Teachers (Revisited)

[Fred Steeves]

There has been an ongoing conversation/debate here, largely between me and Pie'n'eal (Tony), who'm I have much love and respect for by the way. Often times I feel we are saying basically the same thing, but maybe talking past each other. So please bear with me, but I want to try it one more time.

This is the direction I wish to come at this from. My official schooling really ended at the end of 8th grade, with 6th, 7th and 8th being private schools thank god. 9th and 10th were spent mostly skipping school, and smoking pot. So that was that. I knew the 3 R's atleast. Reading, Riting, and Rithmatic. I had the required teaching, and that teaching had come to it's completion.

As is evidenced though, it doesn't take a Master's Degree to to be able to effectively communicate with others, even on a forum with this high level of intellect.

For a decade or more I delved pretty deeply into Zen and Buddhism. This was a much needed teaching that I could not do myself, and I'm grateful for it. Those teachings still guide much of what I do day to day, although it's not so much of a conscious endeavor, it's now a way of life. Those great teachings gave me the gift of the 3 R's of the spiritual realms.

As is evidensed though, it doesn't take a lifetime in a monastery to be able to effectively communicate with others, even on a forum with this high level of spirituality.

So here's my bottom line with teachers. A teacher is needed to teach basic music notes and theory, but even graduates of Juilliard will likely never be mistaken for a Mozart or a Bach. It takes them just so far, and then it's basically "that's it kid, that's all we've got, the rest is up to you now".

I see people who choose to be lifetime academics, and I feel sorry for them. Their innate potential is forever limited to what acadamia has to offer, much of which is memorization, and not creativity.

I feel the same even with the greatest of Spiritual Teachings. I have all the respect in the world for them, of course, but I also think that they can be taken too far, and with too much diligence. Just like at Juilliard, even the best of teachers there would have to admit to even the brightest graduating student:

"Kid, that's all we've got, if you wanna be a Mozart, the rest is up to you now".

Cheers,
Fred

[another bob]

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
For a decade or more I delved pretty deeply into Zen and Buddhism. This was a much needed teaching that I could not do myself, and I'm grateful for it. Those teachings still guide much of what I do day to day, although it's not so much of a conscious endeavor, it's now a way of life. Those great teachings gave me the gift of the 3 R's of the spiritual realms.

Hiya Fred!

Normally, I don't like to post long articles, but because of your stated interest, I thought you might find the following talk worthwhile to ponder over. About 3/4 of the way down, the author, the renowned Chan (Zen) Master Sheng-yen, echoes your OP sentiment by noting:

Even an outstanding Chan master able to bring his student to this place will find himself unable to help any more. Although he has been to the other side, he cannot take you there with him, just as a mother's own eating and drinking cannot take the hunger away from the child who refuses to eat or drink. At that time, the only help he can give you is to tell you to discard all your experiences, your knowledge, and all the things and ideas that you think are the most reliable, most magnificent, and most real, even including your hope to get to the world of Chan. It is as if you were entering a sacred building. Before you do so, the guard tells you that you must not carry any weapon, that you must take off all your clothes, and that not only must you be completely naked you also have to leave your body and soul behind. Then you can enter.


The talk clears up a lot of misunderstanding about the spiritual practice of Zen, including the mistaken notion expressed here on the forum recently that Buddhism is all about achieving some kind of "merger with Buddha", or attaining "Oneness". He lays out 3 distinct stages of development in the clearest fashion I've ever encountered, and so I offer it here to you for your perusal, and that of any other members with similar interest:


"I wish to start by telling you that Chan is not the same as knowledge, yet knowledge is not completely apart from Chan. Chan is not just religion, yet the achievements of religion can be reached through Chan. Chan is not philosophy, yet philosophy can in no way exceed the scope of Chan. Chan is not science, yet the spirit of emphasising reality and experience is also required in Chan. Therefore, please do not try to explore the content of Chan motivated by mere curiosity, for Chan is not something new brought here [to the USA] by Orientals; Chan is present everywhere, in space without limit and time without end. However before the Buddhism of the East was propagated in the western world, the people of the West never knew of the existence of Chan. The Chan taught by Orientals in the West is not, in fact, the real Chan. It is the method to realise Chan. Chan was first discovered by a prince named Siddhartha Gautama (called Shakyamuni after his enlightenment), who was born in India about 2500 years ago. After he became enlightened and was called a Buddha, he taught us the method to know Chan. This method was transmitted from India to China, and then to Japan. In India it was called dhyana, which is pronounced 'Chan' in Chinese, and 'Zen' in Japanese. Actually, all three are identical.

