Excavating The Empty Tomb - The Gospels based on Homer's Odyssey?

[sigma6]

My my, have been away for awhile, this has turned into quite the bazaar of rationalisations (lol), learned my lesson, (ie. give an inch... ) but I did find this article that states:

http://www.redorbit.com/news/science...fferent-place/

"A new university-led study with NASA participation finds ancient Antarctica was much warmer and wetter than previously suspected. The climate was suitable to support substantial vegetation — including stunted trees — along the edges of the frozen continent." Which would indicate there would be plant life similar to arctic vegetation. Apparent conundrum solved. (with another theory mind you ;-)

Also the 'metal pellets' in the antler horn thing, as explanation for the Mammoths?... that would be like saying something like the Tunguska incident would cause worldwide flooding and an instantaneous ice age?

- anyhow, if anyone has anything on Roman manipulation and cultivation of Christianity, past or present in any form, I would be interested...

[observer]

Posted by sigma6 (here)
[....snip]
- anyhow, if anyone has anything on Roman manipulation and cultivation of Christianity, past or present in any form, I would be interested...

Back in the day when I still had some faith in the "channeled" message, I used to subscribe to a 'channel' by the name of Paul Shockley. This all goes back to the mid and late seventies.

Paul used to speak of, what he called, the "Beast". He was speaking of an hyperdimensional reptilian influence, but we didn't have any such understanding forty years ago.

I don't presently underwrite any channeled material. However, after following the words of many, I found Paul Shockley to be one of the most accurate. Here's a link to much of his work:
http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/cr...masterfile.htm
You might want to scroll-down to the four part series on "How the Jesus Myth was Created". Also, keep in mind this was all recorded in the late seventies.


When David Icke came along in the nineties, he produced a factual evidential trail for this hyperdimensional phenomenon, which he referred to as the 'Reptilian Agenda'.

I wouldn't dare send any member onto a forty year research mission, so, I'll shorten it to a few weeks of intense study. If one really wants to gain an understanding of how the Roman empire manipulated the text of the Bible - over a three hundred year period of time - one should start with a foundational understanding as offered by David Icke.

David Icke - "The Biggest Secret" - Chapter Five - "Conquered By The Cross":
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/bi...stsecret05.htm

Once one has realized the Roman Empire skillfully manipulated the faith of the Nazarene Essenes, i.e. early, or Gnostic Christianity, into Trinity Christianity in a carefully manipulated agenda to perpetuate the Roman Empire into what we now know as the Holy Roman Empire, or Catholicism. Once this realization has become manifest, it isn't too difficult, nor, too far of a stretch, to understand it was all done through hyperdimensional telepathic thought control.


For an in-depth understanding of who wrote the Gospels of the New Testament, see this link:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/so...pol_piso01.htm

The Piso family was one of those elite, "behind-the-scene, manipulators of the Roman Empire. Their influence spans many hundred years of Empire history.

Julius Cesar's last wife was a Piso. Herod was married to a Piso. All the Flavius Emperors, and for that matter, all those using the Flavius title were related to the Piso. The all-so-powerful, contemporary Bush family is related to the Piso of the Roman Empire.

[sigma6]

It's been a while since I have revisited this post, just an update, it looks like truthsurge has finally finished this series, I think I have downloaded 37 different sections going from part 1 to part 17 (they have extensions, a,b,c, some go as far as f...) so get started here again...

Excavating the empty tomb Part 1

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=4jOzCMy9e5E

And although this thread went miles off topic, Heyoka's Link #67 is a definite reference point
(update: sure enough this video dissapeared again, if you can find a link to update
send me a message, thanks)

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post500855

Secrets of Christianity: Selling Christianity


Source: Watch on Vimeo






Dr Bart Ehrman

And finally noted references in this work are Dr Bart Ehrman as being outstanding in my mind on the arguments regarding the interpretation of the New Testament. I didn't load the videos in this post in order to add more links without overloading the page

After viewing truthsurge's videos I have been drawn to Ehrman's, as it comes across as fair minded and scholarly. I don't find him biased or with ulterior motive, (or agenda) which I found to be the case in many of his opposing debaters, a testament to his acumen on the subject.

