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Thread: The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

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    United States Avalon Member ljwheat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

    Quote Posted by Vitalux (here)
    Bill ....just my thoughts....

    My background is actually in environmental sciences and chemical engineering.

    Keeping things simple which is key.

    The climate changes rather human's exist here for not.
    Our planet's motion through the solar system, as well as our Sun's motion through our Galaxy are constantly changing.
    We have absolutely no control over what the heavenly bodies do.

    We, exist, like all other conscious souls, rather it be insects, animals, plants, etc..
    Similar to the insects, plants and animals, we all share the same living space.

    The planet has been around for billions of years.
    Human's have been around on this planet for billions of years.

    We will accomplish about as much by worrying about climate changes as the plants, insects and animals do.
    I think it is better to experience living in the present moment with love, rather than to live in the present moment worrying about fear of tomorrows wows of things which we can't even fathom or control.

    Myself, I enjoy change.


    therefore :The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

    It means just that.....The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing.

    A good friend of mine sent me this joke form the past, and shows what your saying, in a coin. To much thinking leads to missing something.

    A chuckle from way down memory lane.
    The Lone Ranger and Tonto

    The Lone Ranger and Tonto went camping in the desert. After they got their tent all set up, both men fell sound asleep.

    Some hours later, Tonto wakes the Lone Ranger and says, 'Kemo Sabe, look towards sky, what you see? '


    'The Lone Ranger replies, 'I see millions of stars.'

    'What that tell you?' asked Tonto.

    The Lone Ranger ponders for a minute then says, 'Astronomically speaking, it tells me there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of planets. Astrologically, it tells me that Saturn is in Leo. Time wise, it appears to be approximately a quarter past three in the morning. Theologically, the Lord is all-powerful and we are small and insignificant Meteorologically, it seems we will have a beautiful day tomorrow.

    What does it tell you, Tonto?'

    'You dumber than buffalo ****! It means someone stole the tent.'
    :thumb: Paintings that I have created over the last 35 years >Gallery http://projectavalon.net/forum4/album.php?albumid=587< or here at ACC http://www.ashtarcommandcrew.net/gro...-or-collection

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    France Avalon Member araucaria's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

    Sites like http://wattsupwiththat.com/ explain how the two polar regions function together but out of phase. In other words, they both oscillate between melting while the other freezes over and freezing while the other melts.

    This is specially designed to produce endless controversy since the catastrophists always have one pole where they can point to melting, while the 'deniers' always have the other where they can point to freezing.
    Last edited by araucaria; 21st September 2012 at 15:50.


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    Default Re: The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

    Quote Posted by SilentFeathers (here)
    some of us of today will survive and evolve but follow an extreme law to never again interfere with the process of life on Earth because of our past catastrophic mistakes.....but we will monitor the process from special ships and occasionally be seen by the new races on this planet and they will say we are aliens from other planets! We will become the "watchers"! LOL!
    ..hey, you know, sometimes i wonder if this is our reality and previous civilizations made it off the planet to space and just like to peek in and see how the new class is doing. Off topic I know. Sorry, but i had to comment...carry on...

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    Default Re: The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

    If I may...

    These sites might help you to find some of the answers... or might form more questions:

    National Snow and Ice Data:
    http://nsidc.org/

    Polar Sea Ice Cap and Snow, The Cryosphere Today:
    http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/

    Artic Sea Ice Monitor:
    http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/en/home/seaice_extent.htm
    http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/en/index.htm

    Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory:
    http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/noaa-gfdl-c...ex.html#seaice

    Milutin Milankovic:
    http://www.teslasociety.com/milankovic.htm

    And for more (or less?) courageous readers:
    http://www.habtheory.com/index.php
    http://www.habtheory.com/3/index.php
    "Vision without action is merely a dream.
    Action without vision just passes the time.
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    Canada Avalon Member Midnight's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

    Because of the record melt of arctic sea ice, I've lately been checking out two sites, RealClimate and Arctic Sea Ice Blog (neven1.typepad.com). The posters on these 2 sites are climate scientists, other scientists, and science savy types. The terminology they use often makes it hard for me to understand what they are talking about, but it's clear that most of them think we are headed for big trouble in the next few decades. The great majority of these posters believe human co2 production is the main factor in this current global warming, and that there are other factors that magnify the effect such as dark ocean water reflects less sunlight than white ice, and methane plumes are being released from exposed decayed plant life (methane being a potent greenhouse gas).

    They explain why the antarctic isn't melting while the arctic is, but to be honest I didn't understand. They have a language that requires years of science education.

