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Thread: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

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    Avalon Member Rich's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Yeap Guish, it doesn't need a thought or a belief or anything. Truth stands by itself.
    That's why for me, best way is to make no effort, that way I feel I get the closest to truth.

    Apologies to Chris, my attitude was kind of arrogant, not my words themselves but my attitude was off... as if I knew what people should believe.

    I do think there is an absolute truth but within that any reality can be created, and the reality differs for everyone.

    Bashar has said, the truth is that all truths are true because there is nothing outside of the imagination of the Creator.
    It is a joke to think that time can come to circumvent eternity. ~ACIM

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Quote Posted by EmEx (here)
    I do think there is an absolute truth but within that any reality can be created, and the reality differs for everyone.
    An absolute truth cannot have different realities...only different interpretations, which are created by been ignorant of the absolute truth.
    Quote Posted by EmEx (here)
    Bashar has said, the truth is that all truths are true because there is nothing outside of the imagination of the Creator.
    Well sure... all truths are true...but who determines what is truth and what is not? ...and not all imagination is true...so this Bashar statement is false.

    There is only one reality... and it is only ignorance which creates it's own reality and calls it real.

    No human can determine absolute reality and truth because humans cannot yet be conscious of higher atomic worlds above the causal world. If you are able to be conscious of worlds above the causal, then you will not be a human anymore, and you will know that there is only one absolute reality...and it will not be the one which the majority of humans think it is.

    Humans know so little because they are so little...and that is not an insult, just a fact, which will, by the process of consciousness evolution, change as you begin to see the real reality.

    Bashar also puts out a lot of other fictitious material, but when absolute truth and reality are not known... then, any good story sounds real.

    Take special care
    Ray
    Last edited by Finefeather; 9th May 2015 at 18:32.

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    That's extremely interesting, thank you Finefeather.

    Quote Posted by Finefeather (here)
    There is only one reality... and it is only ignorance which creates it's own reality and calls it real.
    Sounds a lot like what ACIM would say.

    Quote No human can determine absolute reality
    If you had read my other posts you would see that I too belief that humans have a limited perspective.


    Quote humans cannot yet be conscious of higher atomic worlds above the causal world.
    What is the difference between the ''casual'' and ''higher atomic world'' as you call them?

    Quote If you are able to be conscious of worlds above the causal, then you will not be a human anymore, and you will know that there is only one absolute reality...
    It is a joke to think that time can come to circumvent eternity. ~ACIM

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Quote Posted by EmEx (here)
    What is the difference between the ''casual'' and ''higher atomic world'' as you call them?
    When the current human monads (those incarnating now in human organisms) progressed from the animal kingdom to the human kingdom, they individualized...ie they went from an animal group soul to an individual causal envelope.
    However...Not all current humans have come from the animal kingdom...some have moved over/changed their evolutionary path, from the deva kingdom to the human kingdom evolutionary chain...but these are rare and few.

    The causal envelope is what distinguishes humans from lower kingdoms...and ONLY humans have this envelope...it is equivalent to what some have called the higher mental plane...but I find that a little lacking because it is far more than a mental plane.

    So humans have a limited field of consciousness expansion and these are the etheric, the emotional/astral, the mental and then only the causal world...so the fact that we have a causal envelope means that we are in the process of realizing this.

    Each of these levels have sub levels and this makes for great confusion amongst those who believe they have reached great heights of consciousness awareness...like many of the 'famous' Indian gurus who, although somewhat further developed than some humans, are still a long way from causal consciousness.

    The goal of humans is to achieve full causal consciousness after which they move into the next higher kingdom, called the essential kingdom/world...then there is still another higher level to achieve before we enter the Cosmic inner worlds...no human is close to these levels of consciousness yet...but many pretend to be, or think they are.

    Only when this is complete...and the majority of humans have millions of years to go to achieve this...are they then considered as causal Selves...a Causal Self is someone who has completed the human cycle of rebirth because consciousness expansion in the causal envelope has been realized...from that point on incarnation into a human body is a choice, for some reason like service to humanity.

    If you are a Causal Self you will know it for sure at some point in your life...but there are many who pretend to be this when their writings indicate differently.

    So the higher atomic worlds are those worlds above the mental world...we have:
    Physical world...(physical and etheric)...Emotional world...and Mental/Causal world.

    As I have stated previously... no human is capable of accessing worlds above the causal level because humans only become Causal Selves...capable of this...when they complete the human cycle.

    I realize that what I have written may not be accepted by you or anyone...and so be it.

