So how much transformation is actually wanted, really?

[songsfortheotherkind]

Posted by Wakytweaky (here)
Hi songsfortheotherkind,

The silence that you are referring to in the above reply to ljwheat is all about the silencing of the mind and has nothing to do with actually being silence in relation to communication with other human beings...

It could be enlightening for you to read this so we all get to be on the same page about what it is that is discussed when we are talking about this silence.

Wakytweaky, I am fully cognizant of the concept that lj wheat was putting forward- the concept of 'silence of the mind' is something that has been around for eons and I ran into it as a kid through my *mother's* explorations. She couldn't do it either.

My comments still stand. I do deep trance work in a way that I have developed my Self, which entails engaging in the otherrealms in interesting ways. I get the silence. It's a pass through point, one doesn't *stay* there or all creation and Being ceases. IN physical terms, the permanent experience of 'silent mind' is called catatonia and this doesn't go well. I know, I've nursed catatonic children. They all would have died without the external support of those with engaged minds. Anyone permanently in profound silent mind will also die, because "I need to eat" is a thought.

I really do get it. I just get that it's a pass through point, and when one comes out of it, NOT silence is the next bit. The NEXT bit is where all the space created by silent mind gets to express itself, because the irony of all this is, it's only ONE PART of the 'mind' that is silent in that space, the thin veneer of consciousness: other elements are buzzing like crazy and connecting in all sorts of brilliant ways with the *really* interesting realms that would be available *consciously* if individuals weren't so attached to their precious ideas about such things.

I'm not so attached to precious ideas. I live with a mind far more fluid that most I encounter, which frequently drives the others nuts. You might want to have a look at some of the things I've written regarding my experiences of multiple selves and sliding realms, so that *you* get an understanding of the individual you're writing to before assuming that I need elucidation on some point. I commented that I find the silence philosophy disinteresting- to then suggest I might want to be 'enlightened' about it (which is another loaded term in itself) is heteronomy: asking me would I care to engage in such a conversation is not.

This thread is a discussion regarding autonomy versus heteronomy, NOT yet another hijacking into a thread about 'silent mind'- I have noticed how often any thread that opens up new thought has the silent minders swooping in to stifle both the exploration AND the conversation. The continued existence of the Pub thread is due to my ability to rebut any philosophy of death fascination. Silent mind, taken to its ultimate expression of frequency, is a death of the creative expression and power: it is a WAY POINT, *NOT* a destination.

Those who know the Pub know this one makes both my fangs and horns gleam. If it is silent mind as a destination that you want to discuss, there is the spirituality thread to do it in and quite a few that would be happy to discuss it.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Posted by Swan (here)

Posted by songsfortheotherkind (here)
So talk to me about some of the favorite words- love, relationship, connection, light- through the lens of autonomy and sui generis. Show me the multiple lenses of the hologram in how these things operate within this framework. I would like to go deeper with all this.

Ok, Here goes…

My experience of Connection and No Mind - so far

One day in the play park six years ago, I suddenly realized that on some level I was communicating with a nearby tree. Or rather, the tree was communicating with me. A short time after, I found out I was pregnant, and I thought – so that was what the tree was telling me.

I hung out with the tree, and other trees throughout my pregnancy, enjoying the new connection.

A few years later this feeling of connection expanded and I found myself experiencing a connection with the wind, the sun, the sea, the sky, the rain…

I can only describe this experience as blissful. In fact, it was so overwhelming I honestly began to question my sanity.

I am beginning to suspect that the differences in expression with this are based on my lifelong awareness of being Other and the way those in the human realms experience these states.

I am going to express this from my Otherkind Self.

