"I know, I know."

[pie'n'eal]

KNOWING.

Through practice and understanding we can go beyond hope and fear, which is the same as like and dislike. This is quite an advanced state! We arrive at a knowing, that is beyond accepting and rejecting, or trying to purify.

This cognisant knowing is devoid if grasping and fixation. In that way we can have sensations but if there is no grasping, it is an empty sensation. Empty meaning experienced, but let be.

In that sensual knowing without attachment, no karma is being produced.

There can be taste without attachment. Even if a thing is tasty, we can find a way to become non-attached, rather than making it untasty!

Then we have fearlessness. We no longer fear our reactions, after all fear is in the mind!

Most of the time we are proud of our knowing – 'we' know something. But this 'something' that is known, has no reality. That's where we get caught up all the time, in our pride, as well as the other emotions.

Pure knowing is different, it's our very nature.

“I” know, and knowing, produce a different vibration. It affects everything and every person we come into contact with. When we finally meet the Lord of Death, these two 'knowings' will be weighed up against each other! This is our karma being weighed up.

It is no good claiming to be detached, the Lord of Death KNOWS!

Still you've got to laugh, I really mean it, you've got to laugh, don't take yourself too seriously.
“I” know, is the cosmic joke, that causes to universe to snigger! We all use the same mantra all the time...”Oh, I know, I know.”




Tony

[tim]

Hi Tony,

I know, oops, I mean....known, lol.

Knowing is the new winning, enjoy....(a quest for absolute victory, ) ;

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QS0q3mGPGg

With Love/Namaste
tim

[eileenrose]

mmm

attachment and karma in the same paragraph.

mmm...

Does the production of one result in the other?

I usually don't try to explain karma. Kinda of given up on that one. Lots to it (is all).

When I talk about giving up my attachments, I usually mean to power, control and wanting something in particular. And there is always something to be attached or identified with (in manifested form....people, objects, material reality, ideas, judgements etc. ...layers built on other layers...each needing love, attention, recognition and then a possibility of letting go occurs....within).

. It is a deeper rabbit hole that a short conversation here on PA can handle. ..is all (I'm saying).

[pie'n'eal]

Thinking we know, stops knowing. We may know information, but that is still a side track, to actual knowing.
Until then there can be no real communication....a meeting of minds.

Until then, people will continue to pick at one another.....pity.

Until we can be honest with ourselves, we will not be honest with others....!

This is truly the age of conflict.

[Falcor]

the only way to 'know' something is to be that something. the mind can only know about

[Fred Steeves]

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)

“I” know, and knowing, produce a different vibration. It affects everything and every person we come into contact with. When we finally meet the Lord of Death, these two 'knowings' will be weighed up against each other! This is our karma being weighed up.

It is no good claiming to be detached, the Lord of Death KNOWS!

You've got THAT right brother.

[Sebastion]

Just out of curiosity who is The Lord of Death?

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
KNOWING.

Through practice and understanding we can go beyond hope and fear, which is the same as like and dislike. This is quite an advanced state! We arrive at a knowing, that is beyond accepting and rejecting, or trying to purify.

This cognisant knowing is devoid if grasping and fixation. In that way we can have sensations but if there is no grasping, it is an empty sensation. Empty meaning experienced, but let be.

In that sensual knowing without attachment, no karma is being produced.

There can be taste without attachment. Even if a thing is tasty, we can find a way to become non-attached, rather than making it untasty!

Then we have fearlessness. We no longer fear our reactions, after all fear is in the mind!

Most of the time we are proud of our knowing – 'we' know something. But this 'something' that is known, has no reality. That's where we get caught up all the time, in our pride, as well as the other emotions.

Pure knowing is different, it's our very nature.

“I” know, and knowing, produce a different vibration. It affects everything and every person we come into contact with. When we finally meet the Lord of Death, these two 'knowings' will be weighed up against each other! This is our karma being weighed up.

It is no good claiming to be detached, the Lord of Death KNOWS!

