Thorium would sensibly be the way to go

[Bob]

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by Bobd (here)
Small decentralized modules using miniature neutron generators provide a safe on/of switch, that when the neutrons are turned off the HEAT production stops.

It only makes sense if one is wanting to GET OFF THE GRID is to focus on miniature safe modules - neutron ignitor plus thorium heat source.

Lets build a few; it can't be that hard.

I'm about to go into debt to get off the grid with solar, but I'd rather see something like a thorium based power unit become a reality, thorium is highly available and such a great energy source.

The neutron generators I would believe the various groups that deal with nuclear materials would have a say or two. All that stuff is under license through NRC, basically one of the reasons such never took off.

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-co...t040-0013.html
was one of the first regulations that prevents experimentation with any significant quantities of thorium.

One can't have "refined ore", of a specific grade, or any significant quantities other than incidental material, such as in certain optical camera lenses, or gas mantles

On the same website, do: http://www.nrc.gov/site-help/search....nerator%22&s=+

And there are about 449 reasons why one can't have a neutron generator.

Point is one is BLOCKED from even trying to get any product available that will combine thorium in sufficient quantities plus the neutron source to evoke the heat generation.

This below legislation is kinda a good starting point to read up on and to show how one must have immense safeguards in place to work with the neutron generators used in doing oil well logging (peering into the rock through the casing to see if there is oil on the other side of the pipe).

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-co...full-text.html

The technique IS simple to get heat, plus energy out of the reaction of neutron plus thorium. There are some direct energy to electricity down-converters to deal with the particle creation in the reaction. I was envisioning something like how the fluorescent lamp coatings will convert one frequency energy into another. If one coupled concepts behind the photovoltaics, layered in with assorted thorium layers, like a polymer lithium battery, and build up the design like that, then very solid state systems could be created, using heat, plus "light" output (thermo-electrics).

It is absolutely fascinating the possibilities, the licensing though to get to the stage of anything more than a few milligrams of low grade unrefined material is staggering. I would believe a group willing to actually follow up on something like that could be successful. The science isn't rocket science for small modules.

[TargeT]

well, I guess this just depends on how seriously you take words written on paper, rules and regulations are all fine and dandy, I can collect thorium from the ground, or old used smoke detectors, since thorium comes from the ground as refined as it needs to be either option would work.

If meth can be cooked from ingredients at Waymart, I think a resourceful human could work around the NRC; my failing here is a lack of understanding; I work in information technology not electrical engineering or any other engineering field.

I'll take the risk, someone has to... where should I start?

[Bob]

Posted by TargeT (here)
well, I guess this just depends on how seriously you take words written on paper, rules and regulations are all fine and dandy, I can collect thorium from the ground, or old used smoke detectors, since thorium comes from the ground as refined as it needs to be either option would work.

If meth can be cooked from ingredients at Waymart, I think a resourceful human could work around the NRC; my failing here is a lack of understanding; I work in information technology not electrical engineering or any other engineering field.

I'll take the risk, someone has to... where should I start?

I would start on looking at if one could create something public service, it should get some traction. I think if the goal would be commercialize, TPTB would have one jumping through all sorts of hoops, maybe never getting started. There are articles on the creation of neutrons without needing a nuclear reactor.. Simple types of generators. That would be a good start too - research those generators and come up with costs, where to obtain the materials. From what I remember none of those materials needed to make such neutron generators are on any restriction list. But when the generator is assembled then it comes under a regulation. Operating it places it under another regulation. Thorium of all things exists in electrodes in WELDING RODS used in plasma torches to facilitate keeping the ARC going. Thorium is great for creating an extra charge in the plasma when the high plasma temps are there.. I used a plasma torch with a thorium active electrode that had an argon gas cone around it - I have used one with a nitrogen gas cone also.

One would then need to decide, what is the best method - the postage stamp method has been suggested. A method of coupling layers of transparent photovoltaic plus thorium plus photoluminescent coating (the phosphor down converter to visible) and then using a method of a heat pipe to couple the excess heat out to the heat exchanger. Different types of heat pipes are possible.. Some have been used on motherboards for getting the heat from the chips under a fan for removal of those BTU's.

