How to be the Greatest Forum on the Entire Internet

[Whiskey_Mystic]

This thread was triggered by a comment that Ishtar made.

Posted by Ishtar (here)

But I won't waste time talking to someone who won't listen because they're convinced they have the full story. There's nothing I can do with that.

Thank you again for your eloquence, Ishtar. This pretty much sums up my entire frustration with Avalon lately. I'd been searching for the words to describe it and you nailed it.

There are certain levels of training that people need to have in order for a community like this to thrive. This is why I am always going on and on about nonviolent communication. The other foundation that we all need in a forum so extraordinary as this one is the Zen concept of Beginner's Mind as taught by D.T. Suzuki.

Without these basic skills, our community continues to chase its tail in a cycle of reaction. We could be an example to the rest of the internet of how to conduct ourselves with respect for each other.

Maybe I will start a thread on this again. It hasn't gotten much traction before, but I think it very important.
__________________________________________________ _____

Ok, so I did start a new thread. To focus, this thread is for a discussion on how Avalon can be a shining beacon of civility and shared wisdom to an internet that seems to do more bickering and back biting than actually moving us towards the greater levels of understanding of the human condition and our place in the greater scheme of things.

Avalon has a tremendous amount of wisdom to share within itself, but we keep getting in our own way. Let's see where this goes.

[Ishtar]

What a great title for a thread, Whiskey!

I'm not sure if this is going off at a tangent, and whether you want to establish a more broader based discussion first, but, in the spirit of helping to get this thread going, I'd like to make just one suggestion upfront that I think would help enormously.

On my forum, we don't allow ad hominem attacks ... at all, not ever, not under any circumstances. People can attack the material or the content of the thread as much as they like. They can attack the argument. But they cannot make personal attacks on each other.

I find this makes a huge difference... not least, because, I have to say, most of us consenting adults know how to conduct ourselves without being given a load of rules. But I established that rule because it is, as I've learned to my cost, one of the favoured techniques of disinformation agents ~ they gang up on forums to bully their target into submission to support their own agenda. These sorts of people are known as 'bushwhackers' and they are very deliberate in how they attack. They circle like sharks and they go for the jugular.

A certain Harvard-based (yes, I kid you not) group of bushwhackers used to rule whole fiefdoms of Wikipedia in its early days, and so I first came up against them during the Aryan invasion of India debate which did actually in the end, rewrite the history books and those pages of Wikipedia, no matter how hard the bushwhackers defended them. But it was a bruising process for everyone concerned.

We are in an information war, and these kinds of operatives are on this forum and I even do have the odd one on mine, from time to time. I tend to let them stay on, because I'd rather have them where I can see them. If I chuck them off, they'll only send somebody else and then I'd have to get to know a new person all over again. But as soon as there's any hint of ad hominems, they're bounced off.

I believe that if ad hominems were a fireable offence on here, discussions would be much more pleasant and more productive and enlightening, because the other thing is, when people feel personally under attack, they dig in and get entrenched in their positions. So for people to be able to grow intellectually and in their understanding ~ to be able to change their mind, in essence, without feeling they're losing face ~ it's necessary to protect the members with that kind of a rule.

Anyway, just pitching in really, just to get this excellent thread started.... well done, Whiskey...!

[RMorgan]

Hey mate,

Great thread!

Well, the first basic requirement to achieve a real evolution of the mind is to keep it open, while preserving a healthy sense of skepticism.

When a person is arrogant and believe that he/she has already achieved an absolute level of knowledge about everything, well, it´s the same thing as being blind, deaf and dumb.

Then there´s no reason to be here in the first place.

People must have in mind that we discuss pretty complex stuff here, I mean, some top-level philosophic questions that even our most brilliant minds haven´t answered yet.

So, if the basic purpose of this forum is to be a healthy environment where we all can learn from each other, all of us must know that any level of arrogance isn´t welcomed, since we haven´t even scratched the surface of most problems discussed here.

I often wonder what would happen if the ancient Greek philosophers had such an amazing tool like the internet! What would they be able to achieve!