Peter, Paul, and Mary Magdalene - Bart Ehrman 37:36
https://youtube.com/watch?v=UHFTJIMtOik

Misquoting Jesus Speech at Stanford 1:35:20
https://youtube.com/watch?v=P0zWbL8Uqfw

Did Jesus Exist? Bart Ehrman Q&A 1:19:06
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Xt_pyrU8V3U

Forged - C2C Inteview by Ian Punnit 2:01:23
https://youtube.com/watch?v=tRrq3s3P3Pw

Bart Ehrman refutes facts in The Da Vinci Code
https://youtube.com/watch?v=0JFh_XoXbTY

[panopticon]

G'day Sigma6,

I really enjoy Ehrman's work and like what I've seen of his presentation style.
I'm looking forward to putting a few hours aside and watching these.
Thanks.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[sigma6]

What is really interesting is that Ehrman has now written a book on the question of the "Existence of Jesus"
I have seen a few interviews one included above, and I have to say, there is another dimension of Ehrman that is coming out here if I am not mistaken.

My initial reaction to these interviews is sketchy, precisely because I can't get 'a fix' on what exactly he is saying just yet, ie. there are other confounding variables. It seems like he has spent the good part of his many decades being the "devil's advocate" (for the lack of a better term) and in those debates he is brilliant, professional, articulate, etc...

Now he has taken on the argument of Jesus' existence, which I wanted to hear immediately, but I couldn't "get a fix" on the first two interviews... he does come across in the sense of his position is clear. That he DOES believe absolutely in the existence of Jesus as a once living man. Yet the confounding factor in one interview was that a famous critic who wanted to challenge him, was so overtly offensive according to Ehrman that he had 'broken off correspondence' ... Now it did sound like a legitimate offence... ie. he felt the critic was being petty, making personal attacks, and not being scholarly, given the context of his credentials, which is fair...

But it left it even more suspenseful then a world wrestling or boxing confrontation imo, because of course due to the lack of continued correspondence, we don't have a definitive argument... since the politics of 'etiquette' and protocol got in the way of any actual substance... another interview got highly technical to the point I actually can't recall specifics (ie. nothing stuck) ... So I only go by my 'instincts', consider first impressions very important, and I clearly got an 'ambiguous' signal on all this (not surprisingly) And this is NOT typical of Ehrman's usual delivery to begin with! ... (which in my mind is an indicator in itself... )

Even the way he approached the subject was rather interesting, he felt the question was beyond reproach, but because so many people were asking him if he believed if Jesus was a real man or a conceptualization (projection of Christ consciousness for example) he said he was rather surprised at this... This alone created a 'disconnect' as I perceive Bart to be very attuned with the popular sentiment, which is why he is such a popular speaker and author to begin with. Either way, this approach, came off as either naive, especially given his position, or political, as he is a master debater and is in fact already 'positioning' himself even before descending into his delivery. (sigh... alas... must go back and listen more... )

But I can't help feel that there is something going on here, reminds me of Fulford's expression... ie. there is "some horse trading going on" (which translates in my mind (for some reason) to my favourite saying "jockeying for position")
hmmm.... and as Richard Hoagland would say.... "stay tuned!" (LOL)

Will be looking up more of his discourses on this new angle which we should be seeing more of, as his book is relatively recent...

[panopticon]

G'day Sigma6,

I can't remember if I've asked this before but have you read any of former fundamentalist Baptist preacher turned sceptic Robert M. Price's work? He loves the Bible and presents many well informed arguments.



He's got 2 Phd's in theology and, I feel anyway, presents a good argument regards the lack of evidence to support the existence of an Historical Jesus as presented in the Bible.
He also has a couple of pod casts which, while being hard going sometimes, are very informative (here and here) and his main website is here.

Just thought I'd mention him as he's a bit of a character, particularly the pod casts, and well informed.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

Update

Just noticed that one of Ehrman's videos mentions Price so I'm intrigued as to what he says. I remember that Ehrman and he had a few problems at one stage in debates (since resolved as I understand it) and am interested whether that is reflected in this video.

[panopticon]

Well I've listened to this one so far:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Xt_pyrU8V3U

From what I've gathered so far Ehrman is not that far from the Mythicists.

