Teachers (Revisited)

[Fred Steeves]

Posted by Ceedub (here)

This time it was trade school, automotive tech... I needed a job. Everything that is taught in such programs is useful (unlike my previous educational experiences). This time the lessons I should have already gotten were unavoidable. In any honest type of trade, incompetence has nowhere to hide (well there are exceptions to prove the rule I guess). You are responsible for every decision and action you make and every action has consequences that are totally obvious. Your skill and knowledge, great or small, is totally apparent. You are judged by your success which is laid bare for all to see (embarrasingly so). This is why we call these trades "honest work". You can't reallly pretend you fixed something if it still doesn't work.

The unavoidable lesson was that all of the skills and knowledge learned through the autotech program were helpful and necessary but there was just no substitute for experience. You emerge from such a program an apprentice and are still all but worthless, even a hazard, in a real shop. There you go kid, that's all we've got. The foundation was necessary but not sufficient to earn the title of master tech. Only through experience can you become a master and in the real world of automovive repair, the master tech knows well that the learning never stops. Experience, experience, experience... this is why we are here.

Hi Ceedub, I like your story. Being a carpenter by trade, and now a contractor, I'd say you're dead on! In my case, if I hang a door and it's crooked, or doesn't quite close right, it's rather difficult to convince the customer that this is simply not so.(LOL) Virtually every skill I have is from a wide variety of people over the last 25 something years. A small handful of them were very demanding master carpenters, to whom I'm grateful at having had the opportunity to see how they work, and attempt to duplicate their precision. Most though were prime examples of how not to operate, and yet they were also teachers.

But it's now up to me to wind it all together, stamp my name to it, and produce my own unique creations, in my own unique way. I don't think there is a teacher who can do that for me. It's right back to "there ya go kid, you've got the fundamentals down, now go get em".

Cheers,
Fred

[Carmen]

I liken the Ramtha school I am a student of, to a spiritual university. It too, is practical though. Every learning has to be experienced through certain disciplines, such as blindfolded archery, remote view, sending and receiving (mind to mind) labyrinth, (where the objective is to find the centre of a huge maze while blindfolded, going through wormholes and up ladders with crowds of people doing the same thing), the field, (where you draw on a card something you wish to manifest or change, it is put on the fence and again, blindfolded one has to focus and go to the card) the Inner GodSelf can achieve all these disciplines. For the emotional, personality self, the disciplines are impossible.

Some beginning students come to school thinking they are psychics. The disciplines soon sort out how talented they are. Where I stayed at one event, my next door caravan neighbours were a delightful couple, but the lady had quite a meltdown, she is quite a well known psychic and has her own radio show. She sort of came expecting instant results! Well, her well meaning husband, who only came to accompany her really, reached the middle of the labyrinth on his first go and his wife couldn't achieve any of the disciplines! She was devastated and he kinda down played his achievement to placate her. It was quite an initiation for both of them. They were great in the end. My point of telling you all this is the primary importance of hands on experience. There is no substitute and and a great teacher points the way but cannot do it for you.

[Fred Steeves]

Posted by Carmen (here)

Some beginning students come to school thinking they are psychics. The disciplines soon sort out how talented they are. Where I stayed at one event, my next door caravan neighbours were a delightful couple, but the lady had quite a meltdown, she is quite a well known psychic and has her own radio show. She sort of came expecting instant results! Well, her well meaning husband, who only came to accompany her really, reached the middle of the labyrinth on his first go and his wife couldn't achieve any of the disciplines! She was devastated and he kinda down played his achievement to placate her. It was quite an initiation for both of them. They were great in the end. My point of telling you all this is the primary importance of hands on experience. There is no substitute and and a great teacher points the way but cannot do it for you.

Heya Carmen, I'm glad things turned out o.k. for that couple, that demonstrates a mature relationship for sure. But how many times have we seen it in very simplistic terms, where say a couple goes on a day long fishing trip, the woman winds up grabbing the hero's catch, and the silly husband goes home in a huff. (LOL)

My lovely wife surprises the living hell out of me from time to time with things Carmen. She's not really much into this "stuff", so to speak anyway, yet she listens quietly, and sometimes pops out with a tought or insight that makes me just stop, look at her, and say something like "damn, I never thought about it that way before". I like that though, and at times she'll stun me with a question that takes me a day or two to come back with a reasonable response. This is a good thing, and I reckon we each married a teacher.

[Fred Steeves]

Rahkyt, during this lovely evening thunderstorm we're getting, I was going back to the Castaneda talk. Maybe I'm now arguing for teachers(LOL), go figure man. Another of Don Juan's gold nuggets I've scooped up is "And Yet", from the book I recently read for the third time "The Power Of Silence". But this reading was the first time I actually caught it.