There has been talk about OPEN SOURCING such a project, maybe crowdfunding to develop.. Todd and I talked about such things in the past but there never seems to be any traction. It could happen I believe if the people together want it, and can show it can be safe to operate..

The detection systems for neutron generation generally would be a neutron pickup tube available off the internet.. A gamma ray scintillator which can do monitoring for the full spectrum would give one an idea of what energy level one is working with.. Used to "tune" the reaction.

Those are some of the starting considerations TargeT.. It IS very doable. It is solid science. The breadcrumbs above should point one in the right direction. BobD

[TargeT]

Residing in the virgin islands gives me a little freedom from regulatory ..... regulation.

I've worked with plasma torches before, but purely for cutting on projects.

I'll need a bit more than breadcrumbs, unfortunately, though I'll look into alternate neutron generation.

thanks for the nudges.

[Bob]

Posted by TargeT (here)

I'll need a bit more than breadcrumbs, unfortunately, though I'll look into alternate neutron generation.

thanks for the nudges.

Nuclear Triggers, as they are alternatively known, (neutron exciters) are the first step at looking at controlled nuclear reactions.

Uranium devices, plutonium devices and a whole host of nasty isotope configurations for boosting have taken the safe use of neutrons out of the mindset of good meaning folks, and warped it into weapons development.

In the 50's believe it or not it was HIGHLY encouraged that kids study nuclear energy for its peaceful uses, such as solving energy, creating nuclear medicines (those proper dose proper level radiation based medicines), BUT something came in and sabotaged it all - and it went crazy. Lots of folks have said look towards Rockefeller and that "type" of empire building as the independents movement sabotage.

I researched this as and had found part of the 50's programs encouraged students to create OVER UNITY batteries, free energy in other words, AEC was backing this type of work back then. To me when it was show that ENERGY could be derived other than from OIL that had to be rapidly controlled by TPTB. There is a book long out of print if one can find it, with amazing experiments that the AEC suggested for high school students, not even college trained folks. THAT is how safe they felt proper nuclear studies could be.

Done right thorium can produce 6X more energy out cleanly. That is WAY over unity.

This works btw:



The above can be adopted to other "electron" generating sources.

As I had mentioned, coupled with a phosphor (like on the inside of fluorescent tubes), and coupled to a photovoltaic, you have energy being produced in the DARK, pretty much for many years..

It is NOT rocket science, it was just HIDDEN science, manipulated to create SHORTAGE MANIPULATION - SCARCITY.. to make a buck.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

Posted by Bobd (here)
1990's late.

I published research on "table top" Thorium - with a neutron trigger system that one can turn on and off, like the ignition of an auto-engine.

The design utilized a concept of a few grams of Thorium with an "ignition plug" (the neutron source as part of the refuel package).

As to "filling stations", a recycle system allowed for the recovery of the spent contained module, and a new one installed, not much harder than going to a petrol station to get refueled.

This system is scalable to home heating, industrial heating and home power and industrial power.

The keys to this system are controlled safe neutron ignition module plus safe Thorium. The output is HEAT. Heat exchangers can just transfer heat and leave any ionizing particles inside the device. Converting the heat through small thermoelectric solid state modules and/or using closed cycle microturbines is possible to run conventional generators.

A totally closed electric production system and heating system is possible.

I had estimated a month's worth of travel (assuming greater than 1800 miles) in an electric vehicle could be achieved with about 10 grams of Thorium. Total cost of the Thorium would be about 10 pounds Sterling.



Of course, this could never be licensed as TPTB want folks to support Aramco, Mobil/Exxon, Shell and Texaco. That the science is there doesn't mean it will ever see such being made available. (sigh)

such things can be made on small scale in a manner that infiltrates un suspecting markets... then once the technology has infiltrated the mass it can be reverse engineered by many all at once and made into a larger scale .. like injecting a virus ... once the virus is spread to millions of humans the technology will kill the existing virus we wish to be done with ..

these things can be done if those with the technology meet those with the resources ...

mwa mwhahahahahaaaaaaargh cough !

N

[TargeT]

Posted by Nanoo Nanoo (here)
such things can be made on small scale in a manner that infiltrates un suspecting markets... then once the technology has infiltrated the mass it can be reverse engineered by many all at once and made into a larger scale .. like injecting a virus ... once the virus is spread to millions of humans the technology will kill the existing virus we wish to be done with ..

these things can be done if those with the technology meet those with the resources ...

mwa mwhahahahahaaaaaaargh cough !

