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    Default A Greek exit: How would it work? -- Report from ABC Australia Online

    G'day All,

    I don't usually post entire articles but this one I thought was too important to merely link to.

    How's this for a sample:
    Quote a Greek exit from the eurozone could cost anything from 350 billion euro to a trillion euro
    It can be read here.

    If you take the time and visit the original there is an interview with a Greek MP and professor of economics at the University of Athens, Euclid Tsakalotos, from the ABC Australia show Lateline (transcript available here) where Tsakalotos states:

    Quote Well, as you know, in the 70s and 80s we had a third world debt problem, and eventually the creditors realised when you lend too much, half the problem is with the people who borrowed, and half the problem is with the banks that lend too much. And that's why we had the Brady bonds, and we had an international solution to the debt crisis of the south. So we're saying something very similar. It's all very well saying that it's just the Greek people who have been profligate but there's a crisis in Spain and in Portugal and in Italy, and part of the problem was the banks made an awful lot of money during those periods, and now that they're not making money the rest of society is socialising their losses. Quite frankly, that isn't capitalism, is it? It's not a capitalist solution that every time the banks don't make money and make losses, the rest of society pays for it. Thus we think that to get out of this crisis we have to have a very different banking system that invests in the real economy...
    It's just good to hear someone looking at the history of the problems in the economic "system" (at least as far back as the 70's and 80's) and explaining their relevance to the present "crisis" while placing the blame squarely at the feet of the bankers, corporations and oligarchs. I get sick of people who only think within the context of their lifetime and have little or no knowledge of historical influences that create the environment that forms our "present" and provide a way of understanding what will happen based on historical review.
    Most economists in 2007 would not have believed that a world wide recession was at hand.
    Most economists didn't understand the history of the boom/bust cycle because they thought it couldn't happen under the modified Friedman/neo-coinservative model.
    Guess they were wrong.

    ####################

    A Greek exit: How would it work?
    By Amy Simmons



    Imagine for a moment you live in Greece.

    You wake up one morning to the news your country is no longer part of the eurozone.

    You were meant to buy groceries and pay bills today, but what happens to your money now?

    You may feel a glimmer of hope, or you may actually be in the middle of a "financial holocaust".

    If Greece exited the eurozone, there would be several advantages, but experts say the move would also catapult the country into a chaotic abyss.

    First, they say Greece would go into lockdown. It would close its borders and freeze its entire banking system. It would also be impossible for Greek businesses to trade internationally.

    Then an emergency currency would be brought into effect. This would hold Greece over until it could print enough drachma - Greece's former currency - to replace the old euro.

    A tsunami of economic effects would roar across Europe. All euro notes and coins which originated in Greece would no longer be legal tender, and Greece's debt would potentially double.

    ABC News Online spoke to two economists who say, logistically, a Greek exit from the eurozone would be a nightmare, and economically, the consequences would be dire.

    Satyajit Das, a financial risk analyst, former banker and author of Extreme Money, says one thing is for sure - the announcement would come as a surprise.

    "The first thing is you have to do it unannounced, because if you do it announced everybody in Greece will take their money out of the country to preserve its purchasing power," he said.

    "Twenty per cent of the deposits in Greek banks have left already, and if they got a wiggle that this was going to occur that would double almost over night.

    "So basically you have to do it by surprise. What you would do is effectively close the borders and shut down the entire banking system, pretty much the whole economy, for a few days.

    "Then you would take all the euro in circulation within Greece and stamp them as Greek euro, and then you would have a process of replacing them with your new currency, but that's going to take two to six months.

    "The stamped euro would be a temporary currency. Overseas people would never accept it because the value of those Greek euro would be different, so they could only be spent internally."

    'Destruction of wealth'

    Mr Das says the Greek currency would fall anywhere between 20 and 50 per cent in value.

    "After you introduce the new currency, the Greek euro, which would now be the new drachma, would fall in value like a stone," he said.

    "Basically you’re talking about people's life savings, their wealth, their incomes being completely wiped out.