    Ray

    PS: There are 2 waves of humans currently incarnating into organic bodies...older 'souls' who have not yet realised full causal consciousness...and the new 'souls' who individualized some 10 million years ago.
    Last edited by Finefeather; 10th May 2015 at 12:51.

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Quote Posted by Finefeather (here)
    Quote Posted by EmEx (here)
    What is the difference between the ''casual'' and ''higher atomic world'' as you call them?
    When the current human monads (those incarnating now in human organisms) progressed from the animal kingdom to the human kingdom, they individualized...ie they went from an animal group soul to an individual causal envelope.
    However...Not all current humans have come from the animal kingdom...some have moved over/changed their evolutionary path, from the deva kingdom to the human kingdom evolutionary chain...but these are rare and few.

    The causal envelope is what distinguishes humans from lower kingdoms...and ONLY humans have this envelope...it is equivalent to what some have called the higher mental plane...but I find that a little lacking because it is far more than a mental plane.

    So humans have a limited field of consciousness expansion and these are the etheric, the emotional/astral, the mental and then only the causal world...so the fact that we have a causal envelope means that we are in the process of realizing this.

    Each of these levels have sub levels and this makes for great confusion amongst those who believe they have reached great heights of consciousness awareness...like many of the 'famous' Indian gurus who, although somewhat further developed than some humans, are still a long way from causal consciousness.

    The goal of humans is to achieve full causal consciousness after which they move into the next higher kingdom, called the essential kingdom/world...then there is still another higher level to achieve before we enter the Cosmic inner worlds...no human is close to these levels of consciousness yet...but many pretend to be, or think they are.

    Only when this is complete...and the majority of humans have millions of years to go to achieve this...are they then considered as causal Selves...a Causal Self is someone who has completed the human cycle of rebirth because consciousness expansion in the causal envelope has been realized...from that point on incarnation into a human body is a choice, for some reason like service to humanity.

    If you are a Causal Self you will know it for sure at some point in your life...but there are many who pretend to be this when their writings indicate differently.

    So the higher atomic worlds are those worlds above the mental world...we have:
    Physical world...(physical and etheric)...Emotional world...and Mental/Causal world.

    As I have stated previously... no human is capable of accessing worlds above the causal level because humans only become Causal Selves...capable of this...when they complete the human cycle.

    I realize that what I have written may not be accepted by you or anyone...and so be it.

    Ray

    PS: There are 2 waves of humans currently incarnating into organic bodies...older 'souls' who have not yet realised full causal consciousness...and the new 'souls' who individualized some 10 million years ago.
    Ray, how did you come up with that conclusion?

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Quote Posted by Guish (here)
    Ray, how did you come up with that conclusion?
    It would be impossible to answer your question with what might seemingly be your expectations..but the short answer is:

    Remembrance anew and Self realization.

    Remembrance anew is remembering ones past knowledge by triggers which open your mind.
    I have also worked, out of body, in the astral/emotional world since I was 27.
    I have also attended halls of learning in the mental planes on numerous occasions.

    Self realization is knowing who and what you really are.
    We are actually each individual monads...a single primordial atom... which is billions of years old...each of us have developed our consciousness from virtually zero to what it is now...a truly amazing accomplishment which can only truly be realized when you realize from where you have come from.

    Most humans think they are human...have always been human...and will never be anything else but human...but this is not so.

    We each have a past which is so incredible that it will make your jaw drop if you could get your head around it.

    We each have a future ahead of us which no human words can describe...and which is so advanced, from what humans believe, that it cannot be fully communicated at this point in time, because human consciousness cannot grasp the vastness of it yet.

    Ray

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Quote Posted by Finefeather (here)
    Quote Posted by EmEx (here)
    What is the difference between the ''casual'' and ''higher atomic world'' as you call them?
    When the current human monads (those incarnating now in human organisms) progressed from the animal kingdom to the human kingdom, they individualized...ie they went from an animal group soul to an individual causal envelope.
    However...Not all current humans have come from the animal kingdom...some have moved over/changed their evolutionary path, from the deva kingdom to the human kingdom evolutionary chain...but these are rare and few.

    The causal envelope is what distinguishes humans from lower kingdoms...and ONLY humans have this envelope...it is equivalent to what some have called the higher mental plane...but I find that a little lacking because it is far more than a mental plane.

    So humans have a limited field of consciousness expansion and these are the etheric, the emotional/astral, the mental and then only the causal world...so the fact that we have a causal envelope means that we are in the process of realizing this.

