The Inauthentic Spirituality of the Alternative Scene

[Reaver]

Posted by Enishi
In my own experience, growing in awareness via Taoist mediation practices and other avenues actually causes me to become MORE sensitive to the negative aspects of this world, but awareness of the non-linear helps to alleviate the suffering born of feeling trapped in a short-term, linear sense. As a result, physical and emotional pain can actually be worse than before, but at the same time one 'suffers' less.

This is a result of a direct confrontation with those monsters. You could use a plethora of band-aids to treat symptoms and feel good for a while, but since the root causes are ignored, then the pain will start to grow. A drug abuser is not addicted to the drug itself, but to the pacifying or invigorating effects of the drug... but since this never tackles the root, then it will start to fail at some point so the drug abuser will need larger and larger doses... I guess the consequences are obvious to most at this point so I won't get into details.

In a similar vein, these mental gymnastics are a mere emotional drug which will fail eventually. So ironically anyone who uses mere band-aids is in for a constant pain,a void of sorts. The one who actually feels the true pain and faces the root causes will suffer, but that suffering is legitimate and when understood, it can be destroyed or transmuted. This is the Hero leaping into the Abyss, who will be reborn after going through a metaphorical and sometimes literal hell. In a sense you build immunity and since you understand the demon's anatomy, you'll be able to use counter measures which are rooted in a genuine understanding with their degree of Intuition and Reason.

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Reaver (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn
One also has to consider that although it seems appropriate to remove all "imagination" from "real", the two are actually completely bound to each other -- and not by spirit / magic / witchcraft or sorcery, but by simple logic of the progression of the creation of "reality".

Did I ever imply that Imagination has no impact on the "real"? The point I'm trying to make is that some people use imagination as a means of escapism from the harsh reality we currently live in. Imagination is ONE of the key factors that will help us to get out of this mess (if ever) when channeled properly and when it is combined with other elements as to increase its effectiveness and practicality.

I was responding to ths specifically:

Posted by Gloriouspoetry
All is imagination, when we have woken up from the nightmare we have created in this world we can begin to imagine and create another kind of world.

This is the kind of thing I'm writing against. A mindset where humans would like to believe that all is just some sick cosmic joke. A band-aid to avoid facing the monsters which are devouring the world.

-- what she stated was correct, everything in this world has been born of imagination -- nothing came into this world without it being imagined first - nothing. It's not that it is a "part" of it, but rather it is the sole beginning of everything -- exactly as this lady had posted. My point was actually to show that what you interpreted her as saying was specific and correct from your point of view -- and also what she said was also correct from the point of view she had -- I backed that up with an explanation that she did not. Did you think that you may just be misunderstanding her, or just not seeing it from her perspective and that it may be valid? This is where this comes in ...

Posted by DeDukshyn
If I ask for confirmation in my understanding, before responding, this shift is lent to. If I can use empathy to try to see the main point of where someone is coming from before telling them they are wrong, I have lent to this shift.

============================================

Back to this for a minute though ...

Posted by Reaver (here)
... some people use imagination as a means of escapism from the harsh reality we currently live in. Imagination is ONE of the key factors that will help us to get out of this mess (if ever) when channeled properly and when it is combined with other elements as to increase its effectiveness and practicality.

I fully agree with you here. This is very true. However, this is nothing new. There has always been and likely always will be a subset of people that "dream" more than they "act". I cannot change them, nor do I feel the need to, nor do I feel authorized to. I'm ok with letting them have their beliefs and imaginations, some of these go on to become great artists who spread a message through non-traditional means. I am no on to judge process that are outside of my understanding.

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Posted by Reaver (here)
See it is one thing to imagine a system and then proceed to make comparisons with previous or existing systems. Then you'd have to go through a process of trial an error, make constant adjustments, you would have to use Reason to a degree... maybe you'd need to destroy it and begin anew, you'll come across obstacles like the current system and its monsters... but it's a disturbing matter when people think that all you need to change the world is the vision of a better world. The former is intelligent even if it crashes and burns because it seeks to refine itself by using a plethora of tools, the latter is delusional because it only pursues the feel good effect and rests on irrational faith.

I see you point, but also consider all that you listed above starts as a mind process. Reason happens in the mind, comparison happens in the mind, adjustments need to be chosen by the mind. I may accuse people of trying to create "reality" from their minds if that keeps up

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Posted by Reaver (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn
There currently is only a very tiny shift required to change the world. The example you gave shows how subtle this shift need be.

What is the thought process you follow/implement to reach this conclusion? How can a "very tiny shift" revolutionize human awareness? what is this "subtle" change all about? is it meditation? is it reason? is it hope?

I sense sarcasm ... but If you really want to know I can teach you a little of how to come to these conclusions and why they work -- the key is communication because like imagination, communication is also a creator of our "reality". It is actually simple, but our minds have weird blockages that can block the most logical of things, I don't know how or why, but I do know when the blockages are cleared, a shift occurs and you can never go back to the old way of thinking ever again -- but this is good thing for most and is how I see that the world is indeed changing from the inside out.

