which is why Neo is an anagram of One. Absolutely, we are eternally "One", so to speak, while relatively (and temporarily) we appear to have separate forms. It is the relative mind which creates the powerful illusion.

    So, the trick is slaying the dragon without fighting it, yes?
    Last edited by Shadowman; 19th March 2013 at 12:53.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    It is worth remembering that unlimited being has the capacity to enter or experience existence from a limited perspective. While such a limited perspective is not, and can never be real (for what is real can never become unreal), experience from the limited perspective, can and does appear to be real.

    As unlimited being from a limited perspective, it has the capacity to forget its unlimited absolute state.

    However, as unlimited being, it has the capacity to know that it would forget it’s real state from the limited perspective.

    As unlimited being, it has the capacity to again apparently enter the limited perspective, for the purpose of reminding those manifestations of the limited state, in a manner appropriate to their level of limitation (as they are unable to comprehend direct absolute communication from their limited state), that their real state is indeed absolute and unlimited, rather than relative and limited.

    As time is a component of the limited state, the process of transition from limited and relative time bound consciousness, to absolute unlimited eternal being, can be either gradual, for those who have difficulty letting go of illusory identifications, or immediate ie in the twinkling of an eye, for those who are ready.*

    An example of an avatar’s journey symbolizing this transition is Yeshua’s transcendence from the Son of Man (ifestation), symbolizing time based consciousness and material form, metaphorically the horizontal line of the cross; into the Son of God, symbolizing eternal being (Before Abraham was, I am) and the vertical line of the cross, which is the eternal now. At the point where the horizontal intersects the vertical is the “heart” of existence.

    The heart, symbolizing the eternal God of Love, which is also eternal existence/awareness/bliss, unconditionally allows all, including limited perspectives. Sooner or later, but inevitably, love will lead you back to your true state;




    * 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    (It is not the time it takes to blink an eye: for you to see someone's eyes twinkle, light must travel through the front of their eye, be reflected off their retina, and then exit their eye.

    Assuming (for the of ease of calculation) that you are standing close to that person so the transmission time from eyeball-to-eyeball can be regarded as instantaneous, and that a person's eyeball is 2.5 cm in diameter, the light would have to travel a distance of 5cm (or 1/20,000th or 2x10-4 of a kilometer).

    Since the speed of light is 300,000 (or 3x105) km/sec, this means it would take or 1/6 x 10-9 seconds (ie 1/2 x1/3 x 10-4 x 10-5 seconds), or 1/6,000,000,000th of a second to make a person's eyeball twinkle: pretty fast, lol.)


    In Lak'ech / Namaste
    tim

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by tim (here)
    Of course similiarly both the Matrix and Lucifer may be interpreted as metaphors for the relative mind. So too Dragons and Serpents.

    Which is why Neo is an anagram of One. Absolutely, we are eternally "One", so to speak, while relatively (and temporarily) we appear to have separate forms. It is the relative mind which creates the powerful illusion.

    So, the trick is slaying the dragon without fighting it, yes?


    Amazing thread. Can't believe I never saw it before. Great discussions between people whose experience I respect.

    I've never studied Buddhism as a practitioner. Therefore, I don't know a lot of the terms. I've been introduced to terms I never knew reading this thread. Like Turiyatita. I did not know the term, but I do know the space it describes.

    I have been a part of the Shambhala path, as I used to go meditate at the center in Washington DC and have read the book by Chogyam Trungpa in regards to warriorship. Although they're really into the Bodhisattva aspect, they're more of a watered down version of Buddhism from my experience. I primarily practice Shamatha meditation when I engage in formal meditation. Generally, I meditate on the fly. While walking or driving or just sitting, or standing. It happens spontaneously.

    I really resonate now to the understanding that all striving in regards to spiritual development is unnecessary. Life is to be lived. I really liked that long Osho quote about ordinariness as opposed to specialness. No powers necessary. Yes, they can be experienced, but do not hold on to them. The description in that thread about the supreme ego-ness of asceticism was really good.

    I found this thread made me smile to read and hear in my mind the voices of friends and loved ones. Thank you, Tim.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Hello tim, wonderful words of wisdom, thx
    Avalon community wonderful words of wisdom, thx
    So much mind and knowledge brought into the light by a wonderful post, thx tim
    I/self have not even scratched all that has been posted here Yet, Nore have I watched these vid links of yours, will start tomorro!