    Each of these levels have sub levels and this makes for great confusion amongst those who believe they have reached great heights of consciousness awareness...like many of the 'famous' Indian gurus who, although somewhat further developed than some humans, are still a long way from causal consciousness.

    The goal of humans is to achieve full causal consciousness after which they move into the next higher kingdom, called the essential kingdom/world...then there is still another higher level to achieve before we enter the Cosmic inner worlds...no human is close to these levels of consciousness yet...but many pretend to be, or think they are.

    Only when this is complete...and the majority of humans have millions of years to go to achieve this...are they then considered as causal Selves...a Causal Self is someone who has completed the human cycle of rebirth because consciousness expansion in the causal envelope has been realized...from that point on incarnation into a human body is a choice, for some reason like service to humanity.

    If you are a Causal Self you will know it for sure at some point in your life...but there are many who pretend to be this when their writings indicate differently.

    So the higher atomic worlds are those worlds above the mental world...we have:
    Physical world...(physical and etheric)...Emotional world...and Mental/Causal world.

    As I have stated previously... no human is capable of accessing worlds above the causal level because humans only become Causal Selves...capable of this...when they complete the human cycle.

    I realize that what I have written may not be accepted by you or anyone...and so be it.

    Ray

    PS: There are 2 waves of humans currently incarnating into organic bodies...older 'souls' who have not yet realised full causal consciousness...and the new 'souls' who individualized some 10 million years ago.
    In a nutshell that's "wow" thanks for writing that.

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    All respect to Ray--He is a font of knowledge, well researched and verified by his personal experience.

    I am aware that enlightenment is not the end result.
    At a higher level it might be seen as kindergarten.
    However enlightenment is achievable here and now.
    You cant move beyond human "illusion" without enlightenment and it is not a stage that can be by passed, jumped over, the Self has to be realized or back you come, reincarnating yet again.
    So is enlightenment important? --you bet it is. Its "The Graduation" from this school of Earth.

    Chris
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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    So is enlightenment important? --you bet it is. Its "The Graduation" from this school of Earth.
    Quote Posted by Finefeather (here)
    The goal of humans is to achieve full causal consciousness after which they move into the next higher kingdom
    So what you call full causal consciousness is another word for enlightenment?
    And why do you say the Indian gurus are not enlightened?
    It is a joke to think that time can come to circumvent eternity. ~ACIM

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Quote Posted by EmEx (here)
    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    So is enlightenment important? --you bet it is. Its "The Graduation" from this school of Earth.
    Quote Posted by Finefeather (here)
    The goal of humans is to achieve full causal consciousness after which they move into the next higher kingdom
    So what you call full causal consciousness is another word for enlightenment?
    And why do you say the Indian gurus are not enlightened?
    He** didnt, if you read it properly!
    Last edited by Andrew; 11th May 2015 at 02:29. Reason: I deleted part

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Think Ray commented on the Indian gurus at another time in another thread.
    He might want to clarify.
    I don't agree with everything Ray has ever posted, nor does he agree with some of "my" posts, but he has my respect.

    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Quote Posted by EmEx (here)
    So what you call full causal consciousness is another word for enlightenment?
    And why do you say the Indian gurus are not enlightened?
    Enlightenment is not the same as achieving Causal Consciouness.

    The greatest flaw in the philosophy of 'enlightenment' is it's very many possible meanings...and the shear diversity of it's possible interpretation.

    The word 'enlightenment' can be used correctly in any situation where someone is less informed than another...so we could say to anyone who is ignorant of the most mundane fact that they need to become enlightened.

    Barbarism is a classic case where becoming enlightened is when these ideals are replaced by, say humanism. But even the humanist needs enlightenment.

    There is no moment when anyone becomes enlightened...full stop...because the very word implies that there is something else...maybe in another field... that we can become enlightened about.

    We only need to look at the history of science to see the many graduations of enlightenment.

    Even our dark brother of the so called illuminati become enlightened... enlightenment happens every day to someone

    In and around the 17th century western religions despised the Indian philosophy, which was considered 'evil' because it had no place where we could be saved from ours sins. Indian philosophy became popular in the western world when it was associated with the hippies and smoking pot to trip out to some unknown supposed higher realm...which is of cause just an illusion.

    Indian fake gurus performing all sort of tricks and magic became the in thing, which wowed the ignorant into following their supposed enlightened path.

    The finest Indian philosophy can be found in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. It can be established that Patanjali’s Sutras certainly contain the knowledge of reality but also that no yoga philosopher has been able to interpret them correctly, since no yoga philosopher has yet become a causal self.