Chan has universal and eternal existence. It has no need of any teacher to transmit it; what is transmitted by teachers is just the method by which one can personally experience this Chan.

Some people mistakenly understand Chan to be some kind of mysterious experience; others think that one can attain supernatural powers through the experience of Chan. Of course, the process of practising Chan meditation may cause various kinds of strange occurrences on the level of mental and physical sensation; and also, through the practice of unifying body and mind, one may be able to attain the mental power to control or alter external things. But such phenomena, which are looked upon as mysteries of religion, are not the aim of Chan practice, because they can only satisfy one's curiosity or megalomania, and cannot solve the actual problems of peoples lives.

Chan starts from the root of the problem. It does not start with the idea of conquering the external social and material environments, but starts with gaining thorough knowledge of one's own self. The moment you know what your self is, this 'I' that you now take to be yourself will simultaneously disappear. We call this new knowledge of the notion of self 'enlightenment' or 'seeing ones basic nature'. This is the beginning of helping you to thoroughly solve real problems. In the end, you will discover that you the individual, together with the whole of existence, are but one totality which cannot be divided.

Because you yourself have imperfections, you therefore feel the environment is imperfect. It is like a mirror with an uneven surface, the images reflected in it are also distorted. Or, it is like the surface of water disturbed by ripples, the moon reflected in it is irregular and unsettled. If the surface of the mirror is clear and smooth, or if the air on the surface of the water is still and the ripples calmed, then the reflection in the mirror and the moon in the water will be clear and exact. Therefore, from the point of view of Chan, the major cause of the pain and misfortune suffered by humanity is not the treacherous environment of the world in which we live, nor the dreadful society of humankind, but the fact that we have never been able to recognise our basic nature. So the method of Chan is not to direct us to evade reality, nor to shut our eyes like the African ostrich when enemies come, and bury our heads in the sand, thinking all problems are solved. Chan is not a self-hypnotising idealism.

By the practise of Chan one can eliminate the 'I'; not only the selfish, small 'I', but also the large 'I', which in philosophy is called 'Truth' or 'the Essence'. Only then is there absolute freedom. Thus an accomplished Chan practitioner never feels that any responsibility is a burden, nor does he feel the pressure that the conditions of life exert on people. He only feels that he is perpetually bringing the vitality of life into full activity. This is the expression of absolute freedom. Therefore the life of Chan is inevitably normal and positive, happy and open. The reason for this is that the practise of Chan will continually provide you with a means to excavate your precious mine of wisdom. The deeper the excavation, the higher the wisdom that is attained, until eventually you obtain all the wisdom of the entire universe. At that time, there is not a single thing in all of time and space that is not contained within the scope of your wisdom. At that stage wisdom becomes absolute; and since it is absolute, the term wisdom serves no further purpose. To be sure, at that stage the 'I' that motivated you to pursue such things as fame, wealth and power, or to escape from suffering and danger, has completely disappeared. What is more, even the wisdom which eliminated your 'I' becomes an unnecessary concept to you.

Of course, from the viewpoint of sudden enlightenment it is very easy for a Chan practitioner to reach this stage; nevertheless before reaching the gate of sudden enlightenment one must exert a great deal of effort on the journey. Otherwise the methods of Chan would be useless.

The Three Stages of Chan Meditation
At present [1977], the methods of meditation that I am teaching in the United States are divided into three stages.

Stage 1: To Balance the Development of Body and Mind in order to Attain Mental and Physical Health
With regard to the body, we stress the demonstration and correction of the postures of walking, standing, sitting and reclining. At the same time we teach various methods of physical exercise for walking, standing, sitting and reclining. They are unique exercise methods combining Indian Hatha Yoga and Chinese Tao-yin, and can bring physical health as well as results in meditation. Thus, one who practises Chan and has obtained good results will definitely have a strong body capable of enduring hardship. For the mind we emphasise the elimination of impatience, suspicion, anxiety, fear and frustration, so as to establish a state of self-confidence, determination, optimism, peace and stability.

