So how much transformation is actually wanted, really?

[songsfortheotherkind]

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)

Posted by songsfortheotherkind (here)

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)

Posted by songsfortheotherkind (here)

I'm not so attached to precious ideas. I live with a mind far more fluid that most I encounter, which frequently drives the others nuts. You might want to have a look at some of the things I've written regarding my experiences of multiple selves and sliding realms, so that *you* get an understanding of the individual you're writing to before assuming that I need elucidation on some point. I commented that I find the silence philosophy disinteresting- to then suggest I might want to be 'enlightened' about it (which is another loaded term in itself) is heteronomy: asking me would I care to engage in such a conversation is not.

Hey, Songsy...Care to take that one back?

Hey Fred, care to elucidate as to what you're looking at/ what your point is? I am genuinely not sure what you're seeing.

Oh, sorry Songs. I found your statement there to be arrogant and condescending, and was trying to point that out without having to say so. Cheers, Fred

Oh, ok- subjectivity embedded judgementalism. There's as many subjective perspectives as there are individuals. Given that you've said this as a statement, I take it that you are simply wanting to express your opinion? In that case, intention achieved, although that does surprise me as I thought you had a different approach to communication- I hadn't experienced you as someone who was into making such assumptions and statements.

[mountain_jim]

The last page was a lot to take in with my morning first cup of coffee. And the blue jays are outside my window, pilfering the blueberries as I write.

(back from clapping at 'em)

Some of my earliest readings of influence were the Carlos Castenada books, and Don Juan's requirement that one must Stop the Internal Dialogue (as mentioned already in thread) to get past the limitations and restrictions of ego and a constricted view of reality and possibility.

I think those participating in this thread are expressing aspects of this from many methods, perspectives, and experiences, hopefully we can understand and encourage this diversity and still move onward productively toward's identifying and rooting out the embedded heteronomy control programming, an effort I appreciate, where it really appears to arise.

[ljwheat]

Since this is a public forum, and weather or not--- I be totally clueless-- is not my quest or direction in posting my quarry at your feet, feed back or validation in how I fit in all this word play has left me in shambles in my attempt to show you my little part of the world I see into,-- I don’t like getting slapped around with words I don’t fully understand. Makes me feel stupid and deflamed.

I guess I’m like the aliens in the movie “Galaxy Quest” when Tim Allen as the Captain was told to explain it to the builders of your now captured space ship what a TV show is---" explain it to him as you would a little child. "

My hole attempt here at Avalon is to clarify in my, being what the hells going on-- in this 3D playground-- who has the right words, the real words,-- shell shock from words boggles my mind to no end, after finding out that 90 % of words can have other meanings like rocks people hide behind when brushing someone off. “lie’s” true foundational words seem to be in short supply. Here is a story I shared on my own thread “Who is it” at the age of 2 yrs. I had a experience, and at that age didn’t have all this mumbo jumbo word play, legal courts of words and concepts, I was two. Please remember that. EGO less.

So here we go.
My earliest encounter with (silent watcher) insert any label your comfortable with, as what I felt was not a definition or words.

I became in an instant the feeling -- was complete -- all knowing.-- Define less -- at the crisp age of 2 = 2 - ½ yrs of age before, indoctrination, domestication, pet slave to consumerism, forced vaccinated, coursed induced monkey see monkey do society.

Two older brothers 7 yrs older than I. Mother sick all the time self imposed sympathy seeker. Dad works 8 to 5 factory worker, living on a small vegetable truck farm 5 Acer strip of land. Veggie stand at road side for extra cash.

Pretty much left to my own devices no one wanted me around just to young for the families well established life style’s when I came along. Except for my best friend “BOOTS” collie dog. "We did everything together."

One day my brother’s at school, mom sick in bed, dad at work, Me and my friend decided to go to the back of the property were the tree line started. This is were there was a short path back to the sand pits. An area filled with sand doon’s and several natural ponds, spring fed.

The fields were freshly plowed on a sunny spring day, off to the sand ponds with my friend “BOOTS” I’m really not sure how long we were back there playing in the water, but at one spot along the bank squatting down watching some tad pole’s.

I reached down and scooped one up in a little pool of water in my little hand it was small in small hands.

Anyway I started to feel it moving in my hand, and feeling it suck in water to breath. I turned it over and could see threw the transparent belly skin its little tinny heart beating, and its stomach and lower intestines,-- flipping its tail, and righting itself, I was looking into its tinny eye’s --- at that moment-- everything-- in my little world stopped --noises,-- thinking --(not much at that age)-- I was aware of myself holding myself-- close enough to see me looking down at myself --as a tad pole,-- and the tad pole looking at-- and holding its self all at the same moment in time,-- I turned and looked at “Boots” and I was looking at me holding a tad pole looking at me from “Boots”eyes.

Standing up seeing my self stand up from two different angles. WOW self seeing self, seeing self. all at the same moment seperit and as all oneself.

Then out of the sky there came the sound of a swish at the same time lighting pain on the back side of my little leg’s.

Mom noticing I was no were to be found went looking and saw a pair of little shoe prints next to four paw prints leading towards the back of the property in the freshly plowed field. Pausing long enough to rip a branch off a weeping willow tree, that definition is correct i might add. Switched me all the way back to the house.

Now that I think back on it, why didn’t “boots” worn me my mother was approaching. Was “Boots” caught up in the same out of space time awareness as me and the tad pole, totally mesmerized? Till impacted LOL.

Anyway that was my earliest encounter with well YOU try and put a name on it, I’m still trying, the feeling into and the feeling looking back into myself from myself as a tad pole and as a dog. Twilight Zone stuff right?

And in the 50’s and 60’s you didn’t talk about stuff like that, at least I didn’t. -dont speak unless spoken too and all that plus my vocabulary wasn't much a 2.

So I know first hand-- that-- I am everything,- in everything,- being everything all at the same time. There are no words as it was a feeling and seeing omnipresent plural-- like falling,--- no more like moving into or on itself-- expanding-- no sense of boundary’s-- I didn’t know these terms back then and can only apply them now in retrospect.

Reliving that few moments, I have to let go of all the crap of this world and its endless noise. But when it pops and I enter that silent feeling zone. My head rushes out of me, that sense of falling starts to happen and my analytical mind ego pulls me back more offen than i want.

This is why I joined Avalon and started so many treads pointing at this --- this -- I don’t know-- wind --I become --that can move in all directions at once, feel everything at once, know everything at once. Words run from this --feeling-- or becoming when it begins to happen. And am left empty handed yet again.