If you are not 100% interested I don't want to waste my or your time.

My 2 cents

[danimyl]

Reaver! Now here is someone who is ready to hear. Right, right, and right, I say in regard to this post. Take a moment my friend and be available in your heart. Your feelings are shared by many.

The Placebos coming out of the human mind didn't help before, so why should they prove effective now?

The difference now is that this did not come from the human mind:

when you look about, either at home or in foreign lands, you will find there is a great poverty, a great poverty in that people’s lives are not demonstrating this Presence and the power of this Knowledge. The look of disappointment and dissatisfaction, the sense of regret in the older people, the sense of hopelessness and discouragement in the young [are] evidence that this Power and this Presence are not being experienced. Religion has become now a yoke and a harness for people, requiring them to believe along certain prescribed lines of thought and to behave along certain prescribed lines of behavior. But this is far from the essence of what religion is really for.

I hope you'll take a moment with it.

[Reaver]

Posted by DeDukshyn
-- what she stated was correct, everything in this world has been born of imagination -- nothing came into this world without it being imagined first - nothing. It's not that it is a "part" of it, but rather it is the sole beginning of everything -- exactly as this lady had posted. My point was actually to show that what you interpreted her as saying was specific and correct from your point of view -- and also what she said was also correct from the point of view she had -- I backed that up with an explanation that she did not. Did you think that you may just be misunderstanding her, or just not seeing it from her perspective and that it may be valid? This is where this comes in ...

$200 and my arrogance say I'm spot on in my judgement. Still... I'll concede there's room for me to be wrong. The again we'll have to wait for a reply of hers which goes more in depth.

Posted by DeDukshyn
I fully agree with you here. This is very true. However, this is nothing new. There has always been and likely always will be a subset of people that "dream" more than they "act". I cannot change them, nor do I feel the need to, nor do I feel authorised to. I'm ok with letting them have their beliefs and imaginations, some of these go on to become great artists who spread a message through non-traditional means. I am no on to judge process that are outside of my understanding.

See... this degree of tolerance can go both ways. One has to take a closer look at it. If you tolerate such fantasies from people who are religious, then don't be surprised when you see Holy Wars or insane rites of passage. If people within the alternative media take a stance of "fantasize all day" don't be surprised to see the Orwellian Paradigm getting stronger. Now I'm not just talking about the kind of action that is taken to the streets to raze everything to the ground... rather I'm talking about a creative input, something which is capable of countering the Leviathan to some degree. From a poem to a scientific discovery. Now I get that such process can take quite a while, I mean to find out some medium of expression that you are comfortable with... but there are some people who have been stuck for years and years telling themselves that "all is as it should be"... Those kind of people need a kick in their ass, not positive reinforcement. Then again some are lost cases.

And I'm not saying that you should go around pounding people with a war hammer, rather I'm talking about an attitude which truly challenges them to become more, sometimes you have to get under people's skin in very non political correct way.

Posted by DeDukshyn
I see you point, but also consider all that you listed above starts as a mind process. Reason happens in the mind, comparison happens in the mind, adjustments need to be choosen by the mind. I may accuse people of trying to create "reality" from their minds if that keeps up

Yeah so? I like to think I'm not that stupid, so yeah of course I understand there's a large degree of mental activity involved in those and that they have their root in Imagination. The main point I was trying to make is that one of those expressions lead to delusions and denial while the other leads to some sort of evolution by confronting and accepting reality in all its grandiosity and monstrosity.

Posted by DeDukshyn
I sense sarcasm

Not at all. I was being dead serious.

[norman]

Posted by Reaver (here)


Not at all. I was being dead serious.

Reaver, I'm so glad to see you are actually getting your rubber on the road these days.

Watch out for small children around the blind bends..... ... oh, and maybe a Volkswagen with the wheels off.

[modwiz]

Hey, Reaver. Feeling the love yet? 9eagle9 skyped this to me:

You may let Reaver know that I practically wet my pants reading his post

I could have sent this to you in a PM, but there may be a handful of people glad to hear a peep(ee) out her.

[DeDukshyn]

$200 and my arrogance say I'm spot on in my judgement.

It matters not, you made an assumption without knowing and projected it on someone. Just because it may correlate to a similar answer does not mean you "knew". Eventually a million monkeys in eternity will type Shakespeare (well it's not true but you know the saying).

All besides the point though, and not worth wasting more keystrokes on ...

And this brings me straight back to communication again and the true problems on earth - lazy people with imaginations is such a small problem in the grand scheme, well, from my pov. But again, I'm not disagreeing with your overall point. I do agree it is a bit of an a issue. I think of Avalon as being a bit authentically spiritually anemic as well, but I digress.

So, please don't get me wrong about my intent - I agree with your OP and I am picking on small things with you with purpose (something others don't see) -- I don't really mean any of it - it is just demonstration to reveal a larger picture that I hope others can relate with and bring further discussion. This will go a bit off topic but just to enlarge the picture for bigger discussion.



