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Thread: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    "Upon the moment of awakening not only does the illusion of the relative self or ego vanish like a shadow exposed to light, but all “other” egos, or relative selves, disappear. All separation disappears, and the absolute Self is realized. All is then enlightened and whole, for there never really were separate entities that could become individually enlightened. There then is no relative doer, nor even an absolute doer, for all doing implies separation. Or something to do, or somewhere to go. And not just other humans, but the entire creation is enlightened and whole.

    Now nothing can be judged, or observed, or transcended, as there is no separate observer, nor separate objects observed, nor even separate observing.

    Here even the concept of pure awareness, the witness, unidentified with that which is observed, has dissolved into the totality. Herein lies the meaning of samsara is nirvana. The slightest separation into observer, observed and observing and samsara appears. When observer, observed and observing is an undifferentiated whole, the Self is self evident, and far more evident, than the illusory ego self.

    All that is, then is, as it really is, here descriptions do not apply. "

    This is how Anita Moorjani describes her NDE.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    If one is genuinely interested in spiritual Truth this thread is the place to be.
    The content is second to N"ONE"
    Chris
    A charity to help African Children become self sufficient. :attention:

    http://www.learningtoolsforselfdevelopment.co.uk/

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by johnf (here)
    Tim,
    It is interesting that I did not see you posting your reply to me above yesterday when i was diving into this thread.
    The exchange between you and another member that I know impressed me. And as I often do, I got caught up in trying to pin down where you were coming from and read up to page 5 of this thread last night. Then I took a break, and talked on skype about more everyday stuff to friends.This helped a lot to ground me again.

    What was occuring was trying to figure what to say, or ask without revealing what a mess I am in.
    So this morning I am interested in starting with getting that fear out of the way.

    I read your share on the state of enlightenment, and agree implicitly with everything you said there, that you for that it was like remembering several different experiences I have had, that put me in that state without a body, or personal history, or even memory of the concept of physical.
    It was triggered by what must have been a fairly strong dose of LSD when I was 17.
    I was freaked out, very self conscious, and just wanted my fear to go away, then I felt like some giant being was using a flashlight to find me, and the light went over me and into the back of my head as it zeroed in on me.
    Then the light expanded and everything but It went away.
    Everything I have now of this event is a memory, so I have trouble seeing what I may be reading into it, but it was basically as you describe in the OP, yet there seems to be little tiny waves of personalities, (I imagine this as multiple beings) showing up and before there is thought they fade back.
    The whole thing came to a crashing halt as I thought this was God, and that thought led to a realization that I did have a body, and if this was God I was dying.
    So through whatever means I put back the physical universe, my body, and the room, and was shaking my head.
    Whenever I think about the going out and coming back parts of this, I am struck with the fact that I am either there, or here, no in between, and the universe and the self arise,or disappear as a pair all else is how you and many other put it SELF.
    Years later this happened as a result of doing A Course In Miracles, and I went out and came back with only the help of a freind reading a section of that book to me, and in trying to grasp the message, I lost the universe completely for the second time.
    There are other times when i experienced milder versions of this when I felt I was melting into someone else and becoming this giant being that included us both.
    But I am in my human life a confused, at times violently emotional, and barely employed person . The lack of signs of enlightenment I would say.

    As far as a search for enlightenment or spiritual growth goes I seem to be missing the middle between being a physical being, that can operate, and survive in a physical world, and this overwhelming desire to complete all that and get to the inevitable conclusion that you describe so well in the OP.

    I agree implicitly with you that love happens to everyone, and the conclusion is the only choice.

    Meditation as such in any form ,tai chi, sitting with eyes closed, wind up putting me in a very bad inchoherent state.
    I do much better with just taking a walk. I do something that includes mudras to move energy as I walk, and keep my attention mostly on the horizon.

    This helps a little to make me feel more present, and able to cope with my painful awareness of the crack between the worlds, and what seems to be a huge amount of anger and confusion over having to be here.

    Ramana Marharishi, as far as his existence, and the idea that he is a human reference for the presence of silence in the midst of a human life, makes sense to.
    I like the idea of self inquiry, Vichara, etc.
    Maybe there are directions somewhere that can help me do this without stirring up the chaos that happens when I try to follow his suggestions in the one book of his I have.
    So my Question is, what would you suggest to me as a way of healing this rift, I seem to be experiencing.

    jf
    Hi John,

    The mind can be a useful servant, but can also be a terrible master.

