Prediction for Tomorrow.

[Ellisa]

What I don't understand about the US system of health care is what happens to people who have no insurance, either because they are too poor, or because they are unemployed? If they get sick are there places they can go to to receive some care, or do they just die?

It seems to me that the elderly people quoted as facing so-called Death Panels would at least have the chance of treatment, which from my reading of the posters here, would not happen now. They would just be dead- probably before they reached the stage where they could be termed elderly.

Please tell me I am wrong-- I do not believe a civilised society could let people die because they can't afford medicine and treatment.

[Dennis Leahy]

Posted by Ellisa (here)
What I don't understand about the US system of health care is what happens to people who have no insurance, either because they are too poor, or because they are unemployed? If they get sick are there places they can go to to receive some care, or do they just die?

It seems to me that the elderly people quoted as facing so-called Death Panels would at least have the chance of treatment, which from my reading of the posters here, would not happen now. They would just be dead- probably before they reached the stage where they could be termed elderly.

Please tell me I am wrong-- I do not believe a civilised society could let people die because they can't afford medicine and treatment.

If someone shows up at an Emergency Room, broke and without insurance, they do get basic treatment. The hospital takes the loss - part of operating expenses. No compensation at all from the US government. (Source: I know a hospital CEO.)

Dennis

[ghostrider]

Government shouldn't force me to do anything about me getting or not getting healthcare. I wish the politicains would just leave us alone and let us live our lives. The train wreck they've created on all fronts, and they want to tell me how to live ? they can't even balance a checkbook. 16 trillion in debt .

[Tane Mahuta]

Posted by jagman (here)
My prediction is as follows. Tomorrow the United States Supreme Court will find the Affordable Healthcare Act Unconstitutional, Specifically the mandate. (5-4)

Way to go jag!!!...

TM

[jagman]

Posted by Mulder (here)
I'll look on-line all day tomorrow & see what happens.

It looks like my prediction is going to be off by a day but it will be a 5-4 decision.
From what I've heard on the news, The decision is already wrote but they are waiting to release it because they know its going to cause a big stink.

[eileenrose]

Posted by ghostrider (here)
Government shouldn't force me to do anything about me getting or not getting healthcare. I wish the politicains would just leave us alone and let us live our lives. The train wreck they've created on all fronts, and they want to tell me how to live ? they can't even balance a checkbook. 16 trillion in debt .

Not exactly about this...but I did have the thought that government is run like some of those not credible charities. They take in fees/taxes through regulating us, they keep 90% for their expenses (ie. the top 10% of their 'management' gets 95%??, a straight out guess, of this, either as direct salaries, or as subsidies or as projects in their district (which you know leaves lots of graf options and other ways to get that chunk of change, and Agenda 21 projects).

The rest goes to the silly human's working for them in state agencies and where ever and the rest of the funds are uses to do something that makes it appear like they are legitimate. But lately, they've run out of these funds. So you know what comes next (even if people are not, in general, willing to perceive this outcome).

All illusionary (government, or what we think is a government, rather than just another criminal enterprise with a nice front)...is my feeling.

[jagman]

Americans do need better and more affordable insurance. We also need tort reform to stop the frivolous lawsuits It was the whole process that turned the
American peoples stomache. Nancy Pelosi " We will have to pass it before we see whats in it." They forced it down our throats and its a bitter pill.
I think im going to eat a double quarter pounder from Mcdonalds and wash it down with a big 44oz of cola. If my arteries harden or I have a heart attack
or I get fat, Well...... I guess its on me and i wouldnt have it any other way.....For land of the free and the home of the brave.

[Ellisa]

So, I hadn't realised this jagman... After being patched up the person is discharged from Emergency, where they have only received treatment at all because they are in a bad state, first aid really--- what happens then? Are they ever admitted for treatment, for monitoring, or for an operation? For example, suppose it was a heart attack or stroke suffered by a 60 yo person who has lost their job and thus their cover. How would their treatment proceed? Heart patients often need time in hospital for treatment and also assessment and for a stroke survivor the follow up rehab, usually in a medical setting, is essential. Does this patient receive this?

What about accessing doctors? A person with a bad chest infection can be treated outside of hospital by their local doctor and be returned to health - although, hang on, would they be entitled to medicines (free or discounted)?. If this chest infection is neglected the ensuing pneumonia would need hospital admission for the patient. Would that happen?

I have to say that from the comments here most people don't see this as a bad thing. I guess you get used to what you have, even when it is not the way it could , or should, be.