    The “nirvana” of the yogi is the individual’s state of sleep in his causal envelope after the dissolution of his mental envelope. That “extinction” is no annihilation, however. Neither yogis nor Buddhists grasp what Buddha meant by nirvana. It should be added, moreover, that Buddhism is a distortion of the teaching of Buddha just as Christianity is a distortion of the teaching of Christos.

    The nirvana of the yoga philosophers is at best the causal world, in which they lose their consciousness. The yoga philosophers deal with their own imaginative constructions which have no correspondences in reality. The yogis have misunderstood Patanjaliís Sutras completely. They read their own findings and experiences into his account, which was intended for initiates. And the result is just one great delusion.

    The greatest myth and non event of Yoga/Indian philosophy is the idea of annihilation of the self...which is impossible to say the least. I hear so many talk of 'becoming one with source' when they have no idea that they are their own source...which is actually what Self realisation is about.

    Never ever do we 'merge with source' because we are already our own individual 'source'. The word 'source' is a misnomer in the context of it's use in spirituality.

    What merges are the individuals with common ideals and goals into a powerful collective. This simple thing has been misinterpreted by humans who believe they must sacrifice themselves to some non existent god...who has been renamed by some as 'source'.

    I hear people talk of body, soul and spirit as if they are separate things which we need to somehow merge… when we are actually each always everyone of these. Matter, consciousness and motion cannot be separated...ever.

    I spent years as a Buddhist...I served in a Buddhist retreat centre...and the goal is bleak once you have reached the so called state of 'enlightenment'...why?...because it is far far from the real goal.

    But let me not deter you from your choice of reality because each life is a learning experience and no one can, or ever will become truly 'enlightened' in any life…

    Enlightenment is just another word for consciousness growth...and it never ceases.

    In my personal experience with Yoga/Indian philosophy 'enlightenment', I have found that most people who claim this meagre state, are ignorantly arrogant about their supposed status...simply because they cannot yet see what still lies ahead.

    There is an esoteric truth which states that the more you know the more you realize how little you know...when you start to realize this then you can consider yourself lucky... because it means that, you will realize that whatever state you are in now... is far far from been enlightened.

    Take care
    Ray

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Yes Ray a lot of truth in what you say.
    Guru get stuck in the side effects of Kundalini---When you can walk on water take the boat is a good expression.
    All the tricks that some Gurus can do leads them to having a strong ego--as in, "Im the one who can perform this."
    My understanding is that there is no person left to claim enlightenment and it was always inherent but not realised.
    For me Tim's thread is clear on what enlightenment is

    Look see.

    https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post456904
    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    I don't agree with all your views or (apparent) beliefs, Ray, but it seems to me you certainly have a very valid point in saying that "enlightenment" is a term loaded with ambiguity and varieties of interpretation. Moreover, you're implicitly saying, very truly, that the ascent of the soul has many transitions as it passes from matter to life-force to mind to lower consciousness to higher consciousness and on. At each such stage ignorance gets shaken off. Chris considers as crucial that point at which that ignorance is shaken off that obliges us to reincarnate here.

    As I understand in both the Vedanta tradition and the Ch'an tradition, the biggest leap of all in many, many ways is that from having a mentally/conceptually defined (and therefore imprisoned) "self" to a "self" based on knowing, such knowing being not intellectual any more but more complete. That transition is the greatest one, to my understanding. Surely, such a transition is a gigantic discarding of the chains of ignorance.

    The Ch'an masters and many Indian adepts were considered to have realized that transition and much more, as far as I understand. Certainly, you could say it's only one step beyond the mental plane(s). One might even point out that in the afterlife the majority of individuals eventually come to rest and "sleep" at a level that lies above the mental levels until their next rebirth. But for many Asian masters that seems to have been only the first hill they have climbed. For instance, many have clearly gone far beyond the "void" and on into the divine worlds, it seems to me. Certainly they've then had to return to living with the limitations of their physical body and their intellect. But you seem to be determined to insist that all their experiences of something greater, something divinely perfect, have been nothing but self-delusion. I don't understand why you would seem to consider you have a superior position to all those great beings, and why you believe you know so much about what they really experienced. I mean, how do you know they all never even touched infinite knowledge?
    Above all, always refuse to cut your life in two: nonduality/duality, matter/Spirit, etc
    A mind which is not crippled by memory has real freedom. ~ J. Krishnamurti
    (True, deep) stillness is the way.

