# Thread: The Sun Of Late

1. ## Re: The Sun Of Late

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)
Posted by Cartomancer (here)
Amer Zo. What you are calculating is when the correct solar orientation will match Manhattanhenge. This would be on a different day than the solstices and equinox. The date your alignment would happen would change but that would not change the actual days the solstice and equinox occurred unless the relative angle of the axial tilt in relation to the sun changes.

If a polar shift occurs then all of the monuments on earth that are oriented to true north would no longer measure these events accurately. That does not mean the date of those events would change unless the length of the year or day were changed somehow. Manhattanhenge would simply record the dates the sun rose in the right spot on a different day. This does not mean the actual dates of the solstice or equinox would change. It means Manhattanhenge would no longer be an accurate measuring device.
.

That's my whole point!!!

What is so incomprehensible about what I wrote?

The DATE would change! Therefore "Manhattanhenge" would miss its date:

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)
Had any significant tilt of the Earth's axis occurred and "Manhattanhenge" (see post # 42 above) would have missed its date and happened on a different day (setting earlier or later since the true latitude would have changed).
I didn't write anything about solstices nor equinoxes in that regard, only that with an axial shift those would occur in a different spot of the Zodiac. Look for the culprit who deviated the discussion towards that sector and which I called as a straw man.

My posts were to demonstrate that a change of the earth axis tilt implies a change in the sun inclination and therefore a change of the spots where the sun rises and sets, hence the date of said alignment. Unfortunately I couldn't find any diagrams other than equinox or solstice ones to illustrate that point.

If you suspect the earths axis has changed compare the pole star to something you know is oriented to true north. The alignment would be significantly different. This would change the angle of solar events and not the day on which they occurred
You are assumming irrelevant premises for my whole point and so did Rakhyt. "Manhattanhenge" occurring on its predicted date is sufficient evidence that no significant axial shift/tilt occurred. I maintain these two days are predicted/computed in advance for people from all over the place showing up with their photogarphic gears to catch those moments.
Well at least it made us all think about it. I had a good laugh this morning when I read this. I see what you are saying now.

2. ## The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Cartomancer For This Post:

Amzer Zo (3rd August 2012), Rahkyt (4th August 2012)

3. ## Re: The Sun Of Late

I am still missing how you get a Spring/Fall equinox sunrise/set 2 days after solstice start?

Does that really not matter?

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)
[...]

I am missing something somewhere: at 1 frame = 2.4 hours, starting at summer solstice, how do you manage to get an east-west sun rise/set at frame 27, that is 64.8 hours later? That's 2 days and 16.8 hours later. To me, that doesn't compute with the illustration of post # 122.

[...]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
[...]

Image 4: Look to the points indicated above -- I have increased axial tilt to 50 degrees! And guess what? "DeDukshynhenge" still occurs on frame 27 - indicating that no matter the axial tilt - these events still occur on roughly the same day. Mine all occurred within the same 2.4 hour period so to have different dates from 2011 and 2012 -- someone has some serious explaining to do (not Amzer Zo, but why two different days for manhattenhenge when my model adjusted tilt to 50 degrees, no variation in timing occurred ... ? something to think about ...
Probably because that's one of the exception case where the tilt occurs along the sun- rotation axis plane at solstices. In other words the rotation axis for the tilt coincides with the intersection line of the Equator-Ecliptic planes.

Which is also probably why yourself and Rahkyt insist I am wrong since I consider a general case of tilt change which in effect would "shift" the season to a different part of the Zodiac.

Even in that exception case, a tilt change would still "shift" the height of sun in the sky (shadows length) for a particular date.

EDIT!: keep in mind we are talking about sunset / sunrise phenomenon so the orientation of my axis has to be in this orientation at sunset or sunrise; I say this because orientation is a part of this and perhaps what is confusing Amzer Zo ...