    "The price of all imported goods in Greece would go through the roof - and Greece imports a lot of stuff.

    "So the Greek debt will potentially double, and they won't be able to pay it back.

    "They will default on their debt so all the people who have lent to them will suffer losses - these are German banks, French banks, investors."

    He says a Greek exit from the eurozone could cost anything from 350 billion euro to a trillion euro.

    "It would be the cost of the absolute total destruction of wealth and purchasing power of the Greeks," he said.

    Mr Das says it would be the "financial equivalent of the holocaust".

    He says because such a move is unprecedented, the full impact is impossible to predict.

    Take this analogy, he says: "If you want to be at Hiroshima to watch what an atomic bomb does, stand at ground zero and look up, this is what you're doing when you're exiting from the euro, because none of us know how this will work.

    "We know what the mechanics are, but we don't know what the full effects will be.

    "But at the end of it all, the average Greek citizen would be considerably poorer."

    Chaos and violence



    Dr Oliver Hartwich, editor of the New Zealand Initiative and former employee of the Centre for Independent Studies in Australia, paints a similar picture for Greece.

    He says Greek people are "torn" over whether they want to leave the euro, but if it does happen, violence and chaos will reign.

    He largely agrees with Mr Das on the mechanics of the move.

    "The most likely scenario is that they would take in the old euro notes and stamp them so that on that day all the euro notes in Greece would have some sort of magnetic ink stamp that would render them useless outside Greece.

    "It would serve as an emergency Greek national currency.

    "They'd have to have some kind of check at the border so nobody could take their euro out of the country. All the Greek bank accounts would be frozen and there would be a bank holiday for maybe a week so nobody could access their funds."

    Dr Hartwich agrees printing a new currency could take months, but he is not sure if Greece could even pay for it.

    "What would also happen outside Greece is that the other European countries would have to remove all the coins and bank notes from Greece, because you can still recognise where these coins have come from in Europe - the Greek 2 euro coin has an owl on the back and the bank notes have serial numbers on them and a country code.

    "So all of them would need to be taken out of circulation in the rest of Europe.

    "Banks would advertise these are no longer legal tender and people would probably take their money into the banks and get it exchanged for say German or French euro."

    'Massive operation'

    Dr Hartwich estimates about 2 to 3 per cent of the total euro in circulation is from Greece.

    He says if recent times are anything to go by, the exit would not be pretty.

    "It could be quite chaotic, it could be violent, there could be people storming banks to try and get their money out," he said.

    "Once you tell Greek people their savings in the bank are no longer worth what they though it would be worth, it could become ugly.

    "It would take a lot of police and military effort - it would be a massive operation."

    But it isn't all doom and gloom.

    Mr Das says there would be at least two advantages for Greece if it did leave the eurozone - tourism would increase and its debt would be waived.

    "Their tourism industry, which is their main industry, would benefit because they would become cheaper, so people who are now going to Turkey may come back to the Greek islands," he said.

    "Also, the amount of debt they have would be reduced because they would essentially be unable to pay their debt, so they would just default."

    Both Mr Das and Dr Hartwich say they have no idea whether Greece will leave the eurozone.

    They say the decision to stay or go rests in the hands of Greek politicians, but that essentially, every remaining option is a bad one.

    ####################

    Centralisation causes instability and breeds structured systems of control. Decentralise, decentralise, decentralise. How long will it take before people realise that any centralised structure is designed to consolidate and concentrate power in the hands of the few and that it automatically breeds the money/control/power structures that reinforce each other to increase and further centralisation. **shakes head in dismay**
    Kind Regards,
    Panopticon
    "What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence.
    The only consequence is what we do."

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    Default Re: A Greek exit: How would it work? -- Report from ABC Australia Online

    Pretty good summary of the situation and the repercussions. I'm hoping for way bigger shockwaves though. I feel Greece is pivotal in unmasking how useless our current form of governance is and how radical the change needs to be. This is one problem that we can get out of using the same old thinking, so we should be forced (with any luck) to think outside the box.