    As you practice any spiritual technique, and just going for a walk while keeping your attention on the horizon is perfectly OK, you gain an increasing sense of detachment and perspective on it’s generally insane and ever changing nature.

    Whenever you focus attention on anything, be it on a mantra, a mudra, your breath, the horizon, or even a concept such as compassion, you are actually learning to both focus the power of the mind in one direction, and as a side effect, to calm it.

    The negative aspects of the mind such as anger and confusion require reasons for perpetuation, and as the mind repeats such patterns of thinking the resonant power is increased. If the mind is focused on say, the horizon, this pattern is interrupted and the cognitive behaviour supporting the anger is lessened...

    From here http://www.angelfire.com/ca/SHALOM/dhammapada.html

    We are what we think.
    All that we are arises with our thoughts.
    With our thoughts we make the world.
    Speak or act with an impure mind
    And trouble will follow you
    As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart.

    We are what we think.
    All that we are arises with our thoughts.
    With our thoughts we make the world.
    Speak or act with a pure mind
    And happiness will follow you
    As your shadow, unshakable.

    "Look how he abused me and hurt me,
    How he threw me down and robbed me."
    Live with such thoughts and you live in hate.
    "Look how he abused me and hurt me,
    How he threw me down and robbed me."

    Abandon such thoughts, and live in love.
    In this world
    Hate never yet dispelled hate.
    Only love dispels hate.
    This is the law,
    Ancient and inexhaustible.



    It is said that spiritual practice is good in the beginning, good in the middle and good in the end.

    In the beginning, a greater detachment developed from focusing and silently watching the mind, leads to a deeper understanding of those patterns which are unhelpful and which lead to suffering. When this understanding becomes deep enough, the old patterns simply drop of themselves. If you have to force it, (ie the forced Brahmacharya of the Catholic priests) then it simply has not been fully realized as unhelpful behaviour, and instead becomes repression, often leading to deviant behaviour.

    In the middle, the continuing and deeper understanding that all patterns of thinking, including the I thought, are based on identification with forms, ie body/beliefs/emotions/possessions/etc lead to a clearer separation between awareness and mind based consciousness. This also leads to an increasing sense of security, for while your body can be harmed and your possessions stolen, nothing can threaten your “inner sky”.

    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post479710

    “Don’t you know I can take out my sword and chop off your head without so much as blinking an eye?” said Genghis Khan.

    “And don’t you know that I can sit here while you take out your sword and chop off my head without so much as bliking an eye!” said the Monk



    The rift that you speak of has it’s basis in mind based consciousness, not in awareness. As your identity shifts further towards awareness the consequences are twofold. You will experience a greater degree of peace and joy, for no apparent reason, and your body/mind will operate with an increased sense of harmony. The mind then is focused more in the here and now, which is it’s proper function, as opposed to dreaming up fear based scenarios or reasons to become angry/confused/sad/bored/etc .

    In the end, the shift from the unreal and temporal/corporeal based identification with mind/body based consciousness to the real and eternal awareness that is your Self occurs, whereupon it is realized that actually you never were “here” in the relative sense.

    When Ramana was dying and his devotees were asking him to use his divine power to stay his response was “Where could I go?”

    The best advice John is to proceed at your own pace. Practice your focused attention as much as you can. And remember, try not to judge any thoughts that arise during your practice. An easy to remember protocol is 1. Relax, 2. Watch, 3. Don’t judge.

    In the beginning this can be difficult as whatever has been repressed is going to come up, this is the chaos you refer to. Just watch it all come and go as Siddhartha did under the Bodhi tree, and don’t act on it. The sense of dying you refer to is the ego dying, sometimes called the dark night of the soul, hence the metaphorical significance of the crucifixion prior to total surrender - “Thy will be done”.

    Once you have “trained the dragon” to focus on one thing at a time (ie Dhyana) you can then turn it inwards and focus on it’s Source. This is Zazen or Vichara.

    Your life circumstances and past actions are irrelevant to your worthiness for enlightenment. It was only as an unemployed single parent for many years that I was afforded the time to practice the techniques which suited my temperament. Be kind to yourself and others, self judgement rarely leads to genuine transformation. Know this John, you are deeply loved, just as you are, live in love and the confusion and anger will flee from you my friend,

    http://www.salizah.com/laotzuandonebigtree.html

    http://www.goodreads.com/author/quot...Gautama_Buddha

    Namaste / With Love
    tim

    PS pm me if you would like any of Ramana's books in pdf, I have lots
    Last edited by tim; 27th June 2013 at 12:09.