Problem on earth is that things look dire, and humanity is under the "control" of an elite that appears to only have their own interests at heart with choices and decisions.

So, the traditional way of dealing with a scenario like this has always been to attempt to remove the offending parties from power with force. Well, there have been many grand kingdoms that have fallen due directly to this process over thousands of years ... many, many, many times, but the overall problem never seems to leave. But this time it will work! Right? After-all if I fight hard enough .... maybe we never fought hard enough previously? Maybe a billion more people need to die fighting? I guess that is better than a billion dying without fighting, but if we fight - we will lose. They want us to fight to justify their attack on us. As soon as we attack them -- boom there's a fight and we lose. This has been the case for thousands and thousands of years.

If traditional fighting works, why isn't it working? Could it be that we are wrong? Could it be that "fighting" the elite is not really the answer?

Let's assume we do fight and for some strange reason against all odds and stats it works this time, and we mange to kill off the current elite. How many years do you think it will be before they establish their control again? There's a line up of people behind every one of those bastards ready and willing to take their place and even if we get all the current ones - more will be born. Each time they have to fight us they get better at it. You see, if we take this approach we aren't thinking about the long term, because we will end up in the same situation again very quickly. Taking them out, killing them, hating, fighting, etc. is the wrong problem to try to solve. The world's problems never have and never will be solved this way.

So I see many many people shouting about how come we aren't fighting!??! and .. If we aren't fighting we must be losing! and .. all this is just ploy to keep the masses divided and fighting amongst ourselves while they get their jobs done. If anyone has a good "fighting" plan they think is foolproof, let us see it please.



So how can this world be fixed? From the inside out through subtle individual shifts in perception. It is our personal responsibility -- one cannot force change in others. Why these shifts? To rid the structure in which their control is implemented through on an individual level.

Their control structure exists inside of our minds -- not in any external system we can dismantle (they'll build a new, better one even if we do - time means nothing to them) -- this is important, and is the reason why outright fighting never has and never will work. This control structure is made from two things "fear" and "reason" -- the two elements that are used by the reactionary mental program often called "ego" (not to be confused with the psychiatric term which is a little different) to implement in your mind the selections in life that they want you to make. Let's look at big Pharma -- fear the disease, reason to yourself that if you take lot's of their drugs you will have better health. This is the only method they need to employ for everything.

Fear WW3? Awesome, do what I say and together we will avert it. Fear a world run by a single "elite" government of ultimate control? Is that the biggest fear? Let me tell you there is a plan in the works that is their solution for you -- and you will not know it is them, and you will readily accept it. Why? because the fear of the alternative was too horrible to bear and they made you select. Little did you know that both available selections that you "reasoned" with your fear was theirs. This is their process and you cannot win it if you play this game. They will just keep planning bigger atrocities and offering you a better way as someone else, ad infinitum.

We must stop playing this game! It is the only way due to the mechanism of their control being within our own minds. It is encoded culturally and passed from generation to generation, institution to institution, and seems "normal" to us because there is a certain logic behind it. But that apparent logic is not even really logic, but a twisted type of logic that is actually driven by emotional response.

The key to removing this "program" from our minds is within this subtle shift of perception I was referring to previously. Is any of this starting to make sense? There's a lot more to cover but that is the underlying principle - I should give more detailed examples perhaps ... I need to take a break ...




¤=[Post Update]=¤

Hey Modwiz ... So 9Eagle is wet for Reaver? Is that what you said? <snicker, snicker>

I know you guys are rooting against me , but that is just because you don't understand me -- perfectly fine. I'm not in a fight or debate with Reaver anyway, although to some it may see so.

Say hi to her for me

[modwiz]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
[/COLOR]Hey Modwiz ... So 9Eagle is wet for Reaver? Is that what you said? <snicker, snicker>

I know you guys are rooting against me , but that is just because you don't understand me -- perfectly fine. I'm not in a fight or debate with Reaver anyway, although to some it may see so.

Say hi to her for me

Will do. BTW,she said almost wet herself. Almost doesn't count.

Rooting against you? C'mon, some demon in your head told you that. That phrase alone, 'rooting against me' would get you smeared with eagle feces if the eagle was still around. Of course, it would be for your own good.

[DeDukshyn]

Lolz, I thought I told Rocky to stay out of my head .... hehe, I'm not even sure what that phrase actually means .. what is "rooting"? .. lol

[modwiz]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
Lolz, I thought I told Rocky to stay out of my head .... hehe, I'm not even sure what that phrase actually means .. what is "rooting"? .. lol

It means to cheer on, rah rah rah, kind of thing. Go team, or you go, girl.

[DeDukshyn]

Ok, so I took a quick break, I think I have ADD or somethign and can't keep things for long ...