    I'm at the edge of my seat with the Greece situation.

    Cheers,

    Hector

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    Default Re: A Greek exit: How would it work? -- Report from ABC Australia Online

    Awesome thread panopticon...

    Perhaps this will usher in a new change!!! Will be watching this with "interest" (no pun intended).

    TM
    "Seek the Truth.....and the Truth shall set you free!!!"

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    Default Re: A Greek exit: How would it work? -- Report from ABC Australia Online

    'you have to do it unannounced... Greece would go into lockdown. It would close its borders and freeze its entire banking system...'

    What a chilling thought.

    Add to that the fact that Greeks are now set to go back to the polls in mid-June amidst all this economic, political and societal uncertainty and I wonder how good all this centralisation looks to the average "Greek on the streets" now?

    Quote Posted by hectorlca (here)
    I feel Greece is pivotal in unmasking how useless our current form of governance is and how radical the change needs to be. This is one problem that we can get out of using the same old thinking, so we should be forced (with any luck) to think outside the box.
    Well said hectorica. However I hold little hope for a sudden awakening of the masses. The control mechanisms are too well ingrained to allow for "radical" thinkers to gain the floor and if they did, by some accident, start getting listened to and gain some traction in the consciousness of the general populace, the international control mechanisms (IMF, World Bank Group, UN, etc) would step in and bring it all to a halt.

    All I predict happening is a return to the same old floored system just with new faces in control. Same as everywhere else. Yes, there maybe a "peoples revolution" in Greece, but really what is the likely outcome?

    The ones who wish to control will continue to control as long as the centralising hierarchical "representative" model is maintained to consolidate power in the hands of the few.
    Kind Regards,
    Panopticon
    "What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence.
    The only consequence is what we do."

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    Default Re: A Greek exit: How would it work? -- Report from ABC Australia Online

    Spain has joined the Euro crisis with it officially being reported as entering a recession, joining Italy, while France is on the verge:
    Quote Spain was officially declared to be in recession overnight, and is desperately trying to shore up a crippled banking system amid concerns it may need outside help to do so.
    Moody's has cut the debt ratings of 16 Spanish banks by one to three notches, citing the ongoing recession and the reduced credit-worthiness of the Spanish government.
    Italy, the third biggest eurozone economy, is also in recession, while number two France has only narrowly escaped a similar fate.
    The debt crisis has so far claimed Greece, Ireland and Portugal. The fear is that Europe's current rescue mechanisms would not be able to cope with a Spanish bailout, especially if Italy was to be in trouble too.
    This instability has led to investors leaving the stock markets resulting in share values and exchanges dropping world wide. As one analyst is reported to have said:
    Quote One of our advisors got asked by a client this morning what they should be buying, and she said 'the only thing I'll be buying you today is lunch'
    Kind Regards,
    Panopticon

    Sources:
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-1...-spain/4018550
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-1...th-low/4019334
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-1...urther/4020136
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-1...-chief/4020154
    "What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence.
    The only consequence is what we do."

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    Default Re: A Greek exit: How would it work? -- Report from ABC Australia Online

    G'day All,

    The G8 are busy shuffling the chairs:
    Quote We welcome the ongoing discussion in Europe on how to generate growth, while maintaining a firm commitment to implement fiscal consolidation to be assessed on a structural basis. We agree on the importance of a strong and cohesive eurozone for global stability and recovery, and we affirm our interest in Greece remaining in the eurozone while respecting its commitments.
    They can try to "spin it" any way they want. The Greek debt "difficulties" (not to mention the other Eurozone "problems") is symptomatic of a centralised monetary policy that is in crisis. There is a real risk of the Eurozone collapsing and this experiment in fiscal mismanagement leaving the average "person" financially much poorer while the elite have buffered themselves against loss.

    If Greece leaves the Euro who would be the next in line?
    Spain, Italy or Portugal?
    Kind Regards,
    Panopticon
    "What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence.
    The only consequence is what we do."