[...]
Now, consider this: at 50 degrees tilt and the sun would barely be setting over Manhattan during the summer... and there would be no more "cityhenge" north of 400 around the summer solstice. Which is what I have been attempting to explain with the illustration of post # 122. There would be no more intersections between sunpath and horizon above 400 latitude around the summer solstice. So... I hope you can manage to integrate the parameters accounting for this in your 3D renderings

4. ## The Following User Says Thank You to Amzer Zo For This Post:

DeDukshyn (3rd August 2012)

5. ## Re: The Sun Of Late

Excellent conversation. Great work on the model Dedukshyn! As long as everyone reading it has a better understanding of earth-sun relationships, it's all good. Thank you all for your participation and for bringing this info out so that there is a record for any who seek to understand these issues better.

6. ## The Following User Says Thank You to Rahkyt For This Post:

DeDukshyn (3rd August 2012)

7. ## Re: The Sun Of Late

ROTFLMFAO....OMG and I thought I was relatively smart,,,,,,but this manhattan thing got WAYYYYYYYYYYYY over my head... So has there been a tilt? Yes or No would ease my suspense.

8. ## The Following User Says Thank You to Sidney For This Post:

InTheBackground (3rd August 2012)

9. ## Re: The Sun Of Late

HAHAHAHHA...idem starchild111! I will need to get up real early in the morning and only after a few big mugs of coffee, try to decifer all that manhattanhenge stuff.....

Like I wrote before..I need to buy me a model of the solar system.... lol

I too am waiting on the answer to your question.... but I think I know what answer we will be getting... kinda..... nahh....not really.... hahahhahah!

@ Rocky.... those blips in the photon graph are weird.... no idea to explain it, sorry.

@ Swan:

The orange and red tints that the Sun and Moon sometimes take on are caused by the particles in the Earth's atmosphere.

When light (or more specifically, packets of light called photons) from an astronomical object passes through the Earth's atmosphere, it scatters off of particles in the latter. It turns out that these particles like to scatter blue light more than they do red light; so "bluer" photons (those with shorter wavelengths) tend to get scattered, and "redder" photons (those with longer wavelengths) pass through. So, astronomical objects look redder from Earth than they would from space, because the redder wavelengths from the objects penetrate the atmosphere better than the bluer ones. Incidentally, this is why the sky is blue: blue light from the Sun is scattered in all directions on its way to the Earth.

But how does this explain the occasional redness of the Moon or the Sun? Your son may have noticed that they always occur when the Sun or Moon is close to the horizon. If you think about it, sunlight or moonlight must travel through the maximum amount of atmosphere to get to your eyes when the Sun or Moon is on the horizon (remember that that atmosphere is a sphere around the Earth). So, you expect *more* blue light to be scattered from Sunlight or Moonlight when the Sun or Moon is on the horizon than when it is, say, overhead; this makes the object look redder. In other words, the Sun or Moon tends to look orange or red when it is rising or setting because that's the time when the light has to travel through the most atmosphere to get to you. The effect is exacerbated when there are thin clouds in front or behind the Sun or Moon: the clouds themselves often glow bright pink as well, because they are so good at scattering blue light.

10. ## The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to MorningSong For This Post:

InTheBackground (3rd August 2012), Rocky_Shorz (4th August 2012), Sidney (4th August 2012), Swan (3rd August 2012)

11. ## Re: The Sun Of Late

Posted by starchild111 (here)
ROTFLMFAO....OMG and I thought I was relatively smart,,,,,,but this manhattan thing got WAYYYYYYYYYYYY over my head... So has there been a tilt? Yes or No would ease my suspense.
Nop! No tilt!

Consider the earth to be a very heavy, giant gyroscope and the amount of applied force which would be required to tilt the axis of rotation of such a gyroscope. I haven't seen such a force being around lately.

Try with a small one and experience the effort you have to apply to tilt the axis of rotation.

12. ## The Following User Says Thank You to Amzer Zo For This Post:

Nick Matkin (3rd August 2012)

13. ## Re: The Sun Of Late

Posted by Rocky_Shorz (here)
...

what is causing these waves that erase energy?
The energy is not being erased but blocked.... I believe the drop outs to be simple eclipses caused by the earth or the moon, they happen to solar satellites often and can last from a few mins to an hour or so.....