Anyways, so based on what I wrote in the previous post, I think the "fight" has to be brought to the masses -- we need to work with them. Why? Because without them the "elite's" funding and power do not exist. If we remove the control over the masses from the equation -- that is goal. Remember it is still the same goal that we had when we wanted to fight or try to remove them from power, but while we are all programmed to believe that that method is the only solution, it has never properly worked in all history, temporarily at best, but because the actual control structure is inside our minds, all they have to do is activate that at a later time.

The solution I am implementing is to give people tools to break down this mechanism inside their minds, so that the can learn to alleviate within their minds the two main mechanisms of control -- Fear and Reasons. Why am I doing this? Because I have been studying this problem for 15 years, my occupation is problem solving and implementing solutions -- I get paid fairly well for the skill I have, I have examined all the possibilities, I have examined carefully this whole mechanism and how it works, and it is of my firm opinion that only a shift in perception is required to reveal this mechanism and free people from doing the elite's bidding. This is integral to the solution in that without it -- there will never be a solution other than those implemented by the elite themselves to satisfy you of a larger fear, or at best, their ways will return because we are their "enablers".

I used shop with a fear of spending too much money. No I shop completely regardless of how much I spend. No more fear of poverty -- that is a control mechanism of theirs. I now buyh almost exclusively local and/or organic foods and ya, it does cost more. But guess what? The food is higher quality with more nutrients and my family will eat less -- I have already noticed this. My fear was mostly unfounded.

I used to fear sickness. I spent a lot of money on supplements and would go to the doctor whenever I got a cold / flu etc. Now, I eat decently, take a multi and a couple other things, and when I get cold or flu -- no drugs at all. No flu shots.

So after I alleviated some of my fears, I ...

-Don't buy GMOs if I can help it.
-Don't buy foods saturated in big Chemical concoctions.
-Don't buy drugs unless I REALLY need it to live / remedy

Just these three small choices -- all previous profits to the fund the "elite" programs like Monsanto -- I no longer contribute to. The funny thing is I did this quite a long time ago -- before I even started hearing about the horror stories of Monsanto. So why did I make these changes.? They happened naturally and automatically after I started "choosing" with love, instead of 'reacting" with fear. I decided I loved myself and my body enough that I wanted to make these choices.

Now many people WANT to make these choice but do not -- those people still are driven by fear .. it obvious. Fear is the paralyzing force that prevents you from making a proper choice, and it must be eliminated from the place it was never supposed to be (in the forefront of our minds for selection basing -- it is valid as an occasional personal survival tool only)

I have posted in a few places the difference between a choice and a decision -- this distinction is important because you can look at what you are selecting and determine if it is a choice in love or a decision in fear - so subtle a difference, most would write off the whole concept and many do, but so profound the implications of this tiny shift in perception, it alone can make the difference between being controlled or having true freedom ...





The distinction between a "choice" and a "decision" and how to break the control mechanism implanted into our minds and manipulated by the "elite" ...

CHOICE: To select after consideration
DECISION: To select based on a consideration

such a tiny subtle difference with such grand implications.

A - "Choose .... "

A - "Why did you choose that?"
B - "I chose that because .... <insert reason here> "

A - "So based on that consideration you selected .... <insert selection>?"
B - "Yes that was my choice"

A - "Look at the definitions again -- that was a decision based on a reason was it not? Not a choice."
B - "I guess it was, Ok this time I'll choose ... I choose <insert selection>"

A - "Why did you choose that?"
B - "I chose that because .. oh wait ... you got me, it's not a choice if I use a 'because', is it?"

A - "Exactly! A choice is a selection not based on any consideration, but merely a selection with all considerations in mind, but the choice is made from what you love and what you really want, often despite all the considerations"
B - "So if I make selections based on the considerations, then I am merely being a pawn to pre-established 'Reasons' that may not even be my own?"

A - "Yes, that is correct, you cannot have true freedom while all your selections are tied to pre-existing reasons, in that state you exist as a follower of 'reason' and can be easily manipulated. All one has to do is convince you of a reason via any method (fear, lies, spins, 'statistics', religion, media, social pressure, etc), and they can control how you select. This is the current state of the relationship between the Earth's 'elite' and the working class."


Be Un-Reasonable! Shift as much of your selection making away from being "decisions" and toward being genuine "choices". 99% of the people on earth are fooled into believing they are making choices with their 'free will'. Nothing could be further from the truth. This is in part due to the lost distinction between what is a "Choice" and what is a "Decision" -- most people would not have that distinction, and lost with that distinction is their true freedom of "Choice"

Become unpredictable and unreasonable, besides, who needs the stress? All is Well! Choose well! Whatever you choose will be far grander than the selections your are forced into settling on to alleviate the fear that drives "reasons". I promise you this, just think about it for a minute ... As small children we all still knew how to "choose", until that is, we were taught to select by "reason" only.

[DeDukshyn]

As I said, this is off topic and I am not arguing that people aren't inherently "lazy" -- always has been and always will be.

On the upside -- this perceived problem of "imagination" is actually getting better. Despite what we see in the media, despite our better weapons, despite our higher populations, there are less people dying in wars and conflicts than in almost any other period in history. This is 100% true - check stats if you don't believe me.