The states that you are describing here are not no mind, they are part of the experience of a Being that is connected to multiple expressions and streams of various 'realities' that are part of the evolution Signal that has been suppressed here in this current reality due to the lowering of the frequency. This state is a constant background state for all Otherkind. We do not experience it as an extraordinary state but rather like a background energetic interaction that is ceaseless. It is the human frequency stumbling across it in astonishment and the virus needing to couch it in mystical terms that has transformed a natural part of the frequency into an 'altered state'. It is also why the virus transformed this natural frequency state into base religions that involved focus on sex and food, feasting and orgying, to describe and express the natural richness of this frequency: it took the beautiful and turned it into the mundane and profane, which is what it does with all Otherkind expressions as a way to push this awareness out of the everyday and into the fringe elements of 'flaky hippydom' or 'new age wankery' or whatever. I'm utterly aware of this. I am *also* a Being that has constant interaction with the Otherrealms and have had since before birth. The state you describe is one I live in as a dual thread of Being. It sometimes makes me look really really weird, because this interaction is actually not silent, it's a stunning Song of energetic and awareness that is simply being sung on a level of awareness that most humans are utterly oblivious to.

You describe the tree communicating with you- this is not 'silent mind', this is the tree communicating with you. Just because energy doesn't stroll up and say 'why hello, lovely day, want to talk about life, the universe and everything?' doesn't mean profound and complex communication isn't going on. Human words are 'blah blah blah blah blah narrow frequency narrow frequency throw no pictures connect to nothing in the expanded realms' for an Otherkind- I've written elsewhere regarding my internal agitation at experiencing the vast majority as being able to 'throw' no pictures at all except a fuzzy and agitated 'white screen', which is one of the reasons I strangled down my ability to receive pictures as a child and used to go through crowds with my hands over my ears, trying to drown out the 'noise'. 'Silent mind' my nanna's ample butt. I've been around those practising 'silent mind' and have experienced it as little more than personal relief from the jangling human signal. They're still utterly deaf to anything else though.

This state you are describing is the beginning of the communication that goes on between the realms and in part is one of the skills involved with sliding between the realms. I'm not giving anything away in saying that, the virus has long tried to get through those and failed because it can't be faked- you either 'speak' it, which means connecting with it in a particular way, or you don't. It's a rich, ancient language that is virus free on a deep enough level. Perhaps now it can be understood that having it called 'silent' anything is irritating to an Otherkind.

All these human parameters expressed as 'truth' when they are nothing more than the heteronomy of species dominance. This is the same as the heteronomy of mammal dominance as a form of prejudice against those such as 'reptilian' or 'insectoid' forms. My Otherkind nature is secondary in this discussion to my diamond eyed dissection of the heteronomy in ALL its forms. Humans speak, live and operate from the perspective that their way of Being is supreme, absolute, the pinnacle of the expression of Life.

It really, really isn't. It's just ONE in a sea of infinite. The 'silent mind' concept is flawed in this regard because it makes both a boatload of assumptions and presents a perspective is Globalism. It simply is not.

In saying these things I am not suggesting that you are one of those individuals that have the heteronomy perspective intentionally or whatever; this is where the exploration has taken me. This is why I constantly orient the perspective *back to that of the Singularity* rather than anything else- some of the most exquisite *physically incarnate* Beings I have encountered are *insect like* and have no heartbeat, breath, sensation of body fluids moving about, no sensation of 'warm' or anything remotely like a mammal- and it's initially challenging to share the physical space with them because ALL the internal biomarkers of 'alive' disappear abruptly. Yet the nuance with which they experience Life is stunning and when I came back had me sobbing at the beauty of it all. My OWN, *personal* experiences of these things inform my perspective of the heteronomy as it is practiced here.

Thank you for your sharing of your experience. It has brought my own awareness to the surface of my skin this morning and I am entwined with that signal in a much deeper way, always blissful.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Posted by mountain_jim (here)
While looking up for a different thread, I found these Terence McKenna quotes I thought perhaps relevant to this one. I met Terence, and his books (I have Food of the Gods, True Hallucinations), writings, and spoken word rants were worthwhile to me in many areas, including the autonomy of one's consciousness and inalienable right to experiment on same.

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quot...erence_McKenna

You met him? Tell me, did he have the 'Other' signal buried in there? I absolutely love these expressions and my Being feasted on them for my energetic breakfast: thank you so much for sharing these, they make my energy dance.

