The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

[Rich]

I like what another bob said here:

Posted by another bob (here)
Enlightenment is what we already are, but we submit to a kind of amnesia in order for the human experience to seem real.

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post457433

My theory on this:

Those who are enlightened or of ''casual consciousness'' still participate in the physical illusion/dream which is just a (single) thought of our higher self.

I like to compare this earthly existence to a night dream:

When we know that we dream the dream becomes lucid. (That's probably what I would call enlightenment.)
When we know who we are beyond the dream we wake up and the dream ceases, because it is seen as unreal.

Lester Levenson has said some desire is necessary to stay in this life (for him it was probably the desire to help others).


TH, please let us know if this discussion is off topic.

[Guish]

Posted by Finefeather (here)

You also state that source is pure energy.
In my finding this is not possible because if 'source' is the real Being... as I understand it… then it must also contain all of our past history which we have accumulated for billions of years...this would be our full current state of consciousness...and consciousness is definitely not energy.

Good point. It's really beyond words. Apparently, Buddha was able to see all his past lives before enlightenment and they were all noble lives. This proves that it's really a long process. I've not been there yet.

[Guish]

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
I guess I'm interested in the action that goes on without, however calm and profound a voidness or silence and impersonality one may have within. How effective is the outward action? How desireless, yet how useful, how constructive, how needed?

The inner kingdom has a straight influence on the outer world. I find it strange to have inner peace and not influence the outer world. If that's the case, the calmness is a mental construct and not the real thing. For me, the external actions just happen without the constructive thoughts. I find the actions spontaneous and warm.

[Finefeather]

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
Also, I don't always entirely like using the word "voidness" or "emptiness" because that so-called emptiness is more alive, more dynamic, more intelligent, more free than anything else.

In esoterics a similar concept or state is called 'the eternal now'...this is when we experience reality both in the present and in the past...all at the same time...the aeonic time appearing to the causal self as timelessness.
However we should not confuse this with the myth that timelessness is possible because no matter which state we...as an individual Self... are in, the cycle of life will continue.

What this does however prove...to me anyway...is that each higher dimension/world which we access appears to stretch time out as we know it in the physical world...but this is the illusion which many get trapped in when they conclude that time stops when out of body or when in meditation in some state.

I have had an amount of years playing and experimenting out of body and in meditation, in various dimensions/worlds, and have come to the conclusion that this 'voidness', which some experience, is nothing more than experiencing the Self in it's individual state...but it is not an easy state to experience...it takes a lot of dedicated meditation and focus.

It's like having a mind expansion, you can remember a lot of things which you have done in a flash and these events just seem to flood into your consciousness without any noticeable effort.

Ray

[Finefeather]

Posted by Guish (here)
Apparently, Buddha was able to see all his past lives before enlightenment and they were all noble lives. This proves that it's really a long process. I've not been there yet.

Well according to my experience Buddha...and Christos...were extremely advanced Selves. They were both at the Cosmic level, where we have yet to 'conquer', consciously, the planetary level which is in the Solar realms.

Buddha was in effect much higher than a Causal Self and those who reported this event actually had no idea what was truly taking place...this 'enlightenment' was far more advanced than anyone has ever experienced in this planet.

An interesting thing about past lives is that when we get to finally knowing them, it is not nearly like we would imagine it to be...if I may give you a corny example of what it is really like...

Most of our past lives we don't really want to face because we were all some mighty bad dudes in some of those past lives...but in some we were no doubt like little angels

And, my advice is, don't go believing any of the stuff the corner crystal gazer tells you about your past lives...because only a Causal Self can know his/her past lives because all our past history is in the Causal Consciousness 'Dimension'.

Anyway...Imagine that we go on a course, of say cooking, to learn how to cook. We spend time with all our new friends and have some great fun while learning how to cook.
Then years later we don't remember much anymore about the friends and the time we had, but we still remember how to cook because we have been doing it for so long in our nice restaurant.
This learning has instilled into our Self the talent of cooking and in our next life we come back and without much training we just seem to find cooking simple.