And this is just another example of how they control you and us. Via media, we are fearing more and more, but actually, in reality the world is getting better and better. Less people are dying in conflict all the time, crime is going DOWN? Don't believe me? Then don't trust me but do yourself a favour and check stats.

Now why would they be reporting that the world is getting worse when people (the masses) are actually getting better? Any guesses? Maybe to trigger that fear in your mind to make you react.

We must be careful what we react to and how we react ... they want us to play their game ... because they know if we do, they cannot lose ...

I f we employ within ourselves and share with our brothers and sisters all the techniques for removing that program mechanism of action from our (the masses) minds, then the elite have no hope in hell and the problem is permanently solved.

I ain't into temporary solutions or solutions that don't work. So you will never see me "fighting" (well, I don't believe in "never" so "unlikely" is the best word ... ) except to share this wisdom that alleviates us from their control.

Sometimes the choices we will have/want to make will be unorthodox ... so be it. Do we want a solution or a fight we can't win?

My 2 cents.

As I said, off topic, but I wanted to share with you what I said I would. There are lots more of considerations, lots of details, I hope I was clear enough with what I intended to get out. I didn't get much into the communication aspect .. maybe a bit later .. need another break ...

[Arrowwind]

I have not had time to read this total thread... but I 'm just gonna risk saying that there is no such thing as Inauthenic spirituality.
All people are attracted to and working at a level that they are needing learning on... there is no exception. It is a spontaneous occurance of events that brings us to exactly where we need to be. If it appears inauthenic to someone it is only because they have forgotten what it is like to be in that position and at that level of learning, dealing with whatever false notions of reality are running them.

Even if someone appears to be "inauthenic", trying too hard, wearing a mask of being what is not inside, pretending to be other than what they are, trying to be something else, trying to live in joy instead of the pain they have inside, that inauthenticy is truely authenic for the conflicts and struggles that they are dealing with in the moment. They must be allowed to play out their dramas till they can see themselves for their truths and authenically grow.

Frankley, I think that there are some very highly evolved folks in the "alternative" seen, be it alternative energy, alternative health, alternative foods, as well as the political scene, the Christian scene, the Muslim scene, the Sufi scene, the University scene, the corporate scene, the artists scene, the conventional medical scene, as well as the conspiratory scene. any scene you want to consider there are good and spiritually evolving people learning and doing exactly what they need to be doing to get to the next stop of their evolution.

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by modwiz (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
Lolz, I thought I told Rocky to stay out of my head .... hehe, I'm not even sure what that phrase actually means .. what is "rooting"? .. lol

It means to cheer on, rah rah rah, kind of thing. Go team, or you go, girl.

hmmm ... maybe poor choice of words then, I think to get across more closely what I meant ... oh well. sht happens! It was still in ballpark though so your post is still well valid <ducks, and looks out for eagle poo>

[Finefeather]

Posted by Reaver (here)

Posted by Gloriouspoetry
All is imagination, when we have woken up from the nightmare we have created in this world we can begin to imagine and create another kind of world.

This is the kind of thing I'm writing against. A mindset where humans would like to believe that all is just some sick cosmic joke. A band-aid to avoid facing the monsters which are devouring the world.

See many of the people on the alternative media use the term: "this is just an illusion" is such a vague way that I can tell they don't understand what they are talking about, they just happen to watch and read many encouraging works which constantly remind the audience how this is all just a product of their [insert adjective] mind. If I'd ask many of these people to try and write a treatise on the idea that this realm of matter in an illusion or on Imagination for that matter, they'd come up short.

The fact of the matter is some people reduce the world of matter to a "mere illusion" where nothing is real as an escape mechanism. But, that really doesn't reflect reality to any sensible degree. When you contemplate the idea, you'll find that is has nothing to do with the realm of matter being a phantasm and what goes on within it is just some illusion. I mean these same people who vehemently claim the world of matter to be a mere illusion will cry like little girls whenever their arm is broken.

Understand that what has happened is that humans have gone through a seriously ****ed up process of dissociation and the result is an insane behavior and insane perceptions of the surrounding world and of themselves. Maya then becomes the resulting veil of ignorance and the fragmentation of human consciousness... but is DOES NOT mean that the world of matter is just some cosmic joke which will be fixed with beautiful thoughts.

Surely Imagination is a key factor, anyone can imagine beautiful societies... but it's a completely different matter altogether to bring these kind of societies about. Friction will take place because very few people are willing to cope with the painful process of Individuation.

DISCLAIMER: I POSTED THIS BEFORE I EVEN FINISHED THE PRODUCT BY ACCIDENT, SO THIS IS STILL A WORK IN PROGRESS

Now is it that the world of matter is a mere illusion? or is it the we have a narrow understanding of it and the underlying factors which give birth to matter? or is it that the pain of existing in such a messed up place invites us to rationalize our problems and we delude ourselves by repeating: this is just an illusion, intent is gonna fix it all... well the hippies certainly had a lot of positive intent and that didn't sop the madness.