[spiritguide]

Autonomous is the cutting edge, the ability to be out front, to be an agent of change vs. reacting to it. IMO The unseen autonomy in the universe is the force that improves conditions naturally. We need only focus on our own autonomy, for it is when we achieve this that we realise that -isms are only barriers to that goal.

[Fred Steeves]

Posted by songsfortheotherkind (here)

I'm not so attached to precious ideas. I live with a mind far more fluid that most I encounter, which frequently drives the others nuts. You might want to have a look at some of the things I've written regarding my experiences of multiple selves and sliding realms, so that *you* get an understanding of the individual you're writing to before assuming that I need elucidation on some point. I commented that I find the silence philosophy disinteresting- to then suggest I might want to be 'enlightened' about it (which is another loaded term in itself) is heteronomy: asking me would I care to engage in such a conversation is not.

Hey, Songsy...Care to take that one back?

[mountain_jim]

Posted by songsfortheotherkind (here)

Posted by mountain_jim (here)
While looking up for a different thread, I found these Terence McKenna quotes I thought perhaps relevant to this one. I met Terence, and his books (I have Food of the Gods, True Hallucinations), writings, and spoken word rants were worthwhile to me in many areas, including the autonomy of one's consciousness and inalienable right to experiment on same.

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quot...erence_McKenna

You met him? Tell me, did he have the 'Other' signal buried in there? I absolutely love these expressions and my Being feasted on them for my energetic breakfast: thank you so much for sharing these, they make my energy dance.

His signals were pretty 'Other' to me

His speech mannerisms and cadences are different from anyone else I have heard - you really should seek out some recordings of him talking to get a feel for that.

I met him at his Magic Maui Weekend event, 2/25/-27, 1994, -

Raving In the Light of the Third Millennium - Language About the Unspeakable

I was on the island visiting a friend (free place to stay saves alot there) and attended the one day lecture when I saw it advertised in the local paper. I understand the folks there for the whole event tripped with Terence on the Beach on some still-legal substance, but not certain of that.

Here is a link to Alien Dreamtime, a multi-media event (3 Raves, 2 Interregnums - states Terence) with Terence speaking (DMT experience and other stuff) and music by SpaceTime Continuum, Stephen Kent on didgeridoo, a performance in San Fran 2/93, a video I bought, perhaps when I bought his other books he signed for me after the talk.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...8051948678069#

(I ccould not get the vid using google tags to appear right - below is first 10 minutes of a youtube upload of same.

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru0W3x9EEDM

There is a DMT rap in here somewhere:

And it occurred to me, that these must be holographic viral projections from a non-atomous continuum ...

[Carmen]

Like I said, if a person has not experienced something directly and understood it, they do not 'know' and often 'assume'. I do not mean to pull this discussion off base,songs, but describing the silent mind as 'catatonic' is way off base. Where, clearmindedness and silent mind fit into this topic is that without autonomy, without Sui generis, silent mind is not possible. My silent mind is not bland and dull and dead, it is chock full of possibility, of energy, of passion, just waiting to fulfill my next creative endeavour. And that knowing is not just airy fairy new age stuff, it's the stuff of quantum physics, enfolded and unfolded universe, the stuff of the American Indian races who speak of the tonal and the nagual.

But, anyway it's your thread, I'll just go bugger off and play somewhere else.

Actually, I have one more thing to add as far as heteromney,( you know, that big word!) where we are dependant on outside authority. When we bring back our power and quit hanging off the words and knowing of others, there is a definite energy transfer back to us, we feel it, in the body and around us, and correspondingly, the ones that were 'feeding off' our power, lose it! They are disempowered by our lack of energy attention. Ones who are in their own Sui generis fill themselves with creative life force, spiritual energy, call it what you will. And, there is no separation of the material from the spiritual. It's all spiritual, whether you realise it or not.

[Antagenet]

Posted by songsfortheotherkind (here)
I get the silence. It's a pass through point, one doesn't *stay* there or all creation and Being ceases.