[jagman]

Posted by Ellisa (here)
So, I hadn't realised this jagman... After being patched up the person is discharged from Emergency, where they have only received treatment at all because they are in a bad state, first aid really--- what happens then? Are they ever admitted for treatment, for monitoring, or for an operation? For example, suppose it was a heart attack or stroke suffered by a 60 yo person who has lost their job and thus their cover. How would their treatment proceed? Heart patients often need time in hospital for treatment and also assessment and for a stroke survivor the follow up rehab, usually in a medical setting, is essential. Does this patient receive this?

What about accessing doctors? A person with a bad chest infection can be treated outside of hospital by their local doctor and be returned to health - although, hang on, would they be entitled to medicines (free or discounted)?. If this chest infection is neglected the ensuing pneumonia would need hospital admission for the patient. Would that happen?

I have to say that from the comments here most people don't see this as a bad thing. I guess you get used to what you have, even when it is not the way it could , or should, be.

Elisa, You make some pretty good points.We do need more safety nets for the poor.
But this monstrosity of legislation was all wrong for the American people. You know
If Barack Obama wanted real healthcare reform he should have followed Bill Clintons
example. Bill Clinton reached across the asile to Newt and wellfare reform was born.

[UnrealDreams]

Posted by Ellisa (here)
What I don't understand about the US system of health care is what happens to people who have no insurance, either because they are too poor, or because they are unemployed? If they get sick are there places they can go to to receive some care, or do they just die?

It seems to me that the elderly people quoted as facing so-called Death Panels would at least have the chance of treatment, which from my reading of the posters here, would not happen now. They would just be dead- probably before they reached the stage where they could be termed elderly.

Please tell me I am wrong-- I do not believe a civilised society could let people die because they can't afford medicine and treatment.

Dennis answered this already, but...... sure, if you walk into an emergency room, you will be treated. This is great if you are in a car crash, or you break a limb. However, if you have terminal cancer, or another disease and you need procedures done, or even specialist consultation, you are screwed.

I have a story for you. I was working for a large electrical contractor in 2005 and had health insurance through them. I had some stomach pains, and went to my doctor. He couldn't find the problem, and he referred me to a specialist. I lost my job a few months later when the company went belly up. Then I tried to go to the specialist. I didn't have insurance then, and the specialist denied my request for an appointment. I looked in the phone book and called around. I had plenty of money and offered to pay cash. In spite of this, not one single specialist would see me without insurance. So I had to go another route.

I called around to try to see another doctor thinking maybe my problem could be diagnosed. After calling almost every doctor in the phone book, I found exactly one doctor's office who would see me on a cash basis without insurance. I was excited, because the stomach pains were not going away. I was driving down the road, looking at addresses looking for the doctor's office and I drove right by it. Who knew the doctors office was inside a regular shopping center, next to a Winn Dixie supermarket!! It was actually just a walk in clinic. I didn't care as long as I got to see a doctor about my stomach. So, I found my way into the doctors office and they took me back into an examination room. I finally did get to be seen, but there was no doctor there. There was a nurse practitioner who was running(literally) from examination room to examination room trying to see as many patients as possible.

The nurse practitioner did not diagnose my illness. She had absolutely no clue. So, to make a long story short, the health care system in America had failed me. I was sick and no amount of cash money would allow me to be treated in this system. The good thing was that I was not seriously ill. Another good thing was, this made me search for a cure on my own. I ended up buying the book "Healing the Gerson Way" by Charlotte Gerson after watching a video where she explained the basics of the Gerson Therapy and how she had cancelled her health insurance something like 45 years earlier because she no longer had a need for modern allopathic medicine.

I went on a very strict version of the Gerson Therapy, minus some of the supplements, and including only raw plant food in my diet. Within a few weeks I was better, and I went on a watered down version of the diet because of my propensity to go out to eat often. I found that the stomach issues were related to the food I was eating at restaurants, as I would have lapses occasionally, and the stomach issues would come back. After more research, I found that GMO food was causing my issues, and I have been off of GMO food ever since then. I had to leave the country because something like 90% of the corn is GMO, and it is everywhere and unlabeled. Nowadays, I rarely go out to eat, and strictly avoid processed foods. I can't always afford to eat organic food, but I try. I also take potassium supplements, and do liver flushing and organic juices regularly. If I ever get sick, I will go back on the full Gerson Therapy. I am now healthy.....no thanks to the American health care system.

This has worked out perfectly for me, I must say. Because now, after reading this book, I realize what the root cause of illness is. And that a holistic approach to health is essential. Nature gave us all that we need to be healthy, and I will never need to consult a modern allopathic doctor again for my health issues. I have taken control over my own well being and health. I am no longer a slave to the health care system, and this is very empowering. This is the best thing that ever happened to me from a health perspective.

[gripreaper]

Posted by UnrealDreams (here)
I ended up buying the book "Healing the Gerson Way" by Charlotte Gerson after watching a video where she explained the basics of the Gerson Therapy and how she had cancelled her health insurance something like 45 years earlier because she no longer had a need for modern allopathic medicine.