A good student, after five or ten lessons here, will reach the first stage and be able to obtain results in the above two areas. One of our student's reports stated: "This kind of Chan class is especially good for someone like myself who, by profession or habit, has been used to having the brain functioning just about every minute of the day. I often find this Chan sitting very helpful as rest or relief. So even for no greater purpose, this Chan class has been very useful and should be highly recommended." [from Chan Magazine Vol.1; No.1]

In the first lesson of each class, I always ask each of the students individually his or her purpose in learning Chan whether he or she hoped to benefit the body, or sought help for the mind. The answers show that the latter were in the majority. This indicates that people living in American society today, under the strain and pressure of the present environment, suffer excessive tension, and many have lost their mental balance. Some are so severely tense that they have to consult a psychiatrist. Among those who come to learn Chan, I have one woman student, an outstanding lecturer in a well-known university, who asked me at the first meeting if I could help to relieve her from tense and uneasy moods. I told her that for a Chan practitioner this is a very simple matter. After five lessons she felt that Chan was a great blessing to her life.

The method of the first stage is very simple. Mainly it requires you to relax all the muscles and nerves of your entire body, and concentrate your attention on the method you have just learned. Because the tension of your muscles and nerves affects the activity of the brain, the key is therefore to reduce the burden on your brain. When your wandering thoughts and illusions decrease, your brain will gradually get a little rest. As its need of blood is reduced, more blood will circulate through the entire body. Meanwhile, because of the relaxation of the brain, all the muscles also relax; thus your blood vessels expand, you feel comfortable all over, your spirit feels fresh and alert, and your mental responses are naturally lighter and more lively.

If one's object of study is just to acquire physical and mental balance, and not to study meditation proper, then one will probably feel that the completion of the first stage is enough; but many students are not content with this, and indeed, some from the outset are looking for the goal of the second stage.

Stage 2: From the Sense of the Small 'I'
The first stage only helps to bring concentration to your confused mind; but when you practise concentration, other scattered thoughts continue to appear in your mind - sometimes many, sometimes a few. The concept of your purpose in practising Chan is for mental and physical benefits. This is a stage where your concept is purely self-centred. There is no mention of philosophical ideals or religious experience. When you reach the second stage, it will enable you to liberate yourself from the narrow view of the 'I'. In the second stage you begin to enter the stage of meditation. When you practise the method of cultivation taught by your teacher, you will enlarge the sphere of the outlook of the small 'I' until it coincides with time and space. The small 'I' merges into the entire universe, forming a unity. When you look inward, the depth is limitless; when you look outward, the breadth is limitless. Since you have joined and become one with universe, the world of your own body and mind no longer exists. What exists is the universe, which is infinite in depth and breadth. You yourself are not only a part of the universe, but also the totality of it.

When you achieve this experience in your Chan sitting, you will then understand what is meant in philosophy by principle or basic substance, and also what phenomenal existence is. All phenomena are the floating surface or perceptible layer of basic substance. From the shallow point of view, the phenomena have innumerable distinctions and each has different characteristics; in reality, the differences between the phenomena do not impair the totality of basic substance. For instance, on the planet on which we live, there are countless kinds of animals, plants, minerals, vapours, liquids and solids which incessantly arise, change and perish, constituting the phenomena of the earth. However, seen from another planet, the earth is just one body. When we have the opportunity to free ourselves from the bonds of self or subjective views, to assume the objective standpoint of the whole and observe all phenomena together, we can eliminate opposing and contradictory views. Take a tree as an example. From the standpoint of the individual leaves and branches, they are all distinct from one another, and can also be perceived to rub against one another. However, from the standpoint of the trunk and roots, all parts without exception are of one unified whole.

In the course of this second stage, you have realised that you not only have an independent individual existence, but you also have a universal existence together with this limitlessly deep and wide cosmos, and therefore the confrontation between you and the surrounding environment exists no more. Discontent, hatred, love, desire - in other words dispositions of rejecting and grasping disappear naturally, and you sense a feeling of peace and satisfaction. Because you have eliminated the selfish small 'I', you are able to look upon all people and all things as if they were phenomena produced from your own substance, and so you will love all people and all things in the same way you loved and watched over your small 'I'. This is the mind of a great philosopher.