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    United States Avalon Member johnf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by tim (here)
    Quote Posted by johnf (here)
    Tim,
    It is interesting that I did not see you posting your reply to me above yesterday when i was diving into this thread.
    The exchange between you and another member that I know impressed me. And as I often do, I got caught up in trying to pin down where you were coming from and read up to page 5 of this thread last night. Then I took a break, and talked on skype about more everyday stuff to friends.This helped a lot to ground me again.

    What was occuring was trying to figure what to say, or ask without revealing what a mess I am in.
    So this morning I am interested in starting with getting that fear out of the way.

    I read your share on the state of enlightenment, and agree implicitly with everything you said there, that you for that it was like remembering several different experiences I have had, that put me in that state without a body, or personal history, or even memory of the concept of physical.
    It was triggered by what must have been a fairly strong dose of LSD when I was 17.
    I was freaked out, very self conscious, and just wanted my fear to go away, then I felt like some giant being was using a flashlight to find me, and the light went over me and into the back of my head as it zeroed in on me.
    Then the light expanded and everything but It went away.
    Everything I have now of this event is a memory, so I have trouble seeing what I may be reading into it, but it was basically as you describe in the OP, yet there seems to be little tiny waves of personalities, (I imagine this as multiple beings) showing up and before there is thought they fade back.
    The whole thing came to a crashing halt as I thought this was God, and that thought led to a realization that I did have a body, and if this was God I was dying.
    So through whatever means I put back the physical universe, my body, and the room, and was shaking my head.
    Whenever I think about the going out and coming back parts of this, I am struck with the fact that I am either there, or here, no in between, and the universe and the self arise,or disappear as a pair all else is how you and many other put it SELF.
    Years later this happened as a result of doing A Course In Miracles, and I went out and came back with only the help of a freind reading a section of that book to me, and in trying to grasp the message, I lost the universe completely for the second time.
    There are other times when i experienced milder versions of this when I felt I was melting into someone else and becoming this giant being that included us both.
    But I am in my human life a confused, at times violently emotional, and barely employed person . The lack of signs of enlightenment I would say.

    As far as a search for enlightenment or spiritual growth goes I seem to be missing the middle between being a physical being, that can operate, and survive in a physical world, and this overwhelming desire to complete all that and get to the inevitable conclusion that you describe so well in the OP.

    I agree implicitly with you that love happens to everyone, and the conclusion is the only choice.

    Meditation as such in any form ,tai chi, sitting with eyes closed, wind up putting me in a very bad inchoherent state.
    I do much better with just taking a walk. I do something that includes mudras to move energy as I walk, and keep my attention mostly on the horizon.

    This helps a little to make me feel more present, and able to cope with my painful awareness of the crack between the worlds, and what seems to be a huge amount of anger and confusion over having to be here.

    Ramana Marharishi, as far as his existence, and the idea that he is a human reference for the presence of silence in the midst of a human life, makes sense to.
    I like the idea of self inquiry, Vichara, etc.
    Maybe there are directions somewhere that can help me do this without stirring up the chaos that happens when I try to follow his suggestions in the one book of his I have.
    So my Question is, what would you suggest to me as a way of healing this rift, I seem to be experiencing.

    jf
    Hi John,

    The mind can be a useful servant, but can also be a terrible master.

    As you practice any spiritual technique, and just going for a walk while keeping your attention on the horizon is perfectly OK, you gain an increasing sense of detachment and perspective on it’s generally insane and ever changing nature.

    Whenever you focus attention on anything, be it on a mantra, a mudra, your breath, the horizon, or even a concept such as compassion, you are actually learning to both focus the power of the mind in one direction, and as a side effect, to calm it.

    The negative aspects of the mind such as anger and confusion require reasons for perpetuation, and as the mind repeats such patterns of thinking the resonant power is increased. If the mind is focused on say, the horizon, this pattern is interrupted and the cognitive behaviour supporting the anger is lessened...

    From here http://www.angelfire.com/ca/SHALOM/dhammapada.html

    We are what we think.
    All that we are arises with our thoughts.
    With our thoughts we make the world.
    Speak or act with an impure mind
    And trouble will follow you
    As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart.

    We are what we think.
    All that we are arises with our thoughts.
    With our thoughts we make the world.
    Speak or act with a pure mind
    And happiness will follow you
    As your shadow, unshakable.

    "Look how he abused me and hurt me,
    How he threw me down and robbed me."
    Live with such thoughts and you live in hate.
    "Look how he abused me and hurt me,
    How he threw me down and robbed me."