N

this is sort of the mind set I was looking at, get it out there in a small but vastly (via internet) distributed way, don't make a bunch of money off it, don't rock the financial world.. push out "seed" technology that can easily be extrapolated into something more beneficial.

"virus" is a good analogy; I think attempts to change society need to be approached in this manor, it's too subtle when compared to the current patterns, too hard to catch and head off.

[Bob]

Posted by Nanoo Nanoo (here)

Posted by Bobd (here)
1990's late.

I published research on "table top" Thorium


Of course, this could never be licensed as TPTB want folks to support Aramco, Mobil/Exxon, Shell and Texaco. That the science is there doesn't mean it will ever see such being made available. (sigh)

(snipped)
N: "such things can be made on small scale in a manner that infiltrates un suspecting markets... then once the technology has infiltrated the mass it can be reverse engineered by many all at once and made into a larger scale .. like injecting a virus ... once the virus is spread to millions of humans the technology will kill the existing virus we wish to be done with ..


N

It was hoped that it could be fully open sourced, crowd funded. The issues were really the NRC folks want total control on the technology. After the GPS fiasco in the '69-'71 era i vowed never to try the patent route again.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by Nanoo Nanoo (here)
such things can be made on small scale in a manner that infiltrates un suspecting markets... then once the technology has infiltrated the mass it can be reverse engineered by many all at once and made into a larger scale .. like injecting a virus ... once the virus is spread to millions of humans the technology will kill the existing virus we wish to be done with ..

these things can be done if those with the technology meet those with the resources ...

mwa mwhahahahahaaaaaaargh cough !

N

this is sort of the mind set I was looking at, get it out there in a small but vastly (via internet) distributed way, don't make a bunch of money off it, don't rock the financial world.. push out "seed" technology that can easily be extrapolated into something more beneficial.

"virus" is a good analogy; I think attempts to change society need to be approached in this manor, it's too subtle when compared to the current patterns, too hard to catch and head off.

pretty much all modifications happen through virus , in this case modification of our current dis ease. If we can inject small tech into un suspecting markets the techology can be replicated into larger working models by thousands and tens of thousands of individuals which will make current technologies obsolete.

N

[Bob]

TargeT - I found this on Way Back machine - Nuclear Stuff




"Why Should These Guys be the ones to have all the Fun"

some of the links and articles on that page are WILD - Seems one may want to archive that page quick..

Another link I found in the above WayBack machine archive refers to this page in looking at different types of particle beam exciters, neutron proton etc..

http://www.focusfusion.org/

[Shannow]

TargeT,
think it was you who posted about the Farnsworth "fusors" a while ago.

They, or a variant of them can, and are being used to generate neutrons.... http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2012/ph241/klopfer2/

And kids are making them in highschool.

http://fusor.net/newbie/files/Ligon-QED-IE.pdf

[Eram]

Posted by Bobd (here)
1990's late.

I published research on "table top" Thorium - with a neutron trigger system that one can turn on and off, like the ignition of an auto-engine.

The design utilized a concept of a few grams of Thorium with an "ignition plug" (the neutron source as part of the refuel package).

As to "filling stations", a recycle system allowed for the recovery of the spent contained module, and a new one installed, not much harder than going to a petrol station to get refueled.

This system is scalable to home heating, industrial heating and home power and industrial power.

The keys to this system are controlled safe neutron ignition module plus safe Thorium. The output is HEAT. Heat exchangers can just transfer heat and leave any ionizing particles inside the device. Converting the heat through small thermoelectric solid state modules and/or using closed cycle microturbines is possible to run conventional generators.

A totally closed electric production system and heating system is possible.

I had estimated a month's worth of travel (assuming greater than 1800 miles) in an electric vehicle could be achieved with about 10 grams of Thorium. Total cost of the Thorium would be about 10 pounds Sterling.



Of course, this could never be licensed as TPTB want folks to support Aramco, Mobil/Exxon, Shell and Texaco. That the science is there doesn't mean it will ever see such being made available. (sigh)

Hi Bobd,

How is your look on safety in respect these kind of little thorium reactors?
Would some one be able to sabotage one and create a disaster?