I was the see’er, No I mean I am Seeing, always have and will. I am there --and yet in the world. Koo koo stuff right? John xxx

[onawah]

Speaking of Don Juan, I remember something from one of Castenada's books where he brought up some point to Don Juan from an Eastern (perhaps Buddhist, though I don't recall) point of view, and Don Juan basically said that that viewpoint was based in the Tonal, not the Nagual, and therefore was not useful to him as a warrior.

I think it might be useful in this discussion to acknowledge the differences in spiritual perspectives between the Eastern approach and the approach of the more indigenous shamans of the West, who seek not to escape the material realm so much as to explore the many realms that it connects with.

I think it is useful to have an understanding of all those different perspectives and acknowledge that they all have their uses (even including the Tonal or heteronomy, which I think are similar concepts.)

The goal of the Eastern approach to spirituality is dissolving the illusion of separation between the Atman and Braman, or in Buddhist terms, the merging of the self with Buddha, or the attainment of Nirvana. To achieve that state, it is generally said, takes countless lifetimes, though one may experience it also to varying degrees as one travels that path to final dissolution.
Other realms may be visited along the way, but the goal is to attain a state of Oneness so absolute that all materiality and thought of separation is dissolved in it, and the concept of one's separateness is absorbed into the state of Oneness with All.

While Don Juan and shamans and mystics who follow the more indigenous paths apparently focus more on exploring the many other realms of Being that we aren't normally aware of which parallel our own reality, and refining their power, integrity and strengths through experiencing and interacting with those realms, and bringing those strengths back with them to this one.

The journey itself is more the goal, and gaining more individual autonomy, integrity and the power and freedom to explore those realms is paramount.
If they think there is some final end to that journey, I have not heard of it.
But I think they trouble themselves less with what that "finish line" might be, as it might be more of a distraction than anything until it is actually in sight.

They may use ayahuasca or other mind altering plants to learn how to get into those realms, but with the understanding that they are not hallucinating those realms; the substances are just helpful in learning how to find them and to find allies who can help in their exploration.
Focusing the mind or meditation is also a tool used in that pursuit.

Eastern philosophies and practices seem very different from the more indigenous and shamanic, but in the successful practice of each, many of the same goals are achieved.
There is evidence that shamans and yogis both are able to not only find inner peace, achieve longevity, etc. but also do seemingly miraculous things such as levitate, teleport, shapeshift, read minds, project thoughts, heal themselves and others and so on...

Of course, much less is known about what the shamans might have achieved as they progressed, because of the Western world's incursions into their geographical domains and because they seem to have kept themselves more apart from the cultures they sprang from.

The blending of the Eastern philosophies with the cultures of their homelands probably have led to more opportunities for heteronomy to water down the core teachings, but that core message has also always been about freedom and autonomy, I believe.

I think it is a mistake to imagine that one is superior to another, however, and is much more productive to explore their similarities.

[mountain_jim]

views from a modern, western, physicist Shaman (as seen from Icke's headlines page today)

I got my degree in Nuclear Physics... and I like to say - if they trusted me with plutonium, then why not LSD?

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFHRwwYTFh0

[songsfortheotherkind]

Posted by mountain_jim (here)
to get past the limitations and restrictions of ego and a constricted view of reality and possibility.

I have a different perspective and experience of the word 'ego'. I personally experience a difference conceptually between what I call the virus mind (which I personally feel is the element of 'ego' that individuals are discussing) and that which has been labelled the 'ego', which to me is the necessary psychological interface between Self and the rest of the universe. Thus, I find the experience and interface of 'ego' useful, rather than something that needs to be overcome or done away with. Because of these perceptual and experiential differences, I find it difficult to create a mutual platform from which to explore these subjects.

I think those participating in this thread are expressing aspects of this from many methods, perspectives, and experiences, hopefully we can understand and encourage this diversity and still move onward productively toward's identifying and rooting out the embedded heteronomy control programming, an effort I appreciate, where it really appears to arise.

IN any creative endeavour that brings together many individuals from various areas of expertise or experience, one of the first tasks is to create a baseline language from which the exploration and development can occur. This is what I am endeavouring to engage in, although modwiz has suggested useful alternatives to doing that the more difficult- and possibly confrontive- way. I agree that the potential in terms of moving the virus/heteronomy dissolving skills forward is huge. It makes me bouncy even thinking about it.

[mountain_jim]

'Ego' is a difficult term usage-wise as it has so many indefinite versions of its usage, I agree.

I have sensed within me a conflict between my body and other aspects of me that I would not necessarily identify with virus mind, based on my understanding of your usage of that term.

(What I think is happening is) my body-consciousness (hard to define that too) has appeared to try and limit my ability to astral project and establish an awareness point of view temporarily independent of my body. My body seems to not like the possibility of this loss of 'control'. Something fearful shuts down the Kundalini, or finds some physical area to obstruct, when this is in process of occuring. (Bilocation appears not to trouble this area in the same way, though)

I was referring to this, plus any general aspects of emotion-based Fear, as well as the programmed-in 'virus mind' , as all being the 'ego' above as causing the limitations and restrictions to other aspects of awareness. If other aspects of the self-directing and self-determining Self are part of the definition of ego, then I agree with you I need a different term for what I was pointing to...

[Carmen]

I see what you are saying Songs, with reference to the ego. From my perspective the ego is our interface with this material, bodily realm and is most necessary. Also, from my learning, it's when the ego is disconnected from the spiritual guidance and knowing of our deeper self and is 'altered', 'conditioned', mind controlled by its limited conditioning of this controlled matrix. The ego is meant to be partnered, twinned, by the deeper part of ourselves, not disconnected and out of control. In my journey it was when I realised my 'altered' ego would rather see me dead than give in to a greater knowing. That's when I took control of it. I must say, I think it was relieved! It thought it would die but it only got intergrated!

[another bob]

From the vantage point of the silence behind the mind – pure awareness -- one can realize the insubstantiality of one's transient self-images. When they are seen through and recognized for what they are – cases of mistaken identity -- they tend to become obsolete, and what remains is a love that has no boundary or self-limitation.

Such love is our natural state, prior to the charades of conflicted incarnation. It is our primordial essence, and ever-present, though usually hidden beneath the conditional layers of neurotic personality that we consider “normal” in this time and place.

Aligning with this perspective both inspires and makes possible true transformation in the way we live and act in the human world, and frees us from the heavy burden of fear and doubt that clouds the usual vision. The fist at the heart opens and life breathes.

When this true nature, or essence, is first recognized as one’s prior identity in moments of genuine awakening, there is an enormous sense of ecstatic emotional relief, but typically one soon is drawn back into the conflicted egoic state by the weight of accumulated habit energy. Nevertheless, this glimpse creates the space and faith for further liberation to proceed, and thus begins the process of real cultivation.