    I get the sense that the great majority of climate scientists are now believers in human caused global warming, and that the majority of these believe various degrees of catastrophe await us sometime in this century. They refer to climate deniers, so I know they exist, but, except for one or two, the deniers don't visit these two sites. The so-called climate deniers are a minority, I believe.

    Do I think they are right about their prediction that we are on a run-away train headed for climate catastrophe, and that even if the people running this planet immediately turned away from burning carbon (and we know they won't), it's probably already too late? I think they are more likely right than wrong. But I hope they're wrong.

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    Default Re: The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

    As far as I can tell, the AGW (anthropogenic global warming) skeptics at the site I mentioned above seem to make a cogent scientific case contradicting the ‘warmists’ claim that runaway climate change is upon us.

    Certainly, even a non-specialist can see from the leaked emails of ‘Climategate’ a while back that the science was not being done in an ethical fashion. Most notably, Michael Mann’s infamous ‘hockeystick’ graph, showing a mostly flat graph with a sharp rise at the end, was generated by an algorithm that produces nothing but hockey sticks whatever the data.

    Another controversial issue is the siting of weather stations, which have often been caught up in urban sprawl, with consequent higher temperature readings. Certainly urban sprawl produces higher temperatures, but this has nothing to do with CO2 levels.

    Science is usually driven by funding, hence a political agenda is never far away, and funding is funneled towards compliant scientists.

    I’m sure there is a lot of good science been done out there somewhere, but where?


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    Default Re: The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

    Thanks for this, Mr. Bill Ryan
    Have been watching this developing on the" 2 minute news " reports daily...one could estimate if the situation continues, the earth will have to "slip" a bit to conform to the weight changes at the poles...but it sure is evident that the north pole is facing the sun more directly than usual...
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    Default Re: The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

    It means Gaia has cycles and ways of creating equilibrium in time spans we can only appreciate in hindsight. Pollution is disgusting and life threatening all on its' own, irrespective of what is probably zero climatic impact. Pollution must come to and end regardless if the planet is warming or cooling.

    All is well.
    Last edited by modwiz; 21st September 2012 at 16:32.

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    Default Re: The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

    notice on the north pole how energy is circled around the center, also notice the Jet Stream loop drawing warm temps from the Gulf straight to the north pole...

    Quote Posted by Rocky_Shorz (here)








    this shows the magnetic field around our planet it take a lot of memory so I'm just leaving a lint to the EOG movie
    http://iswa.gsfc.nasa.gov:8080/IswaS...-1&cygnetId=40
    if the north pole is shifting why is the energy perfectly centered?

    by what we can see it is the south pole field that is off center...

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    Default Re: The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

    As I understand it, weather patterns tend to emanate from the equator toward the poles. The distinct difference in temperatures at the poles might then be due to the fact that weather in the Northern Hemisphere is being messed with (HAARP, chemtrails, greenhouse gases, etc.) to a far greater degree than in the Southern Hemisphere.

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    Default Re: The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

    From Activist Post:
    Migrating North Pole Contributing to Severe Weather?

    Few can argue that severe weather is currently impacting the globe. Certainly the record droughts in America have become a huge concern for food prices, which has subsequently sparked an uptick in alarming climate change rhetoric.

    As the Northern Hemisphere has experienced one of the warmest summers on record, Arctic ice has receded considerably, prompting the typical global warming "collapse" discussion. While northern ice has indeed reached new modern lows, ice in the southern hemisphere continent of Antarctica has reached record highs. Charts for both hemispheres can be seen here.

    So, clearly some kind of shift is happening, but perhaps the answer is not as simple as CO2 concentrations like the establishment would like us to believe. There seem to be much larger galactic-scale forces at play that are affecting not just Earth but all planets in the solar system. One of those forces appears to be Earth's rapidly migrating magnetic North Pole, as can be seen in the video below.

    This video does an excellent job of explaining how this anomaly may fit in to the bigger picture of our shifting climate vs. the limited human-centric, 200-year-long version that gets politicized:



    With the Earth's magnetic North Pole shifting by 40 miles per year, this event is already causing airports to adjust their runways. It is bound to change prevailing winds, ocean currents and many other factors involved in maintaining a stable and predictable climate.

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    Default Re: The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

    Although there is nothing we can do about these things, I can understand Bill's desire to understand what's going on, if it's possible to understand it correctly.

    I've paid attention to some of these issues, and have been very alarmed by the evidence of low-level volcanic activity, and the significant earthquakes, in New Zealand in the recent years. When NZ became suddenly active, I began to wonder what that was about. Christchurch, NZ, is the supply point for flights to the Antarctic research stations and now Christchurch is practically in rubble, as I understand it, one earthquake after another (but any Kiwis here, please confirm or correct me in this).

