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Thread: Good morning to the beginning of the end of the Euro

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    Default Good morning to the beginning of the end of the Euro

    Can't say we all didn't see this coming, but here it is.

    Economic wind down has officially begun in Europe. Expect events to unravel rather quickly.

    Here's the Guardian report, but you can go anywhere (MSN) to watch the show.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...urrency-greece


    European leaders and financial markets braced for Greece exit from euro
    Return to drachma nears amid political impasse in Athens and open discussion in Brussels of possible end of single currency
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    Larry Elliott and Ian Traynor in Brussels
    The Guardian, Tuesday 15 May 2012

    The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, said that Greece would 'always' be in the EU, a statement interpreted as meaning it might not always be in the euro. Photograph: John Macdougall/AFP/Getty Images
    Financial markets are hastily making preparations for a Greek exit from the euro after a day of political and economic turmoil ended with Europe's policy elite admitting for the first time that it may prove impossible to keep the single currency intact.

    With attempts in Athens to form a government after last week's election looking increasingly doomed, European leaders abandoned their taboo on talking about the possibility that Greece might have to leave the euro.

    Shares, oil, and the euro were all sold heavily on Monday in anticipation that anti-austerity parties would garner support in a second Greek election likely to be held next month, bringing the row between Greece and its European creditors to a climax.

    Critical talks are scheduled to continue in Athens between all party leaders, although President Karolos Papoulias's decision to prolong the negotiations came despite widespread signs the talks were heading towards collapse. He has until Thursday, when the Greek parliament reconvenes, to broker a deal.

    The British chancellor, George Osborne warned that the prospect of Greece crashing out of the euro was damaging economies across Europe.

    Uncertainty over the future of struggling eurozone nations was having a "real impact" on growth, he said.

    Speaking in Brussels, where he is attending talks over the crisis, Osborne criticised the "open speculation" by some eurozone members.

    "The eurozone crisis is very serious and it's having a real impact on economic growth across the European continent, including in Britain, and it's the uncertainty that's causing the damage," he said.

    "Of course countries have got to make difficult decisions about their public finances. We know that in Britain.

    "But it's the open speculation from some members of the eurozone about the future of some countries in the eurozone which I think is doing real damage across the whole European economy."

    Amid claims in the markets that politicians in Athens were playing a dangerous game of bluff, a potential schism in the monetary union saw borrowing costs for Spain and Italy rise over fears that contagion could spread from Greece through southern Europe. The City's FTSE 100 Index lost almost 2% of its value, dropping more than 100 points, and there were big falls in share prices in Paris, Frankfurt, Madrid and Athens.

    Chris Towner, director of FX advisory services at currency traders HiFX, said: "The Greeks seem to be playing a game of chicken here, first of all putting party politics above sovereign interests and secondly in the bigger picture questioning whether the European Central Bank are bluffing when it comes to not offering them bailout money if they fail to form a government."

    On Monday night city firms were making sure their computer-trading systems could cope with the return of the drachma, and were predicting that a "grey market" in a new Greek currency could be operating within the next few days.

    But despite the market turmoil and the anti-austerity mood reflected in the elections in Greece and France, finance ministers meeting in Brussels insisted there could be no softening of the tough conditions that Athens agreed to last year in return for a $130bn rescue package financed by the EU and the IMF. The talks openly discussed the likelihood of Greece quitting or being kicked out of the euro, while also differing over whether Greece would also need to leave the EU.

    Maria Fekter, the gaffe-prone Austrian finance minister, said there was no basis in EU law for a country leaving the single currency, but noted that the Lisbon Treaty included provision for a country departing from the EU.

    Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany, by contrast, stressed that Greece would "always" be in the EU, a statement interpreted as meaning it might not always be in the euro.

    Following suggestions from Jean-Claude Juncker, the Luxembourg prime minister and eurogroup chairman, that Greece's debt reduction timetable should be relaxed, the Germans made clear that no such loosening could be permitted.