    Abandon such thoughts, and live in love.
    In this world
    Hate never yet dispelled hate.
    Only love dispels hate.
    This is the law,
    Ancient and inexhaustible.



    It is said that spiritual practice is good in the beginning, good in the middle and good in the end.

    In the beginning, a greater detachment developed from focusing and silently watching the mind, leads to a deeper understanding of those patterns which are unhelpful and which lead to suffering. When this understanding becomes deep enough, the old patterns simply drop of themselves. If you have to force it, (ie the forced Brahmacharya of the Catholic priests) then it simply has not been fully realized as unhelpful behaviour, and instead becomes repression, often leading to deviant behaviour.

    In the middle, the continuing and deeper understanding that all patterns of thinking, including the I thought, are based on identification with forms, ie body/beliefs/emotions/possessions/etc lead to a clearer separation between awareness and mind based consciousness. This also leads to an increasing sense of security, for while your body can be harmed and your possessions stolen, nothing can threaten your “inner sky”.

    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post479710

    The rift that you speak of has it’s basis in mind based consciousness, not in awareness. As your identity shifts further towards awareness the consequences are twofold. You will experience a greater degree of peace and joy, for no apparent reason, and your body/mind will operate with an increased sense of harmony. The mind then is focused more in the here and now, which is it’s proper function, as opposed to dreaming up fear based scenarios or reasons to become angry/confused/sad/bored/etc .

    In the end, the shift from the unreal and temporal/corporeal based identification with mind/body based consciousness to the real and eternal awareness that is your Self occurs, whereupon it is realized that actually you never were “here” in the relative sense.

    “Don’t you know I can take out my sword and chop off your head without so much as blinking an eye?” said Genghis Khan.

    “And don’t you know that I can sit here while you take out your sword and chop off my head without so much as bliking an eye!” said the Monk


    When Ramana was dying and his devotees were asking him to use his divine power to stay his response was “Where could I go?”

    The best advice John is to proceed at your own pace. Practice your focused attention as much as you can. And remember, try not to judge any thoughts that arise during your practice. An easy to remember protocol is 1. Relax, 2. Watch, 3. Don’t judge.

    In the beginning this can be difficult as whatever has been repressed is going to come up, this is the chaos you refer to. Just watch it all come and go as Siddhartha did under the Bodhi tree, and don’t act on it. The sense of dying you refer to is the ego dying, sometimes called the dark night of the soul, hence the metaphorical significance of the crucifixion prior to total surrender - “Thy will be done”.

    Once you have “trained the dragon” to focus on one thing at a time you can then turn it inwards and focus on it’s Source. This is Dhyana, or Zazen or Vichara.

    Your life circumstances and past actions are irrelevant to your worthiness for enlightenment. It was only as an unemployed single parent for many years that I was afforded the time to practice the techniques which suited my temperament. Be kind to yourself and others, self judgement rarely leads to genuine transformation. Know this John, you are deeply loved, just as you are, live in love and the confusion and anger will flee from you my friend,

    http://www.salizah.com/laotzuandonebigtree.html

    http://www.goodreads.com/author/quot...Gautama_Buddha

    Namaste / With Love
    tim

    PS pm me if you would like any of Ramana's books in pdf, I have lots
    Thank you Tim, Several antidotes for my unwanted thoughts about myself there.
    and there are reasons to value what I have, in there, and trust it will take me somewhere
    I need to go.
    I will keep your offer of the pdf's In mind.
    I share in the other thread how the example of Ramna has repeatedly shown up in mmy life, and the message was he preferred to teach in silence.
    In my younger days I liked the Casteneda books, especially the power of silence, and your avatar is apparently from a modern cover of that book?

    In Gratitude,

    jf
    "I am fascinated by religion. (That's a completely different thing from believing in it!)" Douglas Adams

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  9. Link to Post #145
    Netherlands Avalon Member Eram's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by johnf (here)
    ...]

    But I am in my human life a confused, at times violently emotional, and barely employed person . The lack of signs of enlightenment I would say.

    As far as a search for enlightenment or spiritual growth goes I seem to be missing the middle between being a physical being, that can operate, and survive in a physical world, and this overwhelming desire to complete all that and get to the inevitable conclusion that you describe so well in the OP.

    I agree implicitly with you that love happens to everyone, and the conclusion is the only choice.