Naturally, all great religious figures must have gone through the experiences of this second stage, where they free themselves from the confines of the small 'I', and discover that their own basic substance is none other than the existence of the entire universe, and that there is no difference between themselves and everything in the universe. All phenomena are manifestations of their own nature. They have the duty to love and watch over all things, and also have the right to manage them; just as we have the duty to love our own children and the right to manage the property that belongs to us This is the formation of the relationship between the deity and the multitude of things he created. Such people personify the basic substance of the universe which they experience through meditation, and create the belief in God. They substantiate this idea of a large 'I' the self-love of God and formulate the mission of being a saviour of the world or an emissary of God. They unify all phenomena and look upon them as objects that were created and are to be saved. Consequently, some religious figures think that the basic nature of their souls is the same as that of the deity, and that they are human incarnations of the deity. In this way, they consider themselves to be saviours of the world. Others think that although the basic nature of their souls is not identical to and inseparable from that of the deity, the phenomenon of their incarnation shows that they were sent to this world by God as messengers to promulgate God's intention.

Generally, when philosophers or religious figures reach the height of the second stage, they feel that their wisdom is unlimited, their power is infinite, and their lives are eternal. When the scope of the 'I' enlarges, self-confidence accordingly gets stronger, but this stronger self-confidence is in fact merely the unlimited escalation of a sense of superiority and pride. It is therefore termed large 'I', and does not mean that absolute freedom from vexations has been achieved.

Stage 3: From the Large 'I' to No 'I'
When one reaches the height of the second stage, he realises that the concept of the 'I' does not exist. But he has only abandoned the small 'I' and has not negated the concept of basic substance or the existence of God; you may call it Truth, the one and only God, the Almighty, the Unchanging Principle, or even the Buddha of Buddhism. If you think that it is real, then you are still in the realm of the big 'I' and have not left the sphere of philosophy and religion.

I must emphasise that the content of Chan does not appear until the third stage. Chan is unimaginable. It is neither a concept nor a feeling. It is impossible to describe it in any terms abstract or concrete. Though meditation is ordinarily the proper path leading to Chan, once you have arrived at the door of Chan, even the method of meditation is rendered useless. It is like using various means of transportation on a long journey. When you reach the final destination, you find a steep cliff standing right in front of you. It is so high you cannot see its top, and so wide that its side cannot be found. At this time a person who has been to the other side of the cliff comes to tell you that on the other side lies the world of Chan. When you scale it you will enter Chan. And yet, he tells you not to depend on any means of transportation to fly over, bypass, or penetrate through it, because it is infinity itself, and there is no way to scale it.

Even an outstanding Chan master able to bring his student to this place will find himself unable to help any more. Although he has been to the other side, he cannot take you there with him, just as a mother's own eating and drinking cannot take the hunger away from the child who refuses to eat or drink. At that time, the only help he can give you is to tell you to discard all your experiences, your knowledge, and all the things and ideas that you think are the most reliable, most magnificent, and most real, even including your hope to get to the world of Chan. It is as if you were entering a sacred building. Before you do so, the guard tells you that you must not carry any weapon, that you must take off all your clothes, and that not only must you be completely naked you also have to leave your body and soul behind. Then you can enter.

Because Chan is a world where there is no self, if there is still any attachment at all in your mind, there is no way you can harmonise with Chan. Therefore, Chan is the territory of the wise, and the territory of the brave. Not being wise, one would not believe that after he has abandoned all attachments another world could appear before him. Not being brave, one would find it very hard to discard everything he has accumulated in this life - ideals and knowledge, spiritual and material things.

You may ask what benefit we would get after making such great sacrifices to enter the world of Chan. Let me tell you that you cannot enter the world of Chan while this question is still with you. Looking for benefit, either for self or for others, is in the 'I'-oriented stage. The sixth patriarch of the Chan sect in China taught people that the way to enter the enlightenment of the realm of Chan is: "Neither think of good, nor think of evil". That is, you eliminate such opposing views as self and other, inner and outer, being and non-being, large and small, good and bad, vexation and Bodhi, illusion and enlightenment, false and true, or suffering of birth and death and joy of emancipation. Only then can the realm of Chan or enlightenment appear and bring you a new life.