This is why we all show some individual talent or talents in our life...these have been learnt before in past lives and when and if we need to use them they easily come back to our memories.
This is called remembrance anew in esoterics and this same phenomena takes place when it comes to our 'spiritual' growth...we remember things which are important to our life's mission.

This is also the answer to those genius kids we often hear about...they are not geniuses...they just remember...often with great confusion...some past life's learning.

This has also taught me that not everyone who incarnates is here to get 'enlightened'... and nagging your wife to read some spiritual books to get her 'right' is actually pointless...when in fact she might be an advanced 'soul'/Self coming here just to straighten you out

One thing for sure is that you can never tell when the filthy guy lying in the gutter is actually an advanced Self who has chosen to move in these circles to lift others out of their rut.

Take care
Ray

[TraineeHuman]

What you call the Causal Self, Ray, seems to be very close to what I have been calling the Higher Mind throughout most of this thread. Yes, the Higher Mind is something mental even though it lies quite above the conceptual levels, and even though we therefore may easily mistake it for our pure spirit. And even though we initially experience the HM through "voiding" everything else in our experience except the pure experiencer -- as in some forms of meditation, and in all forms of meditation to some degree --, nevertheless we discover that the HM sees other consciousnesses and other life as fully "other". Because of that it's still greatly restricted, because by making itself the "sole" center of its universe it's blocking anything higher or deeper from coming through and working through it and with it.

It knows that persons, or personalities, are not the reality, but still it works with them and respects them. Meanwhile it also clearly senses that there is something greater. What it also senses is that it isn't separated -- except through its desire not to let go but to stay in control -- from a greater Master Consciousness, which, yes, is the real Self behind the curtain.

It seems to me that the "enlightenment" most or all of the others have been referring to is the rending of the veil between the HM and Superconsciousness. By the latter I mean the dropping of the need to individually save oneself, so to speak. It's a great "lightening" of one's burdens because it involves a to it amazing discovery. This is the discovery that other selves are truly also not fully separate from one's own self, and that one is actually the universe (from one unique perspective) and more. Therefore goodbye to limitation -- at one's center at least. I do agree with you also, though, that we don't somehow dissolve into Source, at any stage. We expand, we become greater, which means going in the opposite direction to dissolving and fading away.

Enlightenment means one still continues to play the role of being a (supposedly) separate individual, and each individual has something unique and extra to contribute to the whole. But behind it all there's now something universal, and the individual now fully knows this. (Retaining some form of "individual" with some "universal" trumps both "individual" and "universal" on their own.)

And I would say this is a step beyond "the Causal Self", once it's established thoroughly enough. I would prefer to call it Superconsciousness.

[TraineeHuman]

One way the Higher Mind is different from the ordinary mind is that it's extraordinarily wholistic. It sees a very big picture, and it does so instantly, in one sweep. It doesn't need to analyze things, or very little so, because it sees around corners.

The Enlightened Mind -- or make that the Enlightened or Illuminated Consciousness -- is a kind of truth magnet, so to speak. On any question, its compass always points towards the truth (without getting too specific about details), particularly with regard to the important issues, such as those of true spirituality and how to live. The Truth has a great beauty to it. The Illuminated "Mind" is also expert at psychic healing. It's very creative, and lateral, and it's even genius. However, after one has had a (genuine) enlightenment experience, it's initially there only in flashes of brilliance. The individual now needs to go through a very long process indeed of gradually integrating more and more of that brilliance, that Truth, into his or her life and psyche. In this thread I've described this process in quite different terms, as the descension of the Higher Mind into the whole body even down to below the feet (with the Illuminated "Mind" now taking over the overall identity of the Self, where before the HM did this). Maybe I didn't make it clear that I meant this descent occurs at an astral or chakra level, and not the physical. The sexual/survival chakra is particularly interesting, because when the Higher Mind penetrates to there, the subconscious gets unlocked. The practice of embracing one's dark side is therefore intensively activated at that point.

