Teachers (Revisited)

[another bob]

Posted by Unified Serenity (here)
As for the silent guru on the mountain top who may bequeath wisdom to some aspirant, there is little to struggle with in the world when one has removed themselves from it, and they themselves are doing nothing but taking up oxygen.

Several famous Indian Swamis had gone West to bring the Vedantic knowledge to America, including Vivekananda and Yogananda. A devotee asked Bhagavan Nityananda if he too would be going. He answered, "One has to go abroad only if one cannot see places from here or deal with people there."

[Chinaski]

Posted by another bob (here)

Posted by Unified Serenity (here)
As for the silent guru on the mountain top who may bequeath wisdom to some aspirant, there is little to struggle with in the world when one has removed themselves from it, and they themselves are doing nothing but taking up oxygen.

Several famous Indian Swamis had gone West to bring the Vedantic knowledge to America, including Vivekananda and Yogananda. A devotee asked Bhagavan Nityananda if he too would be going. He answered, "One has to go abroad only if one cannot see places from here or deal with people there."

"one must have cosmetic surgery if one is to rid oneself of man-boobs" -- Chinaski

p.s. sorry Bob, i just couldn't help myself

[crested-duck]

I can see and relate to both sides of this subject/debate because of my learned/researched written knowledge and my hands on experience, very much like Freds path.There have been times I wasn't exactly sure how to approach a construction related problem over the years. But instinctually I went and found the oldest most experienced carpenter/contractor I could find and asked for helpfull advice. And always got what I needed exactly when I needed it from the older men who no longer had a dog in the fight. But asking young guys was/is useless because they look at me as their competition. Needless to say the old boys most always sent me in the correct direction, but it was still me that had to do the actual work myself to gain the required hands on experience and greater self confidence to complete the work .The only difference between a ok job and a excellent job is a little more time and effort.There's a right tool for every job, you have to know what it is and how to use it properly. Sometimes that requires a teacher in one form or another!---Rob

[pie'n'eal]

Posted by mariposafe (here)
I'm saddened to see that this thread appears to be going the way of so many threads on Avalon ........

I may be completely wrong, but I thought Fred's intention with this thread was to highlight how there are many situations in life where a teacher is not only unnecessary, but at times completely counter-productive. There is no need fo any "teachers", real or self-proclaimed ro take offence at this point of view.

Tony - If I want to learn how to paint, sing, fence, speak Arabic - then OF COURSE I need a teacher ! No-one is denying that. But when it comes to being me and living authentically, it is the height of arrogance to assume that you or anyone else can teach me, or to assume that your particular path is the "right" path for everyone. Countless times over the last 10 years or so, life its-self (or Dao, or God, or dharma, whatever you want to call it) has shown me that I need to learn things for myself, by being, by living, by experiencing. Your labelling of the Dao De Jing as "new age" is insulting and is unworthy of your wisdom. If you really fail to comprehend its' meaning, contemplate any of our politicians, you choose, they speak about "peace" and "human rights", yet what do they do ?

In my opinion, our world is too full of people who think they know best, whether they be scientists, moralists or gurus. Of course we need teachers to help us learn new skills, but when it comes to the really important things, life and experience are the best teachers. Ask any parent or, dare I say it, teacher. My students have humbled me and taught me so much, especially in this past month, and I value that above any self-styled "master".

How can words on a page tell one what to do? This is a forum, to discuss matter. The teacher can have many levels, for some, toilet is a teacher, it reminds one of the impermanence of aaaaaaall matter! Everyone and everything is or can be our teacher. What we are talking about is the 'speed' that suits us. How directly or the shortest path we want to go. We are not all at the same 'speed'.....keenest. Most os this 'speed' is to do with dropping what is unnecessary, but that is a individual choice.

From what is gathered here, it seem that people do not fear teachers, they fear their own mind, not being able to deal with the their own responses.
We do learn from everyone and every encounter, because the teacher is....the reaction in the mind! That's when we learn what needs to be dropped.

However I do apologise for saying all this, as it sound like teaching!.....what to do? I'll get my coat!


Tony

[Fred Steeves]

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)


However I do apologise for saying all this, as it sound like teaching!.....

Nah, we're just chatting, and a fine chat it is too!...