The current state of the world can be seen as a metaphorical nightmare. That doesn't mean that insanity is just a made up concept because when you look at it, it has a very long reach. By just imagining a better future, you won't bring about a better world. Such imagination has to be accompanied by a deconstructive process which will plunge you into the dark abyss. So the Maya can hopefully be broken by Knowledge (and no Knowledge is not just some mechanistic and boring BS, it can be very beautiful and creative), Hard Work and Dedication.

The Placebos coming out of the human mind didn't help before, so why should they prove effective now?

Well I must say, Reaver, that you have an interesting...and advanced mind for your age...I say that because you are a lot younger than I, and when I was your age my mind was ONLY fixed on wine, women and song ...but as you can see from my age I have grown up a bit.
It is not my intention to criticize you, merely to offer you some information for your consideration. With such a great attitude I feel it is important that you get as many other ideas as possible so you can straighten out your thinking...because I think you have a lot to offer the world and that is all that matters. So please read this with that in mind...and know, that I give this to you with love.

First...to Gloriouspoetry...Imagination is not the same as illusion. Imagination is the beginning of a creative process, albeit somewhat misdirected most of the time...illusion is state of mind which comes from a lack of knowledge.

I think we are misunderstanding the true nature of illusion. I agree with Reaver that most people who use this word have not got the slightest idea of the reality behind it...for it hides many subtle truths. In stating that people have a narrow understanding of this word may be partially correct at times, but, we might just be surprised to learn how little we know about illusion when we meet up with someone out there who know it's real meaning. This is a vast subject and there is more to 'illusion' than meets the eye

The 'reality' of the matter is that the word illusion is often used where it does not strictly apply and we should not lump all mental deceptive states under one name.
The word 'illusion', when used in occult terms, is somewhat misunderstood in the English language because it is used as a translation of the word Maya...now if you look at Wiki:

Maya or Māyā (Sanskrit माया māyāa[›]), in Indian religions, has multiple meanings, usually quoted as "illusion", centered on the fact that we do not experience the environment itself but rather a projection of it, created by us. Māyā is the principal deity that manifests, perpetuates and governs the illusion and dream of duality in the phenomenal Universe. For some mystics, this manifestation is real.[1] Each person, each physical object, from the perspective of eternity, is like a brief, disturbed drop of water from an unbounded ocean. The goal of enlightenment is to understand this—more precisely, to experience this: to see intuitively that the distinction between the self and the Universe is a false dichotomy. The distinction between consciousness and physical matter, between mind and body (refer bodymind), is the result of an unenlightened perspective.

Now this definition is IMO only partially correct because it relates Maya to Illusion but leaves out the 3rd factor which is Glamor. It does not distinguish between Maya and Illusion and therefore is confusing and leads to a wrong idea of the esoteric and occult truths. Illusion and Maya are NOT actually the same thing, from an occult point of view, and are not strictly synonymous...AND...we also need to include Glamor into the equation because it completes the picture of deceptions.

To know the true nature of 'illusion' we need to place it in it's hierarchical position under another word, and break that down into 3 because everything that exists has 3 components at the top level - this is based on the trinity of all that exists, everything has 3 levels or realms of existence and they perform different functions, although as far as our little minds are concerned they seem to emanate from the same source, which is technically correct. These 3 components or aspects can be seen as Physical(quality of force), Emotional(astral) and Mental(mind attitude). So the best word I have come up with in my 40 or so years of service on this planet is DECEPTION. This IMO is appropriate because we can be deceived in the full spectrum of ways...like...by objects around us, by other people, and by ourselves...(note the correlation of physical, emotional and mental). In a nutshell it means we can be deceived by anything and everyone. In each case they can be seen as distortions of the real truth, owing to the limitations of the human consciousness.
So when someone talks of illusion he/she might just be right on track and we may be the ones who fails to comprehend this complex deception.

So we should see DECEPTION in 3 forms, Maya...Glamor...and Illusion (note the correlation of physical, emotional and mental). They are all very 'real' We should also keep in mind that there are no walls around these concepts and they often bleed into and out of each other...So very briefly, because this is a huge subject, we have:

Maya (Physical), spoken of in occult terms, is the misunderstanding, of the energies and forces manifesting, and thus, that the physical body or any other physically manifested object is real...where in fact they have no absolute reality. There is only one absolute reality and that is the Spiritual Being...also called the Dweller or 'The One That Knows He Thinks'...and it's constituents. These constituents are the bodies which it uses as it transforms from a Spiritual state to a Physical state, to achieve physical manifestation, and the final or densest one is the etheric or energy body. The physical body, as we see it, is not considered a principle as far as the Spiritual Being is concerned...in other words, the final step down stage is the Etheric Body and NOT the Physical body. The Maya is thinking that you are the body, when in fact you are not. This applies to every physically manifested object in existence...there are no exceptions.
The perceived reality which we experience in this density is a temporary one...and of course we cannot deny the fact that things bump into each other, but this is only the nature of a high density situation. Remember, everything is just vibration, there is no such thing as a solid...BUT...the solid we experience is only there because the Etheric or Energy body of the Spiritual Being is energizing the physical body to keep it's shape, by electromagnetic forces, and to keep it alive, by means of prana or chi...when the Spiritual Being leaves the physical body the physical body disintegrates and the Spiritual Being leaves with it's Emotional and Mental consciousness..it's soul...AND it's higher bodies. Maya is a physical deception.