    With central bankers across the eurozone openly discussing the pros and cons of a Greek departure, it appeared that the terms of the debate had shifted towards accepting the inevitability of a Greek exit. Talk of the impact of a return to the drachma was predominant, split between those who believed the fallout from an outright Greek default could be contained and those who thought that the knock-on effect, particularly in Spain, would shift the euro crisis into an entirely new dimension.

    "The contagion risk would be far, far smaller than one and a half years ago," said the Dutch finance minister, Jan Kees de Jager, of the effect of a Greek exit. Others predicted the result would be "catastrophe".

    The debate focused on the financial and banking impact of a country leaving the single currency, with little emphasis being given to the political, social, security or foreign policy implications.

    The European Commission said: "We want Greece to stay in the euro." But it emphasised that Athens could only accomplish that by living up to the terms of the bailout bargain with the eurozone.

    Markets are braced for figures due out on Tuesday to show that the eurozone is officially in a double dip recession, and fear that the events of the past few days will intensify the slump.

    On Monday investors were seeking out safe havens, including German bonds and the pound, as they sold eurozone assets. The boss of PKO Bank Polski predicted that Europe was hurtling towards its Lehman moment, with Portugal, Spain, and Italy being dragged into the slipstream of a Greek exit.

    Stephen Lewis, economist at Monument Securities, said: "It may well be that eurozone leaders would raise the threat of Greece being obliged to leave the eurozone if it fails to comply with bailout terms, so as to sway Greek voters to support pro-bailout parties. But if this threat were to be credible, the EU would have to start elaborating measures to facilitate Greece's departure from the eurozone well before the election took place. Otherwise, Greek voters would assume eurozone leaders were bluffing."

    Article history
    Business
    Eurozone crisis · European monetary union · Economics · Euro
    World news
    Greece · Europe · European Union · Germany
    More news
    More on this story

    Greece to hold more coalition talks
    President to meet all party leaders as political uncertainty sends markets plunging amid fears of possible eurozone exit
    Eurozone crisis - Monday 14 May
    François Hollande faces a baptism of fire in Berlin
    EU leaders set for showdown on fate of euro as crisis deepens
    How Greece could leave the eurozone – in five difficult steps
    Angela Merkel dealt further blow by German voters
    Comment and analysis

    Greece should follow Argentina's lead
    Larry Elliott: As Argentina's experience after 2002 shows, when an economic crisis hits it is often best to go it alone
    Is the single currency worth saving at all?
    Greece would face dire consequences from a euro exit – as its people know
    We agree about Europe
    Is a Greek exit from the euro inevitable?
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    Last edited by Lettherebelight; 15th May 2012 at 06:49.

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    Default Re: Good morning to the beginning of the end of the Euro

    Update...here we go from bad to worse.

    Do not underestimate this controlled chaos.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...talks-collapse

    One thing is sure to lead to another...

    Last edited by Lettherebelight; 15th May 2012 at 16:37.

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    Default Re: Good morning to the beginning of the end of the Euro

    Hmmmm, now why would they want to sink the Euro?



    Here's a link to today's Daily Mail:


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...rrify-all.html
    Last edited by Lettherebelight; 15th May 2012 at 17:00.

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    Default Re: Good morning to the beginning of the end of the Euro

    Perhaps this is more appropriate..


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    Default Re: Good morning to the beginning of the end of the Euro

    For this of us who are financially illiterate, what will this mean for the world economy? (I can surmise what it means for Greece.)
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    Default Re: Good morning to the beginning of the end of the Euro

    Quote Posted by nearing (here)
    For this of us who are financially illiterate, what will this mean for the world economy? (I can surmise what it means for Greece.)
    The collapse of the EU and the Euro will have devastating consequences for us in the USA and for the rest of the world. The world economy is inextricably webbed, so what infects the hand infects the foot. It is the beginning of a horrific time in world history. Some maintain it is the end of the civilized world. Imagine a total collapse of the money system and then imagine that world leaders seem to have no interest in curtailing their egregious criminal activity, nor implementing change to forestall the event. You'd damnned well better have a second bedroom full of food storage and life essentials. I do not believe this is an over statement or fear mongering. The system simply cannot survive as is. It is the ultimate Ponzi scheme. The dominoes have begun to fall and they are all very close to each other. May Mother God in the heavens bless us and protect us.