He doesn't seem to reckon the miracles happened but can't definitively say that the historical Jesus didn't exist so says he probably did. His argument appear to be largely based on circumstantial evidence and conjecture. For example Jesus had a brother so Jesus existed. The apostles existed so Jesus existed. I'd have to read his book (no, I don't have time at the moment) to get a better understanding of his argument but there seems to be a bit of to and fro regards his claims (Osiris' rebirth mythology for example) that there are no stories from ancient times with a rebirth narrative (was it a physical resurrection story or not depicted in the NT which is a huge debate in and of itself).

There was an interesting short interview with him back on, get this, April 1st this year on NPR where he indicated that the mythicist argument was plausible:

Mythicists' arguments are fairly plausible, Ehrman says. According to them, Jesus was never mentioned in any Roman sources and there is no archeological evidence that Jesus ever existed. Even Christian sources are problematic – the Gospels come long after Jesus' death, written by people who never saw the man.

"Most importantly," he explains, "these mythicists point out that there are Pagan gods who were said to die and rise again and so the idea is that Jesus was made up as a Jewish god who died and rose again."
Source.

Here's the 8 minute interview:


Source.

My personal view has always been that there may well have been an historical Jesus (in all likelihood a wandering preacher) and this was the foundation on which the later stories were built on (around 70 CE, following the destruction of the 2nd Temple).

I'll get back when I've had more time to have a look at the other ones.
Kind Regards,
Panopticon

[sigma6]

More damning information, it parallels "Excavating the Empty tomb but seems to have divergent or additional information...
and here is one of the references from the last video in the series - a Red Ice Creations page...
a perfect fit on the origin of "A-braham"
http://www.redicecreations.com/speci...onserpent.html

The Empty Cross - Part 1

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=CB4zYq4DmLo

Ironically none of this makes me feel depressed or desiring to be a "atheist" (which is a total cop out in my mind) And there is no political agenda here, just a constant seeking of truth. This seems to lead into an even greater study I am convinced that the many numerous connections back to eastern philosophy are becoming a new line of focus in this ongoing research. And I have always stated the eastern philosophies are the language of quantum physics. So this is coming full circle to the idea that to understand the true nature of universe is to look within and understand self. Starting with our own consciousness. Welcome to the brave new world. And I think we better figure this out, before others decide again to do it for us, and create yet another One World Government where there is no escape, no God, no trust, just a corporate prison, which is what it is looking like they are trying to create.

[sigma6]

Well more historical literature, and this one should really resonate with anyone who has seriously studied, or has an appreciation of literary form.

Flash a brilliant light on the whole concept of how "Christianity" all started. It may be something different today, but how it started is a lot easier to understand then the story of Christianity taught in Roman Catholic Churches today... and no wonder... I would add this does not diminish my spiritual belief in the least but opens up a larger horizon. These Romans should be seen for who they are, the creators of much of the modern legal, medical, commercial world we live in today. A world of slaves created for these Master Manipulators.

In another view, various men have been raising the standard of "slavery" to the point where most are pretty satisfied with their "comfy jail cell" But why not take the next big leap. Educating the masses, replacing our Military Government with one based on real love of mankind. Or has that system already been put in place? (hidden in that BC in our hands?)

The sooner they are exposed for what they are the quicker we can get there...


Check out http://www.thenewsturmer.com/downloading/roman1_2.pdf

THE ROMAN ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY

by Joseph Atwill

1.THE FIRST CHRISTIANS AND THE FLAVIANS

There were many gods who are now seen as fictitious that were worshipped during the era when Jesus purportedly performed his miracles. But while Jesus’ feats were no less supernatural than those of Hercules, the possibility that he was also mythological has seldom been considered. One reason for this is that a first century historian, Flavius Josephus, recorded Jesus’ existence.

As he relates it, Josephus’ life was nearly as fabulous as his famous subject’s. He claimed to have been born in Jerusalem in 37 CE into the royal family of Judea, the Macabbees. Like Jesus, Josephus was a child prodigy who astounded his elders with his knowledge of Judaic law. Josephus also claimed to have been a member of each of the Jewish sects of his era, the Sadduccees, the Pharisees and the Essenes.