    Then just recently a floating mass of pumice (lightweight volcanic rock) the size of Rhode Island appeared off the coast of NZ. Since there have only been "signs" of low level volcanic activity in NZ and no violent volcanic activity on land, I assume that this pumice comes from undersea volcanoes. I haven't heard that this pumice migrated there from some other place on the planet.

    This suggests that undersea volcanic activity (heating) has increased, at the same time that the Antarctic has more ice than normal (cooling).

    What these two opposing forces add up to, and how they work together at the same time, I'm not sure. But I keep remembering Dr. Bill Deagle's assertions that global warming is related more to undersea volcanic activity than to anything else - and that there are thousands of undersea volcanoes. Undersea heating will also affect the Atlantic Conveyor by causing salt water to rise to the surface (warm water being lighter than cold water), displacing the fresh water that normally rests there.

    This all makes sense to me, but I invite the scientists in this group to correct any errors in my understanding. What I'm seeing in my imagination is an expanding planet. The planet has expanded before, several times, according to geological evidence.

    While I agree that pollution must stop NOW, or better, yesterday, and we must get off of coal and petroleum for the health of the planet and its lifeforms, it is quite possible that the quantities of methane being released by unexplained warming is more significant than human-generated CO2.

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    Default Re: The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

    Quote Posted by MorningSong (here)
    If I may...

    These sites might help you to find some of the answers... or might form more questions:

    National Snow and Ice Data:
    http://nsidc.org/

    Polar Sea Ice Cap and Snow, The Cryosphere Today:
    http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/

    Artic Sea Ice Monitor:
    http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/en/home/seaice_extent.htm
    http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/en/index.htm

    Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory:
    http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/noaa-gfdl-c...ex.html#seaice

    Milutin Milankovic:
    http://www.teslasociety.com/milankovic.htm

    And for more (or less?) courageous readers:
    http://www.habtheory.com/index.php
    http://www.habtheory.com/3/index.php


    Thanks for your excellent info and help MorningSong
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    Default Re: The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

    Quote Posted by SilentFeathers (here)
    This is not about the ice in the Artic and the Antartic Bill, this is just another topic thrown in our faces with the intention of pitting one mindset against the other and brainwashing the masses to choose sides....Next you'll hear that this is the reason that coastal cities are not yet experiencing severe flooding from global warming and the melting of the ice caps! (they have to come up with an excuse one way or another to explain ocean levels not severely rising) THIS IS A GOOD REASON.


    I'm sure there is one group of people thinking this massive weight shift will cause the planet to flip over too!

    Either way it will not change the facts from the "officials" that "global warming" is not a natural Earth cycle but caused by humans and that if we all don't start paying carbon taxes we are all going to die.

    I have never experienced more double talk in my lifetime than I have experienced just in the last couple of years.....

    Edit: ADDED words in red.....
    Exactly SF ..... Could it be that the planned new world currency of the elite will be backed by the so-called hard asset named "Carbon Credits" ?? since it will be guaranteed by every person on the planet contributing to the printing, although such a scheme will not benefit the elite with their population reduction plan... or will it.. i am thinking now (or trying :-) If they succeed with their population reduction plan which will reduce the carbon output globally or in other words Carbon outputs (the asset backing the new money) will be scares, and all assets becoming scares goes up in price .... sorry just putting down what i was thinking, so maybe it is just a stupid nonsense brain fart ...

    Any comments ?

    Love you all
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    Short Term memory infected/defect. Watching, feeling and recording since i recall. Recording for some one/thing else !
    I care about the earth, and despise greed.

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    Default Re: The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

    Quote Posted by Carmody (here)
    [...]

    So, to concur with Amer Zo, it is apparently a case of the humidity going to the place where a real freeze is happening, and that is the antarctic.

    And if it goes to the antarctic, it is like a porcupine quill....it is probably not coming back out any time soon. That all advance in ice and snow in the antarctic, regarding short term aspects, is likely to not come back out again. That there may possibly be a 'year on year' advance in the antarctic mass.
    A point of clarification may be needed here and that is that the Northern and Southern Hemispheres air masses and their content do not mix with each other and are distinctly separated at the Equator. Hence, what's occurring with each hemisphere is inherent to that particular hemisphere. This may be the reason why some of the elites are moving to the Southern Hemisphere in case they manage to concoct a nuclear war in the Northern Hemisphere.