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Quote Posted by Finefeather (here)

    There is no moment when anyone becomes enlightened...full stop...because the very word implies that there is something else...maybe in another field... that we can become enlightened about.
    Very valid point. However, people are not aware that there is something called the source. The most interesting thing is to realise the source is to fully be the source as there's no duality there. One is not different from the source to experience it. One is just the source. It is so hard to put in words, Ray. It has to be ambiguous. Material disentanglement is a long process with many phases. My experience of source is pure energy and there's no way to describe what's infinite, timeless and formless. TH doesn't like when I use the word void but I can't really describe it in other ways.

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Whatever you want to call it there is no denying that it occurs.
    Ramana Maharshi is classic---a teen with no spiritual ambition.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramana_Maharshi

    There are fuller descriptions than can be found in Google search

    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    For me Rama is an authority.
    He advised using the thorn to extract the thorn then throw both away.
    So the intellect is used to remove the ego then both are discarded.
    He advocated self inquiry.
    Not this, not this, is helpful.
    So through the process of elimination the Self is revealed.

    Its a radically different process from Ray's and it is producing results.
    There is a linage from Ramana of enlightened.

    One indicator, Ramana said you can tell the degree of progress by the level of quietness of the mind.
    This leads to thoughtless awareness.

    Sorry TraineeHuman if this thread has become a little of topic.

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    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Quote Posted by Guish (here)
    The most interesting thing is to realise the source is to fully be the source as there's no duality there. One is not different from the source to experience it. One is just the source. It is so hard to put in words, Ray. It has to be ambiguous. Material disentanglement is a long process with many phases. My experience of source is pure energy and there's no way to describe what's infinite, timeless and formless. TH doesn't like when I use the word void but I can't really describe it in other ways.
    Now you see this is very interesting what you have said here.

    Now please know that I am not here to try to convince you or anyone of anything I state because each will and must find the answers him/her self

    You say you have found a solution to duality, by becoming one with this 'source' you believe exists...but this would only be necessary if you perceive duality as a part of your life...and 'source' as been something which you need to 'merge' with to end duality.

    What I am saying...and what I have realised...is that there never was a separation from this 'source' because it is this 'source' which is the real you...the real Being. In true esoterics this 'source' is known as a monad...which is a single primordial atom.

    So duality is only... and simply... a temporary confusion whilst we struggle to get to grips with what is termed 'Self realization'...once we realise who and what we actually are, duality is resolved.

    Now even if someone want's to call this enlightenment...then so be it...because it would certainly be one of the most important things in consciousness growth...but...it is still only the beginning of the rest of our growth towards becoming a Causal Self.

    You also state that source is pure energy.
    In my finding this is not possible because if 'source' is the real Being... as I understand it… then it must also contain all of our past history which we have accumulated for billions of years...this would be our full current state of consciousness...and consciousness is definitely not energy.

    Ray

    Just a little interesting thing to consider about energy:
    Energy cannot be detected without matter…
    There is not one example anyone can give where energy can be shown to exist without the presence of matter.
    The only way we know energy to exist is when it interacts with matter in some form.
    This is one of the mysteries of energy.
    When you think you have an answer...know that you have it wrong...try to think carefully

    Take care

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Yes Ray that is illusion--the thought that there ever was a separate self.
    Only one without a second
    "I am the totality all of it"--is what some Indian sages have said.
    Mooji says "Even I am, is incorrect, there is only am" in other words that which is-- there is no "I"

    People go through stages of discovery--so they are met where they stand.
    Takes a lot to realise that you don't exist as a person.

    Love Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Quote Posted by Guish (here)
    My experience of source is pure energy and there's no way to describe what's infinite, timeless and formless. TH doesn't like when I use the word void but I can't really describe it in other ways.
    I guess I'm interested in the action that goes on without, however calm and profound a voidness or silence and impersonality one may have within. How effective is the outward action? How desireless, yet how useful, how constructive, how needed?

    Also, there are different qualities or types of voidness. Some are totally universal, for instance. And on the other hand, sometimes some mistake formlessness for voidness -- and that's something quite different from the voidness that Source possesses.

    Also, I don't always entirely like using the word "voidness" or "emptiness" because that so-called emptiness is more alive, more dynamic, more intelligent, more free than anything else. The rest of reality is just its shadow, and not the other way around. Everything that's superior to the ego comes out of that "emptiness", inspired by its "energy". To the Western-conditioned individual, though, "emptiness" somehow implies a huge lack of intelligence and life. I do appreciate, though, that the big picture is that it all takes place within the unknowable ultimately, which we can never grasp, however much we may seem we might do for some fleeting moment.

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