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    Default Re: Good morning to the beginning of the end of the Euro

    Quote Posted by conk (here)
    Quote Posted by nearing (here)
    For this of us who are financially illiterate, what will this mean for the world economy? (I can surmise what it means for Greece.)
    The collapse of the EU and the Euro will have devastating consequences for us in the USA and for the rest of the world. The world economy is inextricably webbed, so what infects the hand infects the foot. It is the beginning of a horrific time in world history. Some maintain it is the end of the civilized world. Imagine a total collapse of the money system and then imagine that world leaders seem to have no interest in curtailing their egregious criminal activity, nor implementing change to forestall the event. You'd damnned well better have a second bedroom full of food storage and life essentials. I do not believe this is an over statement or fear mongering. The system simply cannot survive as is. It is the ultimate Ponzi scheme. The dominoes have begun to fall and they are all very close to each other. May Mother God in the heavens bless us and protect us.
    When Iceland went on their own, it didn't have much effect on the rest of us, right? Is it because Greece is a bigger economic holder that it will?
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    Default Re: Good morning to the beginning of the end of the Euro

    Well not only Greece but Spain Portugal and Ireland are also on the risk zone.

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    Default Re: Good morning to the beginning of the end of the Euro

    It's not Greece. Greece is just a symtom of the larger disease. Greece and other countries are the first manifestation of the much larger problem. As Molope said, it's Spain, Portugal, Italy and others. Then the rest of the world. Ironic, people who live in Africa, isolated indigenous cultures, etc. may not even realize what's going on, as they live in accordance with Mother Nature and don't subscribe to the evils of consumerism.

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    Default Re: Good morning to the beginning of the end of the Euro

    I know our system is just a long running Ponzi scheme. But it has been chugging toward the cliff for a very long time. Do we think that this event places our toes over the edge?
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    Default Re: Good morning to the beginning of the end of the Euro

    It may appear like a chaotic free fall to us, but things are being carefully manipulated.

    At the risk of posting this in the wrong sub forum, I offer Svali's testimony from some years back.

    "Want to hear the end of the world scenario the Illuminati taught me? It was cult propaganda, but this is how they believed the New Order would be ushered in: There will be continued conflict in the mideast, with a severe threat of nuclear war being the culmination of these hostilities. An economic collapse that will devastate the economy of the US and Europe, much like the Great Depression.

    One reason that our economy continues limping along is the artificial supports that the Federal Reserve had given it, manipulating interest rates, etc. But one day, this won’t work (or this leverage will be withdrawn on purpose) and the next Great Depression will hit. The government will call in its bonds and loans, and credit card debts will be called in. There will be massive bankruptcies nationwide. Europe will stabilize first, and Germany, France and England (surprise) will have the strongest economies, and will institute through the UN an international currency. Japan will also pull out, although their economy will be weakened.

    Peacekeeping forces will be sent out by the UN and local bases to prevent riots. The leaders will reveal themselves, and people will be asked to make a pledge of loyalty during a time of chaos and financial devastation.

    Doesn’t sound pleasant, does it? I don’t know the exact time frame for all of this, and wouldn’t want to even guess. The good news is that if a person is debt-free, owes nothing to the government or credit debt, and can live self sufficiently, they may do better than other. I would invest in gold, not stocks, if I had the income. Gold will once again be the world standard, and dollars will be pretty useless (remember after the Civil War? Our money will be worth about what confederate money was after the collapse).