    Quote As far as the arctic melting, I had read that this would cause high humidity and drought issues elsewhere, very much like an added mass and added energetic in the rotating and flowing air below, the various jet stream components. That the atmospheric patterns would be come more stratified, like the surface appearance of Jupiter, Neptune, Uranus, etc. Striped patterning that is more obvious than it is now, on earth. This would also give rise to more storms, is the likely scenario, along the changeover areas of the stratification. A minor movement in that overall direction, year on year.

    The paradox that the cool humid air off the arctic expanding... is that this would give the impression of freezing issues, just below that of the arctic and also the added humidity would cause both reflection and absorption issues, thermally, in the atmosphere. all this causes a well nigh unpredictable mix. thus, more shocking and sudden weather extremes,and shifted patterns.
    There is another layer that's being slowly added to the atmospheric layers which is being demonstrated by the increase in sightings of noctilucent clouds. That's cometary dust accumulating and hanging out in earth's high atmosphere and acts the same way as volcanic ash does in its repercusions on weather systems and cooling/warming effects.
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    Default Re: The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

    Quote Posted by Watching from Cyprus (here)
    Quote Posted by SilentFeathers (here)
    This is not about the ice in the Artic and the Antartic Bill, this is just another topic thrown in our faces with the intention of pitting one mindset against the other and brainwashing the masses to choose sides....Next you'll hear that this is the reason that coastal cities are not yet experiencing severe flooding from global warming and the melting of the ice caps! (they have to come up with an excuse one way or another to explain ocean levels not severely rising) THIS IS A GOOD REASON.


    I'm sure there is one group of people thinking this massive weight shift will cause the planet to flip over too!

    Either way it will not change the facts from the "officials" that "global warming" is not a natural Earth cycle but caused by humans and that if we all don't start paying carbon taxes we are all going to die.

    I have never experienced more double talk in my lifetime than I have experienced just in the last couple of years.....

    Edit: ADDED words in red.....
    Exactly SF ..... Could it be that the planned new world currency of the elite will be backed by the so-called hard asset named "Carbon Credits" ?? since it will be guaranteed by every person on the planet contributing to the printing, although such a scheme will not benefit the elite with their population reduction plan... or will it.. i am thinking now (or trying :-) If they succeed with their population reduction plan which will reduce the carbon output globally or in other words Carbon outputs (the asset backing the new money) will be scares, and all assets becoming scares goes up in price .... sorry just putting down what i was thinking, so maybe it is just a stupid nonsense brain fart ...

    Any comments ?

    Love you all
    Peter
    Carbon markets, renewable energy credits, and trading has collapsed in price. The large players in the renewable energy space no longer count on selling the REC's as a driver in their models. SREC conracts were going for over $400 per MWH a couple of years ago and now can be bought for well under $100. Chicago Mercantile suspended trading credits when they went under $10.

    IF.... there really was a plan for a global currency based on carbon credits, it's DOA.
    Just because I took the red pill, it doesn't mean that I washed it down with the koolaid

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    Default Re: The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    -------

    One thought that occurred to me is that if the build-up of ice is asymmetrical, then this might create a very slight wobble on the spinning mass of the planet. I have no idea what effects that might trigger (or if the wobble would be large enough to create a knock-on effect).
    since its building up at one of the poles ( fairly balanced as far as centrifugal force is concerned) I highly doubt this is the case.

    Also, have the sources in this been "checked out" ?

    we had RECORD ice build up in the bearing sea last winter (2011/2012 winter) we had a fish processing plant close due to ice (something that hasen't happened in 20 years) and snow fall that decimated every snow fall on record for Alaska.

    We also had a summer with temps that never broke 72* ( 22.2 C) with an enormous amount of rain fall (under a flood watch right now) so I'm a bit skeptical (though of course this is just ONE small(ish) area of the sub-arctic region, it might be oppisite elsewhere (though I doubt it)).


    I love reading people post how bad the summer is in the northern hemisphere when they only experience a small portion of it, its been a COLD WET summer up here (though it has been like this since 2006, so nothing super new to report there...)
    Hard times create strong men, Strong men create good times, Good times create weak men, Weak men create hard times.
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    Avalon Member 13th Warrior's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    -------

    One thought that occurred to me is that if the build-up of ice is asymmetrical, then this might create a very slight wobble on the spinning mass of the planet. I have no idea what effects that might trigger (or if the wobble would be large enough to create a knock-on effect).
    since its building up at one of the poles ( fairly balanced as far as centrifugal force is concerned) I highly doubt this is the case.