This new life you have had all along, and yet you have never discovered it. In the Chan sect we call it your original face before you were born. This is not the small 'I' of body and mind, nor the large 'I' of the world and universe. This is absolute freedom, free from the misery of all vexations and bonds. To enter Chan as described above is not easy. Many people have studied and meditated for decades, and still have never gained entrance to the door of Chan. It will not be difficult, however, when your causes and conditions are mature, or if you happen to have a good Chan master who guides you with full attention. This Master may adopt various attitudes, actions and verbal expressions which may seem ridiculous to you, as indirect means of assisting you to achieve your goal speedily. And when the Master tells you that you have now entered the gate, you will suddenly realise that there is no gate to Chan. Before entering, you cannot see where the gate is, and after entering you find the gate non-existent. Otherwise there will be the distinction between inside and outside, the enlightened and the ignorant; and if there are such distinctions, then it is still not Chan.

When you are in the second stage, although you feel that the 'I' does not exist, the basic substance of the universe, or the Supreme Truth, still exists. Although you recognize that all the different phenomena are the extension of this basic substance or Supreme Truth, yet there still exists the opposition of basic substance versus external phenomena. Not until the distinctions of all phenomena disappear, and everything goes back to truth or Heaven, will you have absolute peace and unity. As long as the world of phenomena is still active, you cannot do away with conflict, calamity, suffering and crime. Therefore, although philosophers and religious figures perceive the peace of the original substance, they still have no way to get rid of the confusion of phenomena.

One who has entered Chan does not see basic substance and phenomena as two things standing in opposition to each other. They cannot even be illustrated as being the back and palm of a hand. This is because phenomena themselves are basic substance, and apart from phenomena there is no basic substance to be found. The reality of basic substance exists right in the unreality of phenomena, which change ceaselessly and have no constant form. This is the Truth. When you experience that phenomena are unreal, you will then be free from the concept of self and other, right and wrong, and free from the vexations of greed, hatred, worry and pride. You will not need to search for peace and purity, and you will not need to detest evil vexations and impurity. Although you live in the world of phenomenal reality, to you, any environment is a Buddha's Pure Land. To an unenlightened person, you are but an ordinary person. To you, all ordinary people are identical with Buddha. You will feel that your own self-nature is the same as that of all Buddhas, and the self-nature of Buddhas is universal throughout time and space. You will spontaneously apply your wisdom and wealth, giving to all sentient beings everywhere, throughout all time and space.

What I have said reveals a small part of the feeling of one who has entered the enlightened realm of Chan, and is also the course which one follows in order to depart from the small 'I' and arrive at the stage of no 'I'. Nevertheless, a newly enlightened person who has just entered the realm of Chan is still at the starting section of the entire passage of Chan. He is like one who has just had his first sip of port. He knows its taste now, but the wine will not remain in his mouth forever. The purpose of Chan is not just to let you take one sip, but to have your entire life merge with and dissolve in the wine, even, to the point that you forget the existence of yourself and the wine. After tasting the first sip of egolessness, how much farther must one travel?

What kinds of things remain to be seen?

I will tell you when I have the chance!"

1977

[Limor]

Hi Fred, I understand what you are saying, and I share your sentiment. we are students of life, there is no day passing without learning something, and the gift of being an aware person is even more clarifying and so very much gratifying.
A teacher, for me, is not a one who 'teach' , but a one who shares his human experience with another and out of that an insight is being born. it happened to me many times, also with Pie'n'eal's posts (talk about the devil :)


However,
Some people need teachers, some people need to teach, and some people like to be self-educated, as long as each of those meets the suitable other, all is fine and well.


~&^*~&*

Limor

[Ba-ba-Ra]

Love your take Fred.

IMO: A good teacher, like a good therapist, gives you tools and sends you on your way.

When one continues year after year to consistently go back to a teacher with every little problem, IMO, they are giving away their own power. The only way to ride a bike is to eventually take off the training wheels - if one keeps depending on the training wheels, one will never acquire their own balance.

[Fred Steeves]

Hi Bob, I'm going to have to read that bad boy after work dear sir, but I like what I saw so far in the first couple of paragraphs.