Still you've got to laugh, I really mean it, you've got to laugh, don't take yourself too seriously.
“I” know, is the cosmic joke, that causes to universe to snigger! We all use the same mantra all the time...”Oh, I know, I know.”




Tony

[pie'n'eal]

Perhaps we should start by asking, "What do I really know?" We are being so, so, manipulated into making everything too complicated or too simple. So much so, that we do not notice our actual knowing quality, which discerns/reflects but where judgement has not taken place yet.

It's a sort of nod of acknowledgement! Or a smile between to people, before we open our mouths.

In the afternoons I meditate in the garden, and a robin comes down, and we nod to each other....I like that!

Tony

[pie'n'eal]

Posted by Sebastion (here)
Just out of curiosity who is The Lord of Death?

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
KNOWING.

Through practice and understanding we can go beyond hope and fear, which is the same as like and dislike. This is quite an advanced state! We arrive at a knowing, that is beyond accepting and rejecting, or trying to purify.

This cognisant knowing is devoid if grasping and fixation. In that way we can have sensations but if there is no grasping, it is an empty sensation. Empty meaning experienced, but let be.

In that sensual knowing without attachment, no karma is being produced.

There can be taste without attachment. Even if a thing is tasty, we can find a way to become non-attached, rather than making it untasty!

Then we have fearlessness. We no longer fear our reactions, after all fear is in the mind!

Most of the time we are proud of our knowing – 'we' know something. But this 'something' that is known, has no reality. That's where we get caught up all the time, in our pride, as well as the other emotions.

Pure knowing is different, it's our very nature.

“I” know, and knowing, produce a different vibration. It affects everything and every person we come into contact with. When we finally meet the Lord of Death, these two 'knowings' will be weighed up against each other! This is our karma being weighed up.

It is no good claiming to be detached, the Lord of Death KNOWS!

Still you've got to laugh, I really mean it, you've got to laugh, don't take yourself too seriously.
“I” know, is the cosmic joke, that causes to universe to snigger! We all use the same mantra all the time...”Oh, I know, I know.”




Tony

Karma = What we hold in our attitude. At death all our pretence is stripped away, and we are left exposed. I've heard it said, that our good and not as good deeds are counted out , with black and white marbles. Though I don't think this is literal!

Tony

[Sebastion]

I would agree my friend that it is not literal.....lol

[Fred Steeves]

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)

In the afternoons I meditation in the garden, and a robin comes down, and we nod to each other....I like that!

I like that too Tony. It can be a fish, a tree, a cooling breeze, or a sudden little unexpected insight into something. Doesn't matter, and language is totally unnecessary.

[the_vast_mystery]

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
Thinking we know, stops knowing. We may know information, but that is still a side track, to actual knowing.
Until then there can be no real communication....a meeting of minds.

Until then, people will continue to pick at one another.....pity.

Until we can be honest with ourselves, we will not be honest with others....!

This is truly the age of conflict.

My current theory is that "knowing" is of the heart, and relates to emotional states and "Thinking" is of the mind and relates to assumptions formed after careful observation. Which, if the case, means that while the heart can respond to thoughts, thinking doesn't always really respond very well to any emotional cues from the heart. It's sort of like a one-way telephone line. Thus we cannot know anything we observe, only think that's what our heart is telling us it's sure of (when in fact, it could be something entirely otherwise!) This would also mean that knowledge actually relates to the ability to understand the full meaning our emotions and that thoughts cloud this because emotions are 100% irrational personal things that exist outside of the mind's required orderliness and sensibility.

If that were in fact the case though, there would be a lot of confusion as to how someone who had spent their entire life living in mind could live in heart. The heart may "know" what it feels, but the mind which drives the body may not be able to translate that knowing into actionable demands that can be dealt with. So in fact asking people to take the plunge and "live from the heart" might be disastrous to someone with no idea how to do the above. It would be a bit like throwing a first year foreign language student right into a poor third-world country (with maybe a list of common phrases) and hoping they're smart enough not to do anything that might get them robbed or kidnapped (like wandering out into the slums or going out at night.) Then the question becomes, how does one learn this new Swahili without either of the above happening? ^_^;;

[eileenrose]

Posted by the_vast_mystery (here)

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
Thinking we know, stops knowing. We may know information, but that is still a side track, to actual knowing.
Until then there can be no real communication....a meeting of minds.