[Etherios]

Posted by Eram (here)

Posted by Bobd (here)
1990's late.

I published research on "table top" Thorium - with a neutron trigger system that one can turn on and off, like the ignition of an auto-engine.

The design utilized a concept of a few grams of Thorium with an "ignition plug" (the neutron source as part of the refuel package).

As to "filling stations", a recycle system allowed for the recovery of the spent contained module, and a new one installed, not much harder than going to a petrol station to get refueled.

This system is scalable to home heating, industrial heating and home power and industrial power.

The keys to this system are controlled safe neutron ignition module plus safe Thorium. The output is HEAT. Heat exchangers can just transfer heat and leave any ionizing particles inside the device. Converting the heat through small thermoelectric solid state modules and/or using closed cycle microturbines is possible to run conventional generators.

A totally closed electric production system and heating system is possible.

I had estimated a month's worth of travel (assuming greater than 1800 miles) in an electric vehicle could be achieved with about 10 grams of Thorium. Total cost of the Thorium would be about 10 pounds Sterling.



Of course, this could never be licensed as TPTB want folks to support Aramco, Mobil/Exxon, Shell and Texaco. That the science is there doesn't mean it will ever see such being made available. (sigh)

Hi Bobd,

How is your look on safety in respect these kind of little thorium reactors?
Would some one be able to sabotage one and create a disaster?

thats the good about thorium ... if you stop / sabotage the reactor it will stop working by it self and as it isnt radioactive it will just shutdown nothing else.

not an expert tho thats what i read in a few articles about it.

[TargeT]

Posted by Etherios (here)

Posted by Eram (here)

Hi Bobd,

How is your look on safety in respect these kind of little thorium reactors?
Would some one be able to sabotage one and create a disaster?

thats the good about thorium ... if you stop / sabotage the reactor it will stop working by it self and as it isnt radioactive it will just shutdown nothing else.

not an expert tho thats what i read in a few articles about it.

yes, this is the MAIN reason why Thorium based reactors (a Thorium based reactor is usualy refering to a LFTR (Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor) system).


here's the basic gist of the system:

Thorium is suspended in molten Fluoride (a salt, Liquid salts are one of THE MOST chemically stable liquids we currently know of). in a "loop" system, where the natural heating and cooling of the liquid salt will circulate it through the reactor, while the reactor is creating power there is a drain line with a cooling fan at the bottom (gravity will do all that is needed) of the unit; if any failure or need to stop reaction occurs, the cooling fan is simply turned off, the molten salt melts the solid salt "plug" and the solution flows out of the reactor into a collection tank, where it can no-longer react and will solidify back to solid salt.

So LFTR systems run at regular pressure, do not need a cooling system & have a built in safety over ride that needs nothing but gravity (which we can pretty much count on). These alone make it suicidal to not be using a LFTR system.

Here's a diagram of what I'm trying to explain:


That's the basic top-of-my-head break down on LFTR (thorium) systems.

Here's an indepth explanation in 5 min about LFTR systems:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZsmezEOXDjU

NOTE

all of this does not answer the question posed here:

Posted by Eram (here)

Hi Bobd,

How is your look on safety in respect these kind of little thorium reactors?
Would some one be able to sabotage one and create a disaster?

I have next to zero knowledge on neutron powered thorium packs... I don't understand how they create heat; though I think I do (which is dangerous... haha I could probably guess at how they work and sound like I know what I'm talking about) I'd imagine they are similar to the LFTR system (or could be made to be so) and would benefit from the same safety bonuses.

you see, we purposefully create heavy water reactors (aka BREEDER reactors (BREEDER reactors are what every single nuclear "power" plant is currently on this planet)) which run at ultra high pressure with multiple very dangerous systems that take extensive, expensive systems and highly trained individuals to maintain.

your question now might be... "why?"

well, aside from their concentrating/refinement of nuclear material (for weapons grade plutonium); I postulate that the ultimate control structures the planet currently faces are first: Money, and Second: Energy. With these two things controlled (and energy is the real item IMO...) all else is easily guided in the direction of choice, either by a knowing conspiracy or just "instinct" of predatory sociopaths (Lion's don't meet in dark smokey rooms before they gang up and take down zebra's.. they just do it).