From what I recall right off hand, is Don Juan saying basically that in the way of the warrior, there is always "And Yet". My interpretation? "And there he stood, the last living human on Earth, staring down the steamroller of destruction of this now living and breathing New World Order. He was now alone, all hope lost of course, "And Yet..."

Cheers,
Fred

[Fred Steeves]

You know, I just recalled another old and great Teacher: The Teacher "Failure". Church summer camp, a week on the lake, one of my first times away from Mom and Dad. I was probably 11 or 12, but "the bosses" were 16 or 17. This great failure came right towards the end, the big day when everyone learns to water ski, before the big bon fire that night to end things.

I was rather intimidated of that big screaming motorboat racing to and from shore all day, letting all my peers experience their first time walking on water. I mainly kept to the side of the action, just messing around with the same friends who were awaiting their turn. The day grew close to the end, and the call was broadly and loudly put out to come forth, all who haven't yet had their turn on skis.

I wanted to, and I was also so intimidated... But at last call I sucked it up and volunteered myself to the attending staff. Long story short? I fell right over, spitting and coughing lake water, maybe 4-5 times in a row, in front of everybody of course. All of my buds had done it successfully, and then I had failed miserably to cap things off.

It wasn't that big of deal, really, I just never forgot. Turns out though, Failure is one of those old buzzards back home who will be receiving free drinks from me when I arrive...

[Jenci]

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
Rahkyt, during this lovely evening thunderstorm we're getting, I was going back to the Castaneda talk. Maybe I'm now arguing for teachers(LOL), go figure man. Another of Don Juan's gold nuggets I've scooped up is "And Yet", from the book I recently read for the third time "The Power Of Silence". But this reading was the first time I actually caught it.

From what I recall right off hand, is Don Juan saying basically that in the way of the warrior, there is always "And Yet". My interpretation? "And there he stood, the last living human on Earth, staring down the steamroller of destruction of this now living and breathing New World Order. He was now alone, all hope lost of course, "And Yet..."

Cheers,
Fred

Hi Fred, there is power in the silence!


Another aspect to this subject of teachers, is the need to teach others. Often we learn something and then think it is our job to go out there and teach everyone else what we know. But it's not.

Even this desire to teach must be disregarded as we see that this is the ego, using what has been learned to re-establish its identity.

In fact the more we learn, the quieter we become.

Ramana Maharshi very often used to teach in silence.

Verse 56 of the Tao te Ching says:

"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."

If you spend a long period of time in study and self-cultivation, you will enter Tao. By doing so, you also enter a world of extra-ordinary perceptions. You experience unimaginable things, receive thoughts and learning as if from nowhere, perceive theings that could be classified as prescient.

Yet if you try to communicate what you experience, there is no one to understand you, no one who will believe you. The more you walk this road, the farther you are from the ordinary ways of society. You may see the truth, but you will find that peopel would rather listen to politicians, performers, and charlatans.

If you are known as a follower of Tao, people may seek you out, but they are seldom the ones who will truly understand Tao. They are people who would exploit Tao as a crutch. To speak to them of the wonders you have seen if often to engage in a futile bout of miscommunication. That is why it is said that those who know do not speak.

Why not simply stay quiet? Enjoy Tao as you will. Let others think you are dumb. Inside yourself, you will know the joy of Tao's mysteries. If you meet someone who can profit by your experience, you should share. But if you are merely a wanderer in a crown of strangers, it is wisdom to be silent.


365 Tao:Daily Mediations by Deng Ming-Dao

[Ceedub]

Hi Jenci,

"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."

Very a' propos. Also something from "The Ra Material" has always stuck with me. They always spoke of concepts such as teaching in the dualistic form so instead of "teaching" they use the phrase "learn/teach". You can't do just one. It sometimes has had me sounding like a crazy person when I speak (if I knew I would be quiet) but I find it very useful.

CW

[Jenci]

Posted by Ceedub (here)
Hi Jenci,

"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."

Very a' propos. Also something from "The Ra Material" has always stuck with me. They always spoke of concepts such as teaching in the dualistic form so instead of "teaching" they use the phrase "learn/teach". You can't do just one. It sometimes has had me sounding like a crazy person when I speak (if I knew I would be quiet) but I find it very useful.

CW

Hi CW

I found the more I learned, the more I wanted to teach. I wanted to tell the whole world what I had learned and shake people to wake them up to seeing what I could see.

And then I realised the more I wanted to teach, it meant the more I needed to learn.

Jeanette

[Ceedub]

Posted by Jenci (here)

Posted by Ceedub (here)
Hi Jenci,

"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."