    [...]

    what would you suggest to me as a way of healing this rift, I seem to be experiencing.
    Hi John,

    I hope that it is OK that I jump in with my take on what's hindering you to " get there"

    First of all, I am too a seeker for truth/enlightenment and in my observation, I suffer somewhat the same rift that you are referring to, namely: confusion and violently emotional outbursts combined with episodes of experiencing the divine.
    I am self employed, but I'm quite sure that I wouldn't be able to hold a paid job for long .

    Recently, after writing about a lucid dream in the OBE thread from TraineeHuman, he suggested to me that I am afraid of my dark side.
    I investigated this idea for some time and had to fully admit it, further more, it gave me some new insights about the whole idea of the dark side/shadow side in relation to finding enlightenment.

    In my understanding, the dark side is everything that we have suppressed in ourself and therefore lives in the unconscious part of our minds.
    Basically, we are being taught to be "good" and not "bad", which creates the dualistic thinking program in our mind.
    It creates the dark/suppressed side in our consciousness.

    In my observations, a large part of the people that seek enlightenment (and I was one of them), step in the trap of making the undertaking to get to that stage an exercise in reaching for it in a direct way ie meditating, self inquiry (too little of that often) and turning the understandings of enlightenment into a program to live by (which doesn't get you anywhere, because it creates an image of the enlightened state and only adds to the ego).

    After reading Katie Byron's book "Loving What Is: Four Questions That Can Change Your Life" and working with it a bit, I am now coming to the insight that this is the element that so many people seem to miss when the head out for finding enlightenment.
    We have to clean up the dirt in our dark side.
    I wrote about it here (do read it)

    Basically, finding enlightenment has two requirements:
    Getting the mind into a neutral/unbiased state and become detached from identifications. (correct me if I'm wrong here Tim or anyone else)

    If we don't clean up the dark side ie releasing the emotional attachments and dualistic thinking, we continue to drag this behind us as anchors that keep us in the low vibrations.

    When I read your post, it made me think of my situation and especially the violently emotional outbursts made me think of a suppressed dark side.
    When we suppress our dark side and at the same time reach for enlightenment... we will experience what you describe so clearly.


    There are many ways in my opinion to release the emotional attachments/thought forms, but the work from Katie Byron strikes me as the most direct and effective way that I ever came across.
    It gives real releasing of old attachments/emotions and makes me extremely aware of the judgemental thoughts that my minds cling to.

    I'm not sure, but as far as I can see it, this is turning out to be the big step forward that I failed to make in the past year and I also think that many many other seekers are in the same pitfall that I was in.

    Sorry that my post is so long and not as coherent as I wanted it to be.

    Most important thing I wanted to say is:
    violently emotional combined with experiences of the divine, shouts "repressed dark side" to me.
    If this is true, then you might want to read some about it and find a way to resolve it.
    Last edited by Eram; 23rd June 2013 at 10:52.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by johnf (here)

    Thank you Tim, Several antidotes for my unwanted thoughts about myself there.
    Sorry, I don't know if this is too far out of context or not, but I got hung up there. Why do unwanted thoughts need an antidote?
    I have them all the time. I love um. They're no less unreal than the thoughts I approve of.
    All you discover in the darkness is that it was a big deal about nothing.
    I wouldn't try to rebury it before you find that out for yourself.
    Last edited by markpierre; 24th June 2013 at 08:11.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    johnf,
    If I may add my thought on the subject directly related to your post:

    From my own experience I can say that true balance comes with peace...of mind. I would suggest to anyone who is still trying- to stop. Stop searching, stop trying. It is inside of you, but your ultimate effort suppresses it to come to life.

    Enlightenment is just a word. In this process you are the teacher and the student, and whatever you achieve is simply given to you, but you need to allow it to come to you without the expectation of this having some defined name, face, guru, teaching, etc.

    Realizing the existence of a higher "thing"-self, power, intervention, etc, and believing in its power to guide you is the simplest way of achieving true realization.

    We tend to accumulate a lot of expectation that the truth has the face of that person, or the other religion; or that happiness comes ONLY if I get to be with "put the name of your ultimate loved one here", and so on.

    Buddhist say practice detachment for a reason.
    Last edited by chocolate; 23rd June 2013 at 11:07.