    Also, have the sources in this been "checked out" ?

    we had RECORD ice build up in the bearing sea last winter (2011/2012 winter) we had a fish processing plant close due to ice (something that hasen't happened in 20 years) and snow fall that decimated every snow fall on record for Alaska.

    We also had a summer with temps that never broke 72* ( 22.2 C) with an enormous amount of rain fall (under a flood watch right now) so I'm a bit skeptical (though of course this is just ONE small(ish) area of the sub-arctic region, it might be oppisite elsewhere (though I doubt it)).


    I love reading people post how bad the summer is in the northern hemisphere when they only experience a small portion of it, its been a COLD WET summer up here (though it has been like this since 2006, so nothing super new to report there...)
    Coastal and near coastal temperatures tend to be more stable because of the buffering effect of the water body.
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    United States Avalon Member Lazlo's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    -------

    One thought that occurred to me is that if the build-up of ice is asymmetrical, then this might create a very slight wobble on the spinning mass of the planet. I have no idea what effects that might trigger (or if the wobble would be large enough to create a knock-on effect).
    This actually isn't too far fetched. Earth Crust Displacement. Charles Hapgood proposed this theory and it was endorsed by Einstein. The crust of the Earth is like and orange peel, except that it rests on a viscous, but fluid surface. This is one possible explanation for mammoths found in permafrost with fresh berries in their mouths, and at the other end of the globe, maps which show an Antarctic coastline free of ice. It also coincides with global myths about the sun standing still, or in other areas, darkness which lasted for days. Velikovsky danced around this and De Santillana and Von Deschend made references in "Hamlet's Mill", though they ascribed it to different causes.

    Hapgood also provides a good segueway for some of my own thoughts on the Arctic and Antarctic ice changes. In "Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings" (which was also a sorce for Graham Hancock in "Fingerprints of the Gods") there is ample evidence that humans made voyages to the southern hemispher at a time that the coastlines of Antarctica were ice free.

    When you consider sources such as the Piri Reis map which shows the ice free Antarctic coast, I try to apply the K.I.S.S. rule, or Occam's Razor, if you like. We have a map that exists. Either
    1: someone made an astounding guess as to what was on the other side of the planet and under the ice
    2: Aliens or Atlanteans took meaurement using ice penetrating radar from orbit
    3: Antarctic coastlines were free of ice at some point during human history, and were visited and mapped by explorers.

    I'm going with three, and this tells us that dramatic changes in the ice caps do occur.

    At the other end of the world, you need look no farther than Jared Diamond's "Collapse" and his investigation into the Norse colonization of Greenland to know that dramatic changes occur in the Northern Hemisphere as well. During the midieval warm period (frustratingly ignored in the hockey stick graph) there were wild grapes in Nova Scotia and farming in Greenland. Then came the little ice age and you had people ice skating in Holland's canals.

    As others here have referenced, weather patterns in the hemisphere's are isolated from one another by the equator, even though the thermohaline conveyer does cross the equator, but on very long time scales in the order of thousands of years.

    In my eyes, evidence of large melting and freezing cycles casts doubt on the ice core dating techniques used for establishing paleo climate records. Ice cores are dated in a method similar to tree ring dating. Count the layers and start dating backwards. One layer equals one year. The problem is that during warm periods when you have ice loss, the record for that year is obliterated. Likewise if you have intra-seasonal warming events, multiple distinct layers are preserved in the snowpack (which is compressed to form the ice pack.) This is self evident to anyone who has dug an avalanche pit.

    Then toss in the uncertainty in climate models and you have a perfect recipe for the scientific establishment not knowing as much as it thinks it does. It's all terribly complex, yet we try to reduce it to easily understood principles. Cosmic rays make clouds, clouds reflect sunlight, but also provide an insulating layer which keeps temperatures warmer at night. Increased temperatures increase evaporation, which forms clouds. Cloud formation is one of the key drivers in climate, yet it is so chaotic and poorly understood that climate models don't even attempt to model it accurately, so the models use a generic term in the equations, a fudge factor if you will, just like Einstein's cosmological constant. "I don't what is happening, so I have to put something into the equations to get the result that I am expecting." Yada, yada, yada...

    Apologies for rambling on, and thanks if you stuck it out this far
    Just because I took the red pill, it doesn't mean that I washed it down with the koolaid

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    Default Re: The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

    Look at this interactive site.... it shows the varous levels of Sea Ice Area in the Artic... the yellow line is 2012.. shows and increase in ice this past winter and a huge loss this summer.....

    http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosph...teractive.html
    "Vision without action is merely a dream.
    Action without vision just passes the time.
    Vision with action can change the world." Joel Arthur Barker

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