Very a' propos. Also something from "The Ra Material" has always stuck with me. They always spoke of concepts such as teaching in the dualistic form so instead of "teaching" they use the phrase "learn/teach". You can't do just one. It sometimes has had me sounding like a crazy person when I speak (if I knew I would be quiet) but I find it very useful.

CW

Hi CW

I found the more I learned, the more I wanted to teach. I wanted to tell the whole world what I had learned and shake people to wake them up to seeing what I could see.

And then I realised the more I wanted to teach, it meant the more I needed to learn.

Jeanette

Well said, I feel the same. I was doing a lot of shaking as my learning accellerated and I always met with frustration. I mostly hold my tongue now. (not a statement of knowledge mind you, I've just learned to shut it) You are on the mark with what you said about ego establishing itself too. It seems more often than not our attempts to be of service to others are a trick of the ego.

I've been thinking about free will lately and coming to some new understandings. I think that I've been violating others free will by pushing knowledge on them. Proving something is true may violate anothers will to believe otherwise, hence friction or disconnect. That may be at the root of the trouble. These days I'm very sensetive with free will as it's tricky business.

CW

[markpierre]

[QUOTE=Jenci;510575][QUOTE=Ceedub;510572]Hi Jenci,

"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."


/QUOTE]

Hi CW

I found the more I learned, the more I wanted to teach. I wanted to tell the whole world what I had learned and shake people to wake them up to seeing what I could see.

And then I realised the more I wanted to teach, it meant the more I needed to learn.

Jeanette

But we should be able to recognize when real teachers are among us, and that should be whenever anyone is really being honest.
They're not teaching, they're being themselves. You know the joy in that.
There's a difference between convincing and certain. Certain has power that you can feel. Convincing feels like whining.
Well, that's how it feels to me.

Power puts people off sometimes, unless it spends the time and labor to censure away everything it has to say. Power doesn't think that way.
People react to certainty like arrogance. See you can't really tell by the way it reads. You have to be able to want to hear it.
Remember the early days? How it felt to be so hungry? It's a different hunger when your life is at stake.

You may be convincing, but that implies there are options, because you have to give separate thinkers options
because they freeking insist on it. And everything fails from there.
There aren't really options. It takes a drunk to know that.

But power gets in there. Sometimes you want to recoil because facing truth is uncomfortable these days. It has it's rewards, but the layers of 'truth beneath that truth' either seem or actually are endless.
Its not always (often) fun.

But we take it to dinner with us, and then to bed and maybe wake up that way. That's how change occurs.
There's a lot of value in that. You help a lot of people by being yourself..

Hey that was really just a weird circular compliment Jenci. Did you like it? I've missed you. Wirya ben?

[Jenci]

Posted by markpierre (here)
But we should be able to recognize when real teachers are among us, and that should be whenever anyone is really being honest.
They're not teaching, they're being themselves. You know the joy in that.
There's a difference between convincing and certain. Certain has power that you can feel. Convincing feels like whining.
Well, that's how it feels to me.

Good to hear from you, Mark.


I'm with you on the whining and I have heard myself whining at times. I think it may have been you who posted about the truth the other day - along the lines that it does not need to assert itself, and I agree with that.

The truth is already the truth. It doesn't need to jump up and down and make itself heard. The truth is found in the silence before the noise starts and when you start to tune into the truth, then the noise starts to sound like whining.

You may be convincing, but that implies there are options, because you have to give separate thinkers options
because they freeking insist on it. And everything fails from there.
There aren't really options. It takes a drunk to know that.

LOL, exactly. Talking of teachers, Professor Pinot Grigio gave this drunk that important lesson on options. There are none. This is it

Hey that was really just a weird circular compliment Jenci. Did you like it? I've missed you. Wirya ben?

and thank you.

I've been around in forum land, interests elsewhere.

Like you said:

Sometimes you want to recoil because facing truth is uncomfortable these days. It has it's rewards, but the layers of 'truth beneath that truth' either seem or actually are endless.
Its not always (often) fun.

It's just like that.

The realisations of the Truth of what I am mean that life becomes very ordinary and incredibly simple. Yet in that realisation there is a recoil because the realisation, to the mind, is far to immense and intense...... and like instant coffee, I throw it out because I can't bear it.

I choose a slower filtered version, letting it perculate through slowly. So my interest and attention goes elsewhere while the truth drips through at a speed that I can handle it.

But there really is no choice and while I think I am taking the easy route to understanding the realisation, I'm like the pebble on the beach that the tide drags back into the ocean and tumbles me around for a while and then washes me up on the beach for another period of contemplation and rest.

The rough edges are being smoothed nicely but I'm looking forward to more of the tumbling.