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    United States Avalon Member johnf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by markpierre (here)
    Quote Posted by johnf (here)

    Thank you Tim, Several antidotes for my unwanted thoughts about myself there.
    Sorry, I don't know if this is too far out of context or not, but I got hung up there. Why do unwanted thoughts need an antidote?
    I have them all the time. I love um. They're no less unreal than the thoughts I approve of.
    All you discover in the darkness is that it was a big deal about nothing.
    I wouldn't try to rebury it before you find that out for yourself.
    Well I couldn't come up with words that really got to what I was trying to say. I don't want to remove this stuff, so much as seeing through it. As you put it discovering in the darkness. that it is a big deal about nothing is the sort of thing I am seeking more of.
    Eram, Thank you for your clear addressing of the shadow work thing, I have had a hard time getting into Byron Katies work, without hearing judge your thoughts and suppress them.
    I would like to explore it in a way that shows me how it actually works, but haven't been able to follow it at all.
    I found Scott Kiloby's methods extremely effective, but I balk at the expensiveness of the process.
    It is about seeing both the shadow, and the positives as illusions, looking directly at things shows they are something completely different.
    I would love to hear what Tim thought of your post.

    Chocolate, you seem to think I believe a lot of things I don't. My main thrust in my post was to be honest about what seems to be in my way.
    Basically I agree with a lot of what you are saying, I am "seeking" for the seeker to fall away, if you follow me,lol.

    jf

    "I am fascinated by religion. (That's a completely different thing from believing in it!)" Douglas Adams

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    I follow you , and speak as a seeker myself.

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    Avalon Member tim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by johnf (here)
    Quote Posted by markpierre (here)
    Quote Posted by johnf (here)

    Thank you Tim, Several antidotes for my unwanted thoughts about myself there.
    Sorry, I don't know if this is too far out of context or not, but I got hung up there. Why do unwanted thoughts need an antidote?
    I have them all the time. I love um. They're no less unreal than the thoughts I approve of.
    All you discover in the darkness is that it was a big deal about nothing.
    I wouldn't try to rebury it before you find that out for yourself.
    Well I couldn't come up with words that really got to what I was trying to say. I don't want to remove this stuff, so much as seeing through it. As you put it discovering in the darkness. that it is a big deal about nothing is the sort of thing I am seeking more of.
    Eram, Thank you for your clear addressing of the shadow work thing, I have had a hard time getting into Byron Katies work, without hearing judge your thoughts and suppress them.
    I would like to explore it in a way that shows me how it actually works, but haven't been able to follow it at all.
    I found Scott Kiloby's methods extremely effective, but I balk at the expensiveness of the process.
    It is about seeing both the shadow, and the positives as illusions, looking directly at things shows they are something completely different.
    I would love to hear what Tim thought of your post.

    jf

    [/I]
    Markpierre can be a bit cryptic (and cheeky ) at times, which lends itself to wide interpretation.

    Feel free to correct me if you like Markpierre, but what he seems to be getting at is as follows;

    There are thoughts, there is the the thinker of the thoughts and then there is the awareness in which both the thoughts and thinker appear. It is the thinker (which is the ego) which judges some thoughts as harmful and seeks to be rid of them. The ego desires the positive aspects of duality and fears the negative aspects of duality, this includes thoughts as well as physical and emotional phenomena. It is in judging, clinging and rejecting that the ego perpetuates itself. And it's identity can be that of a saint (identifying with and acting upon only good thoughts), or that of a sinner (identifying with and acting upon bad thoughts), or anything in between. Both iron and gold chains can bind one to duality.

    However, to awareness, which Markpierre symbolizes as the darkness (ie absence of all relative phenomena), all thoughts are equally unreal and equally powerless over your true Self, hence require no antidote. It is like running from a monster in a nightmare, the moment you realize you are just dreaming you can turn and face the monster, which was just a projection of your own mind. In just facing them, in just allowing all thoughts to come and go in your practice, without judgement, you shift from the thinker which is vulnerable and therefore fearful, to the awareness which is eternal love.

    “Out beyond ideas of right doing and wrong doing there is a field. I'll meet you there.” - Rumi

    In daily life when negative thoughts arise, and we act on them, we can end up causing suffering for ourselves and others. In our sadhana (or practice), we create a safe space to allow all thoughts to arise, free of repression. We also learn and observe the connection between thoughts and emotions, as well as other states of mind, which often occur too quickly in life to see the connections. But most of all, in just silently watching them, we learn that we are not our thoughts; and in doing so, we find that we are not a slave to them, nor are we threatened by them...

    Nothing real can be threatened, nothing unreal exists, right John?

    In Lak'ech / With Love
    tim

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    I've been beheaded, drawn and quartered, hung upside down and sawn down the middle, impaled, and had
    the Twinkies withheld from my lunchbox for being too direct. Pardon me if I play with words a little.
    But cryptic? You overestimate my intelligence.
    Maybe each interpretation needs to be a little different.