Hi Limor, of course, never let it be said that I'm anti teacher. Hell, if my next door neighbor were a Zen Master, you can bet I'd be hitting him/her up for over the fence conversation whenever possible. They just better not get preachy, or I'd whack em one.(LOL)

[Limor]

Hi Fred, as someone who has preaching tendencies, I oftentimes stop myself right before I am about to deliver it to another person, and than I preach to myself about not preaching to others... You know what I mean?

[<8>]

Thanks Fred..

I have also had lovely conversations with our dear Pie'n'eal (Tony), so I think I understand what youre saying here.
I believe there is a misinterpretation we easily overlook because we mistake "Understanding" for "Knowing".

"Don't mistake understanding for knowing" Because the knowing only arise after you had the experience.
That said, I have experienced people that seem to understand a lot, but they don't have a clue when you go deeper with the conversation.
And in my view is because they don't have the experience, they just have the understanding, and somethings you can't put words on.

I don't assume anything becuse I can only know what I have experienced so far, what I have experienced as of late.
Is when it makes the most sense to us, and we feel that we want to explain, to help out.
We are actually helping ourselves, because most of the time the person we trying to help are not listening, that person have already made his/her mind up no matter what we say.
But through going deeper into the subject in question, there is an realization how simple things really are when you have the experience.

So I have learned to not get caught up, because we rarely know the same thing, we all have our own unique experience, and that's the beauty of this experience I guess.



..8..

[Falcor]

i have read a few times from highly devoted spiritual people that they have reached some of the highest levels of awareness, but have trouble getting through to the next level

with some that are just on the cusp of breaking through to a higher level, just the presence of a teacher can bring them to the realization of that next level.

i have also heard stories of enlightened yogi's emanating much power from their solar plexus chakra to bring others into a meeting with their higher self. granted the person must be ready for the experience, i believe a teacher can be helpful at all levels of progress.

at the end of the day.....we all find our way back differently. but i do believe the quickest way to grow is through interaction with others

[Fred Steeves]

Posted by Falcor (here)
we all find our way back differently. but i do believe the quickest way to grow is through interaction with others

Bingo Falcor!!! Interaction here at Avalon has been the mother of all teachers for me. And you know what? I never ever saw it coming.

I actually look for teachers everywhere I go, except I look at it more as "those who help me remember". Something as simple as an odd look from one of my dogs at the right time can be such a piece to the great puzzle. If you want to get right down to brass tacks, we are surrounded by teachers every moment of our lives, we just need take notice

Oh sh!t, Limor, am I preaching???

[Falcor]

Posted by <8> (here)
"Don't mistake understanding for knowing" Because the knowing only arise after you had the experience.
That said, I have experienced people that seem to understand a lot, but they don't have a clue when you go deeper with the conversation.
And in my view is because they don't have the experience, they just have the understanding, and somethings you can't put words on.

this can be very true. i have had many go out of their way to tell me about how theyre into spirituality, but as they continue to talk and all i hear is an ego's idea, their level of awareness presents itself to me.

the mind can know about many things. it can read lots of books, it can claim to have lots of knowledge, it can form many opinions. but thats the limit of the mind, it can only 'know about'

to truly know, is to be that which is known.

So I have learned to not get caught up, because we rarely know the same thing, we all have our own unique experience, and that's the beauty of this experience I guess.
..8..

funny you say, it seems to me the only thing that we can ever truly know, is the same thing

[<8>]

Posted by Falcor (here)

Posted by <8> (here)
"Don't mistake understanding for knowing" Because the knowing only arise after you had the experience.
That said, I have experienced people that seem to understand a lot, but they don't have a clue when you go deeper with the conversation.
And in my view is because they don't have the experience, they just have the understanding, and somethings you can't put words on.

this can be very true. i have had many go out of their way to tell me about how theyre into spirituality, but as they continue to talk and all i hear is an ego's idea, their level of awareness presents itself to me.

the mind can know about many things. it can read lots of books, it can claim to have lots of knowledge, it can form many opinions. but thats the limit of the mind, it can only 'know about'

to truly know, is to be that which is known.

So I have learned to not get caught up, because we rarely know the same thing, we all have our own unique experience, and that's the beauty of this experience I guess.
..8..

funny you say, it seems to me the only thing that we can ever truly know, is the same thing

Thanks...

funny you say, it seems to me the only thing that we can ever truly know, is the same thing

Do you care to elaborate on this my friend?, because from the view of the human experience we all seem to have a slightly different view, even if we had the same experience.
The only experience that seems the same, is when we experience who we really are. An that is funny, because you can't really explain it with words..




