Incarceration as a form of vengeance

[Carmen]

Thanks for replying to me. I interact with people here and also with Americans on a horsey forum and they are some of the kindest, most thoughtful people I have ever met. This to me is humanities 'natural' way of being. This dreadful violence is a learned, conditioned 'dog eat dog' response deliberately brought on by television, poverty, drugs, hopelessness and a total lack of quality, loving parenting! our education systems are mind dumbingly boring. No kids are taught how to think for themselves, just how to regurgitate someone else's second or third hand ideas. Kids have a huge, active, creative energy that just has to express, to move physically. They shouldn't be made to sit still for hours on end with no outlet for that energy. Yet kids don't have freedom of movement anymore, they are so often now confined to houses and maybe backyards. Sport remains one of there outlets thank goodness, but actuall freedom to play and express away from home is not an option in many cities and countries. Man, when I think of the freedom I had to roam as a kid!! I think I was very fortunate. I'd be gone all day and my parents wouldn't have a clue where I was, but I was just fine being with my friends or roaming the city or countryside on my pony! Flying kites we made ourselves, making carts and pushing them round the streets. We had just plain fun and the streets were our playground. We also knew and visited all our neighbours. All adults looked out for all kids! I am thankful that I live in the country where my grand kids can roam free and explore nature. No television either! That is such a tool of violent conditioning and mind control and poor wee kids are plonked in front of that in a mindless trance for hours. Talk about a perfect tool to produce violence and criminality!! Well I've had my rant.

[Ernie Nemeth]

Great responses! Although I think that the proper perspective should be remembered.

Firstly, this society is so full of contradictions that holding together a coherent "system" in which people can "thrive" "spins off" an equal amount of injustice. This "injustice" as society sees it is addressed by our laws and upheld by our "justice system". It is easier to incarcerate than to address the inequities built into the "system". If examples are still needed then perhaps Rahkyt's reference to the injustices still visited on the African American is easiest to see. So I refer you to his excellent post above.

Secondly, the proposition to "kill" a "crimminal" as the only recourse to breaking the laws of society is meant as a crude and blunt reminder of those very contradictions inherent in the system. If a person resorts to selling drugs to provide for his or her family because they have no other recourse to lucrative employ, is that worthy of incarceration? If a person steals from a store to feed their children, is that worthy of jail time? Instead, now, in this scenario and with only two options, which do they deserve?

In our society at this present time the first is evil incarnate for providing drugs to people who are vulnerable. The second should simply line up at the food bank or soup kitchen and wait for their handout. Both are guilty of not developing a marketable skill with which to provide for their families - and deserve the full weight of "justice" to descend upon them. They are the "losers", the "lazy", the "degenerates"...the "guilty" - the "flawed". They took the "easy" way out and now must bear the "punishment" their errors require.

And if the second option, that of rehabilitation, is chosen just how far down that rabbit hole are we willing to go? For that rabbit hole is what is discussed in the threads on this site, are they not?

Is it difficult to see that such a discussion, the very need of rehabilitation itself, points to the "dirty secrets" we all gloss over in our worldviews? Wars, economic sanctions (both global and local), the financial system, class, race, creed, color, who you know (or "who you blow"), and a host of other equally inappropriate distinctions that serve as the stratification of the masses results in anything but "justice".

That is what this discusion should focus on. Not how one innocent person might be "killed" but that we are all innocent and deserve better than the fear of torture to keep us toeing the line in a system that is anything but "fair".

Very, very, very few people deserve to be "killed" for their crimes, if any. No one deserves to be imprisoned. And the "system" certainly needs to address its inequities. That is justice. That leads to freedom and liberty for all.

[sdv]

Not how one innocent person might be "killed" but that we are all innocent and deserve better than the fear of torture to keep us toeing the line in a system that is anything but "fair".

I doin't know the answer, but I do sense that this is the 'right' question to ask.