    I wake up with that monster every morning. It's me.
    Last edited by markpierre; 24th June 2013 at 07:47.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Maybe this will be perceived to be too simplistic, but learning to be free of concepts of good and evil is fundamental to my understanding/experience of enlightenment/freedom.

    Self-soveriegnty in unbridled choice making.. particularly when outcomes have been derived from action on principles that are core to what is most meaningful inwardly and not externally.

    If I'm divergent here from something more esoteric
    forgive me
    Last edited by Hazel; 24th June 2013 at 08:21.

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by recap1 (here)
    Maybe this will be perceived to be too simplistic, but learning to be free of concepts of good and evil is my understanding/experience of enlightenment/freedom
    Simplistic is a relief.

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    Avalon Member tim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by markpierre (here)
    I've been beheaded, drawn and quartered, hung upside down and sawn down the middle, impaled, and had
    the Twinkies withheld from my lunchbox for being too direct. Pardon me if I play with words a little.
    But cryptic? You overestimate my intelligence.
    Maybe each interpretation needs to be a little different.

    I wake up with that monster every morning. It's me.

    No pardon necessary. Your input, wordplay and interpretation are welcome and appreciated,

    Namaste / With Respect
    tim

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    After a couple of days doing my practice with increased interest, i feel a little more focus, body more relaxed.
    I am experiencing some sort of energy coming up that is very familiar to me.
    Sometimes it appears as a man, sometimes as a big dark blue sphere.
    And there is a certain compulsion to try to figure it out, identify it.
    So I am doing my best to just continue as I am and let it do what it may, is there anything else you might suggest Tim.

    jf
    "I am fascinated by religion. (That's a completely different thing from believing in it!)" Douglas Adams

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    What I describe in my last post is not happening today.
    However I am struggling a bit again with my tendency to dwell on old upsets.
    Possible correlation there.

    jf
    "I am fascinated by religion. (That's a completely different thing from believing in it!)" Douglas Adams

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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by johnf (here)
    After a couple of days doing my practice with increased interest, i feel a little more focus, body more relaxed.
    I am experiencing some sort of energy coming up that is very familiar to me.
    Sometimes it appears as a man, sometimes as a big dark blue sphere.
    And there is a certain compulsion to try to figure it out, identify it.
    So I am doing my best to just continue as I am and let it do what it may, is there anything else you might suggest Tim.

    jf
    Quote Posted by johnf (here)
    What I describe in my last post is not happening today.
    However I am struggling a bit again with my tendency to dwell on old upsets.
    Possible correlation there.

    jf
    Hi John,

    Just to clarify, does your practice still entail walking while focusing on the horizon?

    As mentioned above, generally the idea initially is just to focus the mind on one thing. Whenever phenomena arise, either externally or internally, just gently bring the mind back to your chosen object. You may find it less distracting to do your practice in a seated position in your room. Just sit in a comfortable position with your back straight if possible. A relatively simple focus point is the air entering and leaving your nostrils.

    By all means continue walking if you prefer. Whichever, just notice when you have become distracted (usually by identifying with thoughts, or as you put it, dwelling on old upsets) and return your attention to your focus. The calming effect that arises with such practice will eventually carry forward into the rest of your day. If you do it at the same time each day, you also may notice the energy coming on at practice time.

    Should you start to experience unusual or heightened states of energy/awareness, it may be helpful to have a read of the following, so you can keep things in perspective and maintain a balance ie in sleeping, eating and exercise patterns. There is still little understanding in the West amongst the medical and psychological professions of mystical states, which can be mis-diagnosed. You can always pm me if you run into any problems that you would prefer to address privately;

    http://www.kundaliniawakeningsystems...nscendence.pdf

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...shores&f=false

    http://www.amazon.com/Farther-Shores.../dp/0595533965

    Namaste
    tim

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    United States Avalon Member johnf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by tim (here)
    Quote Posted by johnf (here)
    After a couple of days doing my practice with increased interest, i feel a little more focus, body more relaxed.
    I am experiencing some sort of energy coming up that is very familiar to me.
    Sometimes it appears as a man, sometimes as a big dark blue sphere.
    And there is a certain compulsion to try to figure it out, identify it.
    So I am doing my best to just continue as I am and let it do what it may, is there anything else you might suggest Tim.

    jf
    Quote Posted by johnf (here)
    What I describe in my last post is not happening today.
    However I am struggling a bit again with my tendency to dwell on old upsets.
    Possible correlation there.

    jf
    Hi John,

    Just to clarify, does your practice still entail walking while focusing on the horizon?