Are you speaking for yourself or all of us? Maybe it's a pass through point for YOU but not for others. Perhaps you fall prey to the heteronomous urge
and need to be called on it. Your ideas are brilliant and you are a real word smith but I dont see you validating others realities, I dont see you reaching
out to affirm OTHERS autonomy. You come across as wanting to be right and ever better than ah those lower life forms, as you seem to feel so superior to..
the humans. I am sick of watching you trash others attempts at expressing what they go through with an arrogant attitude. I think what you are about is
living in a vacuum where your emotional impact on others is something you may not consider or care about.

[another bob]

For those who have not experienced the silence behind the mind (their own original nature), they may get confused and think that silent mind means no thoughts. If that were true, then rocks would be sages, eh. LOL! Awareness itself is the silence behind the mind, which has also been described as the light behind the mind. It is not an attainment, nor can it come and go depending on causes and conditions, or whether or not one believes themselves to be other than human and privvy to special capacities, frequencies, or signals. It is the fundamental basis. All arises and dissolves within it, and yet it cannot be characterized as either existent or non-existent, since it transcends dualities. It has nothing to do with thinking or not thinking (which are mere brain phenomena) -- abitrary, transient, and of no lasting significance except as modifications of consciousness. If I had to use one sentence only, I would say,"It is YOU!"

[Eram]

Posted by songsfortheotherkind (here)

Posted by Wakytweaky (here)
Hi songsfortheotherkind,

The silence that you are referring to in the above reply to ljwheat is all about the silencing of the mind and has nothing to do with actually being silence in relation to communication with other human beings...

It could be enlightening for you to read this so we all get to be on the same page about what it is that is discussed when we are talking about this silence.

Wakytweaky, I am fully cognizant of the concept that lj wheat was putting forward- the concept of 'silence of the mind' is something that has been around for eons and I ran into it as a kid through my *mother's* explorations. She couldn't do it either.

My comments still stand. I do deep trance work in a way that I have developed my Self, which entails engaging in the otherrealms in interesting ways. I get the silence. It's a pass through point, one doesn't *stay* there or all creation and Being ceases. IN physical terms, the permanent experience of 'silent mind' is called catatonia and this doesn't go well. I know, I've nursed catatonic children. They all would have died without the external support of those with engaged minds. Anyone permanently in profound silent mind will also die, because "I need to eat" is a thought.

I really do get it. I just get that it's a pass through point, and when one comes out of it, NOT silence is the next bit. The NEXT bit is where all the space created by silent mind gets to express itself, because the irony of all this is, it's only ONE PART of the 'mind' that is silent in that space, the thin veneer of consciousness: other elements are buzzing like crazy and connecting in all sorts of brilliant ways with the *really* interesting realms that would be available *consciously* if individuals weren't so attached to their precious ideas about such things.

I'm not so attached to precious ideas. I live with a mind far more fluid that most I encounter, which frequently drives the others nuts. You might want to have a look at some of the things I've written regarding my experiences of multiple selves and sliding realms, so that *you* get an understanding of the individual you're writing to before assuming that I need elucidation on some point. I commented that I find the silence philosophy disinteresting- to then suggest I might want to be 'enlightened' about it (which is another loaded term in itself) is heteronomy: asking me would I care to engage in such a conversation is not.

This thread is a discussion regarding autonomy versus heteronomy, NOT yet another hijacking into a thread about 'silent mind'- I have noticed how often any thread that opens up new thought has the silent minders swooping in to stifle both the exploration AND the conversation. The continued existence of the Pub thread is due to my ability to rebut any philosophy of death fascination. Silent mind, taken to its ultimate expression of frequency, is a death of the creative expression and power: it is a WAY POINT, *NOT* a destination.

Those who know the Pub know this one makes both my fangs and horns gleam. If it is silent mind as a destination that you want to discuss, there is the spirituality thread to do it in and quite a few that would be happy to discuss it.

Hi songsfortheotherkind,

No insult or talking down intended from my part.
I'm sorry you seem to take it that way.

I was just pointing something out that is obvious to anyone who experienced the stilling of the mind.
No catatonia can be found there, quite the opposite to be true.