So, to sum up, be polite, respectful, humble and open-minded. That´s all we need for this forum to thrive!

Cheers,

Raf.

[Paula]

"...how Avalon can be a shining beacon of civility and shared wisdom to an internet that seems to do more bickering and back biting than actually moving us towards the greater levels of understanding of the human condition and our place in the greater scheme of things."

Allow the definitions of Wisdom to flourishes by accepting that we all express in uniquely different ways: heart, humor, heart/mind, mind, Mind, Higher Self, Oneness of All, I Amness, satire (as long as it's not towards another), silliness, etc.

See all expressions as a rich, creative diversity. Allow for equality of methods in these teaching tools & approaches to reach those that come upon them in synchronistic timing.

Trust that the knowledge seeps into the layers of spirit and material being, wherever the Wisdom was destined to serve in that moment.

Wisdom is allowing.
Wisdom is accepting.
Wisdom is co-creation.
Wisdom is experimentation.
Wisdom is the courage to step out of one’s comfort zone.
Wisdom is courage to speak from one’s heart.
Wisdom is encouragement.
Wisdom is the gift of unspoken words.
Wisdom is the courage to step aside.
Wisdom is allowing the other to shine.
Wisdom is knowing when to leave it be.
Wisdom is teaching with a nod and a smile.
Wisdom is knowing when to take a stand.

Peace,
WhiteCrowBlackDeer

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Ishtar,

I hear what you are saying. this is exactly why community foundation is so important. If people are grounded properly then they cannot be dragged into the whirlpool. Good provocateurs know just how to push our buttons and totally derail whatever productivity is happening. If we take responsibility for not reacting to the push of the button, then we cannot be derailed. I am easily frustrated myself , so I am as guilty as anyone on this point.

I think, for those who need it, Ruiz's The Four Agreements is a good starting point for learning not to react. Since everyone assumes that they are not the one that needs it, everyone should read it. If this were my classroom, it would be required.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Raf,

You are so right. If I am convinced that I already know something or that my position is "right", then I have no room to learn. Flexibility is needed. If I am not willing to seriously challenge my own sacred cows, then I am done learning. Humility is very valuable for learning new things.

[Ishtar]

Posted by Whiskey_Mystic (here)

I think, for those who need it, Ruiz's The Four Agreements is a good starting point for learning not to react. Since everyone assumes that they are not the one that needs it, everyone should read it. If this were my classroom, it would be required.

I hadn't heard of Ruiz's Four Agreements, and so I Googled them and found that they derive from what looks to be a shaman, or shamanic practitioner from the Toltec tradition, Don Miguel Ruiz and they are:

agreement 1

Be impeccable with your word - Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.

agreement 2

Don’t take anything personally - Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering.

agreement 3

Don’t make assumptions - Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

agreement 4

Always do your best - Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse and regret.

Thank you for introducing me to those four rules, Whiskey. They seem simple, but their roots go down deep into a well of wisdom.

[Fred Steeves]

Did any of ya'll ever have to sit at "the kid's table" when you were young at special family get together dinners? I hated it, and even though I was welcome to respectfully comment on the adult conversation at the main table, I discovered that I would soon become ignored if what I was saying didn't pass muster. Sometimes when I would persist anyway, mom had a way of discreetly giving me that "look"(LOL) that let it be known I was treading on thin ice, without being embarrassed family wide with a public admonishment.

There's an awful lot of energy crackling through the aether these days, we're living 24/7 in a giant pressure cooker. That goes for all of us, whether consciously realized or not.... But it's o.k.... If we can really make an effort to recognize, but cut ourselves some slack with the stupid sh!t we all do and say from time to time, that leads directly to having the same compassion for others when they say or do stupid sh!t.

Cheers All,
Fred

[Alex Laker]

I am convinced that if we disagree, then neither of us is right.

[DeDukshyn]

Ok ... So Ishtar and Whiskey have the "full story" and the rest ... don't? ... ;-)

People (including myself) need to stop saying this and start trying to show it for the rest of us rather than complaining others "don't know" -- it's just another victim mentality. Everyone has a "whole story" story.