This has worked out perfectly for me, I must say. Because now, after reading this book, I realize what the root cause of illness is. And that a holistic approach to health is essential. Nature gave us all that we need to be healthy, and I will never need to consult a modern allopathic doctor again for my health issues. I have taken control over my own well being and health. I am no longer a slave to the health care system, and this is very empowering. This is the best thing that ever happened to me from a health perspective.

Love Gerson. Also Jim Humble. Between the two of them, I no longer need allopathic medicine either. Don't have health insurance and I don't want it, or need it.

[Ellisa]

That's a horrible story, 'unreal dreams'. I am glad you were able to find some relief, but it is really bad that your health should depend on cover that you have no control over. It is good that you were able to correct your illness yourself, I have never heard of Charlotte Gerson but I shall be looking for some research in the area.

Whilst alternative methods often work- I for instance get huge relief from arthritis by acupuncture, which was suggested by my conventional doctor who was not keen to provide more and more medications- for many conditions conventional treatments do work. It should be a choice which to use, not a forced decision. Often both will complement each other.

[Dennis Leahy]

The so-called health care bill is an abomination. It is the pretty magician's assistant's low-cut neckline on her sequined outfit. Watch the magicians hands!

There are several ideas splintered-off from the original topic of the so-called US "health care" bill being expressed here that deserve their own thread. Until then...

All of these are a part of the overall picture:
healthcare, health, emergency medicine, conventional ("modern", "Western") medicine and all of the various "alternative" medicine disciplines, pharmaceutical drugs, pharmaceutical drug companies, health insurance companies, US federal income tax, illegal/suppressed medicinal substances, US government collusion with pharmaceutical drug companies and with health insurance companies, USDA, FDA, CDC, WHO...

I spent a bit of time researching "health care reform", knew it was a rabbit hole, but was surprised how many interconnecting tunnels there were in the rabbit hole. Be careful what you ask for...

A faction of well-meaning US citizens are screaming for "universal health care" or for "single payer health care" (eliminate health insurance companies, have the US government act as the 'single payer' to healthcare providers, a.k.a. "Medicare for All.") The idea behind single payer is: Why take citizens money (via paycheck deductions for healthcare, employer contributions for healthcare, citizen direct payments to healthcare insurers), and run them through companies that have to pay for their own infrastructure and also skim 20% off the top? The US already has an established division that IS a health care insurer (Medicare), so why not just expand it to cover everyone (basically eliminating private health insurers?) It is an excellent argument. Health insurers don't see it that way though.

Bring on the propaganda! Confuse the masses! Tell everyone it will bankrupt the USA! (even though it would save at least a theoretical 20% that is insurers profit, and the money would mostly come from the same sources - employees and employers, supplemented with taxes that would replace the out of pocket portion US citizens already pay by the billions.) Yes, the pathway of getting the money out of citizens' pockets would be different, but the amount would be the same or less - the difference being that everyone ("universal") would have health care.

The idea of pooling resources (dare I say "socialism"?) for everyone's benefit makes a lot of people (many Republicans and Libertarians, for example) froth at the mouth. It doesn't matter if the financial equation proves that more people benefit and the amount of money that leaves any citizen's pocket is the same or less - some people just cannot stand the thought of helping others. ("Others", in their minds, may be "lazy people", or any group of people that they are prejudiced against.)

Remember, I mentioned watching the magician's hands. If 'single payer' became law tomorrow, health - the real goal of healthcare - in the US would still average out as awful. Healthcare in the US is broken, not just healthcare insurance. The medical system is broken. The food system is broken. The water system is broken. I do believe in the right of each individual to full autonomy with their own body, even to commit suicide, even to commit suicide via McDonalds, Coke, Monsanto, or Pfizer. But, the goddamned US government should not be in collusion with poison providers and poison makers, helping to hide (or sanction!) the dangers in our water and food (our first "medicines") and the poisons provided by Big Pharma.

Again, I spent a bit of time researching these topics, and there is a section in The Reset Button document on "Medical and Pharmacology Reform", another on "Health Care Reform", and related information in "Food, Water, and Air Sovereignty Reform" and "Agricultural and Ranching Reform." Even the section on "Income Tax Reform" relates.

And, of course, all of those topics I wrote about in The Reset Button have at the root that first, the US citizens will demand "Election Reform" (the goal of Phase I), so that ordinary citizens with no ties to corporations are elected and appointed in all positions of US government. None of the other reforms will ever take place - regardless of the Orwellian double-speak names given to congressional bills - with officials embedded that are really the representatives of corporations.