    PS To clarify the definition of enlightenment, in the context that the term is applied in the title of this thread, an examination of the following links may prove helpful, for those with more than just a casual interest;

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlight...28spiritual%29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_realization
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daigo_%28Zen%29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_%28Hinduism%29]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana..._and_True_Self
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhahood#Ten_Epithets
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tath%C4%81gata
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_%28concept%29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tathata
    [/QUOTE]

    What self would like to add to this post is in relation to some of the postings that mentioned power-Pyramids, how the Pyramid is seen by most. The power pyramid of the Illuminati kind, the all seeing eye is only of power to one and is so weak that the one has to perch on top of all others, all others that would sell there souls to be the perched one. This all seeing eye is a blind eye it only sees those that it would power over.

    lets look at the true power pyramid, the one where my vision of God rests.

    Invert the pyramid and now it is a cone. It sets perfectly on it's point which is it's base.
    At the point/base you are very limited, as you rise and expand you become in-lightened, you find and know of more and more dimensions, you are expanded in knowledge and size of consciousness.

    This pyramid as a Cone is unrestricted at it's top which is it's widest part. This wide part can expand and grow unrestricted and is of all power knowledge.
    Light rises as so do our souls as we become in-lightened, we are lighter. self believes the widest part of the cone of consciousness can be reached where self can float with all seen below. At this point all that is above is the God self reflecting our total light back at us. We are not God and can never be, God is our total reflection and is as sweet as the most unimaginably tasty Ice-cream cone there ever could be.

    so in this pyramid as individuals we rise our self, expand, lighten. the higher we go our horizon broadens and the light intensifies. Sees see more and is boarder to take it in. Self becomes able to move freer, self is let out of the box and becomes one, enlightened-fully.

    This concept of the path of enlightenment and of Gods position in it comes to me/self from your post tim, so your post and others who joined in are to blame Doh

    Only joking, but seriously what do you think of the inverted pyramid, the ALL SEEING POWER CONE of enlightenment?

    (Those of you who know me can probably tell it's late where I am, so i'm rambling again)
    I will try to make a simple drawing of this tomorro when i'm at my maine comp...
    love and In-Lightener-ment to you all with Hugs
    Last edited by Sunny-side-up; 27th May 2013 at 00:17.
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Hi Sunny-side-up,

    Welcome to the thread and thankyou for your kind words and comments.

    Both the all seeing eye pyramid, and your all seeing power cone, can be seen in two ways. Firstly from the point of view of relative knowledge ie as perceived by the individual mind, and secondly, from the point of view of absolute knowledge ie as symbols of the transition from duality to unity, from ego to Self, from the many (e pluribus) to the One (unum).

    For one still identified with the relative mind and individuality, there will appear to be steps or stages or degrees of development , as is often the case with secret societies or religious groups. Such hierarchies are often subject to abuses of power, inherent in relying on an outside authority.

    In your cone metaphor the limited self or point at the base is the ego, while the wide expanse at the top is your being. As the ego “rises” and “expands” (from it’s point of view), it “clears” like a cloud dissipating, leaving the ever present “sky” of being. Or if you prefer, as the ego disappears “all else is added unto you”, like a raindrop melting into the ocean of love.

    By withdrawing the foundations for the ego, using various spiritual techniques, the momentum which causes it to continue to “appear” real, stops. Usually this happens briefly at first, before the thought structures underlying the ego reassert themselves. But with perseverance the true apocalypse, or revealing, manifests itself as full realization of your eternal source identity.

    There are of course misunderstandings and misinterpretations of most symbols and metaphors for spiritual awakening, but this is a consequence of relative knowledge. Each can be understood at multiple levels, even by the same individual at different stages of their development.

    So if you understand the all seeing eye as “thine single eye” of awareness, either within you, or within your “midst” you are on the right track.

    If however it represents any external form, organization or entity, be it earthly, non-corporeal, extra-dimensional or extraterrestrial, acting as a dictatorial authority, demanding obedience, or imposing subservience by means of fear, guilt, secrecy or deception, then avoid it/them as far as possible.

    Those who engage in such actions to control or limit the awakening of others are punished by their “sins”, as they will eventually come to understand.

    Namaste/ In Lak’ech
    tim
    Last edited by Shadowman; 27th May 2013 at 03:22.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    In Lak'ech

    http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur...9QEwAQ&dur=306


    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Namaste
    namaste

    I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
    I honor the place in you where the ENTIRE universe resides,
    I honor the place in you of light, of love, of truth, of peace,
    I honor the place in you where if you and I are in that place then there is only one of us?
    Last edited by Sunny-side-up; 27th May 2013 at 12:00.
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by tim (here)
    This is an account of the direct experience of awakening.

    What can be said, or written, of itself cannot reveal the truth.

    Words and language are themselves an illusory tool, an aspect of the relative dream, and can only indicate or hint towards the totality, or reality, or that which is.

    Upon the moment of awakening not only does the illusion of the relative self or ego vanish like a shadow exposed to light, but all “other” egos, or relative selves, disappear. All separation disappears, and the absolute Self is realized. All is then enlightened and whole, for there never really were separate entities that could become individually enlightened. There then is no relative doer, nor even an absolute doer, for all doing implies separation. Or something to do, or somewhere to go. And not just other humans, but the entire creation is enlightened and whole.

