Teachers (Revisited)

[Dorjezigzag]

"Letting everything end" means to stand in the moment completely naked of attachment to any and all ideas, concepts, hopes, preferences, and experiences. Simply put, it means to stop strategizing, controlling, manipulating, and running away from yourself--and to simply be

Many talk the talk,
few walk the walk

[pie'n'eal]

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[Unified Serenity]

blink...............................

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[Rahkyt]

Posted by Jenci (here)
I love this piece written about the teacher Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj by someone who knew him.

Maharaj was clearly mischievous and loved to be “challenged” in discussion. When confronted by a questioner, the subsequent “battle royal” that ensued seemed to make his day. The nonchalance with which Maharaj approached his cancer clearly reflected the depth of his enlightenment and complete freedom of concern about death. Maharaj’s sense of being an individual entity had “died” many years before; I believe that as part of a great soul’s realization, such a one would have experienced a kind of physical death, almost like a “dress rehearsal” for the real event.

Maharaj, was not inclined to live up to any prevailing definitions of sainthood, at least so far as diet and personal habits were concerned. Consistent with the caste into which he was born, he included meat as part of his diet. However, his habit of smoking dismayed some of those who visited him and even led a few to dismiss him outright. Despite several indignant protests over his incessant smoking of biddies (hand-made Indian cigarettes), Maharaj, when asked why an enlightened man continued to smoke, responded: “Even after enlightenment the body is allowed to continue a few of its habits and to me it is not a big deal. Wake up, look through apparent appearances, examine your own righteousness and judgment, and separate the wheat from the chaff. If you can’t see beyond surface appearance and get caught up in your superficial judgments, then you have no business being here with me.”

Just prior to my visiting Maharaj and after he was diagnosed with cancer, he had apparently given in to the entreaties of his close devotees to stop smoking. But to my surprise, I found him sneaking a daily dose of nicotine through the surreptitious use of snuff; he was truly a noncompliant rascal! When he knew that I had uncovered his trickery, he gave me a wonderful sly grin with a glint in his eye—the kind you usually see in the eyes of children for whom the thirst for play had not been squelched. I still remember this moment as if it were yesterday.

Gurdjieff used to drink like a fish and get his disciples drunk, it is said, to know their unconscious behavior. It is also said that Osho loved sex, took drugs (nitrous oxide) and the drama of his last years seems as worldly as it gets. Enlightenment seems not to be any indicator of ultimate behavior, especially when it comes to conforming to any set standard of "good" or "evil".

Or maybe, the teachers are just really creative in how they get their students to learn.

[Fred Steeves]

Posted by Rahkyt (here)

Gurdjieff used to drink like a fish and get his disciples drunk, it is said, to know their unconscious behavior. It is also said that Osho loved sex, took drugs (nitrous oxide) and the drama of his last years seems as worldly as it gets. Enlightenment seems not to be any indicator of ultimate behavior, especially when it comes to conforming to any set standard of "good" or "evil".

Or maybe, the teachers are just really creative in how they get their students to learn.

Well thank you Rahkyt for the green light to keep on sucking down the frosty cold Budweisers! Hooray!

[another bob]

Posted by Rahkyt (here)
Or maybe, the teachers are just really creative in how they get their students to learn.

1973

It was Sasaki Roshi's birthday, and we had all gathered around him in the dining hall to celebrate. He sat at the head of the table, and asked for a cigarette. I had never seen him smoke before, so I wondered if this was some sort of celebratory thing. Somebody gave him a Marlboro Lite, which he lit and promptly put out with a disgusted face. Recognizing the problem, I reached into my robe and pulled out a pack of Camel non-filters and offered him one.

He lit it, smiled, and said, "I understand you!"

"What do you understand, Roshi?" I asked.

"I am going to give you a diamond gift on my birthday!" he replied.

He closed his eyes for a moment and became perfectly still. After a few moments he opened them, and spoke in clear English, emphasizing each word:

"Like

a dream,

a bubble

on a stream,

a shadow,

a drop

of dew . . .

a flash

of lightning

in a dark

sky,

see all

as

thus."


Then he just smiled and smiled.

We all smiled along.

It was a Happy Birthday!

[another bob]

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
Well thank you Rahkyt for the green light to keep on sucking down the frosty cold Budweisers! Hooray!

Heya Fred!

Another quick story, related somewhat:

Once in the Sanzen room, where students went before the Master to express their understanding, Roshi told me that I had a good understanding of the Absolute, but was too attached to it. He said I was on my way to sainthood, but the purpose of Zen was not to become a saint. He told me I needed to plunge fully into the objective world, in order to find the meeting place, or matrix, of "plus and minus", and so unify them.
Then he said that I should "read dirty books". "I like dirty books!", he smiled. I supposed that he meant porn, which held little interest for me. I pondered over his statement when I left the room, and when I go back to my cabin later that day, I found a new student had moved in. On his bed was spread out a few porn magazines, and I had to crack up at the way the universe plays!