Until then, people will continue to pick at one another.....pity.

Until we can be honest with ourselves, we will not be honest with others....!

This is truly the age of conflict.

My current theory is that "knowing" is of the heart, and relates to emotional states and "Thinking" is of the mind and relates to assumptions formed after careful observation. Which, if the case, means that while the heart can respond to thoughts, thinking doesn't always really respond very well to any emotional cues from the heart. It's sort of like a one-way telephone line. Thus we cannot know anything we observe, only think that's what our heart is telling us it's sure of (when in fact, it could be something entirely otherwise!) This would also mean that knowledge actually relates to the ability to understand the full meaning our emotions and that thoughts cloud this because emotions are 100% irrational personal things that exist outside of the mind's required orderliness and sensibility.

If that were in fact the case though, there would be a lot of confusion as to how someone who had spent their entire life living in mind could live in heart. The heart may "know" what it feels, but the mind which drives the body may not be able to translate that knowing into actionable demands that can be dealt with. So in fact asking people to take the plunge and "live from the heart" might be disastrous to someone with no idea how to do the above. It would be a bit like throwing a first year foreign language student right into a poor third-world country (with maybe a list of common phrases) and hoping they're smart enough not to do anything that might get them robbed or kidnapped (like wandering out into the slums or going out at night.) Then the question becomes, how does one learn this new Swahili without either of the above happening? ^_^;;

Hi Vast,
It only sounds convoluted. In reality, you follow your passion (hence, heart song). So easy/simple, really.

example,
If you are hiding from the truth of some experience (job, relationship, trip, money project, etc.) that is pestering you, your heart won't sing if you try to go back/do to it, again (a second time, or repeatedly, depending on how addicted you are to that negative experience.....).

[Tarka the Duck]

post deleted.

[pie'n'eal]

Posted by the_vast_mystery (here)

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
Thinking we know, stops knowing. We may know information, but that is still a side track, to actual knowing.
Until then there can be no real communication....a meeting of minds.

Until then, people will continue to pick at one another.....pity.

Until we can be honest with ourselves, we will not be honest with others....!

This is truly the age of conflict.

My current theory is that "knowing" is of the heart, and relates to emotional states and "Thinking" is of the mind and relates to assumptions formed after careful observation. Which, if the case, means that while the heart can respond to thoughts, thinking doesn't always really respond very well to any emotional cues from the heart. It's sort of like a one-way telephone line. Thus we cannot know anything we observe, only think that's what our heart is telling us it's sure of (when in fact, it could be something entirely otherwise!) This would also mean that knowledge actually relates to the ability to understand the full meaning our emotions and that thoughts cloud this because emotions are 100% irrational personal things that exist outside of the mind's required orderliness and sensibility.

If that were in fact the case though, there would be a lot of confusion as to how someone who had spent their entire life living in mind could live in heart. The heart may "know" what it feels, but the mind which drives the body may not be able to translate that knowing into actionable demands that can be dealt with. So in fact asking people to take the plunge and "live from the heart" might be disastrous to someone with no idea how to do the above. It would be a bit like throwing a first year foreign language student right into a poor third-world country (with maybe a list of common phrases) and hoping they're smart enough not to do anything that might get them robbed or kidnapped (like wandering out into the slums or going out at night.) Then the question becomes, how does one learn this new Swahili without either of the above happening? ^_^;;

Hello Vast Mystery,

There are many ways to see this, for me the mind merely translates what the heart feels.


Finding a Pure Heart. Fear of losing it.

(I apologise for this being long, I've been doing some of that thinking stuff again!)