We need to respect each other "stories" and move along if what we are saying is not complimentary to the thread in some constructive way. Too many "I don't like sandwiches!" posts and "You shouldn't eat sandwiches!" on threads where people want to discuss how to make sandwiches ... <as one of the reasons why Pie'n'eal left the forum>

The four agreements is good for just about anything - from thread posts to family interactions.

[Rocky_Shorz]

in a forum, people gather to discuss their ideas and opinions, the most important rule to remember is people react with anger to your words if it isn't what they believe, but that is someone who was awakened to beliefs outside of their box. let it settle in then continue the conversation...

if you reply with anger, a wall is built and it becomes personal...

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
Ok ... So Ishtar and Whiskey have the "full story" and the rest ... don't? ... ;-)

People (including myself) need to stop saying this and start trying to show it for the rest of us rather than complaining others "don't know" -- it's just another victim mentality. Everyone has a "whole story" story.

We need to respect each other "stories" and move along if what we are saying is not complimentary to the thread in some constructive way. Too many "I don't like sandwiches!" posts and "You shouldn't eat sandwiches!" on threads where people want to discuss how to make sandwiches ... <as one of the reasons why Pie'n'eal left the forum>

The four agreements is good for just about anything - from thread posts to family interactions.

I'm not sure what you mean. I certainly don't have any kind of "full story" and do not claim to. I'm a student and always will be.

What I have done here is to open a dialog about how our community can have a stronger foundation. I'm hoping that this thread will ultimately come up with practical knowledge to share and ideas for all of us.

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Whiskey_Mystic (here)
... TRIM ...
I'm not sure what you mean. I certainly don't have any kind of "full story" and do not claim to. I'm a student and always will be.

What I have done here is to open a dialog about how our community can have a stronger foundation. I'm hoping that this thread will ultimately come up with practical knowledge to share and ideas for all of us.

Perhaps I read too much into these words: (clarity edit) If one is to judge who does or doesn't have "the full story" - then the one judging would have to have the full story to determine this. All moot as it was intended as light gesture - hopefully communicated by the winky smiley ...

Posted by Whiskey_Mystic (here)
This thread was triggered by a comment that Ishtar made.

Posted by Ishtar (here)

But I won't waste time talking to someone who won't listen because they're convinced they have the full story. There's nothing I can do with that.

Thank you again for your eloquence, Ishtar. This pretty much sums up my entire frustration with Avalon lately. ....

=======================

.... I'm hoping that this thread will ultimately come up with practical knowledge to share and ideas for all of us

You mean like this below which I posted in the same post? I think I got what you were after and participated. And I appreciate with and agree with these efforts, else I would have steered clear ;-) Good initiative for sure!

We need to respect each other "stories" and move along if what we are saying is not complimentary to the thread in some constructive way. Too many "I don't like sandwiches!" posts and "You shouldn't eat sandwiches!" on threads where people want to discuss how to make sandwiches ... <as one of the reasons why Pie'n'eal left the forum>

The four agreements is good for just about anything - from thread posts to family interactions.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
We need to respect each other "stories" and move along if what we are saying is not complimentary to the thread in some constructive way. Too many "I don't like sandwiches!" posts and "You shouldn't eat sandwiches!" on threads where people want to discuss how to make sandwiches ... <as one of the reasons why Pie'n'eal left the forum>

I totally agree about the sandwiches. That kind of thing is just not helpful.

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Whiskey_Mystic (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
We need to respect each other "stories" and move along if what we are saying is not complimentary to the thread in some constructive way. Too many "I don't like sandwiches!" posts and "You shouldn't eat sandwiches!" on threads where people want to discuss how to make sandwiches ... <as one of the reasons why Pie'n'eal left the forum>

I totally agree about the sandwiches. That kind of thing is just not helpful.