..8..

[Carmen]

Great thread Fred. I quite often ponder on what or who is a good teacher. I personally get miles of inspiration from ordinary people who do extra-ordinary things. I love other people's stories of what they have done. This inspires me. Endless quotes of great masters are great but if they are not applied or able to be applied in every day life, then they are not much use to me. Stuff has to 'work', not just be philosophy.

Also, teachers have to be 'nice' in general. I'm too soft or too stubborn to put up with the old school of 'thou shalt!' or to be whacked over the head to learn something. I blossom with encouragement and acceptance. Harshness just means my barriers go up. If a teacher has 'money in the bank with me' my saying for a certain level of love and trust, then I don't mind being 'pulledup' over something I'm doing incorrectly. Bullies I particularly dislike, and a bullying teacher who puts people down is one of my biases!

Apart from being a long time student in the Ramtha school, I learn most from reading and then applying what I read. I'm the best experiment I have. I really love the thought that whatever I learn now or overcome now in this life, is with me for all time. So, I get to re-invent myself constantly, it only gets better. I love this sense of wonder and newness to a life that's gotten unstuck in many ways,from the attitudes that have limited me. It's ongoing though, I'll never be through with it.

[Rahkyt]

Great topic, Fred. Teachers are indeed valuable, but even the best teachers will say that they are still students themselves. I appreciate all of my teachers, those who share their wisdom and experiences that have led me further along the path determined by my own experiences. PA and places such as this are wonderful teaching tools, the interplay of souls is ever fateful.

Posted by another bob (here)
Because Chan is a world where there is no self, if there is still any attachment at all in your mind, there is no way you can harmonise with Chan. Therefore, Chan is the territory of the wise, and the territory of the brave. Not being wise, one would not believe that after he has abandoned all attachments another world could appear before him. Not being brave, one would find it very hard to discard everything he has accumulated in this life - ideals and knowledge, spiritual and material things.

Absolutely priceless write. Some should gain some benefit from you sharing it here, Bob.

It is possible to enter into this perception, have this experience, and then return to a normative life. But something is then different within. Certain knowledge of what lies beyond pervades the mental and spiritual and finds expression in all aspects of life. If the choice is made to carry on as previously, it is conscious and becomes an act of constant controlled folly, as Casteneda's Don Juan might explain. And yet, this explanation is limited, as the Yaqui sorcerer's insistence that compassion is an act of weakness negates the heart-centered realization of Samadhi and the Nirvanic state resulting from this infusion of what can only be described as experiential love (for lack of more descriptive term), completeness, oneness, wholeness, as the totality of consciousness.

[Limor]

I appreciate your choose of words, Carmen - "I re-invent myself constantly" , and I truly find myself empathic to your last sentence. In so many ways it is like untying the knot, the mixture of things we gatherd until an advanced stage in our lives, but are of no use to us now. I guess an interesting teacher can be a one who demonstrate things or have his own experience rather than one who only has the diagnosis and spill it out. although, in no way I reject anyone's observations, since an embodied diamond can be hidden in the most suprising places.

Originally posted by Fred:
Oh sh!t, Limor, am I preaching???

Before I answer that I need to know if you are identifying more with the right smiley, or the left one
A lot of psychology is hiding over there

[markpierre]

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Ecclesiastes I think. Gosh, who wrote that?

Someone here has an answer and can convey volumes of data to support a purposeless answer.
But did they hear what it said? Or care that there's a message?

At what point does the recognition of the repetition of the lessons become evident in as many languages as we can learn?
And the message gets in deep enough to begin to change the structure of the cells,
where all of the the mistaken memory and misinterpreted information has been stored and mutated into paralysis.
And you literally physically, emotionally, spiritually and energetically become the 'object' of the lesson,
and you can no longer 'be' something else?

'Learning' is unlearning what we thought we knew. Nothing more. And then we're free.

It's all a slow and excruciating and eventually thankfully a fast and exciting process of reestablishing communication
from totality and through the mind and down into the earth and back out through the heart.
That covers most of the 'teachings' doesn't it?