[Fred Steeves]

I was just spending some time getting caught up on Rahkyt's Ear tones thread, and came across a post by Charlie Pecos that I think fits in very timely with this thread, especially the last part. So here it is:

Hi Rahkyt,

You know, it's interesting you should bring up learning from others. This concept has spent much time of late rolling around in my mind. I think of all those who I worked with and for in the past and I reflect on how much I learned from them. I learned many things I don't think the other person ever intended to teach, yet there it is. I think that's the way it is for most people. We learn from others constantly by watching and observing. We make mental notes, and at least for myself personally, we change how we walk through this experience accordingly. I think that this is the way to be a teacher to others, an unintentional teacher. As we grow and develop spiritually and as humans, we conduct ourselves in an ever evolving manner- Ascension. This particular incarnation seems to be on fast forward. I think that many of us are learning lessons that would have taken us many lifetimes to figure out before this time.

[mariposafe]

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)


However I do apologise for saying all this, as it sound like teaching!.....

Nah, we're just chatting, and a fine chat it is too!...

Keep the coat ON brother, no need to go anywhere !!!

You said it yourself - anything and everything teaches us in some way.

An example if I may - Last week my portable diskdrive (500 GB) decided it no longer wished to be read. I took it to the shop, they sent it to the manufacturers and ... it's stuffed. Pissed off does not adequately describe my state of mind, it was almost half full with copies of ALL my photos, videos, private documents etc. etc., some of which I had no other copies of !!! I'd deleted everything I've downloaded over the past year in order to keep my laptop unclutered, and now It's gone. Fortunately, the really imporatnt stuff I still have, but the lesson is simple - attachment. There was plenty of material which I don't need and it's time to let go of.

[Paul]

Posted by mariposafe (here)
Last week my portable diskdrive (500 GB) decided it no longer wished to be read. I took it to the shop, they sent it to the manufacturers and ... it's stuffed.

Backups .

[Jenci]

To realise the role that silence can play in teaching, let's differentiate between the nature of our minds and our true nature.

Our mind’s nature – to understand, organise, make sense.

Our true nature – silence (out of which everything arises, including infinite wisdom)

Owing to its nature, the mind is a very effective tool for problem solving but it is not the source of our identity, although most people believe it is. The role of the spiritual teacher is to point us away from our minds, so that we stop using our mind as a reference point of identification and we go beyond it, to realise our true nature.

The first thing that the spiritual seeker wants to do, is understand what the teacher is talking about and this creates a difficulty. The need to understand, is the mind, as this is its nature. To allow the student to continue to try to understand what is being taught, puts attention onto the mind and re-enforces the mind to be the source of identification.

In other words the mind is saying “I need to understand this”. If the student acts on this thought and tries to understand then the student believes the mind is the “I” which created the thought that it needs to understand. Therefore the student is identified with the mind.

So the last thing the spiritual teacher wants to do is re-enforce the need of the student’s mind to understand. The teacher wants to free their identification with their mind and turn their attention to go beyond the mind, onto their true nature.

As I stated above, our true nature is silence as opposed to the mind’s nature which is the need to understand. So very often the teacher will use the silence to convey a sense of their true nature to the student, giving the student the opportunity and awareness to differentiate between the two and to stop paying attention to the mind’s need to understand.

The line from the Tao te Ching "Those who know do not talk. Those who talk do not know" doesn't mean that no words are used. This verse was written from the infinite wisdom, which arises from the silence of our true nature.

If it is read from the mind, which tries to make sense of it, it will most likely seem like nonsense. This is OK, as the mind is doing exactly what it is meant to do but the earnest seeker should not dismiss the wisdom. It will make sense as more is revealed during the awakening process and the identification with the mind is freed.

Some time ago, I went to see the spiritual teacher Eckhart Tolle. He was teaching to a large audience in big auditorium. As he sat on the stage ready to begin a 2 hour speech, there were quite a few people in the audience who took out notebooks and pens.

Tolle began by saying that he advised people to put away their notebooks and not to take notes on what he was saying. They didn’t listen though and I think he repeated it another two times before he began. They still didn’t listen though.

It was an important instruction from the teacher but to the student’s mind, which needs to understand, it doesn’t make sense.

To take notes during a two hour talk, the student would have to be using their mind to listen but Tolle was not talking to their minds. His talk was to convey a sense of what our true nature is by appealing to our true nature, which is lying dormant within the seeking student, hidden by the thoughts of the mind.

That which needs to understand, will understand when attention can be shifted away from the mind.

The role of the spiritual teacher is to shift the student’s attention away from and to go beyond their minds. Really, there is no understanding needed as our true nature doesn’t need to understand. It just needs to remember.