Glamor (Emotional), is astral in character, and is far more potent at this time than illusion, which we will see next, owing to the enormous majority of people who function astrally/emotionally always. This is a condition where we see others as better than ourselves. We see this clearly in situations where people spend enormous amounts of time and energy and money to attempt to make themselves look better than others, like cosmetics and hairdos and plastic surgery etc etc. These people are delusional and we know that delusion is a false belief about oneself or other people that persists despite its being at variance with the facts in many cases. This is the self deceit of glamor and is, today, one of the biggest tools of the powers who wish to 'enslave us'. Glamor is an emotional deception.

Illusion (Mental), is primarily of a mental nature and is characteristic of the attitude of mind of those people who are more intellectual than emotional...They read a lot, study a lot, yet lack the true inner knowledge. They believe things despite them been known to be incorrect. We see this in false religion and cults and false ideology, and no amount of proof seems to satisfy these people...they are mentally alluded, and we know that illusion is a false impression. These people deceive themselves and are deceived by others simply because they lack real inner knowledge and believe they are making the right choice...despite the facts. We also see illusion in the classic mirage story where people believe they see the water in the distance and if they were more wise they would know it to be an illusion. Illusion is a mental deceptions.

Each of these deceptions we have lumped under the one name of illusion and it is important that we see the divisions because we can best treat or help a brother in need when we know where to start.

The most important thing to realize is that if you or anyone you know is living a life of deception in the form of Maya or Glamor or Illusion then you should ask yourself who is doing the deception?...are you being deceived by others?...or are you the deceiver?

Love to all
Ray

[Reaver]

Posted by Finefeather
Now this definition is IMO only partially correct because it relates Maya to Illusion but leaves out the 3rd factor which is Glamor. It does not distinguish between Maya and Illusion and therefore is confusing and leads to a wrong idea of the esoteric and occult truths. Illusion and Maya are NOT actually the same thing, from an occult point of view, and are not strictly synonymous...AND...we also need to include Glamor into the equation because it completes the picture of deceptions.

Thanks for the heads up

Posted by Finefeather
Maya (Physical), spoken of in occult terms, is the misunderstanding, of the energies and forces manifesting, and thus, that the physical body or any other physically manifested object is real...where in fact they have no absolute reality. There is only one absolute reality and that is the Spiritual Being...also called the Dweller or 'The One That Knows He Thinks'...and it's constituents. These constituents are the bodies which it uses as it transforms from a Spiritual state to a Physical state, to achieve physical manifestation, and the final or densest one is the etheric or energy body. The physical body, as we see it, is not considered a principle as far as the Spiritual Being is concerned...in other words, the final step down stage is the Etheric Body and NOT the Physical body. The Maya is thinking that you are the body, when in fact you are not. This applies to every physically manifested object in existence...there are no exceptions.
The perceived reality which we experience in this density is a temporary one...and of course we cannot deny the fact that things bump into each other, but this is only the nature of a high density situation. Remember, everything is just vibration, there is no such thing as a solid...BUT...the solid we experience is only there because the Etheric or Energy body of the Spiritual Being is energizing the physical body to keep it's shape, by electromagnetic forces, and to keep it alive, by means of prana or chi...when the Spiritual Being leaves the physical body the physical body disintegrates and the Spiritual Being leaves with it's Emotional and Mental consciousness..it's soul...AND it's higher bodies. Maya is a physical deception.

OK I see the sense behind this for the most part, but I would consider the human body to be part of the Human Totality until the body itself dies. After all it's one of your vehicles of expression and can be used as a tool for refinement. Now of course there is the issue of over-identification with the body and that's something you see day in and day out in modern society and to an extent is being reinforced by the dogmas of science. When the physical is elevated to the ultimate reality, then we start to have serious problems.

Posted by Finefeather
The most important thing to realize is that if you or anyone you know is living a life of deception in the form of Maya or Glamor or Illusion then you should ask yourself who is doing the deception?...are you being deceived by others?...or are you the deceiver?

In works both ways. We are born into a world where social conditioning is rampant and after our psyche is dissociated, the powers in charge can rely on humanity's willingness to replicate the process. Ultimately it's up to the individual to break the spell, just as in the Hero's Journey, the Individual in question may have mentors and helpers, but ultimately he/she is the one who has to jump into hell itself and recover useful artifacts.