    As mentioned above, generally the idea initially is just to focus the mind on one thing. Whenever phenomena arise, either externally or internally, just gently bring the mind back to your chosen object. You may find it less distracting to do your practice in a seated position in your room. Just sit in a comfortable position with your back straight if possible. A relatively simple focus point is the air entering and leaving your nostrils.

    By all means continue walking if you prefer. Whichever, just notice when you have become distracted (usually by identifying with thoughts, or as you put it, dwelling on old upsets) and return your attention to your focus. The calming effect that arises with such practice will eventually carry forward into the rest of your day. If you do it at the same time each day, you also may notice the energy coming on at practice time.

    Should you start to experience unusual or heightened states of energy/awareness, it may be helpful to have a read of the following, so you can keep things in perspective and maintain a balance ie in sleeping, eating and exercise patterns. There is still little understanding in the West amongst the medical and psychological professions of mystical states, which can be mis-diagnosed. You can always pm me if you run into any problems that you would prefer to address privately;

    http://www.kundaliniawakeningsystems...nscendence.pdf

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...shores&f=false

    http://www.amazon.com/Farther-Shores.../dp/0595533965

    Namaste
    tim
    Thanks Tim,
    On the sitting practice are there any directions for what to do with my eyes?
    I actually don't feel safe doing such a quiet practice yet.
    I do have powerful distractions come up, and they seem to be milder with a more physical practice.
    Definitely works better the more I focus on the horizon.
    I have looked at the kundalini phenomenon from time to time, and not sure if my stuff qualifies, I will check those links out though

    jf
    "I am fascinated by religion. (That's a completely different thing from believing in it!)" Douglas Adams

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  36. Link to Post #159
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Quote Posted by johnf (here)

    Thanks Tim,
    On the sitting practice are there any directions for what to do with my eyes?
    I actually don't feel safe doing such a quiet practice yet.
    I do have powerful distractions come up, and they seem to be milder with a more physical practice.
    Definitely works better the more I focus on the horizon.
    I have looked at the kundalini phenomenon from time to time, and not sure if my stuff qualifies, I will check those links out though

    jf
    No specific instructions for the eyes, whatever you're comfortable with. If open eyed just face a wall so there are no distractions.

    It's good to see you following your own intuition and doing what feels best for you. Stay with the physical practice until you develop greater detachment from the powerful distractions. It may be helpful to see if there are any meditation groups or teachers locally, just so you have like minded people to bounce ideas off if the need arises. Depending on your temperament some find it easier to practice in groups while others prefer solitude.

    Chris (Greybeard) has a lot of experience with Kundalini, you could pm him or post in his main thread if you have any specific questions. Check the links and see what you think. The Farther Shores book is very good if you enjoyed the preview. The difficulty is not so much the energetic experiences, but the mind's reaction to them, especially if one doesn't understand what may be happening. Many do not have them at all, but it is helpful to have some background beforehand,

    Namaste
    tim
    Last edited by tim; 28th June 2013 at 07:03.

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    Netherlands Avalon Member Eram's Avatar
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    Default Re: Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

    Hi Tim,

    For the last month or so (maybe a little longer), I started to do "the work" that Katie Byron came up with.
    4 questions that one can use to explore and dissolve every resistance that we have toward reality (that what happens).
    I have noticed that the more I do it, the easier it becomes (of course ) and where I first had to sit down and really write it all down, first the resistance toward reality, then applying the four questions.... now, I can do it while doing the dishes or whatever that doesn't require all too much of me.
    I also noticed that in effect it is a sort of tool to surrender ones self to reality.
    It is like the "four stages of grief":
    • Denial
    • Anger
    • Depression/Grief
    • Acceptance
    If I seek out a section of resistance in me (not agreeing with the clothes my neighbor is waring to name a silly resistance as an example) and I apply the work real quick, this (the 5 stages) is what I experience.

    So, this is what I do most of the time, together with self inquiry.

    The thing is.... I am beginning to suspect that this actually can lead to somewhere.

    Could this be true?

    Could it be that all it requires is 2 simple techniques like these?

    I am asking this also because I saw a youtube the other day where Adyashanti was telling about that most paths that people try to reach enlightenment actually lead away from it.
    Last edited by Eram; 11th July 2013 at 22:12.
    hylozoic tenet: “Consciousness sleeps in the stone, dreams in the plant, awakens in the animal, and becomes self-conscious in man.”

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