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    Default Re: A Greek exit: How would it work? -- Report from ABC Australia Online

    The various European State central banks have been considering the collapse of the Euro since at least the end of 2011 with a report from the Wall Street Journal (Dec 11th 2011) stating:
    Quote Some central banks in Europe have started weighing contingency plans to prepare for the possibility that countries leave the euro zone or the currency union breaks apart entirely, according to people familiar with the matter...
    Athens has buzzed with rumors over the past year that the Bank of Greece was secretly printing drachmas, Greece's pre-euro currency.
    Don't forget the Irish:
    Quote In recent weeks, officials at Ireland's central bank have held preliminary discussions about whether they might need to acquire additional printing capacity in case the euro zone ruptures or Ireland exits in order to return to its prior currency, the Irish pound, according to people familiar with the matter. Officials have discussed reactivating old printers or enlisting a private company, the people said. "All kinds of things are being looked at that weren't being looked at two months ago," according to a person at one meeting.
    While this report was either ignored or ridiculed at the time, it might now be more clearly understood when placed into the context of what a Greek exit would look like.
    Quote you have to do it unannounced... Greece would go into lockdown. It would close its borders and freeze its entire banking system
    Let's not forget the various European non-Euro countries who have pegged their currency to the Euro as a reference. What a tangled web they've weaved...

    Just a little food for thought.
    Kind Regards,
    Panopticon
    Last edited by panopticon; 20th May 2012 at 09:47. Reason: Forgot to link the WSJ article
    "What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence.
    The only consequence is what we do."

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    Default Re: A Greek exit: How would it work? -- Report from ABC Australia Online

    It seems some people think a greek exit would stabalize things, atleast some of the people I've talked to which makes no sense, acting like its not systemic is pretty careless. Nice aticle though.
    The minute you settle for less than you deserve, you get even less than you settled for.
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    Default Re: A Greek exit: How would it work? -- Report from ABC Australia Online

    Here's an excellent paper from February on the Eurozone crisis titled 'A PRIMER ON THE EURO BREAKUP: Default, Exit and Devaluation as the Optimal Solution' by analyst firm Variant Perception:
    http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/819...3qltzkyklsibr9

    Hmmmm, just heard an unconfirmed report that Greece will be leaving the Euro and returning to the Drachma on ABC News Australia.
    Not being mentioned anywhere else so maybe I misheard...
    Kind Regards,
    Panopticon

    Addendum:
    Found an article on fnarena.com that indicates where the unconfirmed report comes from:
    Quote Comments hit the wires from former Greek prime minister George Papademos that a Greek exit from the eurozone would be a catastrophe and that right now exit preparations are underway in Greece. On that news the Dow fell 100 points in a heartbeat.

    Tonight sees an "informal" meeting of EU leaders, at which "what to do about Greece" will be a hot agenda topic. It would be naïve not to assume any Greek government-in-waiting has been using anti-austerity election platforms to extract some leverage with the EU, and it would be foolish to assume that someone behind the scenes in Athens has not been tasked with working on an exit contingency plan. The timing of Papademos' comments is interesting on the eve of the meeting, and the EU powers-that-be make no secret of the fact they have been busy working on their own contingency plan ever since Greece failed to form a government. Meanwhile, the latest Greek polls hint at a possible swing back to a pro-euro stance ahead of the June 17 vote re-cast.
    Last edited by panopticon; 23rd May 2012 at 03:45. Reason: Addendum
    "What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence.
    The only consequence is what we do."

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    Default Re: A Greek exit: How would it work? -- Report from ABC Australia Online

    Found this article on the reasons for/against a Greek Exit as well as various possible outcomes.
    Quite a good read if you can handle it.

    #########################

    Euro Crisis: Why a Greek Exit Could Be Much Worse than Expected

    More than one kind of damaging domino effect is possible if Greece is forced to abandon the euro.