No Hijacking of the tread going on here as well from my observations.

I wish I could find a way to come together on this, but it feels to me that it would be a hard nut to crack.
Either way, I felt compelled to point this out to you and others, because there are people who will read this thread and might get wrong ideas about this subject.

[songsfortheotherkind]

/headtilt/ Why would you think I wanted you to bugger off? If you want to that's fine, I'm just wondering why you would conclude this.

My silent mind is not bland and dull and dead, it is chock full of possibility, of energy, of passion, just waiting to fulfill my next creative endeavour. And that knowing is not just airy fairy new age stuff, it's the stuff of quantum physics, enfolded and unfolded universe, the stuff of the American Indian races who speak of the tonal and the nagual.

I utterly resonate with this. I write about this constantly. I live in this space. I have never suggested that it WAS airy fairy new age stuff.

Actually, I have one more thing to add as far as heteromney,( you know, that big word!) where we are dependant on outside authority. When we bring back our power and quit hanging off the words and knowing of others, there is a definite energy transfer back to us, we feel it, in the body and around us, and correspondingly, the ones that were 'feeding off' our power, lose it! They are disempowered by our lack of energy attention. Ones who are in their own Sui generis fill themselves with creative life force, spiritual energy, call it what you will. And, there is no separation of the material from the spiritual. It's all spiritual, whether you realise it or not.

Yes, it's all spiritual. I experience this, it's always been my personal perspective. To me the evolution frequency is utterly spiritual and the reasons for taking back one's power- the starvation of the controllers- is one of the major reasons I'm passionate about autonomy.

Are you writing from the perspective that I don't experience these things? Because if you are, then I'm curious as to how you got that perception when I bang on about it so the degree that I annoy others with it.

If you want to explore and remedy the temporary mutual glitch in communication, I'm happy to do that.

[Carmen]

We do speak the same language you and I. I've just been rather confused the way you write about the silent mind. It seems to quite upset you and I find that confusing. It was such a relief to me when all my constant inner dialogue shut the f--k up so could get to the Real Stuff.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Posted by Wakytweaky (here)
No insult or talking down intended from my part. I'm sorry you seem to take it that way.

None taken. This isn't me being snarky at all, it's me attempting to be clear about the particular subject. Autonomy is ridiculously easy to lose when certain language is used and I am endeavouring to point out the buried heteronomy in particular language. I am not an expert at it by any means- I live in a particular kind of mindspace and am fully aware that I can also inadvertently fall into a subtle element of it my Self, which is why I use triangulation, the multiple perspective. There is buried heteronomy in the language you used in the comment. I recognise that my comments regarding hijacking could be taken as snarky *and* my comments still stand: I have observed many threads that open up a discussion about unrelated topics be swallowed up by philosophical entanglement and convolution; frequently the 'silent/ no mind' platform is the vehicle used to achieve this.

I was just pointing something out that is obvious to anyone who experienced the stilling of the mind.

I have experienced the stilling of the mind, in various ways. *MY* experience of it is different. Is this possible to accept? Is it possible that 'stilling of the mind' is a very very different experience to different Beings? And if *this* is so, is it therefore possible that saying 'this is the way it is' or 'this is what it looks like' in a *globalising* fashion is actually an expression of heteronomy? Even if it IS unintended? Are these things possible? Because that is what I am actually exploring here, the blind spot that has been cultivated socially to how subtle yet powerful heteronomy is exercised towards one another on a *daily basis*.

I say again, it's NOT personal. It's the heteronomy I am looking at, not the individual. I have no interest in saying 'you are a twit for thinking that' because I rarely think it those terms and an individual would have to really bring it right to my door for me to even move into that space with them. I'm a social hacker, married to a brilliant geek, in a family of various kinds of hackers- with hackers, the focus is on the particular bug, not the computer; in my realm, this means I'm focused on the issue, not the individual- if I was focused on the individual I'd be running hetereonomy.

No catatonia can be found there, quite the opposite to be true.