This process generally involves systematically seeing through and discarding all within one’s own being that is not in congruence with the original recognition, such as hatred, greed, envy, and arrogance. It’s a process of embodiment, or full integration. As it evolves, a genuine concern for others replaces the selfish motive that previously characterized the individual, and true compassion becomes possible, as the natural state of unconditional love more and more shines through.

On the other hand, the habitual narcissism of the self-enamored personality cannot bear the light of such scrutiny, and will resist any change, sensing that such a transformation would supplant it from its power position, and so in fearful reactivity typically retreats and clings to familiar conditioned strategies of contrived reality that inevitably trace back to a socio-pathological root.

Furthermore, it serves little purpose to point this out to such a personality, since they will only respond to messages which confirm their particular complex, defensively rejecting all others as threats and insults. The mind so afflicted in its own elevation and survival, by its very nature, precludes any empathetic impulse or compassionate response-ability.

This is the mad child who constitutes the vast majority of the population here in this realm, and so if we are truly keen on authentic human progress, we need to start with our own self-absorbed craziness, the knot at our own hearts, rather than speculating about global transformation and fabricating evolutionary fantasies predicated on names and notions spawned from the very mind for which true empathy and compassion is yet a distant stranger. Ultimately, it must be seen that effective transformation can only be built on a foundation of real compassion, which is what true love is all about.

[mountain_jim]

Posted by another bob (here)
When this true nature, or essence, is first recognized as one’s prior identity in moments of genuine awakening, there is an enormous sense of ecstatic emotional relief, but typically one soon is drawn back into the conflicted egoic state by the weight of accumulated habit energy. Nevertheless, this glimpse creates the space and faith for further liberation to proceed, and thus begins the process of real cultivation.

I am real familiar with this process, having gone through my most intense experiences, in what I have termed for myself aspects of the death > rebirth archetype more than once in this life.

However, I must confess I am not apparently as far along as Carmen for instance:

Posted by Carmen (here)
In my journey it was when I realised my 'altered' ego would rather see me dead than give in to a greater knowing. That's when I took control of it. I must say, I think it was relieved! It thought it would die but it only got intergrated!

as I can't claim to having fully taken 'control' or integrated the my higher and lower aspects of Self. I would not consider that the case while I still had fears, doubts, guilt, or aspects of possessiveness to acknowledge still existing in my life or being.

I would also be more successful at remote viewing, astral traveling, and other of the siddhi's I have touched upon, I suspect. And I am aware of the Eastern teachings POV regarding not chasing these emphemeri.

I also am aware that this current discussion does relate this thread with the Spirituality section of the forum, but then what subject wouldn't?

[another bob]

Hiya Jim!

Yes, it is all related.

As far as your confession, if we had cleaned up our act of all "fears, doubts, guilt, or aspects of possessiveness", then we'd be ready for the next curriculum, eh. It's why we keep coming back here (most of us anyway) -- there's still stuff that sticks, which thankfully shows us where our work is, and we're given plenty of tools and support for the job. It's only our reluctance to follow through that holds us back, and so we can examine that reluctance, and see what's at the root of it. Invariably, from what I've observed, it's a contraction at the heart, for which love is the only solvent.

Blessings!

[songsfortheotherkind]

Posted by mountain_jim (here)
'Ego' is a difficult term usage-wise as it has so many indefinite versions of its usage, I agree.

I have sensed within me a conflict between my body and other aspects of me that I would not necessarily identify with virus mind, based on my understanding of your usage of that term.

Then if you are amenable, I'd like to begin by exploring my perspective of why I experience this conflict as part of the mind virus.

When one holds a baby in one's arms, it is clear that there is no conflict within their body. As they grow, it's clear that they are *in* their body until they are frightened or trained out of it somehow. How does this happen? By the external influence of those around them. Conflict has as its roots a fundamental condition of opposition between two sttates- like magnets pushing against each other. This is not the natural state of a child. This has been demonstrated by the observation of children raised in native cultures that have a laid back approach to their children and their life; the more heavily invested in any particular paradigm- in native cultures, this tends towards heavy handed taboo/religious systems, external systems designed to create a specific kind of behaviour and thinking within the individual in such a way as to restrict, modulate, constrict in some way the individual's natural, free flowing state of Being.

As someone who both experienced this constriction and had a hacker's mind about it, I spent a lot of years plunged into the mind of the constriction and external authority, free falling through the space constantly on fire but with an unwavering eye on finding who or what was f*cking with me. I came to see the overmind directing these various systems of thinking that are fundamentally aimed at control and domination; always with the same agenda, to direct the natural, powerful energy of the individual towards some other place. This redirection was *never* a positive thing for the individual and resulted in a continual loss of autonomy and energy. This system is worldwide- it looks different in different places, sure, and sometimes it's hard to spot because it can be wearing the most benign face and make the most peaceful gestures, but the same purpose and intention is there- to divert the natural autonomy and individual's power to an external source. I have seen it so thoroughly now that I don't question its presence anymore- to my experience, it's a worldwide system that has at its core a system of energy and focus that very much has it's own purpose and intention. This is what I call the virus- because I understand the behaviours of viruses and parasites, I went investigating a raft of concepts to help me explore this mind system I was observing. What I observed fulfilled the description of both virus and parasite:

vi·rus  [vahy-ruhs]

noun, plural vi·rus·es.
1. an ultramicroscopic (20 to 300 nm in diameter), metabolically inert, infectious agent that replicates only within the cells of living hosts, mainly bacteria, plants, and animals: composed of an RNA or DNA core, a protein coat, and, in more complex types, a surrounding envelope.
2.Informal . a viral disease.
3. a corrupting influence on morals or the intellect; poison.
4.a segment of self-replicating code planted illegally in a computer program, often to damage or shut down a system or network

virus (vī'rəs)

Any of various extremely small, often disease-causing agents consisting of a particle (the virion ), containing a segment of RNA or DNA within a protein coat known as a capsid . Viruses are not technically considered living organisms because they are devoid of biological processes (such as metabolism and respiration) and cannot reproduce on their own but require a living cell (of a plant, animal, or bacterium) to make more viruses. Viruses reproduce first either by injecting their genetic material into the host cell or by fully entering the cell and shedding their protein coat. The genetic material may then be incorporated into the cell's own genome or remain in the cytoplasm. Eventually the viral genes instruct the cell to produce new viruses, which often cause the cell to die upon their exit. Rather than being primordial forms of life, viruses probably evolved from rogue pieces of cellular nucleic acids. The common cold, influenza, chickenpox, smallpox, measles, mumps, yellow fever, hemorrhagic fevers, and some cancers are among the diseases caused by viruses.