A Pure Heart is an expression of our Essence.
Sometimes these may be felt as a one and the same thing, but breaking this down reveals finer levels, because it also has to recognise and know itself. Through the understanding of the Heart, we can find our way back to Essence. When this is realised the Heart is merely a radiance of Essence.
On closer inspection of subtler feelings, we may discover that our true Heart and Essence is beyond words.

One of the problems in searching for our true self is getting past the ideas and feelings we have about ourselves. Somewhere in there is a Pure Heart! Another obstacle is knowing the difference between 'my' feelings and how something affects me, and feelings about a situation and how that affects others. One of these is biased, or impure! We need to be aware of becoming sentimental, which is easy slip into: this has much to do with the way we react to the world around us, who themselves want a romantic ending.

Sometimes we are not always clear about our use of words, and what we mean by them: expressions such as “resonating” are vague and need clarification. When we “resonate” with our feelings, we may just be identifying with an idea that is expedient - meaning it could be a convenient, feel-good solution. This has its place, but is only a temporary fix.

So maybe feelings are mistaken for our Pure Heart...but they can show us the way. Feelings are something felt within our body, heart or mind, and sorting this out can be a mine field - especially when feelings explode! If our feelings explode then we know we are still volatile, and not safe...or sane!

What is this Heart? We may say things such as, “I'm coming from my heart” when in fact we may still be coming from somewhere in our head, or mind. If we were truly coming from our heart, that would indicate a complete and open Love. When coming from the Heart, there is no sense of “I”: there is Love that is so open that everything is reflected in Love, and nothing else.

Now, that's quite a pure state, and not one of every-day-ness!

Nothing and nobody could ever upset this completely Pure Heart, because it comes from a knowing Pure Essence. Being upset is felt in our subtle (information) body, causing some sort of tension to appear in the physical body. This in turn is interpreted in the head/mind. To be clear about this, we have to know the difference between the Heart and the Head.

The Head – or Mind - can use thoughts to describe what is felt, and noted by the Essence.
Its expression is the Heart, for the well being of others.

What is felt is more subtle than thoughts, but it is still in the realm of concepts. A concept does not have to have words or thoughts. Concepts are fixations. We can pick up in our subtle feelings whether a person is trustworthy or not, but this can be hijacked by our coarse feelings. These then activate the mind to analyse, judge and translate...and react! This is our usual way of expressing ourselves in habitual patterning, and is not so pure, is it?

So, our feelings are easily mistaken for Heart: the Pure Heart is not so easy to connect with as a link to our Essence hasn't yet been established. Repeating words isn't realisation: there has to be genuine experience.
The Pure Heart isn't so familiar to us - we are usually stuck in our feelings. We have a natural inkling that this Pure Heart is there! We just have to refine what is felt: remember that Pure Love does not judge. Judgment takes place in the mind or consciousness.

This Pure Heart is something we all wish we had, and probably think we are achieving, but let's be honest, we still get upset! Perhaps there is some work to be done? We all assume we are on the side of a righteous heart, but if that were true, then we would be in a state of constant Inner Peace, Inner Happiness and Inner Confidence. Even if we were attacked, this inner state would not change. In fact, there is much to be learnt when we feel attacked!

Maybe we have to recognise what the Heart is. As suggested before, it has to be connected to our true Essence. It has to be connected to a Love that is beyond ordinary, daily overuse of this word. It must know itself and be Pure. You have to admit, that is quite a high state!

This must beg the question, “Where are we now?” The answer must be... “Not quite there yet.”
So if we are “Not quite there yet,” we must be in some sort of confusion...collectively!

The only way we can examine if this heart is pure, is to see it being put under some sort of stress, or tested. All truth has to be tested to see if it's genuine, like testing for gold...all we have to do is observe our reactions!

Are we constant or do we change?
If we are showing a change, and if we use intelligent kindness to ourselves, we learn something. “Ah, this love is not quite pure yet!”
In being kind to ourselves at this moment, a subtle adjustment takes place. Of course it is uncomfortable to realise that one is still wobbly, but that is just progress.
If we were very intelligent, we would also appreciate that which stirred us to review our Pure Heart, but that would take a lot of love and patience as we would have to be able to deal with much ridicule. That is also when we can become our own teacher...