    All this said, it could just be cult propaganda taught to me and others to frighten us. It may be that none of this will happen. I sincerely hope not. I also strongly believe that God is able to stay the hand of the wicked, and to take care of our nation and others, if we turn to Him."

    Full article from 2008: http://svalispeaks.wordpress.com/200...world-council/
    http://svalispeaks.com/ (Something's up with the Wordpress link)
    Last edited by Lettherebelight; 15th May 2012 at 21:13.

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    Default Re: Good morning to the beginning of the end of the Euro

    Soros Group just bought stakes in JP Morgan, Goldman...
    Coincidence or Destiny, it's all in the art of knowing.... III IIII charts ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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    Default Re: Good morning to the beginning of the end of the Euro

    Quote Posted by Rocky_Shorz (here)
    Soros Group just bought stakes in JP Morgan, Goldman...
    The better to short them later ?
    -- Formerly known as "ThePythonicCow", aka "Cow", "PCow", "TPC", "PC", "Mooster", ...

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    Default Re: Good morning to the beginning of the end of the Euro

    he's turning them back from the fall at this point, could be for leverage...

    $12B in losses when holding $200T in derivatives are nothing unless it is exposed...
    Coincidence or Destiny, it's all in the art of knowing.... III IIII charts ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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    Default Re: Good morning to the beginning of the end of the Euro

    Quote Posted by Rocky_Shorz (here)
    he's turning them back from the fall at this point, could be for leverage...

    $12B in losses when holding $200T in derivatives are nothing unless it is exposed...
    This reminds me a little of Warren Buffett investing $5-billion in Goldman Sachs in September 2008, a couple of months before Goldman hit bottom in the November crash.

    The big boys make public moves one way, while setting up for a bigger move they will help provoke, the other way.
    -- Formerly known as "ThePythonicCow", aka "Cow", "PCow", "TPC", "PC", "Mooster", ...

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    Default Re: Good morning to the beginning of the end of the Euro

    well the "Cynic" Chanos bankrolling Chinese investments sold stakes as Soros was buying in...

    Chanos is the Greek Short King...

    the ones he was selling Soros didn't buy was Citi and B of A...
    Last edited by Rocky_Shorz; 15th May 2012 at 21:50.
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    Default Re: Good morning to the beginning of the end of the Euro

    Quote Posted by Paul (here)
    Quote Posted by Rocky_Shorz (here)
    he's turning them back from the fall at this point, could be for leverage...

    $12B in losses when holding $200T in derivatives are nothing unless it is exposed...
    This reminds me a little of Warren Buffett investing $5-billion in Goldman Sachs in September 2008, a couple of months before Goldman hit bottom in the November crash.

    The big boys make public moves one way, while setting up for a bigger move they will help provoke, the other way.
    they buy in with a quarter of what they are willing to spend, as it tanks they keep increasing the holdings without the public attention of the first buy-in...
    Coincidence or Destiny, it's all in the art of knowing.... III IIII charts ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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    Default Re: Good morning to the beginning of the end of the Euro

    All you guy's language sounds lIke you are talking about someone betting in poker.

    Yep.
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    Default Re: Good morning to the beginning of the end of the Euro

    Quote Posted by nearing (here)
    I know our system is just a long running Ponzi scheme. But it has been chugging toward the cliff for a very long time. Do we think that this event places our toes over the edge?
    Good question, friend. We shall see as things unfold over the next few days...we won't have long to wait.

    This may answer a few questions, from the Telegraph, our most conservative paper:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...ht-unfold.html



     

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    Default Re: Good morning to the beginning of the end of the Euro

    Quote Posted by Rocky_Shorz (here)
    Soros Group just bought stakes in JP Morgan, Goldman...
    This may mean that these two banks will prevail after the next big crash. Other banks will be sacrificed and sold to Morgan and GS for pennies on the dollar. They'll dig out something rotten and blame the banks that get gobbled up so they'll fail and lose stock value. Soon everyone will bow down in allegiance to the mighty Goldman Sachs Bank of the World.

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