    Now nothing can be judged, or observed, or transcended, as there is no separate observer, nor separate objects observed, nor even separate observing.

    Here even the concept of pure awareness, the witness, unidentified with that which is observed, has dissolved into the totality. Herein lies the meaning of samsara is nirvana. The slightest separation into observer, observed and observing and samsara appears. When observer, observed and observing is an undifferentiated whole, the Self is self evident, and far more evident, than the illusory ego self.

    All that is, then is, as it really is, here descriptions do not apply.

    Now, what is missing from the above description of the direct experience of enlightenment?

    It is the pronoun, I, for in truth there is no I, either relatively or absolutely. I implies a separation from totality, as the first person singular. Whereas the adjective Self, implies being the same throughout, as the self evident united reality/totality/all that is, and is more appropriate at hinting towards the truth.

    You are in reality this Self, all else is illusion.
    Relatively, this is the end of suffering. This is the beginning of endless bliss.
    Absolutely, all suffering is unreal. Only the blissful Self is real.
    This is the eternal Truth.


    Edit to add on 2/5/12

    Insha’Allah (God willing), a response will be offered to the first comment/question of each poster, in due course.

    Due to time restraints and circumstances, subsequent comments and questions may or may not receive a response, preference will be given to authentic enquiries.

    The more heartfelt the first question/comment, the more earnest the seeker, the greater the likelihood of deriving benefit.

    Your first question/comment should cover that which you consider to be of paramount importance to your own awakening/enlightenment.

    With Love/Namaste
    tim


    PS To clarify the definition of enlightenment, in the context that the term is applied in the title of this thread, an examination of the following links may prove helpful, for those with more than just a casual interest;

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlight...28spiritual%29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_realization
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daigo_%28Zen%29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_%28Hinduism%29]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana..._and_True_Self
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhahood#Ten_Epithets
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tath%C4%81gata
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_%28concept%29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tathata

    Felt like bumping this thread
    Chris
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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  37. Link to Post #139
    Avalon Member Shadowman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    John was asking if I'd done any video's and my response is reproduced below for anyone interested;

    Hi John,

    No video's for now. Here is an extract from my course notes for the one seminar held on 11/1/11 at 11:11:11.1. (lol, did 11.1 secs to make up 12 x 1's, another inside joke/symbol, as a rehearsal for another seminar to be held on 11/11/11 at 11:11:11, which did not eventuate). Further talks, and/or video's may happen spontaneously. (In your actions be timely - Lao Tzu)


    Hello and welcome everyone.

    Before we begin I’d like to make a few suggestions on how to gain the most benefit from this teaching; (read suggestions sheet)

    Audio or video recording is not permitted. This is to prevent quotes from the teaching being misunderstood, misapplied or taken out of context and creating further obstacles and/or misunderstandings when passed on to others. Likewise, your personal perception of the teaching is for your own insight and realization, and is best not discussed with others. Interested or curious persons should be referred directly to the teacher.

    Today’s teaching will include the following;

    • A definition of reality. And a clarification of the definition in relative and absolute terms.
    • An exploration of identity. Identification with transitory appearances vs identification with that which is eternal.
    • An insight into the following words; Human, Enlightenment.
    • Four simple, but powerful, free techniques to directly realize (not believe) your real unchanging identity.
    • Two practical demonstrations to help you to differentiate between the real and the unreal, between beliefs and realization.
    • One practical demonstration to show how the illusion of separation is created by identifying with the relative, dualistic mind.
    • The obstacles to awakening and how to transcend them.
    • The Cosmic Open Secret stated plainly and simply.
    • A short question period.

    Now, before we begin I’d like to clear up a few misunderstandings. The nature of direct realization is both subtle and sublime. No words can adequately describe it and any attempt to describe it will be filtered by your relative mind and it’s current beliefs. All human teachers, scriptures, ideas and parables should be treated as fingers pointing to the moon, not the moon itself. Look where the finger is pointing, and don’t get stuck on the finger (or message, or messenger).

    The attachment to, and fighting over, previous “fingers” ie various holy persons, holy books, holy scriptures and holy places has caused untold suffering for humanity, animals and the environment. All as a result of misunderstanding.

    All past realized beings have been misquoted, misunderstood and mistranslated at various times throughout history, even by those with good intentions. Belief systems and religious dogma have resulted as a consequence of this. Others who are still caught up in the illusion have chosen to exploit these systems for personal or political power and/or wealth.

    The responsibility for your own realization is yours alone. No one else can do the work for you. No one can save you but yourself. Those who have realized before you may inspire you and shine a light on the path, but it is you that must travel that path. It is you that must awaken from the dream.