Computer Science A computer program that duplicates itself in a manner that is harmful to normal computer use. Most viruses work by attaching themselves to another program. The amount of damage varies; viruses may erase all data or do nothing but reproduce themselves.

par·a·site
 
[par-uh-sahyt]
noun
1. an organism that lives on or in an organism of another species, known as the host, from the body of which it obtains nutriment.
2.a person who receives support, advantage, or the like, from another or others without giving any useful or proper return, as one who lives on the hospitality of others.
3. (in ancient Greece) a person who received free meals in return for amusing or impudent conversation, flattering remarks, etc.
Origin:
1530–40; < Latin parasītus < Greek parásītos one who eats at another's table, orig. adj.: feeding beside, equivalent to para- para-1 + sît ( os ) grain, food + -os adj. suffix

parasite par·a·site (pār'ə-sīt')
n.

An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

In conjoined twins, the usually incomplete twin that derives its support from the more nearly normal fetus.

parasite (pār'ə-sīt') Pronunciation Key
An organism that lives on or in a different kind of organism (the host) from which it gets some or all of its nourishment. Parasites are generally harmful to their hosts, although the damage they do ranges widely from minor inconvenience to debilitating or fatal disease. ◇ A parasite that lives or feeds on the outer surface of the host's body, such as a louse, tick, or leech, is called an ectoparasite . Ectoparasites do not usually cause disease themselves although they are frequently a vector of disease, as in the case of ticks, which can transmit the organisms that cause such diseases as Rocky Mountain spotted fever and Lyme disease. ◇ A parasite that lives inside the body of its host is called an endoparasite . Endoparasites include organisms such as tapeworms, hookworms, and trypanosomes that live within the host's organs or tissues, as well as organisms such as sporozoans that invade the host's cells. See more at host.

host (hōst)

The larger of two organisms in a symbiotic relationship.

An organism or cell on or in which a parasite lives or feeds. ◇ A definitive host is an organism in which a parasite reaches sexual maturity. The anopheles mosquito is the definitive host for the malaria plasmodium because, while the mosquito is not adversely affected by the plasmodium's presence, it is the organism in which the plasmodium matures and reproduces. ◇ An intermediate host is an organism in which a parasite develops but does not attain sexual maturity. Humans and certain other vertebrates are the intermediate host of the malaria plasmodium. ◇ A paratenic host is an organism which may be required for the completion of a parasite's life cycle but in which no development of the parasite occurs. The unhatched eggs of nematodes are sometimes carried in a paratenic host such as a bird or rodent. When a predator eats the paratenic host, the eggs are ingested as well.

The recipient of a transplanted tissue or organ.

A computer containing data or programs that another computer can access by means of a network or modem.

From where I was hanging, out in the otherrealms, what I was observing was a vast, parasitic virus system, a powerful fusing of the elements of biological and computer analogies, that was designed to specifically interact and interfere with the sentient species on this planet. This clicked into place a language with which I could communicate concepts and experiences I had had since birth but had only had an energetic and telepathic language with which to communicate my experience- and I was in a world populated by telepathic deafness. It took the evolution of the computer world and language to truly find metaphors that could be understood.

There is an external system of control and manipulation that inserts itself, to a greater or lesser degree, through the instruction and transmission by the child's *outer world of caregivers*, into the child. The foundational purpose and intention of the virus- which is *sentient* to a degree in and of itself- is to replace the natural autonomy of the frequency of the evolution Consciousness that the child naturally carries with an external system of harvesting energy, which I have named the heteronomy- that which seeks to control and dominate the individual to the ultimate detriment of the individual. The virus has *it's own* agenda and intention, NONE of which are about the wellbeing of the host: how can it be, when the virus itself NEEDS the energy of the host in order to survive? This is the endoparasitic element of the virus, with sentient Beings as the target, for the specific purpose of diverting the enormous CREATIVE power of the fully expressed autonomy to it's OWN survival and dissemination.

Now, go back to the conflict that you first mentioned and look at it from my perspective: to me, the constriction of your natural ability is unnatural to your Being in itself, not part of the evolution Consciousness signal as you naturally would express it and therefore, *to me*, part of the expression and intention of the virus.

I am *not* here saying that the emergence of the virus is some kind of expression of 'evil' or any of the other concepts that religion is interested in pimping, that state of rigid duality, black and white: *to me*, the emergence of the entire system that created the virus in the first place is all ultimately part of the evolution signal its Self, because the evolution will *always* occur, regardless of how hard any individual or group is striving to prevent it: there's nothing going on here that 'shouldn't' be happening and at the same time, that doesn't mean that it's the *best option* either. Just as with all parasites and viruses, we have choices: we can create a symbiotic balance with it, in which we're never really well but aren't sick enough to stop being a host- religion, philosophy, government etc are ways that this sickening and draining symbiosis happens; we can be overwhelmed by the virus parasite and die, either spiritually or physically (and the former leads inevitably to the latter) OR we can use our spiritual/energetic immune system, get to know the symptoms of a virus incursion, pump our spiritual immune system to the max and dismiss the virus without nothing more than a mild temperature and a few cleansing glasses of superjuices. All viruses and parasites serve the evolution signal in that they challenge the immune and adaptive systems of the host with a view to either making these stronger, or discovering the weakness of the Being and exploiting it. So far, the collective has been trading autonomy for exploitation because of the perceived benefits of such exploitation, which in essence are nothing more than chemical tricks caused by the parasite itself, like toxoplasmosis chemically convincing the rat that the cat is the sexiest thing it's ever seen so that it will go and get eaten by the cat: all part of the parasite's plan and purpose, but not so great for the rat. Perhaps a more critical eye at the Great Green Head is in order, because at the foundation is a bunch of chemical and psychological contortions with a specific purpose and intention that is NOT positive to the host.

This is a glimpse into this world as seen by my mind. ANY preacher, no matter how cosily they are preaching, no matter how 'friendly' and 'helpful' the 'adjustment' they are attempting to assert might seem to be, no matter how 'spiritual' or 'enlightened' they may present themselves to be, ALL preachers are preaching nothing but the heteronomy: religion, philosophy, psychology, education, government: all are designed to force or entice the individual into giving away the thing of TRUE value, the creative power within them that is expressed in part as the individual's autonomy. That's what I look at, constantly: everything I experience is filtered through the overarching theme of 'is this something designed to siphon off my autonomy?'. I hold the lens of autonomy up to everything, like the stone in Spiderwick Chronicles: I got used to everything of the system looking like hideous toads underneath all the contortions and self serving and smiling manipulation disguised as 'helpfulness' or 'caring' or 'authority' or any of the myriads of other tactics the virus uses. For me personally, the bottom line is simple: if applied to its greatest expression, is this idea/concept/philosophy/platform just another fertile ground for the re-emergence of the heteronomy? Unless the expression is founded absolute in autonomy then the answer has always come back to me as 'yes', in which case everything halts there, my dragons at the gate, and the infected material cannot pass, no matter how precioussssssssssss it is to the host or how elaborate a rationalisation can be made for it.