Then it is something *other* than silence, so as a linguist I'm asking "what are you actually talking about here? Because from MY perspective you are speaking about an altered state of CONSCIOUSNESS, which I experience in all kinds of ways, none of which are silent as *I* know silence to be, in *my* realms. So if you're talking to an *Otherkind* they are going to have a brow furrowed and puzzled response to your expressing things this way."

From this point there are a number of options.

1. Ignore the differences that are being expressed. Continue on with the same explanation and perspective. Assume that those who have a different perspective just don't get what one is talking about and that they just need to hear the explanation repeatedly and they'll get it, or they simply aren't able to have the experience and therefore can be dismissed. This option can also include factoring in various levels of spiritual/intellectual superiority.

2. Consider the possibility that there is lurking heteronomy in the expression. Hold up the ideas to the hologram and ask some interesting questions about the whole subject, including 'does my expression of my perspective hold the idea that others cannot have different experiences and expressions of this subject? Are there more useful ways of describing this particular thing so that it becomes one possible experience in a wide spectrum of experience rather than THE experience?'

Look at the language. Look at the way the language is used. I have had nearly 50 years on this planet and look at the misunderstandings my concepts and expressions create because of the [personal interpretations that are being made about the *way* I'm saying things, yet *I* am striving to communicate as clearly as I can. I am constantly watched from the Otherrealms and many ask me 'why do you keep trying to do this?' because they cannot stand to engage in any way the convoluted language spoken by the dominant paradigm. I don't use my voice in those realms for that very reason. I know the language of those realms and if anyone is interested in the cross realms communication, that's what I speak. If there is no interest in that, then that's fair enough. I'll be totally ok with that. Until I have had it definitively stated to me that it isn't possible then I will continue.

No Hijacking of the tread going on here as well from my observations.

I readily see that it would have been different if I'd written 'I am speaking pre-emptively here, because I have seen this happen before, and I have no wish for this thread to be hijacked in the same way'. I see that my original phrasing can be taken personally although no such intention was there. I do keep reiterating 'it's not *personal*, it's not *personal*, but that doesn't seem to be effective, so I'll explore other ways: to me, the autonomy discussion is far more important than my own situation.

I wish I could find a way to come together on this, but it feels to me that it would be a hard nut to crack.

Some of the things I am is a linguist and a social hacker. I have no doubt at all that with the pieces on the table and us holding them up and asking interesting questions, anything can be transformed. Some individuals think I'm an idiot for having this perspective, but I get that.

Either way, I felt compelled to point this out to you and others, because there are people who will read this thread and might get wrong ideas about this subject.

The compulsion itself is curious. The concern that others might get the wrong idea about the subject is the foundation of external authority- why the concern? What will happen if others HAVE these ideas *you* think are wrong? What happens if their experience is utterly and diametrically different from yours- does this means *theirs* is 'wrong'? Or yours? IS there a 'wrong'? Or is there simply infinitely *different* experiences and the infinite possibility/autonomous paradigm needs a different language to fully express this way of Being?

Can you see what I'm doing? What my focus and intention is? Because I really really don't do this personally. My mind really isn't interested in engaging that way. I want what works in terms of undoing the heteronomy.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Posted by Carmen (here)
We do speak the same language you and I. I've just been rather confused the way you write about the silent mind. It seems to quite upset you and I find that confusing. It was such a relief to me when all my constant inner dialogue shut the f--k up so could get to the Real Stuff.

Fuzzy language makes anything that much more difficult and fuzzy language is what I was getting frustrated with. I'm looking for a language platform from which to start the exploration, and that is fraught enough, let alone getting into the concepts I *really* want to be exploring in company. Perhaps I need to be more text book like in my explanations of where the fuzzy is coming up for me and where the concepts are bothering me? But I've found that individuals also seem to have a problem with my talking *that* way too. It is a conundrum.

*grinning at you, sideways eyed* Maybe the kinesiologist was right and I'm simply too much of an anomoly here, that the films will be the best way to do things: just put the ideas out there the way they work *to me* and leave others to argue the details amongst themselves. I'm not entirely convinced that the struggle to communicate in this realm is one I'd be best giving up- this is part of the continued personal experiment.