    Now, here’s the really good news. To know the truth of who you are, to realize everlasting life, eternal peace and love, you have everything you need already to begin the journey.

    And here’s some of the things you don’t need;

    • You don’t need to pay any individual, group or organization a single dollar.
    A Truly enlightened teacher does not charge for their services.
    • You don’t need a middleman between you and the truth. Truly enlightened teachers are rare, while blind teachers are plentiful. Distinguishing between the two is part of the journey. Learn from your own mistakes and successes, don’t be a slave to the beliefs of others.
    • You don’t need to rely on anyone else’s interpretation/misinterpretation of spiritual or religious writings.
    • You don’t need to learn any special postures or chants.
    • You don’t need to believe in any dogma or superstition.
    • You don’t need to take any secret oath’s or initiations.
    • You don’t even need to acquire philosophical, spiritual or religious knowledge and/or concepts. The more you think you know - the further you appear to be from the truth of your being.

    All that is required is a willingness to investigate for yourself what is directly in your field of awareness, and learning to distinguish between that which is temporary, and that which is eternal. In the beginning this is best done in a quiet space when you are alone at a set time each day for as long as you are comfortable.


    Much of the material, and a number of relevant links are in my thread, you can always pm me if you have any queries you would like addressed privately,

    With Love / In Lak'ech
    tim

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  39. Link to Post #140
    United States Avalon Member johnf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Tim,
    It is interesting that I did not see you posting your reply to me above yesterday when i was diving into this thread.
    The exchange between you and another member that I know impressed me. And as I often do, I got caught up in trying to pin down where you were coming from and read up to page 5 of this thread last night. Then I took a break, and talked on skype about more everyday stuff to friends.This helped a lot to ground me again.

    What was occuring was trying to figure what to say, or ask without revealing what a mess I am in.
    So this morning I am interested in starting with getting that fear out of the way.

    I read your share on the state of enlightenment, and agree implicitly with everything you said there, that you for that it was like remembering several different experiences I have had, that put me in that state without a body, or personal history, or even memory of the concept of physical.
    It was triggered by what must have been a fairly strong dose of LSD when I was 17.
    I was freaked out, very self conscious, and just wanted my fear to go away, then I felt like some giant being was using a flashlight to find me, and the light went over me and into the back of my head as it zeroed in on me.
    Then the light expanded and everything but It went away.
    Everything I have now of this event is a memory, so I have trouble seeing what I may be reading into it, but it was basically as you describe in the OP, yet there seems to be little tiny waves of personalities, (I imagine this as multiple beings) showing up and before there is thought they fade back.
    The whole thing came to a crashing halt as I thought this was God, and that thought led to a realization that I did have a body, and if this was God I was dying.
    So through whatever means I put back the physical universe, my body, and the room, and was shaking my head.
    Whenever I think about the going out and coming back parts of this, I am struck with the fact that I am either there, or here, no in between, and the universe and the self arise,or disappear as a pair all else is how you and many other put it SELF.
    Years later this happened as a result of doing A Course In Miracles, and I went out and came back with only the help of a freind reading a section of that book to me, and in trying to grasp the message, I lost the universe completely for the second time.
    There are other times when i experienced milder versions of this when I felt I was melting into someone else and becoming this giant being that included us both.
    But I am in my human life a confused, at times violently emotional, and barely employed person . The lack of signs of enlightenment I would say.

    As far as a search for enlightenment or spiritual growth goes I seem to be missing the middle between being a physical being, that can operate, and survive in a physical world, and this overwhelming desire to complete all that and get to the inevitable conclusion that you describe so well in the OP.

    I agree implicitly with you that love happens to everyone, and the conclusion is the only choice.

    Meditation as such in any form ,tai chi, sitting with eyes closed, wind up putting me in a very bad inchoherent state.
    I do much better with just taking a walk. I do something that includes mudras to move energy as I walk, and keep my attention mostly on the horizon.

    This helps a little to make me feel more present, and able to cope with my painful awareness of the crack between the worlds, and what seems to be a huge amount of anger and confusion over having to be here.

    Ramana Marharishi, as far as his existence, and the idea that he is a human reference for the presence of silence in the midst of a human life, makes sense to.
    I like the idea of self inquiry, Vichara, etc.
    Maybe there are directions somewhere that can help me do this without stirring up the chaos that happens when I try to follow his suggestions in the one book of his I have.
    So my Question is, what would you suggest to me as a way of healing this rift, I seem to be experiencing.

    jf
    Last edited by johnf; 22nd June 2013 at 17:40. Reason: missing salutation
    "I am fascinated by religion. (That's a completely different thing from believing in it!)" Douglas Adams

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