There's no rush. I have all the time in the world.....and I literally mean that
Jeanette

[Rahkyt]

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
From what I recall right off hand, is Don Juan saying basically that in the way of the warrior, there is always "And Yet". My interpretation? "And there he stood, the last living human on Earth, staring down the steamroller of destruction of this now living and breathing New World Order. He was now alone, all hope lost of course, "And Yet..."

Good catch, Fred!

It's like the movies you watch where the happy ending has happened and then, there's a scene that shows the bad guy, not dead, or the situation not fully resolved as the protagonists think it is ... of course, perfect setup for the sequel, but also a fundamental truth. That there is no end to the story, that there is always something more. An elevated understanding of the nuances of materiality and the inability of the un-awakened mind to fully perceive all of the potentialities inherent in a moment, in an event, in a series of moments and events ... chaos theory, quantum truths, life always finding a way despite the obstacles, all aspects spelling out future sentences on a chalkboard spanning the infinite.

Posted by Jenci (here)
Another aspect to this subject of teachers, is the need to teach others. Often we learn something and then think it is our job to go out there and teach everyone else what we know. But it's not.

Even this desire to teach must be disregarded as we see that this is the ego, using what has been learned to re-establish its identity.

In fact the more we learn, the quieter we become.

Ramana Maharshi very often used to teach in silence.

Verse 56 of the Tao te Ching says:

"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."

Hi Jenci,

when the Buddha attained enlightenment he didn't want to teach it. He was adamant against it. he didn't want to get followers, he didn't want to create a religion, he didn't want any of it. he thought it was all too difficult for the majority of people, most were not ready for his teachings. But, he had a vision I suppose you could say. In that vision the Hindu creator god came to him and convince him to teach the dharma.

I find that he expressed his unwillingness to teach by refusing to proselytize. From what I've read, he only ever answered questions. He did not go around preaching, yelling out to crowds and haranguing the people, he sat somewhere quietly until someone asked him a question. Perhaps that is the key aspect of sharing information, not to beat people over the head with it. And there were always questions that he refused to answer as well, dealing with infinity, the soul, things of that sort.

I find it a testament to free will and the nature of inquiry, as well as the propensity of people to build institutions for better and for worse, usually for worse. We hear a good thing and we gotta make a church around it. Sheesh.

[21CC]

Interesting facets of etymology for our understanding of "teacher" might include; preparer, one who leads forth, and one who shows.

[Fred Steeves]

Posted by Jenci (here)

In fact the more we learn, the quieter we become.



"Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know."

Hi Jenci, you know that I lean heavily towards that we are remembering from whence we came, as opposed to learning. Of course we are all dragging each other along that rugged path of remembrance. I fall, you pick me up, you fall, I pick you up.

Being given a hand up from a big stumble doesn't usually require a lot of words, does it?

I reckon we could call these teachers?

[mariposafe]

Posted by Rahkyt (here)
....
I find that he expressed his unwillingness to teach by refusing to proselytize. From what I've read, he only ever answered questions. He did not go around preaching, yelling out to crowds and haranguing the people, he sat somewhere quietly until someone asked him a question. Perhaps that is the key aspect of sharing information, not to beat people over the head with it.
....

Exactly ! Preaching ain't teaching !!!

Far better to simply be yourself, live by your heart, as fully as possible, and if some of that attitude rubs off on those around you - great. If not, that's equally OK.

[rmauersr]

Everyone and everything I interact with is my teacher, if I am paying attention. Those who push my buttons the most are my greatest teachers.

[another bob]

Posted by Rahkyt (here)
He did not go around preaching, yelling out to crowds and haranguing the people, he sat somewhere quietly until someone asked him a question. Perhaps that is the key aspect of sharing information, not to beat people over the head with it.

One ounce of practice is better than one ton of preaching.”

~Gandhi

[21CC]

My definition of a good teacher: One who can inspire students to formulate their own questions, show students where to find and how to utilize all the available resources to allow them to discover answers with personal relevance. With this degree of preparation and guiding care, significant learning is bound to happen! Thanks to all the devoted teachers who give of their life energy toward that continuous end!

[Carmen]

I love this ancient Arabian proverb that that Annalee Skarin included in her book "The Temple of God" I think it fits well in this thread.

"He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool! Avoid him!

He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is simple, teach him.

He who knows and knows not that he knows, is asleep, Wake him.

He who knows and knows that he knows, is a wise man, follow him.

[pie'n'eal]

As has been said many times, we are all discoverers (students), and when we know (we know we know).

The label teacher (knower), is given by a discoverer (student), when the discoverer (student) discovers that what the knower knows, they too know.
Then it's possible to refine the knowing, because we trust.

Tony