Virus infected concepts only have two paths: in one, there are elements of the concept that can be resuscitated from the grip of the poison, detoxed, left to recover in a sunny spot in a comfy chair for awhile and then reintroduced to the signal; in the other, there's nothing but immune system response and natural dissolution, death and release of the energy back into the All to be recycled back as a less closed system form. There's no such thing as 'it's only a little bit infected'- try telling that to the Native Americans who died from blankets that were 'a little bit' infected by smallpox. As physical Beings who encounter viruses and parasites, we fundamentally grasp the nature of these things and we get that there's no such thing as healthy co-existence with a debilitating and draining parasite.

That's where I come from. I'm not here to make the lie more palatable, I'm here to call things what they are and reject the complex entangling- spiritual, physical, legal, psychological and energetic- that the virus creates. It's the system that has created the miasms and matrix we currently find our Selves in and for me personally, I've got waaaaaay better things to do, to create and to Be.

I was referring to this, plus any general aspects of emotion-based Fear, as well as the programmed-in 'virus mind' , as all being the 'ego' above as causing the limitations and restrictions to other aspects of awareness. If other aspects of the self-directing and self-determining Self are part of the definition of ego, then I agree with you I need a different term for what I was pointing to...

Now you know a bit more about how many pieces I hold in my head at one time regarding this issue: what I've written about are just a few of these elements, so when it's being discussed perhaps now my 'fnurgh, clunk' element can be seen as possibly something OTHER than others thinking I'm arrogant. *wolfish grin at you*

I need to go make breakfast now- this came off the top of my head when I woke up.

[songsfortheotherkind]

Posted by another bob (here)
From the vantage point of the silence behind the mind – pure awareness -- one can realize the insubstantiality of one's transient self-images.

Is it possible to shift this from heteronomy to autonomy speech? As it is currently written there is no autonomy at all, but a great deal of preaching the heteronomy disguised as 'spiritual wisdom'. I am allergic to heteronomy in any form and choose not to engage with it at all, so I didn't fully read past the first sentence, I just zoxed the rest, knowing the hurdy gurdy tune. Then again, you may not actually be interested in engaging with me or the actual discussion that this thread was started about- autonomy as the answer to heteronomy- which would be understandable given the repeated refusal on your part to respect my own autonomy by insisting on bringing this heteronomous philosophy to the threads I create.

I see that. I'm calling it as I see it. Unless autonomy language is used, I'm not interested. You are a very smart man, you know what I'm talking about. I know you like to set things up so that you can demonstrate the wounded and misunderstood philosopher who is just trying to point out some grave error of thinking. You have been quite open about your opinion of me and my 'delusional state' and yet here you are again, preaching the heteronomy and managing to slide in a few pointed barbs against anyone whose autonomy does not match the markers presented. Why is that, I wonder? Am I that much of a threat to the virus? That's interesting and encouraging in itself.

I'm not perturbed. I know virus when I see it. Now the watchers get to see what you do when you're called out about it- are you going to insult and demean me again? Or go the other way, digging in deeper to the heteronomy, looking for support from others who see things the same way, which is just more heteronomy and can easily be seen to be so. You know the difference? I'm out here, on my own, not asking for homogeny of thought, not looking for agreement, not relying on the wisdom of 'masters' to substantiate my position: I'm me, just putting my Self out into the signal, my autonomy pointing to the element of the hologram I can see and saying 'this is what I've got, I'd love to co-create if there's any to be had out there'. The heteronomy writes dismissal of others, of 'correction' back to some 'proper' course, some preordained and correct way of seeing and doing things and is pointedly insulting and demeaning of anything *outside* these parameters, such as

The mind so afflicted in its own elevation and survival, by its very nature, precludes any empathetic impulse or compassionate response-ability.

which is loaded with judgement, superiority and focus on shaming the other into compliance with a particular set of behavioural parameters. Thanks- you demonstrated the heteronomy and virus in your own words far better than I could have.

Also in your own words, in my experience it is the heteronomy that is

the mad child who constitutes the vast majority of the population here in this realm, and so if we are truly keen on authentic human progress, we need to start with our own self-absorbed craziness, the knot at our own hearts

I couldn't have put it better. Care to demonstrate your own willingness to put your heteronomous madness aside?

[Sebastion]

...........no...........

Posted by songsfortheotherkind (here)
i have been on this forum for awhile now, moving around the different areas and peeking in various windows. I am now moved to bring to the table a perspective that i am opening for discussion.

Those who know me know that i speak about a concept called sui generis: It's a term that i learned from my deep law studies and it basically means that one is unique, without peer, one's own jurisdiction and authority. In the terms of the law, it raises an individual above every act, statute and external authority on the planet, but that aspect requires some discussion and isn't the focus of my current post. It's a really important concept.

What i am interested in discussing is the peculiar nature of most of the threads that are posted on this forum, with perhaps the exception of the alternative health thread. To this end, i'd like to introduce a concept: heteronomy.

here's a dictionary defnition:

Het`er`on´o`my
n. 1. Subordination or subjection to the law of another; political subjection of a community or state; - opposed to autonomy.

(note: There's a second definition here which defines the word according to kant, which is a heteronomous definition in itself, so i've ignored it)

webster's revised unabridged dictionary, published 1913 by c. & g. Merriam co.

Heteronomy
1. The state or condition of being ruled, governed, or under the sway of another, as in a military occupation.
2. The state or condition of being under the influence or domination, in a moral, spiritual, or similar sense, of another person, entity, force, etc. Cf. Autonomy. — heteronomous, adj.
See also: Government
the condition of being under the moral control of something or someone external; inability to be self-willing. — heteronymous, adj.
See also: Will
the condition of being under the rule or domination of another.
See also: Politics

-ologies & -isms. Copyright 2008 the gale group, inc. All rights reserved.

Source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/heteronomy

according to this definition, heteronomy is the opposite of autonomy- so here's a look at what autonomy means:

Au·ton·o·my pronunciation (ô-tn-m)
n. Pl. Au·ton·o·mies
1. The condition or quality of being autonomous; independence.
2.
A. Self-government or the right of self-government; self-determination.
B. Self-government with respect to local or internal affairs: Granted autonomy to a national minority.
3. A self-governing state, community, or group.
[greek autonomi, from autonomos, self-ruling; see autonomous.]

autonomy [ɔːˈtɒnəmɪ]
n pl -mies
1. (government, politics & diplomacy) the right or state of self-government, esp when limited
2. (government, politics & diplomacy) a state, community, or individual possessing autonomy
3. Freedom to determine one's own actions, behaviour, etc.
4. (philosophy) philosophy
a. The doctrine that the individual human will is or ought to be governed only by its own principles and laws see also categorical imperative
b. The state in which one's actions are autonomous
[from greek autonomia freedom to live by one's own laws; see autonomous]
autonomist n

collins english dictionary – complete and unabridged © harpercollins publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

autonomy - from greek autos, "self," and nomos, "law," i.e. a person or unit that makes its own laws.

farlex trivia dictionary. © 2012 farlex, inc. All rights reserved.