And then what do you do? Find another way to say it? For the benefit of whom?

Here are my teachers:
Anxiety, misguided trust and fraudulent doctors, Jim Beam, Bruce Springsteen, an illuminated car salesman,
abandonment, betrayal, devastation, my ignorant self,
discipline, mySelf, and Providence.
And a whole lot of accumulated irrelevant and largely false information that crushed me into letting go.
That was a different sort of path. Or very ordinary.

This is a weird place.

[Fred Steeves]

Posted by Limor (here)

Originally posted by Fred:
Oh sh!t, Limor, am I preaching???

Before I answer that I need to know if you are identifying more with the right smiley, or the left one
A lot of psychology is hiding over there

Good question Limor, it's both actually. The good Fred slapping the bad Fred. Uh oh, have I just revealed my schizophrenic side?

[13th Warrior]

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)

Posted by Falcor (here)
we all find our way back differently. but i do believe the quickest way to grow is through interaction with others

Bingo Falcor!!! Interaction here at Avalon has been the mother of all teachers for me. And you know what? I never ever saw it coming.

I actually look for teachers everywhere I go, except I look at it more as "those who help me remember". Something as simple as an odd look from one of my dogs at the right time can be such a piece to the great puzzle. If you want to get right down to brass tacks, we are surrounded by teachers every moment of our lives, we just need take notice

Oh sh!t, Limor, am I preaching???

This is true for me as well; if you're preaching then you're preaching to the choir...

I'm glad you said it though; i don't see it said often enough!

[Limor]

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)

Posted by Limor (here)

Originally posted by Fred:
Oh sh!t, Limor, am I preaching???

Before I answer that I need to know if you are identifying more with the right smiley, or the left one
A lot of psychology is hiding over there

Good question Limor, it's both actually. The good Fred slapping the bad Fred. Uh oh, have I just revealed my schizophrenic side?

No, only the many facets that we all have. Thank you

[Jenci]

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)

I feel the same even with the greatest of Spiritual Teachings. I have all the respect in the world for them, of course, but I also think that they can be taken too far, and with too much diligence. Just like at Juilliard, even the best of teachers there would have to admit to even the brightest graduating student:

"Kid, that's all we've got, if you wanna be a Mozart, the rest is up to you now".

Hi Fred,

We are talking here about "learning" how to realise our true nature, so no we don't need a teacher because that would be a direct contradiction to what we are "learning".


....but to get to the point where we understand that we don't need a teacher for this, we may need a teacher to help us understand that we don't need a teacher.


We can only realise our true nature in the absence of everything else, which is why everything has to go to do this - all needs, all desires, all concepts, all ideas, all beliefs etc. They all have to go!

Just saying "I don't need a teacher" will not work here because all that will happen is the attachment that we have to a teacher will transfer to something else. We need to get to the point where the need for the teacher falls away and in the absence of the need for a teacher, something else will be revealed.

The way to move to the point of the need for the teacher falling away, is to uncover what is driving the need. Our beliefs can be very powerful and keep us attached to many things, fuelling desires and needs. Some beliefs can be incredibly subtle and we may not even realise that we have a belief which is causing us to act in a certain way.

A good starting point to uncovering the belief for the need for a teacher is to notice any resistance to the idea that one is not needed. Our resistance can speak volumes if we pay attention to it.


Sometimes a belief, which is doing the holding on, is buried beneath lots of other beliefs and it may take a lot of sincerity, honesty and patience to dig down and uncover it and then pull it up by the root.

Jeanette

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Posted by markpierre (here)
And a whole lot of accumulated irrelevant and largely false information that crushed me into letting go.
That was a different sort of path. Or very ordinary.

That was very ordinary, Mark !


Jeanette

[Jenci]

Posted by another bob (here)
Stage 3: From the Large 'I' to No 'I'
When one reaches the height of the second stage, he realises that the concept of the 'I' does not exist. But he has only abandoned the small 'I' and has not negated the concept of basic substance or the existence of God; you may call it Truth, the one and only God, the Almighty, the Unchanging Principle, or even the Buddha of Buddhism. If you think that it is real, then you are still in the realm of the big 'I' and have not left the sphere of philosophy and religion.

That's an excellent piece of writing, Bob. Well worth reading. Thanks for posting.
Jeanette