[the_vast_mystery]

The entire criminal justice system functions on mass hypocrisy. It cannot ever be fair or impartial (as humans cannot be 100% fair or impartial, let alone with the police militarization and insider cultures promoted by their "Internal Affairs" style of handling misconduct.) but to function it requires it be sold as both of these things. (So that the governed will trust the system enough to turn over evidence to it and cooperate with it.) Our social institutions are all built on contradictions just like these. Worse, to maintain the contradictions we allow government to propagandize and lie about the virtues of these systems under the guise of "state secrets" and other odious national security language to keep just how dysfunctional our system is out of the public eye so that people will still continue to trust/use it.

This is why I'm sure police misconduct is handled how it is. Because if everyone regularly heard about Law Enforcement's screwups they'd probably never trust it.

[Mulder]

Posted by sdv (here)
I admit that I have no research or evidence to back up this claim, but ... I think that there are 'humans' walking this planet that are without a soul or have something missing (and, yes, 'white' science is putting a lot of effort into trying to find an answer) and that no rehabilitation is possible.


Perhaps the answer is to consult all that we know to evaluate if a person is a threat to society, and if so, to remove that person from society but to uphold our, hopefully, values in treating those people well.

These people without souls are called Psychopaths. They are around 4% of the population & are equally male & female (but female psychopaths are sometimes more underhand e.g. will marry an old man and poison him for his money), according to Thomas Sheridan

[Ki's]

Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
Robert, your suggestion sounds very much like what Britain did centuries ago with its crimminals - send them to Australia! That seems to have worked itself out quite nicely...

It is a case in point, and not far off what I am advocating - either kill them or rehabilitate them for real. What I was trying to suggest is that this is not a question of crimminals, it is a question of our intent. Do we truly want to make things better or do we want to sweep the entire issue under the rug? If the options are "black and white" as I recommend then we are given a choice that reflects our true intentions. If we kill them, what we are really saying is that our system is screwed up and we don't care to fix it. If we try to rehabilitate the criminal we would actually have to address the issues that made them criminals in the first place. And that is the point.

Our system is, and has always been, unfair and inequitable. But, by having a penal system in place we can ignore the problems and go on with "business as usual". At least with a choice of death or rehab we would confront our own demons and deal with issues that for far too long have been ignored.

In america, fully 80% of inmates are from the lower third of the economic spectrum, 70% are non-whites, and 65% (or there-abouts) are drug-related. Only some 30% are there for violent crimes and very few for murder or sex-offenses. Canada is not much better. Here, crime has been dropping for well over a decade - yet the sudden need for "super jails" as espoused by the neo-cons? Makes anyone with a mind that still functions to stop and wonder why.

Most of the time, offenders are those that have come from troubled homes, with parents either physically or psychologically absent. This means that what they lacked was love (primarily), respect, fairness, compassion, mentorship and a firm and understanding role-model. Exactly what is missing in society in general...

Also, where would you suggest we place these unwanted and disruptive elements of society? The question is rhetorical, since there is no place left on earth. Oh, and by the way, if there was such a place a lot of people besides the offenders would opt to join them - I would. At least there you'd know where you stand and you could live a short but authentic life, not the pablum-fed, robot-like, automaton congruity forced upon us in this modern world.

This world is heading towards the gas-chamber of Nazi fame, just like Mulder says, and I'm not paying for the ride. Give me real solutions (freedom) or give me death! (forget who said that, not good with quotes) is an apt way of putting it.

I'm not into vengeance as a deterrent...

"Give me liberty or give me death" Patrick Henry

[Rahkyt]

Not only are the ones without souls called psychopaths, they are also called organic portals.

Great points in your follow up, Ernie. Whew, this is a difficult topic.

In our society at this present time the first is evil incarnate for providing drugs to people who are vulnerable. The second should simply line up at the food bank or soup kitchen and wait for their handout. Both are guilty of not developing a marketable skill with which to provide for their families - and deserve the full weight of "justice" to descend upon them. They are the "losers", the "lazy", the "degenerates"...the "guilty" - the "flawed". They took the "easy" way out and now must bear the "punishment" their errors require.