Au·ton·o·mous pronunciation (ô-tn-ms)
adj.
1. not controlled by others or by outside forces; independent: An autonomous judiciary; an autonomous division of a corporate conglomerate.
2. independent in mind or judgment; self-directed.

sui generis encompasses all of the relevant concepts within these definitions, as well as an abundance more, which i'm not going to go into now or else this post will move beyond 'possibly epic' and into 'war and peace, redux'. What is of interest is the contrast between heteronomy- authority that comes from *external* to the self- and autonomy, the authority, direction and law that comes from within.

Much of the debate- and occasionally, discussion- that goes on in this forum revolves around the idea of discarding the current paradigm by replacing it with a different paradigm, as suggested by better authorities and purveyors of reality, so that the *new* paradigm will have a more solid footing. Better politicians. A shinier economy. Nicer religions.

It seems to me that almost all the posts made in this forum fall into the category of encouraging nothing more than a different form of heteronomy: Here is an authority! No, here is the authority, with impressive credentials and a pointy stick to point at the points with! No, you're all wrong, the true authority is this guy over here - and then the noise ensues, which is nothing more than the different brands of heteronomy arm wrestling with themselves while the mind virus laughs hugely in the back ground at the whole debacle, knowing that the individuals concerned are all still firmly stuck in the tarpits.

Heteronomy will never, ever be user friendly, because the user isn't engaged in the process of their own life: They're engaged in the process of trading their autonomy for whatever bright beads and trinkets they're willing to settle for. Sometimes these beads and trinkets are elaborate psychological and intellectual constructs that can appear so excellently presented and persuasively presented as to surely be spiritual wisdom of the highest order because it resonates, it creates an internal vibration that feels right.

There's only one problem: If one has been profoundly, down to the level of the genes, immersed in the deeply layered indoctrination to the heteronomy, then how can one trust one's responses if there's nothing to contrast with? There is very little autonomy discussed in this forum in a way that indicates that the writers or commenters themselves practice deep level autonomy or are comfortable with the infinitely singular expressions of such autonomy: What i observer instead are claims to autonomy that then degenerate into ideological battles, which amount to nothing more than an attempt to overlay one individual's autonomy with another's authority- which, by definition, is heteronomy. And is thus the foundation of all the current things about the paradigm that many say they are against.

Is it a case that autonomy is only ok as long as others agree with the version favored by any particular individual? Which is heteronomous in intent. When any individual advocates the election of *this* individual rather than *that* one, they are advocating heteronomy. The same goes with religious and spiritual perspectives- when there are those that do not feel the same way, or have a different perspective, the superior and condescending tones of the heteronomy emerges, or the 'gentle correction' or the not so gentle admonition; however it is couched, the heteronomy, the constant tracking back to submission to some kind of external authority, is the guiding force.

I am fully aware of the endless earnest and persuasive arguments of the heteronomy, particularly those that insist beings cannot be trusted to be their own authority: These indoctrinations begin before birth and continue to the moment of death, this constant bespelling of who and what we 'really' are, the 'sin' and 'untrustworthy' nature that beings on this planet are subject to and thus in need of a benevolent saviour of *some* kind or another, some grand external authority to tell the masses what is the correct thing to think, to do, to not do...

I'm aware of all of these arguments and i have never, ever found a single one that was not pimping, either overtly or covertly, the agenda of the heteronomy. Which, as the recent history of the majority species currently on this planet attests, creates nothing but closed systems that eventually collapse on themselves and simply arise again to recreate themselves in another, corruptive and polluted form. The desperate rhetoric of this time, this time ti will work, we'll have the *right* king, the *right* president, the *right* religion, the *better* economy, blah blah blah- and each time the answer comes in the negative because ultimately an externally governed group cannot spiritually evolve in their own singularity.

This may seem like obvious stuff, yet in relation to this forum it actually isn't- the general tone of the posts are heteronomy in one form or another, the general tone of the replies are the same: Where is the cutting edge evolution that has the actual power to truly bring the controllers and their agendas to their knees?

Apparently, it's buried beneath more rhetoric and heteronomy.

autonomy as a concept is one that has infinite depth, flavour, expression and intention to explore and consider. It is also a concept and practice that cannot be embraced while the other hand is firmly stuck to the teat of heteronomy. Autonomy has nothing whatsoever to do with homogeny of thought, nothing to do with 'agreement', nothing to do with compromise or any of the other things that the heteronomy has bleated is necessary for groups to get along together: Truly autonomous, sui generis beings are as interested in engaging with those concepts as they are in removing their left foot with a fork, for reasons that i'm not going to go into right now. Suffice to say, the practice of 'autonomy' is one where a constant interested eye is kept on any indicators of lurking heteronomy with a view to prompt removal.

So how interested are individuals in the prompt removal of the heteronomy that emerges here in teh forum? Are there any that truly believe modified heteronomy is the answer? The benevolent hand of those that consider themselves truly able to rule in a fair and considerate fashion? (for a price, of course). Is anyone who is truly interested in transformation rather than recycling going to suggest to me that behaving like an insane being (doing the same thing again and again while expecting a different result) is the best tool of the evolution there is?

I'm interested in what actually works, what is actually going to work in terms of true evolution of being. Which means some sacred cows of belief, thought, psychology, 'wisdom' and other bastions of the paradigm are going to have to be left on the roadside no matter how much the programming within screams not to. That's the nature of programming and it's been done very very well- protect and serve the virus at all costs. Viruses and parasites do that- they alter the behaviour of the hosts to serve the interests of the parasite rather than the best interests of the host.

http://tobiastenney.com/2010/06/toxoplasma/ you *really* think you're in control of your self? You really think there's no virus? Perhaps try this experiment: See what happens internally when you embrace and practice the idea of autonomy for all beings and watch what triggers inside of you.

How would this practice manifest in the forum? For a start the criticism of channeling would cease- the criticism of *any* perspective would cease, because the pervading platform of connection would be with the respect for the autonomy of all individuals, not just those that agree with the particular individual. There would be a sense of co-creation and exchange rather than going into any thread with the intention of 'correcting' any 'wrong' thinking, or to go in and call another poster, using various benign- and not so benign-words, a prime idiot for believing/thinking/saying/doing that. All such self righteous actions would cease, or be something that other individuals would question.