14. ## The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Setras For This Post:

DeDukshyn (3rd August 2012), Rahkyt (4th August 2012)

15. ## Re: The Sun Of Late

Posted by starchild111 (here)
ROTFLMFAO....OMG and I thought I was relatively smart,,,,,,but this manhattan thing got WAYYYYYYYYYYYY over my head... So has there been a tilt? Yes or No would ease my suspense.
From my preliminary guess, a change in axial tilt up to about 5 degrees probably wouldn't be noticed at all as far as anecdotal observations go. But there are still other types of tilts and changes that can occur that I would like to test after I get back from my vacation

16. ## The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to DeDukshyn For This Post:

Knowrainknowrainbows! (3rd August 2012), Rahkyt (4th August 2012), Sidney (4th August 2012)

17. ## Re: The Sun Of Late

Posted by Rahkyt (here)
Excellent conversation. Great work on the model Dedukshyn! As long as everyone reading it has a better understanding of earth-sun relationships, it's all good. Thank you all for your participation and for bringing this info out so that there is a record for any who seek to understand these issues better.
Amzer may still have point ...

Ok so now I have to point out the flaw in my diagram: In the top right viewport the earth is in front of the sun. You can see that my axial tilt direction is perpendicular to the direction of the sun's rays. This means that I am not representing a solstice, but rather an equinox. A solstice needs to have the axial tilt be parallel to the direction of suns rays, no? I am pretty sure. So that means that my representation is of what would happen on an equinox, which is nothing -- no amount of change in axial tilt will affect sunrise / set timings or positions.

By re-simulating this in my head with a solstice, I can see that the amount of change in axial tilt in degrees should cause an equal amount of lateral degrees shift of sunrise / set positions. So, a say, 5 degree change in axial tilt should cause the sunset / rise position to shift laterally by 5 degrees (1.389%) -- this is likely not significant enough to really notice; but if the tilt changed 20 degrees - that may well be noticeable -- resulting in a 5.5% shift of sunset / rise positions -- I think people might notice this and it may mess up the "manhattenhenge"

I will redo this when I get back from vacation and fix my solstice, set up the manhattenhenge exactly as it is in real life and play some more this is fun

18. ## The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to DeDukshyn For This Post:

Amzer Zo (4th August 2012), Sidney (4th August 2012)

19. ## Re: The Sun Of Late

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
[...]

Ok so now I have to point out the flaw in my diagram: In the top right viewport the earth is in front of the sun. You can see that my axial tilt direction is perpendicular to the direction of the sun's rays. This means that I am not representing a solstice, but rather an equinox.

[...]
Which is this case:
Posted by Amzer Zo (here)
[...]

Probably because that's one of the exception case where the tilt occurs along the sun- rotation axis plane at solstices. In other words the rotation axis for the tilt coincides with the intersection line of the Equator-Ecliptic planes.

[...]

Amzer may still have point ...
Thanks!

The point is clearly made with this:

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)
[...]

Now, consider this: at 50 degrees tilt and the sun would barely be setting over Manhattan during the summer... and there would be no more "cityhenge" north of 400 around the summer solstice. Which is what I have been attempting to explain with the illustration of post # 122. There would be no more intersections between sunpath and horizon above 400 latitude around the summer solstice. So... I hope you can manage to integrate the parameters accounting for this in your 3D renderings

[...]

Even within that exception and with that 500 tilt, "Manhattanhenge" wouldn't even occur anymore since the sun wouldn't even set over Manhattan!

Manhattan would be located within the "new" artic circle... no sunset around the summer solstice, just plain 24 hours direct sunlight.

So, if ever proof was still needed, even within that exception case, that the position of the sunset on the horizon (and its direction/orientation along with it) would change with a tilt of the earth axis... there you have it.

Enjoy the vacations!

20. ## The Following User Says Thank You to Amzer Zo For This Post:

Sidney (4th August 2012)

21. ## Re: The Sun Of Late

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)
Posted by starchild111 (here)
ROTFLMFAO....OMG and I thought I was relatively smart,,,,,,but this manhattan thing got WAYYYYYYYYYYYY over my head... So has there been a tilt? Yes or No would ease my suspense.
Nop! No tilt!

Consider the earth to be a very heavy, giant gyroscope and the amount of applied force which would be required to tilt the axis of rotation of such a gyroscope. I haven't seen such a force being around lately.