    At the G-8 meeting at Camp David last weekend, lip service was paid to keeping Greece in the euro zone. But economists who are watching the continuing financial crisis in Europe are increasingly coming to two conclusions: Greece is likely to abandon the common euro currency now used by 17 European countries. And when it does, perhaps within a matter of months, there will be a damaging domino effect throughout much of Europe. Not all domino effects are created equal, however. And there are two possible consequences if Greece leaves the euro zone that few observers seem to have considered.

    The scenario everyone recognizes is based on Greece’s reviving its traditional currency, the drachma. In this case, salaries and prices within Greece would be converted from euros to drachmas, and the drachma would be allowed to depreciate to make the Greek economy more competitive. The problem comes with debts that are denominated in euros, especially if the lenders are outside of Greece. These lenders would naturally resist being repaid with less valuable drachmas. However, if Greek borrowers have to repay the loans with euros, the debt would become more expensive for them to pay off after the drachma is devalued.

    The most likely domino effect, therefore — and the one most widely expected — is that debts to non-Greek creditors would be compromised after Greece switches to the drachma. There would be lawsuits over which currency to use, or borrowers would default on the loans, or lenders would be forced to accept reductions in the amount of the loans that have to be repaid, in order to avoid outright defaults. Whichever outcome occurs, the lenders lose money. Just as in the U.S. mortgage-lending crisis, once some banks lose enough money to become troubled, the contamination spreads to other banks, because they all lend to one another.

    That’s not a pleasant prospect, but at least it’s fairly clear how to manage it. Greece leaves the euro zone, and its economy suffers for a couple of years but then stabilizes. With Greece gone, the rest of the euro zone could be propped up more easily. Many major banks take big losses on Greek debt. Some fail, some are taken over by stronger banks. Governments have to bail out the biggest losers. And the banking system is made sound again, although at considerable expense to taxpayers in many countries.

    But what if Greece’s exit from the euro zone causes other kinds of domino effects that don’t have obvious precedents? The fallout could be a lot harder to control. As I see it, there are two scenarios that aren’t getting the attention they should.

    Derivatives could set off a global chain reaction. Most people have heard of the complex, “synthetic” financial securities known as derivatives, which Warren Buffett famously referred to as “financial weapons of mass destruction.” In the case of bonds, these are known as credit derivatives. They include all sorts of loans secured by bonds as well as incredibly complicated vehicles that amount to insurance policies if the bonds default. No one really knows how much of this stuff is sloshing around the international financial system, but the total value for all types of bonds was estimated at more than $50 trillion in 2008 and has continued to grow rapidly since then. Trouble is, if the bonds underlying these derivatives become questionable, all the derivatives become uncertain too, even if they add up to far more than the value of the bonds themselves. Moreover, some of the synthetic investments based on Greek bonds could be governed by Greek law, some by British law (if anything originated in London) and some by U.S. law (if Wall Street was involved).

    What if one legal system accepts the conversion of euro loans into drachmas and another doesn’t? Everything could be thrown into the courts for months. Even worse, if synthetic investments secured by Greek bonds become untrustworthy, why would anyone trust similarly complex investments involving Spanish bonds or Italian bonds?

    The result of a meltdown in the world of derivative investments could cause far more chaos than simple bond defaults, not least because it would be almost impossible to figure out who owed how much to whom.

    Greece recovers quickly, and all the other troubled countries want out of the euro zone too. At the opposite end of the spectrum is the possibility that Greece abandons the euro and bounces back surprisingly fast. Paradoxically, that could cause another sort of disaster. Both Argentina and Iceland suffered currency collapses, but after a horrible year or two, they each rebounded and were better off than if they had fought to save a failing currency. Analysts point out that both countries were big exporters of grain, meat or fish and that sales boomed after currencies were devalued. But Greece, in its own way, could profit from a similar recovery — a rebound in tourism. A 30% drop in the exchange rate might make a vacation in Greece the best deal in years.

    So why would that be bad? Think of what it would mean for the other countries in the euro zone. How could the Italian government convince its people of the need for higher taxes or the Spanish government explain soaring unemployment if Greece were obviously better off outside the euro zone? Result: the entire European Union might unravel, with financial consequences many times greater than those resulting from Greece alone.