The superior tones of self importance regarding *any* belief or perspective would cease, as would the self congratulatory enclaves when a poster dares to express something that the rest find ridiculous. There would be a genuine focus on exploring the skills of communication rather than debate; there would be a genuine interest in and exploration of the differences between the practical expressions and skills of a group that is consciously cultivating autonomy of all beings. There would be an interest in expressing from "i" rather than globalising, which is an assumption that as it is for the individual expressing the opinion, it must also be so for everyone else. Autonomy says otherwise.

This is what interests me. I've always been interested in connecting with individuals who genuinely want to explore the deep level expression of sui generis autonomy rather than engaging in heteronomous onanism. This is still my interest and intention. I am underwhelmed by the current possibility of true evolution on a planetary scale if the tone of this forum- in which the focus itself is in part supposedly towards doing things on this planet in a more cohesive and intelligent way- is any indicator. Fortunately for me, i have never been interested in mass conversion or dependent on the idea that the future of the planet relies on *everyone* getting a clue. Still, the level of uninspiration is rather a bummer.

So rather than being bummed i thought i'd send out a flare and see what it lit up. I am looking for individuals that want to approach all things from the perspective of a sui generis, autonomous being, comfortable with the infinite possibility and expressions that arise from these, and who can tell the difference between acceptance of autonomy and having to participate in things unfun.

To me, this is where my personal evolution is heading. Does anyone else want to play in this realm?

[another bob]

Hiya Songs!

Your response to my post was as expected, so I'll just note how wonderful it is to participate in a forum that can accomodate such divergent views, and leave it at that.

Blessings!

[Borden]

Here's my experience. You can take it or leave it, and if anyone doesn't like the sound of it then they should be secure enough in their own autonomy to accept that I just see things differently to them. I am not preaching that you should see things my way. I'm expressing it because there are certain forms of imposition that I see as sugar coated poison and tyranny. They make me angry, and they make me angry because I know what it's like to feel that I must believe various purveyors of 'spiritual wisdom' even though my intuition tells me otherwise.

I'm not like that any more. I have evolved. I am aware that as unique as all of us are as individuals - there are commonalities. So I know that one and I know others have a similar experience. I know what it feels like to be cowed by people who talk in a certain way, and to feel that whether I like it or not I must listen. I get angry on behalf of the people who still feel that way, and who may be struggling to find their own autonomy in a sea of people telling them what they should believe. Far be it from me to tell them the nature of their autonomy, that would be missing the point somewhat, eh? But I will say that I believe they don't have to be cowed. So, as someone with a mind of his own I'll speak up. Not to convert anybody to anything ... but simply to demonstrate that I'm not cowed by any system of thought or belief, no matter how heavyweight it may look, no matter how old it is or how many followers and temples it has, no matter how 'knowing' it may seem in its presentation ... and no matter how it may insinuate or state that if you don't 'get' what it espouses you are wrong, unenlightened, and must inevitably get there in the end.

In my experience ... to my mind ... that STINKS of heteronomy and control.

What's hilarious to me is how those who preach obliteration of or rising above the ego, and a state of silent knowing - are so often those who cannot bear to hear about anything different. The inherent joke of this is ghastly. IN MY VIEW, it is not compassion that drives them ... it is not infinite 'love'. It is the same old heteronomy in sheep's clothing. IN MY VIEW, their ego is no less present. It has merely become a limp, atrophied, withered claw with which they scratch feebly at anything resembling a different attitude than theirs ... a different attitude in someone else's existence and experience!

They, like every other proponent of the mind-virus in whatever stage of elaboration and conceited delusion, will betray exactly the same obnoxious blindness. It's their way or the highway ... and yet their own conceits force them to cloak that sentiment in something else. It's a deception, and depressingly, I believe it's usually even a self-deception. But of course, that's how this whole mind-virus business works, isn't it.

"Let go of your ego and embrace the silence and utter compassion or you're a nasty narcissist!"

Anyone can believe whatever they want. I won't try to change that. They try and foist it on me though or impugn the fact that I see alternative ways of being for MYSELF ... and that's a different matter. It's transparently corrupt.

[onawah]

I think the only people who even approach an understanding of what the Buddha meant to demonstrate by his life can be summed up by the Zen saying, "If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him!"
IMHO, only at the point when that is grasped, can real autonomy begin...
The rest is just like dry old concepts that have been stuck away in dusty boxes for two thousand years.

[Carmen]

Posted by mountain_jim (here)

Posted by another bob (here)
When this true nature, or essence, is first recognized as one’s prior identity in moments of genuine awakening, there is an enormous sense of ecstatic emotional relief, but typically one soon is drawn back into the conflicted egoic state by the weight of accumulated habit energy. Nevertheless, this glimpse creates the space and faith for further liberation to proceed, and thus begins the process of real cultivation.

I am real familiar with this process, having gone through my most intense experiences, in what I have termed for myself aspects of the death > rebirth archetype more than once in this life.

However, I must confess I am not apparently as far along as Carmen for instance:

Posted by Carmen (here)
In my journey it was when I realised my 'altered' ego would rather see me dead than give in to a greater knowing. That's when I took control of it. I must say, I think it was relieved! It thought it would die but it only got intergrated!

as I can't claim to having fully taken 'control' or integrated the my higher and lower aspects of Self. I would not consider that the case while I still had fears, doubts, guilt, or aspects of possessiveness to acknowledge still existing in my life or being.

I would also be more successful at remote viewing, astral traveling, and other of the siddhi's I have touched upon, I suspect. And I am aware of the Eastern teachings POV regarding not chasing these emphemeri.

I also am aware that this current discussion does relate this thread with the Spirituality section of the forum, but then what subject wouldn't?

Whoa! Mountain Jim, I haven't taken complete control of my ego either, it's just more obedient LOL than it used to be. I don't allow fear and doubt to hold sway anymore, and I don't have various voices in my head anymore. I do hear a voice in answer to questions quite frequently. When that first happened I was really surprised cos it was unlike anything my personality could come up with. Guilt, I decided ages ago was a useless, energy sapping attitude. When I f--k up now I don't have a problem apologising. Interacting with the deeper self is humbling, and it can spot 'games' a mile off, especially mine.

And no, I don't consciously astral travel or leave my body. That's something I really, really want to do and have ordered a couple of second hand books on the subject that someone recommended here. I think we have been convinced through many lifetimes that we are useless sinners who will never be worthy to even think of approaching a godlike ideal. That's bull****, we all possess the animating life force, the intelligence, that which is termed God. It's just that if you are told something lifetime after lifetime and probably murdered to enforce the idea a few times, unworthyness becomes part of our very genes. It often, in my opinion, takes passion, determination and bit of 'mongrel' in us to recognise the number done on us and break out of the cultural tribe. It took, for me anyway, following the thread of fear to its root which was fear of death and saying to it "I don't care, I'd rather die that live this **** anymore". It's like calling fears ' bluff ' and it's never as bad as we think it's going to be, at least it wasn't for me.