When the Jewish rebellion against Rome broke out in 66CE, though with no described military background and believing the cause hopeless, Josephus was given command of the revolutionary army of Galilee. Taken captive, he was brought before the Roman general Vespasian to whom he presented himself as a prophet. He then claimed that Judaism’s Messianic prophecies foresaw not a Jewish Messiah, but Vespasian, whom Josephus predicted would become the ‘Lord of all mankind.’

After this came to pass, so to speak, and Vespasian became the Emperor of Rome, he rewarded Josephus’ clairvoyance by adopting him. The Jewish rebel, Josephus ben Mattathias, thus became Flavius Josephus, the son of Caesar. At this point God spoke to Josephus and informed him that he had switched his favor from the Jews to the Romans. Josephus therefore became a ardent supporter of Rome’s conquest of Judea. When Vespasian returned to Rome to receive the mantle of Emperor he left Josephus behind to assist his son Titus with the siege of Jerusalem.

Once the city was destroyed, Josephus took up residence within the Flavian court at Rome where he enjoyed the patronage of Vespasian and the subsequent Flavian emperors, Titus and Domitian. It was while living there that Josephus wrote his two major works, War of the Jews, a description of the 66 –73 CE war between the Romans and the Jews, and Jewish Antiquities, a history of the Jewish people.

Josephus’ histories are of great significance to Christianity. Virtually all that we know regarding the social context of the New Testament (NT) is derived from them. Without these works the very dating of the events of the NT would be impossible.

Within his works, Josephus provided Jesus with the historical documentation that Hercules did not receive, a fact that is widely known. However, Josephus also provided Jesus with another kind of documentation that that has been largely forgotten. Early Christians believed that the events Josephus described in War of the Jewsproved that Jesus had been able to see into the future.

It is difficult to find even one early Christian who taught another position. Church scholars such as Tertullian, Justin Martyr, and Cyprian were unanimous in proclaiming that Josephus’ description of Titus Flavius’ conquest of Judea in War of the Jewsproved that Jesus’ prophecies had come to pass. As Eusebius wrote in 325CE:

‘If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian (Josephus) concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvelously Strange.’

One example of the ‘foreknowledge’ that so impressed Eusebius was Jesus’ prediction that the ‘foes’ of Jerusalem would encircle it with a wall, demolish the city and its temple, and ‘level’ its inhabitants.

And when He was now getting near Jerusalem…

He came into full view of the city, He wept aloud over it, and exclaimed,

For the time is coming upon thee when thy foes will throw up around thee earthworks and a wall, investing thee and hemming thee in on every side.

and level you and your children within you, and they will not leave one stone upon another in you; because you did not know the time of your visitation.’
[Luke 19:37-43]

All of the precise details Jesus foresaw for Jerusalem did indeed come to pass. Josephus recorded in War of the Jewsthat Titus ordered that the city be hemmed in ‘on every side’ Notice that Titus, like Jesus, saw the encircling of the city as an event sanctioned by God, who inspired the Roman soldiers with a ‘divine fury’ so they might accomplish this ‘great thing.’

That therefore his (Titus’s) opinion was, that…they must build a wall round about the whole city….,if any one should think such a work to be too great…he ought to consider that it is not fit for Romans to undertake any small work, and that none but God himself could with ease accomplish any great thing…. indeed there now came upon the soldiers a certain divine fury…Titus began the wall from the camp of the Assyrians, where his own camp was pitched, and drew it down to the lower parts of Cenopolis; thence it went along the valley of Cedron, to the Mount of Olives; it then bent towards the south, and encompassed the mountain as far as the rock called Peristereon, and that other hill which lies next it, and is over the valley which reaches to Siloam; whence it bended again to the west, and went down to the valley of the Fountain, beyond which it went up again at the monument of Ananus the high priest, and encompassing that mountain where Pompey had formerly pitched his camp, it returned back to the north side of the city, after which it encompassed Herod's monument, and there, on the east, was joined to Titus's own camp, where it began.
(Book III, Ch. VII)

Josephus also recorded that Titus did not merely burn Jerusalem and defile its Temple, but ordered that they should be left exactly as Jesus has foreseen, with ‘not one stone upon another.’ (Titus) gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and Temple...