I can say, with confidence, that I am against any and every bill passed by the current US government. Why? Well, they don't work for citizens, they work directly for corporations. This isn't 1950, it's a brave new world where the gray zone between competing worldviews and ideologies of (at least some) sincere politicians 'on both sides of the aisle' is gone. Every bill passed by the US congress will be for corporations - and against citizens' - interests.

Dennis

[nearing]

Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)

A faction of well-meaning US citizens are screaming for "universal health care" or for "single payer health care" (eliminate health insurance companies, have the US government act as the 'single payer' to healthcare providers, a.k.a. "Medicare for All.") The idea behind single payer is: Why take citizens money (via paycheck deductions for healthcare, employer contributions for healthcare, citizen direct payments to healthcare insurers), and run them through companies that have to pay for their own infrastructure and also skim 20% off the top? The US already has an established division that IS a health care insurer (Medicare), so why not just expand it to cover everyone (basically eliminating private health insurers?) It is an excellent argument. Health insurers don't see it that way though.

Bring on the propaganda! Confuse the masses! Tell everyone it will bankrupt the USA! (even though it would save at least a theoretical 20% that is insurers profit, and the money would mostly come from the same sources - employees and employers, supplemented with taxes that would replace the out of pocket portion US citizens already pay by the billions.) Yes, the pathway of getting the money out of citizens' pockets would be different, but the amount would be the same or less - the difference being that everyone ("universal") would have health care.

The idea of pooling resources (dare I say "socialism"?) for everyone's benefit makes a lot of people (many Republicans and Libertarians, for example) froth at the mouth. It doesn't matter if the financial equation proves that more people benefit and the amount of money that leaves any citizen's pocket is the same or less - some people just cannot stand the thought of helping others. ("Others", in their minds, may be "lazy people", or any group of people that they are prejudiced against.)

Remember, I mentioned watching the magician's hands. If 'single payer' became law tomorrow, health - the real goal of healthcare - in the US would still average out as awful. Healthcare in the US is broken, not just healthcare insurance. The medical system is broken. The food system is broken. The water system is broken. I do believe in the right of each individual to full autonomy with their own body, even to commit suicide, even to commit suicide via McDonalds, Coke, Monsanto, or Pfizer. But, the goddamned US government should not be in collusion with poison providers and poison makers, helping to hide (or sanction!) the dangers in our water and food (our first "medicines") and the poisons provided by Big Pharma.

Again, I spent a bit of time researching these topics, and there is a section in The Reset Button document on "Medical and Pharmacology Reform", another on "Health Care Reform", and related information in "Food, Water, and Air Sovereignty Reform" and "Agricultural and Ranching Reform." Even the section on "Income Tax Reform" relates.

And, of course, all of those topics I wrote about in The Reset Button have at the root that first, the US citizens will demand "Election Reform" (the goal of Phase I), so that ordinary citizens with no ties to corporations are elected and appointed in all positions of US government. None of the other reforms will ever take place - regardless of the Orwellian double-speak names given to congressional bills - with officials embedded that are really the representatives of corporations.

I can say, with confidence, that I am against any and every bill passed by the current US government. Why? Well, they don't work for citizens, they work directly for corporations. This isn't 1950, it's a brave new world where the gray zone between competing worldviews and ideologies of (at least some) sincere politicians 'on both sides of the aisle' is gone. Every bill passed by the US congress will be for corporations - and against citizens' - interests.

Dennis

Hallulujah, Dennis and Amen to all you just said there.

[turiya]

Connecting the dots

“As I said when you first wrote about our conversation, Obama and his crew don’t have any obvious plans of going anywhere in 2013. They have no plans to accept any Supreme Court decision striking down ‘Obama-Care,’ and intend to implement certain aspects by executive edict, regardless of the decision. I am obviously limited to the extent of my direct experiences and sources, but Obama is surrounded by a very loyal group of people in positions of extreme power. The DHS in particular is working on turning inward on Americans who disagree or stand in the way of his policies. People need to understand that the DHS is Obama’s personal army. The DOJ, EPA, other government and non-government agencies and his economic advisors are all working together to changing this country. They’re all power hungry and lack morality. They’ll stop at virtually nothing to see that our country is changed and broken beyond repair.

The financial sector is out of control and lining the pockets of our elected leaders. Think Jon Corzine and Jamie Dimon. Our debt is unsustainable. The class divide, due to crony capitalism is getting worse. From my vantage point, considering the people I overhear and am in touch with, these events are not only anticipated, but are being orchestrated in a deliberate, controlled manner.

Whatever the event, they intend to extend their stay another four years to finish what’s been started. We will be a Marxist nation and a Banana Republic.”
http://homelandsecurityus.com/archives/6170#more-6170

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZL9vNmUKyU

[Mulder]

The Supreme Court has not rules as yet! Are they waiting for the elections?