I love this 'energy' this feeling of 'presense'. Its there when I put my attention on it. I live alone but I am never lonely. It me and 'it' and that's just great, it's blissful! I do have lots of family coming and going but I love my aloneness.

[mountain_jim]

Posted by Carmen (here)
Whoa! Mountain Jim, I haven't taken complete control of my ego either, it's just more obedient LOL than it used to be. I don't allow fear and doubt to hold sway anymore, and I don't have various voices in my head anymore. I do hear a voice in answer to questions quite frequently. When that first happened I was really surprised cos it was unlike anything my personality could come up with. Guilt, I decided ages ago was a useless, energy sapping attitude. When I f--k up now I don't have a problem apologising. Interacting with the deeper self is humbling, and it can spot 'games' a mile off, especially mine.

And no, I don't consciously astral travel or leave my body. That's something I really, really want to do and have ordered a couple of second hand books on the subject that someone recommended here. I think we have been convinced through many lifetimes that we are useless sinners who will never be worthy to even think of approaching a godlike ideal. That's bull****, we all possess the animating life force, the intelligence, that which is termed God. It's just that if you are told something lifetime after lifetime and probably murdered to enforce the idea a few times, unworthyness becomes part of our very genes. It often, in my opinion, takes passion, determination and bit of 'mongrel' in us to recognise the number done on us and break out of the cultural tribe. It took, for me anyway, following the thread of fear to its root which was fear of death and saying to it "I don't care, I'd rather die that live this **** anymore". It's like calling fears ' bluff ' and it's never as bad as we think it's going to be, at least it wasn't for me.

I love this 'energy' this feeling of 'presense'. Its there when I put my attention on it. I live alone but I am never lonely. It me and 'it' and that's just great, it's blissful! I do have lots of family coming and going but I love my aloneness.

I appreciate your clarification.

I also have identified the root of most if not all of my fears, internalized as energy obstructions at times, as stemming from the fear or death of personality. When I am successful at leaping off my energetic cliff, I experience freedom from that fear and it's intensely wonderful, but then eventually it or some aspect of it returns. My life has put me into some situations where I really believed I was about to die, and accepted that and let go of all resistance. The experienced 'death' and 'rebirth' results in me being in a bliss-connected state for weeks or even months, yet the experience wore off and I start the cycle again.

I also feel or hear my inner voice or intution directing me when I need to choose a path at a fork in the road - and it has saved my life more than once. In my youth, I consulted the I Ching often for help in connecting to this.

A work in progress am I.

I have travelling on the truck from Amazon now 2 books by Bullman recommended here, to see if I can move the ball on out-of-body experiences forward. (I finally ordered when the blue-jays in my blueberries convinced me to get some netting so that's on the truck also.)

[mountain_jim]

Posted by songsfortheotherkind (here)

Posted by mountain_jim (here)
'Ego' is a difficult term usage-wise as it has so many indefinite versions of its usage, I agree.

I have sensed within me a conflict between my body and other aspects of me that I would not necessarily identify with virus mind, based on my understanding of your usage of that term.

Then if you are amenable, I'd like to begin by exploring my perspective of why I experience this conflict as part of the mind virus.

When one holds a baby in one's arms, it is clear that there is no conflict within their body. As they grow, it's clear that they are *in* their body until they are frightened or trained out of it somehow. How does this happen? By the external influence of those around them. Conflict has as its roots a fundamental condition of opposition between two sttates- like magnets pushing against each other. This is not the natural state of a child. This has been demonstrated by the observation of children raised in native cultures that have a laid back approach to their children and their life; the more heavily invested in any particular paradigm- in native cultures, this tends towards heavy handed taboo/religious systems, external systems designed to create a specific kind of behaviour and thinking within the individual in such a way as to restrict, modulate, constrict in some way the individual's natural, free flowing state of Being.

As someone who both experienced this constriction and had a hacker's mind about it, I spent a lot of years plunged into the mind of the constriction and external authority, free falling through the space constantly on fire but with an unwavering eye on finding who or what was f*cking with me. I came to see the overmind directing these various systems of thinking that are fundamentally aimed at control and domination; always with the same agenda, to direct the natural, powerful energy of the individual towards some other place. This redirection was *never* a positive thing for the individual and resulted in a continual loss of autonomy and energy. This system is worldwide- it looks different in different places, sure, and sometimes it's hard to spot because it can be wearing the most benign face and make the most peaceful gestures, but the same purpose and intention is there- to divert the natural autonomy and individual's power to an external source. I have seen it so thoroughly now that I don't question its presence anymore- to my experience, it's a worldwide system that has at its core a system of energy and focus that very much has it's own purpose and intention. This is what I call the virus- because I understand the behaviours of viruses and parasites, I went investigating a raft of concepts to help me explore this mind system I was observing. What I observed fulfilled the description of both virus and parasite:

....< snip>

Now you know a bit more about how many pieces I hold in my head at one time regarding this issue: what I've written about are just a few of these elements, so when it's being discussed perhaps now my 'fnurgh, clunk' element can be seen as possibly something OTHER than others thinking I'm arrogant. *wolfish grin at you*

I need to go make breakfast now- this came off the top of my head when I woke up.

It would take me all day to create and type that much text.

That's why I have to choose my spots, not get into this communication too deeply, for time spent here is not spent outside tending my garden, or being with the streams, meadows, and forest. It is in merging with Nature where I most easily drop the programming, the 'virus', or all the conceptual frameworks you are hacking, and see and feel the truth for me. It's why I moved here (and why I need to get work flowing again to keep the payments current, when I really won't be around the forum so much).

I think the main conflict I experience, as discussed with Carmen, is still my body's fear of death. Another part of me does not have the fear, know's better. I have resonated with your posts to the extent I have because of my own fight for autonomy and rooting out the bad programs (virus).

I was a software developer / programmer in my earlier days), the ones from society and religion were more easily dealth with for me than the ones from my mother, who tried to program within me a fear or anxiety about every possible thing in the world(s) going wrong all the time. The work to root those out continues as well.

My primary deprogramming aids were shamanic experiences using various aids for 'altered' states to see the programs running (I have been calling those programs ego, I see that's not been the best term.)

Now the primary aid in positive change is the energetic transformation that is ongoing after over 30 years of (occasionally) flowing Kundalini, recognizing and releasing obstructions, a relatively good diet, and drinking well or spring water for last 25 years.
carry on