Jesus stated that this calamity would befall Jerusalem’s inhabitants because they did not know the ‘time of your visitation.’ The coming ‘visitation’ that Jesus was referring to was to be made by someone he called the ‘Son of Man,’ a title used by the prophet Daniel for the Jewish Messiah. While it has been universally believed that Jesus was referring to himself when he used the expression the ‘Son of Man,’ he always speaks of this individual in the third person and never as himself. Jesus repeatedly warned the Jews that during the ‘Son of Man’s’ visitation various disasters, like those he foresaw above, would occur.

Be on the alert therefore, for you do not know the day on which your Lord is coming. Therefore you also must be ready; for it is at a time when you do not expect Him that the Son of Man will come. {Mat 24:42-4}

Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming. {Matt 25: 13}

Though Jesus did not say exactly when the visitation from the ‘Son of Man’ would occur he did state that he would come before the generation alive during his ministry passed away.

So you also, when you see all these signs, may be sure that He is near--at your very door.

I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away without all these things having first taken place. {Mat 24:33-34}

Josephus War of the Jews, V, xii
Josephus War of the Jews VII, 1
Daniel 7:13

As Jews of this era saw a generation as lasting forty years Titus’ destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE fit perfectly into the timeframe Jesus gave for his prophecy. However, while Jesus did accurately predict events from the coming war there was a flaw in his ‘foreknowledge.’ That is, that the person whose ‘visitation’ actually brought about the destruction of Jerusalem was not Jesus, but Titus Flavius. If his prophecies did envision, (as Eusebius and other Church scholars have maintained), events from the coming war between the Romans and the Jews, then the ‘Son of Man’ Jesus warned of seems to have been not himself but Titus, a point that we shall return to.

There was little written between the fifth and fifteenth centuries commenting on the numerous parallels between the events Josephus recorded in War of the Jews and Jesus’ predictions. This is not surprising, as the Church is known to have actively discouraged scriptural analysis during this era. What evidence was left, however, suggests that during the entire Middle-Ages Christians viewed Josephus’ depiction of the war between the Romans and the Jews as proof of Christ’s divinity. Icons, carving on caskets and religious paintings from this era all portrayed the 70CE destruction of Jerusalem as the fulfillment of Jesus’ doomsday prophecies.

The importance of Josephus’ works to Christians during this period can also be gauged by the fact that the Eastern Christian churches of Syria and Armenia actually included his books as part of their handwritten Bible. This pairing also occurred in Europe where, following the invention of the printing press, Latin editions of the Bible included Antiquities and War of the Jews.

Following the Reformation, scholars were able to record their opinions and their writings show that they continued to view the relationship between the NT and War of the Jews as proof of Christ’s divinity. For example, Dr. Thomas Newton, wrote in his 1754 work, Dissertations on the Prophecies (On the Significance of A.D.70):

As a general in the wars (Josephus) must have had an exact knowledge of all transactions, and a Jewish priest he would not relate them with any favour of partiality to the Christian cause. His history was approved by Vespasian and Titus (who ordered it to be published) and by King Agrippa and many others, both Jews and Romans, who were present in those wars. He designed nothing less, and yet as if he had designed nothing more, his history of the Jewish wars may serve as a larger comment on our Saviour's prophecies of the destruction of Jerusalem

Newton’s position was the same as Eusebius. Both scholars believed that Josephus ‘designed nothing less’ than to honestly record the war between the Romans and the Jews. The fact that the events Josephus recorded seemed to be the fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy did not strike them as in any way suspicious. On the contrary, they saw the relationship between the two works as proof of Jesus’ divinity. They were in no way unusual in this understanding, which was held by the majority of Christian scholars until the end of the 19th century. It was a circular system...

Check out http://www.thenewsturmer.com/downloading/roman1_2.pdf

[Hervé]

Posted by panopticon (here)
[...]

So my question here is: What evidence is there that "flash freezing" occurred and what evidence is there for the "explorer club" story?

[...]

Sorry for the lag...

See this post (<---)