We hear a lot about a 'higher self beyond thoughts', but what is that? Isn't it that Pure Essence/Love we have just been talking about? What could be beyond Pure Love? As humans, we long for this Love, because it is our true nature already, but it is hidden. What is hiding it?

Merely saying, “Go beyond thoughts!” is only a mechanical process, and it could leave one 'high and dry'; this is a finer state than the normal reactionary way of life, but it is lacking something... juice! This moisture is Love, and it is soft and pliable.

The obstacle to revealing our true nature is not just 'thoughts'. It is a belief in a separate identity, being “My View.”

Even though we do not have Pure Love yet, we still have to function, or muddle along, but we do not have to be fixed there. If we continue to think our view is correct and satisfying, there will be no need to change: we will continue in our own sweet way, for a very long time. If, however we are aware that this Love could be better, and that there is subtle suffering, then we have a goal. This is our guiding-light and teacher.

Outer teachers are only there to remind us of this fact: they cannot do it for us. Saying, “I do not need a teacher!” is merely revealing a confused mind (although this is understandable, in this day and age). Saying “I do not need a teacher” also separates and cuts us off from all possibilities. In fact, we would be cutting off all of life, as we can learn from everything and everyone, when we observe the reactions in our mind.

No one has ever found their way back on their own. We have never had an original idea in our minds! There is always a continuity of help available to us. And we in turn will also take our place in helping others. Would you do anything less?


Tony

[crested-duck]

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)
Perhaps we should start by asking, "What do I really know?" We are being so, so, manipulated into making everything too complicated or too simple. So much so, that we do not notice our actual knowing quality, which discerns/reflects but where judgement has not taken place yet.

It's a sort of nod of acknowledgement! Or a smile between to people, before we open our mouths.

In the afternoons I meditate in the garden, and a robin comes down, and we nod to each other....I like that!

Tony

Pie- a nod and a smile to you, and a wave and a smile to tarka too ! As I'm sitting here at the pond typeing away, all is well as it should be. Perhapse one of my favorite videos will help the_vast_mystery_ solve the mystery.---Rob

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFs9WO2B8uI

[the_vast_mystery]

Posted by eileenrose (here)
Hi Vast,
It only sounds convoluted. In reality, you follow your passion (hence, heart song). So easy/simple, really.

example,
If you are hiding from the truth of some experience (job, relationship, trip, money project, etc.) that is pestering you, your heart won't sing if you try to go back/do to it, again (a second time, or repeatedly, depending on how addicted you are to that negative experience.....).

Not everyone has worldly passions that are even socially acceptable let alone lend themselves well to stable incomes. I watch TV/films, play video games, debate online, had been researching UFOs, spirituality and such and that was it. That was my "passion" in a nut shell, but that "passion" doesn't necessarily translate immediately into a complete living situation (job, hobbies, friends, family) with planned activities, a set schedule, etc. It can be quite hard if you're naturally spontaneous to understand how someone who's spent their entire life under strict structure/scrutiny can't just "Follow what makes them happy." They have never spontaneously followed their happiness, let alone ever had it lead them into pleasant and healthy life situations. It's a bit like expecting someone who's never seen a maze in their life to complete one in a timed test. It'll all be Swahili until they finally "Get it" and it may take a huge amount of help before they can finally "get it" entirely on their own.

The first time I tried "following my passion" it ended up with me swallowing David Wilcock's material hook, line and sinker and then painfully realizing later I had been deceived. I ended up making it into a better experience but that did not teach me anything about what my heart was trying to tell me and my own conclusion is still: "I have no idea how this thing works, going to be extra careful before I make another mistake like that one!"