[Carmen]

Posted by another bob (here)
Life is the only teacher

Excerpts from the book ‘As It Is’ by Tony Parsons.

Question: There have been enlightened masters who have had great charisma and who've also been capable of magic, manifestation and so on. People have reported very powerful physical, emotional and mental experiences not only in the master’s presence, but even thousands of miles away. What’s that all about?

Tony Parsons: It’s about someone who has a lot of charisma and the gift of manifestation or magic. It’s about nothing more than anything else of any relevance inside the wheel of life. Someone recently told me that she looked into the eyes of a so-called master and vanished for a moment. But if it meant anything, why was she still asking questions? Nothing of any relevance is happening here with these phenomena that is any different or more liberating than selling hamburgers in the market place. The difficulty arises when people believe that these kind of events somehow vindicate some sort of personal enlightenment... they then also come to revere these people, and this creates a schism. They see these apparently magnificent beings and immediately come to believe that they can never attain such a level of importance. This is another way in which awakening is avoided. It is of course the infinite expression again wishing to have this experience, but so is my response to this question, and so is your sitting there and hearing it.

What we are talking about here today is the ordinary and the incredibly breathtaking magnificence of the ordinary. It is only ever and always simple, seemingly unremarkable and yet we pass it by and look for magic. Immediately, here, is the seeing of what we are. If there is a need in people to see magic there will always be magicians to fulfill that need, but none of this is relevant to awakening.

Question: So what do we look for in a teacher?

Someone who gives you absolutely nothing and leaves you feeling helpless. Then it is possible that you are left only with what is. If someone tells you that there’s something that you can do or there is a certain way that you can be in order for awakening to happen, they are simply feeding your own avoidance.

Question: What do you mean by that?

We all have a deep longing and a deep fear of the discovery of what we are, and the mind devises any way it can to avoid this discovery. The most effective way it avoids awakening is to seek it. When there begins to be an opening up to the revolutionary possibility that is being communicated here, then the mind sees this as a threat. I am finding with some people that for a time their strongest fears arise and they feel they want to run away or try to do something about being overwhelmed by those fears. This can be a pivotal period, and often escape routes are sought.
Some who hear this message will move away at some point to find a teacher who seems to be giving them something... a process or way of being such as transcending thought, vanquishing the ego, being honest, being moral, and so on. Others will also be very attracted to those who will offer to help them attain something they call enlightenment. Usually these teachers imply that in some way or other they are especially unique, and they will often act in such a way as to create a dependency in the follower. All of this personalized teaching is irrelevant to awakening, but it intrigues and satisfied the mind enormously, for a while.

Question: Is a guru needed at all?

Life is the only guru. Everything that has so far happened for you is your teaching and is absolutely appropriate for your awakening. At this moment it is sitting in this room and hearing these words and possibly allowing them to go deeply inside. It is the seed that is scattered and drops onto fertile or infertile ground. You are ready to hear when you are ready to hear. You don’t need anything except that which you have. isn't that wonderful? So don’t get worried about what you need or don’t need. All is provided. Let go and rest in that which is and you will surely meet the beloved and rediscover your original nature.

Q: How can you recognize a real or true guru?

You can’t. You can however come to see that there is no such thing as the truth, there is only what is, as it is right now. Whoever you meet along the way, that’s how it’s meant to be. If you sit with someone who appears to be a great master, but speaks from ignorance, that is the infinite expression. If you listen to someone who is awakened and speaks with clarity, that is also the infinite expression, but there’s no guarantee that you will hear. For some people they feel the need to be with somebody who seems to be very special and magical and important. I would say seek out a teacher who gives you nothing at all, no hope, no method, no personal offer to take you there, because of course there isn't anywhere to go. Look for someone who destroys all of your belief systems and who is always throwing you back onto what is, right here. Any teaching that advises you that you need to be serious or honest or purified or changed through some process, is simply not relevant. I have met people who have been with very powerful eastern teachers and who have had many so-called spiritual experiences. These people have considerable difficulty in accepting and living with the idea of the divine being in the ordinary. They still seek the excitement of these so-called spiritual experiences, and have very little time for the idea that a single footstep could be miraculous. As a consequence these people are often a bit lost in the ordinary world, and still look for the extraordinary wherever they can.

Q; But isn't enlightenment an extraordinary thing?

No, not at all, that’s the point. Enlightenment is our natural and ordinary way of being. In comparison with separation, awakening is extraordinary. Suddenly there is no longer a feeling of alienation. Nothing in particular changes in one’s life except the perception of everything.