[Bob]

Hi TargeT, Etherios, and Eram - the questions are on safety. With gram amounts of thorium and sub-gram amounts of material to make up the neutron "spark plug", and no "polonium" in the system, nor plutonium, there's no dirty bomb capability, there is no "criticality" capability. I would liken it as dangerous as a lithium battery pack. Safer than gasoline tanks, safer than compressed natural gas. I'd consider it the alternative to hydrocarbon fuel burning. Frankly I would prefer a series parallel arrangement of smaller modules, never having any larger quantity of thorium. It makes for redundancy. A failure of the neutron source means no heat output, no electricity output. I would call these systems energy amplifiers, or multipliers - small amount of energy in to run the neutron "spark plug" and large amount of thermal calories out.

[TargeT]

This video is a tour of the Oak Ridge facility

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=8hA8V8y52BM

Note: at about 2 hours (1:56:00) they are talking about accelerated particle reactors, the whole video is pretty interesting if you are interested in this topic.

[Bob]

Going to briefly bump this thread upwards..

There are some other posts circulating around the forum that thorium is a dangerous leaky method - that is nonsense unless the systems are designed in a shoddy manner.

MACRO multi-gigawatt systems (liquid fluoride-thorium salt reactors) are like saying one knows how to handle an ocean liner after driving a model toy boat in the bath tub..

COMMON SENSE - if thorium can be produced in a micro-thorium-heater package the size of a D sized dry cell USE THAT instead of gigawatt reactors; that "D-Cell" size is back to the model toy boat size, but the energy output is more like a swimming pool in capability instead of a "flash light battery". D-Cell sized thorium heater modules mean recycling is simple, no problems drop it off at the recycling center for the return on the "cash deposit".

Easy to do, clean, doesn't cost billions to setup or maintain, and puts the REAL POWER back to the people who would be energy independent.

Put thorium in a big reactor, and one CAN develop a URANIUM waste burner, taking depleted uranium from dirty bomb technology reactors and inside of 100 years, (not millions of years) we can have ZERO NUCLEAR WASTE on the planet.. This reactor as talked about has been done by General Atomics, the Energy Multiplier reactor.

This isn't rocket science people, it is using a HIDDEN suppressed science which was hidden so TPTB could build a WAR POLITICAL structure to enslave nations and perceived enemies.

Let's move into this REAL over-unity clean energy using the micro-thorium-heater "batteries", please?

[TargeT]

Posted by Bobd (here)
COMMON SENSE - if thorium can be produced in a micro-thorium-heater package the size of a D sized dry cell USE THAT instead of gigawatt reactors; that "D-Cell" size is back to the model toy boat size, but the energy output is more like a swimming pool in capability instead of a "flash light battery". D-Cell sized thorium heater modules mean recycling is simple, no problems drop it off at the recycling center for the return on the "cash deposit".

these small scale energy sources, what are they using to convert heat to electricity? or am I just not understanding how they are harnessing the energy; traditionally it's by using heat to turn a turbine, but there are some alloys that convert heat directly to electricity (we've all seen or heard about the lightening created in volcanoes, so the natural precedence is there).

I guess the concept just isn't solidified in my mind as "ready for market" right now.

[Bob]

I'm not going to get into the precise technical methods (like exactly HOW they are put together) in this thread.. trying to keep this as much as possible in laymens terms so that people don't start getting into nuclear insanity (it leaks, is gonna melt down, etc..) suffice to say, all energy output from the reaction, heat, particle generation, high energy photon production is converted into electricity. Thermopile junctions have worked when the junctions are solid state, not the conventional two types of wires used in thermostatic thermometers.. I would venture more than 6X energy out than in with this configuration. (theory says 60X energy out is the maximum possible in the spallation methods that the liquid salt thorium reactor produces.. I don't believe it as I would add in the cost to run the linear accelerator.. in that configuration, still tho, they are way over unity). A large system could run a closed loop gas turbine like to run a house or factory on, similar in size to one's existing "gas fired furnace", not much different in construction 'cept the thorium modules inserted into the system would be able to be pulled out and recycled easily..

[Rocky_Shorz]

Bump......