And if the second option, that of rehabilitation, is chosen just how far down that rabbit hole are we willing to go? For that rabbit hole is what is discussed in the threads on this site, are they not?

That formulation right there? LOL That perspective is the entire difference between Left and Right. I'm glad you started out with "In our society at this present time ... "

Of course you are familiar with all of the counter arguments.

[Ernie Nemeth]

I would like to take this further but I'd be remiss if I did not point out that Songsoftheotherkind has started a thread on heteronomy/autonomy that is exactly what I was pointing towards, in my slow and stumbling manner. here

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...eally&p=507727

[spiritguide]

Just run across this item and it fits this thread's essence......



Makes ya think..

[Ernie Nemeth]

What is this? Gift day?

I am honored by your contribution. Thank you.

So simple, so direct, so profound.

Spiritguide, thanks so much.

Respect - and gratitude,
and Love!

[spiritguide]

Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
What is this? Gift day?

I am honored by your contribution. Thank you.

So simple, so direct, so profound.

Spiritguide, thanks so much.

Respect - and gratitude,
and Love!

Your welcome brother! The ancestors knew and their wisdom is not necessarily bound in a book. It's there for all to see in the Creation which we are all a part of.

[sunnyrap]

Love this discussion because I agree prisons are utterly inhumane, stupid and ultimately valueless.

BTW, I live in a 'prison town', meaning there are 7 prisons here and so are the largest employer in the county. I know many people who have worked for the prisons for many years. They agree that at least 70% of the prisoner population don't really belong there, they are the victims of wrongful conviction or specious 'laws' or just have bad environments to deal with. And these opinions are made by psychiatric professionals. 20-25% are probably very mentally ill and need humane attention, 5-10% are incorrigible and unreachable and prison is the only place they could live without killing or being killed. But prisons as they are mostly administered shouldn't exist. They are simply forced labor camps in which employees get no vacation, no overtime, poor food, the cheapest most uncomfortable housing and marginal health care (though my friends, medical professionals, state some would get no care at all if they weren't there).

(Begin personal rant): I was fuming today because my son got tapped out for a seat belt violation and given a whopping fine. I've been stopped twice for tiny 'infractions' )(one tail light bulb burned out while I was driving, a $175 fine-); not putting on my turn signal at a right on red intersection) when crime is running rampant throughout the county from rape, pedophilia, violence, drug trafficking to increased breakins and armed robbery. Police would rather write easy tickets than risk themselves in the more serious situations --probably because they are inadequately staffed and equipped. They are ramping up efforts to 'catch' and fine violations in order to keep the county funded. This in an area where the employment ads comprise one 4 inch column in the local paper and wages (except for prison and medical workers) are 90% at minimum wage level and unemployment is high. Near as I can tell, the prisons don't contribute to the tax base and there is no other significant industry here besides the medical industry--so police prey on the populace like vampires for their life-blood. The two junior colleges are set up to crank out law enforcement workers, medical support people and clerical people. Period. Not the world I wish to inhabit....(End of rant)

I've now determined a critical mass of us need to master the legal system and fight this situation legally, as a number of astute types have successfully done. It has gotten completely damaging to all of us.

[Maia Gabrial]

I have another idea that might sound better than killing or locking people up. I believe Humanity has faced this very same "punishment" during the cavemen days. And sound was used....

What's worse than being locked up and all your freedoms taken away? IMO having your memories completely erased. No knowledge of who you were. No language between anyone. No technologies or living comforts. And your dna being reduced to 2 strands....Then having to figure out how to survive without ANY of that. This would mean starting from ground zero in everything.... The world would be very hostile in that kind of situation, don't you think? No one would be put to death, unless they failed to fight for their own survival.

In time, IF they changed their ways, they'd get a reprieve....

I'm hoping that most of us will get those reprieves....