[Falcor]

Posted by the_vast_mystery (here)
The first time I tried "following my passion" it ended up with me swallowing David Wilcock's material hook, line and sinker and then painfully realizing later I had been deceived. I ended up making it into a better experience but that did not teach me anything about what my heart was trying to tell me and my own conclusion is still: "I have no idea how this thing works, going to be extra careful before I make another mistake like that one!"

sounds like your passion guided you to something that taught you a lesson

there is no time wasted. your higher self will guide you to everything that you need in order for you to learn and grow.

[the_vast_mystery]

My mind extracted a lesson from a painful and embarrassing experience I was directly led into by a negligent understanding of what my feelings really are. If I had done anything even slightly differently at the time there's a very good chance I wouldn't be here right now. As that painful experience was the tip of the iceberg and led me into a period of self-harm where I almost ended up cutting too deeply and finally bleeding it all out. Fortunately I stopped myself and now all I have is a scar, but there was a period there where it was literally that close.

I don't see anything good about the overall experience and find that the lesson learned was my mind trying to spite my heart for thinking it could hurt me again. I don't handle negative experiences very well and will not respond well if my "passions" lead me straight into a hornet's nest of painful experiences. I only just recently began to extract "lessons" from the experiences after finally deciding that no, I cannot open up my heart so foolishly to everyone and allow myself to constantly suffer on a belief-roller coaster of ups, downs, and no real proof.

I became more re-assured in my original position of scientific skepticism, and then used that to evaluate all that had transpired. It was then that the "lessons" became apparent, it was only after rejecting the idea of blindly following my emotions that any knowledge became apparent.

[eileenrose]

Posted by the_vast_mystery (here)

Posted by eileenrose (here)
Hi Vast,
It only sounds convoluted. In reality, you follow your passion (hence, heart song). So easy/simple, really.

example,
If you are hiding from the truth of some experience (job, relationship, trip, money project, etc.) that is pestering you, your heart won't sing if you try to go back/do to it, again (a second time, or repeatedly, depending on how addicted you are to that negative experience.....).

Not everyone has worldly passions that are even socially acceptable let alone lend themselves well to stable incomes. I watch TV/films, play video games, debate online, had been researching UFOs, spirituality and such and that was it. That was my "passion" in a nut shell, but that "passion" doesn't necessarily translate immediately into a complete living situation (job, hobbies, friends, family) with planned activities, a set schedule, etc. It can be quite hard if you're naturally spontaneous to understand how someone who's spent their entire life under strict structure/scrutiny can't just "Follow what makes them happy." They have never spontaneously followed their happiness, let alone ever had it lead them into pleasant and healthy life situations. It's a bit like expecting someone who's never seen a maze in their life to complete one in a timed test. It'll all be Swahili until they finally "Get it" and it may take a huge amount of help before they can finally "get it" entirely on their own.

The first time I tried "following my passion" it ended up with me swallowing David Wilcock's material hook, line and sinker and then painfully realizing later I had been deceived. I ended up making it into a better experience but that did not teach me anything about what my heart was trying to tell me and my own conclusion is still: "I have no idea how this thing works, going to be extra careful before I make another mistake like that one!"

yes, there are many reasons not to follow the heart Vase..

Fear being a good one that I can attest to as well (and of course income requirements). But the heart song remains, even if the mentality (mental activity) gets in the way.

I find that I am offered decisions and if I consciously decide not to take them (like stay in a messy job situation), then I start looking for assistance (...from whatever level I am at.).

If I need a job more appropriate to my energy (matrices, feelings), then I look for help in all those regular (school, friends, etc.) areas.

When that finally failed me (as I choose work over play for many years), I finally let go (of work).

this was a dark period...for a few days/weeks. Quitting a job that was the worse one ever (in fact, it was such an overwelming negative experience, that completely destroyed/totaled my work resume...so getting another job was going to be near impossible (and other employer reasons involved as well), I never wanted to even think about working for anyone again) with zero income.

...sorry if this doesn't make sense...having trouble writing right now (thinking about something else entirely).

So, the issue was, major trust issues with employers, and to make a long story shorter, I never got over that. But that issue turned my life into the life I needed to have. Not the one society wanted me to have.

Make sense?