[ulli]

To me Avalon is like a university. I have learnt tons here in just the last few months.
But I also noticed quite a few people here express their belief that nothing from outside of us
should be accepted, while it is evident that they are expecting others to accept their statements.

This is just as absurd as taking all information from others as gospel.
Inner and outer teachings, both are necessary.

Outer teachings is called tuition, education, indoctrination, even brainwashing.
Inner teachings is IN-tuition. It serves us to discern what to discard, and what to absorb.
But even intuition can be misleading as those inner voices could still be originating from an outside source.

So it comes back to making a conscious choice, carefully evaluated.
And what about those feral children then?
Like Kaspar Hauser?
Deprived of all education and human contact and instead raised by animals.

[Rahkyt]

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)

Posted by Rahkyt (here)

It is ALL ok. Coming to that realization is coming to the recognition that we don't have to beat others over the head with anything. I used to teach college classes. Introductory Geography classes. Physical, human. Students paid to go to the colleges I taught at, they paid to sit in a chair and listen to me pontificate on different aspects of geography. I did not go out in the street to scream at them. There has to be a willingness factor on the part of those who become privy to the information presented. A free will choice.

Yes Mark, don't know if you meant to or not here, but I think you touch very well on the subtleties of "those who know do not talk". I've never found that to mean an absolute either way, between "talking" or "not talking". It's like everything else in life, if the action is appropriate then do it, if not then don't.

If say, me and a neighbor find ourselves sipping a couple of frosty cold ones one evening together, and they wind up asking me something like: " So Fred, have you ever thought about what 'all this' is about?", then certainly I would share, to a point of course, all depending. But, if I just belly up to the bar at me local pub for a couple of frosties, it's a different story. Now of course knowing me(LOL), I'll likely wind up raising a few unsuspecting eyebrows anyway before I pull up stakes, but I reckon ya'll know what I mean.

I do know what you mean. I tend to let others lead the conversation in group situations like that, accepting it as it is and, if possible, entering the conversation only in support of the general flow of conversation. I'm not much for small talk or banter. I don't watch sports regularly and so can't participate in those conversations and politics and religion, which I know a lot about, are things you're not supposed to bring up, especially in venues where alcohol is part of the social entertainment. It's all good though. In those situations, I end up watching mostly, designated driver kind of attitude. Taking care of those I came with and people-watching.

Now, if someone asks me a pointed question, "Katie, bar the door", as my old HS Basketball coach used to say.

There has been a great convo ongoing regarding that quote, "those who know vs those who don't know", there is little I can add. Great quotes, awesome interpretations going straight to the point, silence vs speech, teaching vs learning, higher mind vs ego. Every experience, every person we interact with and sometimes those we don't are our teachers.

What I might say in addition is only that all is well.

But I think that phrase is pretty well taken too.

Carry on! LOL

[mariposafe]

Posted by Paul (here)

Posted by mariposafe (here)
Last week my portable diskdrive (500 GB) decided it no longer wished to be read. I took it to the shop, they sent it to the manufacturers and ... it's stuffed.

Backups .

Backups of BACKUPS - to be precise !! Yes, I should know

[Carmen]

I had quite a useful lesson this past week. I was observing the progress of a young horse I bred that is being 'started' by a local trainer. 'Starting' a young horse in the natural way as opposed to the old way of 'breaking in' is a process of desensitisation and sensitisation to being around humans and being ridden. This is done by way of groundwork exercises and ridden exercises. The horse gradually trusts the leadership/alpha position of the human and 'gives' its mind/body to the directions of the trainer/rider. When this training is well on the ridden horse is soft, light on the bit, it responds to subtle cues and is ready for any cues the rider gives it. This willing partnership is a joy to experience.

I got to thinking about this and decided that there are many similarities to training a horse and training the human personality, bodymind!! I kid you not! The human bodymind personality, once in contact with the greater spiritual Self starts a similar training of willing cooperation to a greater intelligence. And, the human personality can be likened to a wild horse out of control, reactive, biting, kicking, running in fear. A horse can be an emotional mess just like some humans, especially if they have been abused in some way. I did say in another thread that I can learn from anything!!LOL. Also, it takes time to train the personality just as it does a horse. One must be consistent, persistent and patient. The rewards come in there own time and are quite magical.

[mariposafe]

Indeed Carmen, and children respond much better to love, affection and encouragement than to threats and violence, simple really !!!