Q: What is the seeker/teacher relationship?

Again there isn't one. In awakening there is no relationship because relationship implies two apart who have some kind of agreement to be with each other. If the so-called teacher is no longer invested in separation, and has moved beyond the illusion of self-hood, then who can relate? What is seen in that form by the seeker is a freedom, a spaciousness, a celebration which resonates. This is only a recognition of what the seeker already is. You are the light, simply rest in that and celebrate your natural birthright.

Q: How did your teacher help you?

I have never had a teacher, or seen anyone as a master. I knew when I was a kid that life must be the teacher. I prefer the word invitation. This was confirmed when walking across the park.

That's a very interesting passage Bob. I'll never forget back at the end of the eighties travelling to America to go to a Ramtha event for the first time. I went, having pushed out the walls of my grid, my belief system, to include new agey stuff, it was all very exciting. I thought I would push the walls out more when I learned more stuff from Ramtha! Well, my god, all my belief systems, my walls, we're totally shattered. I felt like a lone survivor in the little life raft on an empty sea. Nothing that I knew survived the experience. The whole lot was cleaned out!! I went home to spend many years dealing with, understanding, all my karmic, connections, my habitual thinking. Talk about going through the fire and I was totally alone in this endeavour. No one understood what the hell I was on about or what I was going through. It was one hell of an initiation. I didn't actually get back to the Ramtha school again for over ten years, but I had enough homework to be getting on with!! I didn't go back until I noticed Ramtha's predictions coming true and I had dealt with my crap! It was time for more learning!!

[another bob]

Posted by Carmen (here)
It was time for more learning!!

Thanks so much, Carmen! I feel that sharing our personal experiences with teachers really helps to round out this consideration and ground it in our actual lives.

[M6*]

Very well said, Limor! M6*

[Jenci]

Posted by Rahkyt (here)
Gurdjieff used to drink like a fish and get his disciples drunk, it is said, to know their unconscious behavior. It is also said that Osho loved sex, took drugs (nitrous oxide) and the drama of his last years seems as worldly as it gets. Enlightenment seems not to be any indicator of ultimate behavior, especially when it comes to conforming to any set standard of "good" or "evil".

Or maybe, the teachers are just really creative in how they get their students to learn.

Or maybe the teachers knew something that the students didn't.

The student thinks that the human life is about them becoming enlightened.

If that is the case, it suggests that before this life they are unenlightened.

Now maybe the teacher has realised that this life is not about enlightenment.

And that it's about experiencing life as a human - life, feel, hear, see, smell, taste, touch, think, food, drink, drugs, sex, music, mountains, rivers, teachers, students.........


Why waste the opportunity of life trying to be something that we already are. We already free.
It's not freedom from, it's freedom to...




Jeanette

[Fred Steeves]

Posted by Jenci (here)

Posted by Rahkyt (here)
Gurdjieff used to drink like a fish and get his disciples drunk, it is said, to know their unconscious behavior. It is also said that Osho loved sex, took drugs (nitrous oxide) and the drama of his last years seems as worldly as it gets. Enlightenment seems not to be any indicator of ultimate behavior, especially when it comes to conforming to any set standard of "good" or "evil".

Or maybe, the teachers are just really creative in how they get their students to learn.

Or maybe the teachers knew something that the students didn't.

The student thinks that the human life is about them becoming enlightened.

If that is the case, it suggests that before this life they are unenlightened.

Now maybe the teacher has realised that this life is not about enlightenment.

And that it's about experiencing life as a human - life, feel, hear, see, smell, taste, touch, think, food, drink, drugs, sex, music, mountains, rivers, teachers, students.........


Why waste the opportunity of life trying to be something that we already are. We already free.
It's not freedom from, it's freedom to...

Yes, I have a feeling that once this overall experience has seen it's rightful completion, we will look back on it as a treasured experience, but also one that we would not care to repeat. Funny dat.

[Rahkyt]

Posted by Jenci (here)
Or maybe the teachers knew something that the students didn't.

The student thinks that the human life is about them becoming enlightened.

If that is the case, it suggests that before this life they are unenlightened.

Now maybe the teacher has realised that this life is not about enlightenment.

And that it's about experiencing life as a human - life, feel, hear, see, smell, taste, touch, think, food, drink, drugs, sex, music, mountains, rivers, teachers, students.........


Why waste the opportunity of life trying to be something that we already are. We already free.
It's not freedom from, it's freedom to...

LOL We take this discussion wherever we go.

There are, strictly speaking, no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity. ~ Shunryu Suzuki

I read this quote when someone else here on the forum posted it some time ago and it has remained with me ever since. It comes up in thought sometimes as I'm driving, or other times, right before I fall asleep. I think it is a concise statement of what you just wrote, Jenci ...