The Higher Mind receives all the Illuminated "Mind"'s knowledge and truth, but the Higher Mind's job is to manage one's life in the everyday, physical world. Because of this, the Higher Mind has to interpret or "translate" the Illuminated insights in such a way as to make them practical. In a sense the Illuminated "Mind" doesn't live in this world -- or, if you like, in its eyes the ordinary everyday world seems nothing more than illusion, a dream, a hologram. The Illuminated "Mind" can also, gradually, descend into full integration with the everyday, but only after the Higher Mind has fully done so first. So that's quite rare. Until such a point, it necessarily lives in another, higher world. Or that's my understanding, at any rate.

[Finefeather]

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
What you call the Causal Self, Ray, seems to be very close to what I have been calling the Higher Mind throughout most of this thread.

Yes...and I agree with your findings...it ties in exactly with the esoteric writings...but we would still need to compare these to see if they coinside.

In esoterics the mental atomic world is divided into 7 dimensions...the top one is the complete Atom level and the 6 below are the molecular levels.
Starting from the bottom...the bottom 4 molecular levels are the normal human mental levels, and the top 3 are the Causal levels...our human goal, according to esoterics, is to achieve full consciousness in the Causal level.

It is possible that this achievement may be regarded as 'enlightenment' but I am still very sceptical about the use of this title.

If I read the writings of those who claim 'enlightenment' they do not match reality as it is in these Causal levels...but that's just my opinion.

Esoteric HUMAN worlds/dimensions

1. Causal(mental) Atom
2. Causal(mental) molecule upper
3. Causal(mental) molecule lower
-----------------------------(enlightenment?)
4. Mental molecule higher
5. Mental molecule
6. Mental molecule
7. Mental molecule lower
--------------------------------------
1. Emotional(astral) Atomic level
2. Emotional(astral) upper or saint hood level
3. Emotional(astral) upper or attractive level
4. Emotional(astral) lower border
5. Emotional(astral) lower repulsive
6. Emotional(astral) lower repulsive
7. Emotional(astral) lower repulsive
--------------------------------
1. Physical real atomic level
2. Physical sub atomic
3. Physical higher etheric
4. Physical etheric (scientific atom)
5. Physical Gaseous
6. Physical Liquid
7. Physical 'Solid'
----------------------------
Each of these levels represent a state of consciousness which humans are largely centered in...then others are sort of sub levels to their life.

A largely physical person may not be very emotional or mental etc.

The thing to note is that most humans...the average...are only conscious at level 4 of the emotional world.

According to Hylozoics there are still another 46 higher atomic levels which is 46x7=322 higher sub levels.

Humans have a long way to go and there is far more that we don't know than what we do know...and many still pretend to know so much

Ray

[Finefeather]

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
One way the Higher Mind is different from the ordinary mind is that it's extraordinarily wholistic. It sees a very big picture, and it does so instantly, in one sweep. It doesn't need to analyze things, or very little so, because it sees around corners.

I like this bit..."it sees around corners"
The reason for this is causal, because causal consciousness is largely about been able to judge what the effect of our actions will be...and this can only come from long long experience in life.
So many just do things without realising the consequences to themselves... and especially to others...

Esoterics does not place heavy emphasis on isolating oneself in a world which has so much to experience...many philosophies insist on a kind of sacrifice...like the guru who locks himself up so he is not tempted.

If you are tempted in life it just means you have not yet settled that desire yet...
This is a classic method used by the so called 'illuminati' to steer someone off course...and many live lives which others find undesirable but this does not mean that they are not learning anything.

If we could see...and we all will in time...the many mistakes we have made in all our many thousands of lives, we would realise why some react differently to others during temptation and other situations.

Life is about consciousness development and you cannot develop consciousness without experiencing all facets of life.

Some philosophies, like the yoga/Indian one teach that getting into higher dimensions is what 'enlightenment' is about, but anyone can train themselves to go OB and experience all kinds of amazing mystical things...but these people often know very little about how to unite in love with humankind...that does not make them advanced or spiritual.