I resonate with the inner dialogue shutting up- that was an expression of the virus that took me awhile to dissolve, and I went a different route with that one that led me to some true treasure when it came to getting a bead on some shneaky shneaky stuff the virus was doing. This was useful. It's not everyone's way and that's utterly perfect. It's not a p!ssing competition, that's for sure.

It's always, always about the evolution signal, as I experience it, for me.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Posted by Antagenet (here)

Posted by songsfortheotherkind (here)
I get the silence. It's a pass through point, one doesn't *stay* there or all creation and Being ceases.

Are you speaking for yourself or all of us? Maybe it's a pass through point for YOU but not for others.

There is absolutely that. And I repeatedly insert 'this is MY experience' into my writing. And I uphold the experience of others while reiterating 'for you, this is YOUR experience, not mine.

Perhaps you fall prey to the heteronomous urge and need to be called on it.

I know full well I can get entangled, I've repeatedly invited the triangulation. What you're currently doing isn't triangulation because you've pulled one sentence out of a whole post and suggested that I'm telling others how things are. I'm interested in what you would have considered appropriate here- do I need to preface every utterance and expression with 'in my perspective/experience'? Is there a more useful way to discuss concepts that are going to be challenging at the best of times while *not* having to preface every sentence with 'ime' (experience)? Do you have suggestions, or are you content to just abuse and judge me?

Your ideas are brilliant and you are a real word smith but I dont see you validating others realities,

I don't validate: validation is heteronomy in action. That would indicate that either I thought a) that I was superior to them and therefore had some kind of stamp of approval to bestow upon them- and there are others who are connected to me that would promptly kick my arse if I tried that one or b) that the individual was feeling uncertain or somehow in need of some kind of bolstering and I was just the individual to give them such, (although in truth that feels like it's heading back to a to me) or some other rubbishy and rationalising convolution that ultimately is about me feeling superior to others.

I dont see you reaching out to affirm OTHERS autonomy.

That's because an autonomous individual doesn't need anyone else's affirmation. Not relying on external validation or affirmation is part of autonomy. I don't do either. I constantly write that I uphold their experience and then point out the heteronomy in their expression of that experience. This is a really important distinction. I can make this distinction. Sometimes, it's true, I'll come across some expression in the main forum that is so mindbogglingly mired in the controller paradigm that I will let my dismissal express itself, and this is about the ridiculousness of the idea, not the individual. Sometimes the separation of the two may seem blurry if I'm not excruciatingly careful with my language: I have a far ranging vocabulary and using it seems to create the assumption that I am arrogant. It happens. I spent two decades making my speech as simple as possible to put others at their ease and it only worked to create massive distress in me and it didn't ease others at all, so I've happily resumed my way of expressing my Self.

That's part of *my* autonomy.

You come across as wanting to be right and ever better than ah those lower life forms, as you seem to feel so superior to.. the humans. I am sick of watching you trash others attempts at expressing what they go through with an arrogant attitude. I think what you are about is living in a vacuum where your emotional impact on others is something you may not consider or care about.

This is entirely subjective and expressed as an absolute. I'm not sure what your purpose and intention with it is- if you were intending to simply express your opinion, then you have expressed it clearly. If you were expecting me to leap to my defense, *shrugs*. This does not in any way imply agreement on my part with your analysis, it's simply a disinterest in defense. If you wanted to engage me in a discussion, a different way of phrasing this might have been more useful; as it is, it's just heteronomy to me and I get how that works.

f you actually *do* want to discuss your subjective experience of me, is there a way you can frame your concerns so that I actually have something to constructively and co-creatively respond to? Your current method appears to me to be a crude attempt to emotionally trigger me into self defense, which isn't something I engage in.

[modwiz]

Songs, I do believe your attempts might meet less initial resistance if there were a few more examples of how the autonomous concept works in the highest courts. I'm not sure if that is possible but the self interest would lower some defenses. The enormity of your undertaking in a written format is complicated by the format. This subject would be challenging in a living room setting, in real time with body English and eye cues available.