[Finefeather]

Posted by Reaver (here)

Posted by Finefeather
Maya (Physical), spoken of in occult terms, is the misunderstanding, of the energies and forces manifesting, and thus, that the physical body or any other physically manifested object is real...where in fact they have no absolute reality. There is only one absolute reality and that is the Spiritual Being...also called the Dweller or 'The One That Knows He Thinks'...and it's constituents. These constituents are the bodies which it uses as it transforms from a Spiritual state to a Physical state, to achieve physical manifestation, and the final or densest one is the etheric or energy body. The physical body, as we see it, is not considered a principle as far as the Spiritual Being is concerned...in other words, the final step down stage is the Etheric Body and NOT the Physical body. The Maya is thinking that you are the body, when in fact you are not. This applies to every physically manifested object in existence...there are no exceptions.
The perceived reality which we experience in this density is a temporary one...and of course we cannot deny the fact that things bump into each other, but this is only the nature of a high density situation. Remember, everything is just vibration, there is no such thing as a solid...BUT...the solid we experience is only there because the Etheric or Energy body of the Spiritual Being is energizing the physical body to keep it's shape, by electromagnetic forces, and to keep it alive, by means of prana or chi...when the Spiritual Being leaves the physical body the physical body disintegrates and the Spiritual Being leaves with it's Emotional and Mental consciousness..it's soul...AND it's higher bodies. Maya is a physical deception.

OK I see the sense behind this for the most part, but I would consider the human body to be part of the Human Totality until the body itself dies. After all it's one of your vehicles of expression and can be used as a tool for refinement. Now of course there is the issue of over-identification with the body and that's something you see day in and day out in modern society and to an extent is being reinforced by the dogmas of science. When the physical is elevated to the ultimate reality, then we start to have serious problems.

It is not correct to say that the body is a vehicle of expression because it does not have it's own mind, so it cannot express itself. It would be a little like saying that the clothing you wear has expression. Every organ and cell of the body is controlled by the subconscious mind. Every gesture or movement you make is made by the conscious mind. If you have ever witnessed a person dying you will notice that as they let out the last breath the body, especially the facial features change to such an extent that you can hardly recognise the person because all expression in the face is gone. This varies in accordance with the 'control' the lower mind had on it's vehicle. The only part the body plays is it gives an outward appearance to your identity and displays the expression of the state of our thinking. This is why, as I said the body is not considered a principle of the Spiritual Being, the real you.
When you talk about the "issues of over-identification...etc" we can immediately see the workings of the self deception of the lower mind...what we know as Maya...when we are more enlightened, with the acquisition of true knowledge this Maya is overcome and the true Spiritual Being can get on with it's higher enlightened expression on earth, using the body as a dimensional tool. This is our goal in life...to rid ourselves of lower mind control and allow the Spirit to express.

Love to you
Ray

[Reaver]

Posted by Finefeather
It is not correct to say that the body is a vehicle of expression because it does not have it's own mind, so it cannot express itself. It would be a little like saying that the clothing you wear has expression. Every organ and cell of the body is controlled by the subconscious mind. Every gesture or movement you make is made by the conscious mind. If you have ever witnessed a person dying you will notice that as they let out the last breath the body, especially the facial features change to such an extent that you can hardly recognise the person because all expression in the face is gone. This varies in accordance with the 'control' the lower mind had on it's vehicle. The only part the body plays is it gives an outward appearance to your identity and displays the expression of the state of our thinking. This is why, as I said the body is not considered a principle of the Spiritual Being, the real you.

I never stated that the body can express itself as a mere mechanical thing as many scientists would have you believe. Now I get that there are underlying principles or impulses which are the invisible causes behind the movement of the body and once you take out these underlying causes you are left with a vegetable or a corpse.

Maybe a different wording is needed. Perhaps "The body is a medium through which the human psyche can express itself" would be more appropriate. If you are trying to express ideas and feelings within your psyche and communicate them to the world, then "body action" is needed. A musician wouldn't be able to transmit the Symphonies within his Imagination without using his body to actually write down or play those notes on a musical instrument.

[Finefeather]

Posted by Reaver (here)
Maybe a different wording is needed. Perhaps "The body is a medium through which the human psyche can express itself" would be more appropriate.

Yes that sounds like a good way to 'express' it

Posted by Reaver (here)
If you are trying to express ideas and feelings within your psyche and communicate them to the world, then "body action" is needed. A musician wouldn't be able to transmit the Symphonies within his Imagination without using his body to actually write down or play those notes on a musical instrument.

Well of course "body action" is needed, but it still does not do the expressing...the body cannot walk by itself or talk by itself it requires the life within. When you play baseball you need a bat and that does not mean the bat is expressing itself other than performing it's own individual qualities like...is it a good bat or a bad bat. So as you have said these are mediums or tools or the means to an end. They are not causes, they perform the intentions and actions of the incarnated life, which drives them and does the expressing.
Love to you
Ray

[Chester]

Weird - it seems this post got "duplicated"... the next version is edited and far better.