[Jenci]

Posted by Carmen (here)
I did say in another thread that I can learn from anything!!

And this is what it is about. Being open and available to learn from anything rather than fixated on a specific 'teacher'.

Fascinating about the horses too
Jeanette

[Sebastion]

I would like to take this moment to say "thank you" to all of you! My 1st love is learning. Everyone here is my teacher and there is seldom a day that goes by that something, somewhere on this forum cannot be learned, if you are of a mind to learn.

I have come to grow fond of many of you because you impart sound wisdom in your postings. Jorr was an excellent example of the fondness I speak of. Because of the various posts which make me think and reflect I have come to see that unity consciousness within the self is the direction to go in, at least for me. I am now traveling that particular path.

My deep and sincere thanks to all of you for just being genuinely-you-!

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)

Posted by pie'n'eal (here)


However I do apologise for saying all this, as it sound like teaching!.....

Nah, we're just chatting, and a fine chat it is too!...

[21CC]

As has been a constant for me while reading these threads of our forum, referencing wikis, and following various video tutorials online; I glow with gratitude toward the individuals that freely share their knowledge, skills, wit, charm, opinions, and facets of their individuality. The folks that take time to communicate their articulate thoughts or add to existing works, or say, upload a video of how to play "Margaritaville" on ukulele complete with chords and lyrics, are sending out gifts that will resound infinitely. This they do without ever knowing the magnitude of their reach! Thank you!

[crested-duck]

We all give a little bit and teach each other! --Rob

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1Uicc-6I-M

[Dorjezigzag]

My view was not counter it attempted to add to the knowledge and draw attention to the limits of language. You may have noticed that I actually liked the post I was commenting on.

Just because you cannot follow me in this knowledge and you are lost does not mean it has no relevance.
I honestly have a problem with the word purity again you question others intentions?

Semantics is extremely important If you had read my posts on the previous teachers thread (why did you feel the need to start a new one?), you will see how I posted a thread regarding IN SEARCH OF THE MIRACULOUS, by P. D. OUSPENSKY which fittingly for this thread is a book written by the student Ouspensky about his teacher Gurdjieeff.

Castaneda was highly influenced by Gurdjieeff


Anyway to cut a long story short A successful beginning of work on oneself requires the happy occurrence of an equal development of personality and essence. Such an occurrence will give the greatest assurance of success.
The work requires personality to work with the essence.
Personality is one's entire influence that has been taken from the external world it is entirely 'other' (impure?) which can then work with the essence

purity in my opinion does not encapsulate enlightenment,

In my opinion this is the reason that many people attempt to destroy their personality thinking that what is left is pure essence or non ego state. Usually what is left is a damaged easily controllable husk.

The path of destroying the ego is mistaken as realised by John Lennon when he realised that he was destroying himself.

One has to identify ones essence, not an easy task and even more so for some due to choices and perhaps conditioning and then work on this with the personality.

Fred If you wish to define my intention can you please try to appreciate other peoples viewpoints even if it is outside your experience, before insinuating that they are gaming. OK?

Thanks Dorje

Posted by Fred Steeves (here)

Posted by Dorjezigzag (here)

Purity is another one of those interesting words

Alrighty then, you lost me with that one Dorjezigzag. If you have a reasonable counter view to put forth on this thread, then please feel free to do so, minus the gaming of semantics. O.K.?

Thanks,
Fred

[Carmen]

Dorjezigzag, I understand, I think, what you are getting at. In my understanding, and experience, the ego is not wrong, evil, or anything else. It's part of our divine makeup. It is a misguided child, disconnected from its great parent in consciousness, left to make its own way in the world and therefore it's only source of information on how to proceed is given by outside sources, parents,friends, enemies, school, government. It then becomes altered, controlled by others with no real autonomy of its own. The great source within the being is still there but covered over by a thick veil of conditioning.

It sometimes takes a huge shock or great change of some sort to pause that chatter, that belief, and for the greater intelligence to make itself known. If the being gives attention to the wonder of that, the learning can begin, otherwise the veil just drops again. It can take months and sometimes years for another parting of the veil, but once experienced its never forgotten. The altered ego can then start to be guided in the ways of spirit, but it's like a wilful child, it takes time, persistence and patience. And I agree with you, it's a partnership. The ego is the expert on earthly sensory bodily matters, the spirit is not. Nothing we have in our makeup is a mistake, it's all perfect, it's just that we have forgotten this partnership. We are disconnected from it. It a matter of remembering.