The lack of autonomy as a concept and the deep programming of heteronomy make using a vested interest like the legal system a way to get people emotionally enrolled in the discussion. The current intellectual tack only will immediately become embroiled in emotional clouding because emotional approach to living is how most proceed. Even the coolest amongst us are still able to get tripped up now and again.

The written format does have the advantage of a record of what one puts out into the discussion. Verbal discussions are often rife with conversational amnesia.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)

Posted by songsfortheotherkind (here)

I'm not so attached to precious ideas. I live with a mind far more fluid that most I encounter, which frequently drives the others nuts. You might want to have a look at some of the things I've written regarding my experiences of multiple selves and sliding realms, so that *you* get an understanding of the individual you're writing to before assuming that I need elucidation on some point. I commented that I find the silence philosophy disinteresting- to then suggest I might want to be 'enlightened' about it (which is another loaded term in itself) is heteronomy: asking me would I care to engage in such a conversation is not.

Hey, Songsy...Care to take that one back?

Hey Fred, care to elucidate as to what you're looking at/ what your point is? I am genuinely not sure what you're seeing.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Posted by modwiz (here)
Songs, I do believe your attempts might meet less initial resistance if there were a few more examples of how the autonomous concept works in the highest courts. I'm not sure if that is possible but the self interest would lower some defenses. The enormity of your undertaking in a written format is complicated by the format. This subject would be challenging in a living room setting, in real time with body English and eye cues available.

The lack of autonomy as a concept and the deep programming of heteronomy make using a vested interest like the legal system a way to get people emotionally enrolled in the discussion. The current intellectual tack only will immediately become embroiled in emotional clouding because emotional approach to living is how most proceed. Even the coolest amongst us are still able to get tripped up now and again.

The written format does have the advantage of a record of what one puts out into the discussion. Verbal discussions are often rife with conversational amnesia.

This is precisely what has been occurring to me this evening as I have been sitting here considering things. You are right- it's much easier to demonstrate concepts in the neutral rather than by trying to demonstrate things in real time with the language. I forget that others may not be as comfortable or familiar with self hacking as what I am to the degree that I do it: as I described in my recounting of my B12 experience, I do do things that could be interpreted as pretty harrowing in order to get the information I want. A bit of the Bene Gesserit, perhaps...

Thanks for the triangulation, it was synchronous. *grins across at you from the edge of the map, pointing out to the dark places* There's my territory- fortunately I seem to be ok with falling over cliffs and into bogs.

[Fred Steeves]

Posted by songsfortheotherkind (here)

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)

Posted by songsfortheotherkind (here)

I'm not so attached to precious ideas. I live with a mind far more fluid that most I encounter, which frequently drives the others nuts. You might want to have a look at some of the things I've written regarding my experiences of multiple selves and sliding realms, so that *you* get an understanding of the individual you're writing to before assuming that I need elucidation on some point. I commented that I find the silence philosophy disinteresting- to then suggest I might want to be 'enlightened' about it (which is another loaded term in itself) is heteronomy: asking me would I care to engage in such a conversation is not.

Hey, Songsy...Care to take that one back?

Hey Fred, care to elucidate as to what you're looking at/ what your point is? I am genuinely not sure what you're seeing.

Oh, sorry Songs. I found your statement there to be arrogant and condescending, and was trying to point that out without having to say so.

Cheers,
Fred

[Mad Hatter]

Mad Hatter dons his lateral cap for a bit of a tease,

Hmm...

Posted by another bob (here)
If that were true, then rocks would be sages, eh.

IIRC an experiment (apparently repeatable) shows that life can be brought forth from the core of rocks (in this case granite) and is not all life concious to some degree or other.

So the rock has two neurons but you got a couple of billion, now let's factor in some of that fourth dimensional stuff (time)...

You get a hundred years if your lucky but the rock gets what? 13 Billion and counting!!

Tortoise vs hare anyone? Gotta love those assumptions.

'Here I sit, the mountain and I
Until only the mountain remains'
Li Po

So what was that about sages again...

Please return to normal programming.