Try with a small one and experience the effort you have to apply to tilt the axis of rotation.
that's why I chuckle at the thought, plus it would reverse the direction of the Spin, and the earth is spinning at 1000 miles per hour at the equator, if it flipped it would slowly wind down before it was caught in the Sun's magnetic forces that once again would get it spinning at normal speed.

the sun would rise in the west and set in the east...

now a magnetic shift could have much to do with the molten center of the planet, or changing magnetic push by removing the rare earth minerals from their location to build our electronics...

for those who have tinkered with free energy using Magnets, you know the enormous effect moving a magnet a fraction of a millimeter, in one position it creates free energy, in the other, a debunkers dream...

our solar system uses magnetics to stay in motion.

each time a truck goes in and moves several tons of magnets from its position, it changes the magnetic field at that location...

we are just beginning to learn about the energies involved in our planet, but we'll keep rolling along until someone realizes it is a problem that needs changing...

here at Avalon, we're helping speed up the process through inner-communication with advanced beings and then sharing it all here in a public forum...

oh, um... the advanced beings that officially don't exist...

they send images of advancements, we can hardly comprehend, but joining together as a think tank each with different specialties we are able to expand them into reality...

22. ## The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Rocky_Shorz For This Post:

InTheBackground (19th August 2012), Sidney (4th August 2012)

23. ## Re: The Sun Of Late

Posted by Setras (here)
Posted by Rocky_Shorz (here)
...

what is causing these waves that erase energy?
The energy is not being erased but blocked.... I believe the drop outs to be simple eclipses caused by the earth or the moon, they happen to solar satellites often and can last from a few mins to an hour or so.....
there is nothing between the satellite and the sun...

it is a 24 hour pulse, but it has expanded from 20-30 minutes to 5-8 hours...

I think it is pulses from a black hole of an energy type we don't even have equipment to measure...

possibly from the center of it all, radiating outward and as we approach the plane of this energy it is getting stronger and more powerful...

now for those of you who have seen this chart change since we started watching it, makes me believe there is an intelligence behind it, not just random waves... now it is back to what we had normally been seeing, tiny breaks at the midnight hour. Manipulation of instruments? can they control the waves?

how did they know when we are watching?

Bill brought up the Hitchhiker

I mentioned the group behind it watching... shhhh

24. ## The Following User Says Thank You to Rocky_Shorz For This Post:

InTheBackground (19th August 2012)

25. ## Re: The Sun Of Late

oh and Stonehenge is one of two places in the world, that the sun and the moon reach to the same point which is why it was built there...

the one before it was in Kurdistan 5 thousand years older, and when it was built, it was in that location on earth instead of Portugal

I think if we dated the different stone henges, we would get a good idea how much the planet has shifted over the ages...

did you know Stonehengge radius is the identical length of the Giza Great Pyramid base...

just a coincidence?

26. ## The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Rocky_Shorz For This Post:

InTheBackground (19th August 2012), MorningSong (4th August 2012)

27. ## Re: The Sun Of Late

Posted by Rocky_Shorz (here)
oh and Stonehenge is one of two places in the world, that the sun and the moon reach to the same point which is why it was built there...

the one before it was in Kurdistan 5 thousand years older, and when it was built, it was in that location on earth instead of Portugal

I think if we dated the different stone henges, we would get a good idea how much the planet has shifted over the ages...

did you know Stonehengge radius is the identical length of the Giza Great Pyramid base...

just a coincidence?
I don't believe in coincidence. : )

28. ## The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Sidney For This Post:

InTheBackground (19th August 2012), MorningSong (4th August 2012)

29. ## Re: The Sun Of Late

this is a real time image so it will change soon, but look at that twisted dark filament, almost looks like a vine...

the last sunflare was caused by a filament eruption, but what I'm looking at is the big one pointed at us right now not far from that filament.

30. ## The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Rocky_Shorz For This Post:

InTheBackground (19th August 2012), MorningSong (5th August 2012)

31. ## Re: The Sun Of Late

we are finally going to cool down after this intense month of heat...

the Jet Stream is flowing again so cooler air is crossing the whole country...

32. ## The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Rocky_Shorz For This Post:

InTheBackground (19th August 2012), Jenci (19th August 2012), MorningSong (19th August 2012)