    I’m not predicting an extreme, doomsday scenario as the most likely outcome of a Greek exit. But it is important to realize just how unpredictable this situation is. In my own stock portfolio, I eliminated all the banks a long time ago and have largely stuck with financially strong companies that deal in essential goods, such as oil and gas, consumer staples and pharmaceuticals. The euro created a financial entity comparable in scale to the U.S., and if it gets into serious trouble, the financial effects could be world shaking.

    Source

    #########################
    Kind Regards,
    Panopticon
    "What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence.
    The only consequence is what we do."

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    Default Re: A Greek exit: How would it work? -- Report from ABC Australia Online

    What strikes me again and again is that the picture is made very black and white.

    There are only two choices:
    1. pull the plug
    2. kick the can down the road

    Because the sky will be falling if we pull the plug it legitimizes to continue kicking the can down the road which
    blackmails us into accepting the non-functional system. How long will it take for the masses to realize that if
    you keep throwing fantasy money in a bottom less pit ... it's only for the show not anything functional ?
    Because in reality it will never stop, there is reason to continue so why change it ?

    They only keep on proving how powerless they really are.
    If we continue 2 long enough 1 will be an automatic result. Since 1 will be the end result anyway why not do
    it in a managed way rather than by accident ?

    Well, we know the answer: because there are no real capable managers to handle it.

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    Default Re: A Greek exit: How would it work? -- Report from ABC Australia Online

    I wonder if spain and italy will follow. I don't see this ending well for Greece unfortunately. The austerity measures are migrating towards America, people think its tough right now, its only about to get much much worse. Obama doesn't want another recession or worse before the election, its so quiet in the media you don't hear much about such talks.
    The minute you settle for less than you deserve, you get even less than you settled for.
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    Default Re: A Greek exit: How would it work? -- Report from ABC Australia Online

    Quote Posted by toad (here)
    I wonder if spain and italy will follow. I don't see this ending well for Greece unfortunately. The austerity measures are migrating towards America, people think its tough right now, its only about to get much much worse. Obama doesn't want another recession or worse before the election, its so quiet in the media you don't hear much about such talks.
    G'day toad,

    Those are the trillion dollar questions aren't they!
    Spain, Portugal, Italy, Ireland...
    Guess we'll just have to wait and see...

    In regards to the US entering into a "double-dip recession":

    Found this for you:
    Quote Agency warns of US recession risk
    The US will probably plunge into a new recession in 2013 if lawmakers fail to prevent $607bn in scheduled tax increases and spending cuts due at the beginning of next year, congressional budget analysts have warned.
    The report, published on Tuesday, will be a key reference in the fraught political debate between Republicans and Democrats over how to avert a dramatic fiscal tightening in the world’s largest economy. (Source)
    this
    Quote Rising US recession risk poses the real threat to Europe
    The US economy has slowed to stall speed. A few lonely forecasters fear that America has already fallen back into recession, replicating the terrible double-dip of 1937.

    The Philly Fed’s manufacturing index dropped suddenly to minus 5.8 in May. The US Conference Board’s index of leading indicators fell in April. Job creation has slipped from 250,000 a month to nearer 130,000 in March and April.
    The Economic Cycle Research Institute (ECRI) says post-War personal income growth in the US has never been this weak for three months in a row without triggering a recession. It has happened ten out of ten times. (Source)
    and this:
    Quote US 'risks recession' if tax rises and spending cuts hit
    The US could fall off a "fiscal cliff" if tax rises and spending cuts due to take effect at the end of 2012 are not avoided, auditors have said.

    The US economy could go in to recession, shrinking at a rate of 1.3% in the first half of 2013, the Congressional Budget Office said.

    Expiring Bush-era tax cuts are due to be amplified by $1.2tn (£760bn) of spending cuts due on 1 January.

    Analysts say the issue could provoke a partisan stand-off in election season.
    (Source)
    Kind Regards,
    Panopticon
    "What we think, or what we know, or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence.
    The only consequence is what we do."

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