... there is the perception that Bob addressed in his most recent blog entry that talks about some of the misperceptions surrounding the process and what the state actually represents, as well as the potential failings for those who assume the mantle of teacher and take on the illusion of mastery.

Everything is everything.

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3_dOWYHS7I

[Ivanhoe]

I just wanted to thank you all for this wonderful conversation.
Silence is golden.
I'd add my two cents, but I've only got a penny. LOL

[Jenci]

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)

Yes, I have a feeling that once this overall experience has seen it's rightful completion, we will look back on it as a treasured experience, but also one that we would not care to repeat. Funny dat.

...or maybe we won't, Fred.

Maybe the idea that we would not care to repeat this experience is only something that happens in the human experience.

Even in a profound realisation of what we truly are, beyond all the illusion, the ego grasping of still seeking a better experience can be found hiding. And I keep finding it

Jeanette

[another bob]

Posted by Jenci (here)
Even in a profound realisation of what we truly are, beyond all the illusion, the ego grasping of still seeking a better experience can be found hiding. And I keep finding it

Jeanette

Q: Was your realization sudden or gradual?

Nisargadatta Maharaj: Neither. One is what one is, timelessly. It is the mind that realizes when it gets cleared of desires and fears.

Q: Even the desire for realization?

M: The desire to put an end to all desires is a most peculiar desire, just like the fear of being afraid is a most peculiar fear. One stops you from grabbing and the other from running. You may use the same words, but the states are not the same. The one who seeks realization is not addicted to desires; he is a seeker who goes against desire, not with it.
A general longing for liberation is only the beginning; to find the proper means and use them is the next step. The seeker has only one goal in view; to find their own true being. Of all desires it is the most ambitious, for nothing and nobody can satisfy it; the seeker and the sought are one, and the search alone matters.

Q: The search will come to an end. The seeker will remain.

M: No, the seeker will dissolve, the search will remain. The search is the ultimate and timeless reality.

Q: Search means lacking, wanting, incompleteness and imperfection.

M: No, it means refusal and rejection of the incomplete and the imperfect. The search for reality is itself the movement of reality. In a way, all search is for the real bliss, or the bliss of the real. By search we mean the search for oneself as the root of being conscious, as the light beyond the mind. This search will never end, as long as there remains a restless craving for anything else, and only then can real progress take place.
One has to understand that the search for reality, or God, or Guru, and the search for the self, are the same. When one is found, all are found. When ‘I am’ and ‘God is’ become in your mind indistinguishable, then something will happen and you will know without a trace of doubt that God is, because you are -- you are, because God is. The two are one.

[Ceedub]

Posted by Jenci (here)

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)

Yes, I have a feeling that once this overall experience has seen it's rightful completion, we will look back on it as a treasured experience, but also one that we would not care to repeat. Funny dat.

...or maybe we won't, Fred.

Maybe the idea that we would not care to repeat this experience is only something that happens in the human experience.

Even in a profound realisation of what we truly are, beyond all the illusion, the ego grasping of still seeking a better experience can be found hiding. And I keep finding it

Jeanette

I've been stuck on this paradox since I was a young man. In my formative years I experienced an above average amount of loss and turmoil (by American standards anyway). In taking stock of my life it is obvious that these early difficulties were insturmental in shaping my 'character' and building spiritual strength or more accurately, recognizing my own inate strength of character.

If were raising children I feel I would be perplexed because I would never subject my children to suffering obviously, but I think we can all see easily enough that people who do not experience a certain degree of suffering don't seem to develop the same kind of inner strength as those who overcome suffering and adversity. Or to paraphrase Sun Tsu, "in order for a general to be a great general he must first suffer defeat in battle".

Likewise children of afluent families seem to be at risk of growing up underdeveloped for similar reasons. But as a parent I would want to be afluent so that my children could have the best education and opportunities for experience only afforded the well to do. Although it could be said that this is just another obstacle to overcome and grow through.

I suppose this is a question without an answer and thus no question at all. After a few decades of struggle and strife I can't say that my conscious mind is eager to repeat the experience but something tells me when the ride is over I'll be sprinting back to get to the head of the queue. I might even choose to raise the degree of difficulty another notch... ughh, I could just see myself doing that too, dang.


CW

[Fred Steeves]

"A hero has faced it all: He need not be undefeated, but he must be undaunted".

Andrew Bernstein


True dat...

[Dorjezigzag]

It is so beautiful that so many of you have shared the fine words of so many gurus, here are some words from a very special guru, the love guru!

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJRDVwL1qwM

[21CC]

When the student is ready the teacher appears!