I think in cases where someone does feel compelled to to interrupt a thread's intent with a potentially worthy non-constructive point that would be considered off topic, the best course of action would be to start a new thread with the new perspective, link to the original and then from the original to the new one, and invite the contraversial discussion to this new thread, that way everyone has access to both side if anyone so cares for that size of view, but at the same time the original thread starters topic stays on the topic of his intent. If we all considered this a little more, it may save the mods some time having to "split" threads. My 2 cents

[sygh]

Thank you for starting this thread. It would be wonderful to see Avalon continue as a forum. So much is going on in the world today, so much pressure, so such strife, and so much disinformation being spewed out, it's hard to know what's bunk and what's solid. The fact is, our government, leastwise, here in the U.S. and the Federal Reserve has manipulated us and lied to us so many times, and about so many things, we no longer trust them to tell us anything of substance. That is the real problem I see, it's a matter of trust.

Further, many different groups of people out in the world are being told they are being personally attacked by other groups of people. This type of disinformation is a campaign aimed at dividing us. Let us be a beacon of light for those who find themselves rubbing their eyes while saying to themselves, this ain't the way it really is.

Maybe we can go forward by trying to make sure what we post really does have some substance to it by first checking the source. And even after checking the source and doing our homework before we post the information, we can still be ready to be open to debunking it -if necessary. Just trying to help.

One thing is for sure... its not bad to hope or work toward a better today, or a better future. Every sham or con is not a reflection of some sort of bad we have done, here at Avalon; the twisted image actually belongs to the grifter. Further, not every person trying to do something good is Superman or Superwoman. These people are only trying to do the best they can. Let us respect them and God grant us the wisdom to tell the difference.

Finally, this is Bill Ryan's forum and though Bill isn't frequenting the place much any more, it may just be we are keeping the forum going until such a time as he either comes back or, decides to pass the torch.

Oceans of Love,

Robin

[UnrealDreams]

I have seen this destructive behavior many times on this forum. Even some of the people who have commented in this thread are the perpetrators, yet they are clueless to this fact. The way that I avoid this is to state my opinion, and then be respectful of everyone else's opinion. IT IS THE BICKERING BACK AND FORTH THAT LOWERS THE QUALITY OF THE FORUM.

If you state your opinion, and then after another viewpoint is achieved, you are coming back into the thread to state the same opinion again in order to 'convince' everyone that your opinion is the correct opinion, then you are part of the problem. It lowers the readability of the thread and degrades the conversation. If your opinion is different than mine, I consider myself lucky to have been exposed to this different viewpoint, and I will thank you and go on about my day. We should all be able to accept other opinions and keep an open mind.

If you want to bicker back and forth, there is a great feature on this forum called a PM. You can use that feature in lieu of destroying the readability of a thread with your back and forth bickering.

I grew up in a rough area of town. There was a saying that I learned there that is true 99% of the time. "If you don't start any sh!t there won't be any sh!t". For me, back then this saying was put into practice as a matter of survival. I use this simple saying in my everyday life and it forces one to be respectful. It sounds so crude, but there is real wisdom in that saying. Respect is something that needs to be earned......but if you don't display respect you will never earn it.

peace and love to all-

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Posted by UnrealDreams (here)
Even some of the people who have commented in this thread are the perpetrators, yet they are clueless to this fact.

Perhaps, but perhaps they do realize they have done this. I myself have done this. Any of us can be tempted to try to have the last word when frustrated.

Thank you for your contribution.

[write4change]

This is a thread that a lot of people could benefit thinking about. That will be the reason it won't go very far. I still wish to express my appreciation for your attempt. Lately, it feels like this has turned into a really weird place. This threads that divide the issue of what is really masculine and feminine have really put me off. I read them to see who was doing what but have not commented in any of them.

Some stuff is now so off the wall that I feel like the intellectual integrity of the site is severely threatened. I personally do not want to be assiciated with sheer meaness and nonsenese. So I stay away which then creates a vacuum from my behavior and others like me that allows more craziness to be on display. It is threads like this that give me hope but I personally do not know what to do with my own feelings. When I am revolted I leave--I do not share.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Write4Change, when we first met you were so vocal and full of information and life experiences to share. I know you have had some physical challenges and cognitive stuff going on, but I have missed your voice here. I know that you have a lot that you could share regarding gender issues. I understand that you don't want to open yourself up to any backlash, but I hope you find a way to share. There are definitely people here that can connect with what you offer.