The best way to grow and advance spiritually is to work on your attitude to others...this automatically refines the molecular makeup of the envelopes around us...the aura tells it all.

Life is about our interaction with others because the next kingdom or level from the human kingdom is the essential kingdom...and this is about collective unity.

Ray

[Guish]

Posted by Finefeather (here)

If I read the writings of those who claim 'enlightenment' they do not match reality as it is in these Causal levels...but that's just my opinion.

Who are you talking about, Ray?

I've always found OSHO strange. There was a certain darkness or arrogance in some of the things he has said over time. For example, saying people are stupid is one of the things I find strange. There's a certain deepness and calmness that comes with spirituality. Buddha had these traits and some zen masters came close as well.

[Guish]

Posted by Finefeather (here)

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
One way the Higher Mind is different from the ordinary mind is that it's extraordinarily wholistic. It sees a very big picture, and it does so instantly, in one sweep. It doesn't need to analyze things, or very little so, because it sees around corners.

I like this bit..."it sees around corners"
The reason for this is causal, because causal consciousness is largely about been able to judge what the effect of our actions will be...and this can only come from long long experience in life.
So many just do things without realising the consequences to themselves... and especially to others...

Esoterics does not place heavy emphasis on isolating oneself in a world which has so much to experience...many philosophies insist on a kind of sacrifice...like the guru who locks himself up so he is not tempted.

If you are tempted in life it just means you have not yet settled that desire yet...
This is a classic method used by the so called 'illuminati' to steer someone off course...and many live lives which others find undesirable but this does not mean that they are not learning anything.

If we could see...and we all will in time...the many mistakes we have made in all our many thousands of lives, we would realise why some react differently to others during temptation and other situations.

Life is about consciousness development and you cannot develop consciousness without experiencing all facets of life.

Some philosophies, like the yoga/Indian one teach that getting into higher dimensions is what 'enlightenment' is about, but anyone can train themselves to go OB and experience all kinds of amazing mystical things...but these people often know very little about how to unite in love with humankind...that does not make them advanced or spiritual.

The best way to grow and advance spiritually is to work on your attitude to others...this automatically refines the molecular makeup of the envelopes around us...the aura tells it all.

Life is about our interaction with others because the next kingdom or level from the human kingdom is the essential kingdom...and this is about collective unity.

Ray

Very important points, once again. The higher mind sees around the corners because the HM thinks about the higher cause. The little self/ego has no influence on the decision making and the decision taken becomes for a bigger cause. The way I've understood it, when one acts in a state of absolute bliss, totally selfless, one goes out of the cycle of action and reaction, meaning one no longer generates good Karma. One is well beyond the notion of reward. I noticed in myself that while helping others, there's no specific happiness or excitement. It just gets done with a feeling of emptiness and calmness.

For me compassion and selflessness were just effects of experiencing the void, like I usually call it. I fail to understand how someone can have an increase in consciousness and yet have no impact in the external world. I do remember reading about this though. In Zen, there's one category of adepts who just practise to have an empty mind, there's no bigger aim. Warriors used to practise it as a transformation exercise.

[greybeard]

Im thanking Ray for taking the time to post.
I cant agree or disagree as I have no knowledge of the subject of the esoteric.
There is no way that I can debate this topic.

I have no reservations on the teachings of several "Enlightened sages" though I agree that some persons claim enlightenment when they are having an "enlightened" experience--experiences come and go.
I could list several but they are recently posted on the "Enlightenment and related matters" thread.

Rays way seems some what complex for me.

Love Chris

[Finefeather]

Thank you for the chat. I feel I need to pause here. because where I am going seems to be somewhat off topic.

Will meet again on another thread.
Take care all

Love
Ray

[Guish]

Ray, it was an uplifting experience talking to you. See you soon neighbor.

[TraineeHuman]

One of the keys to eventually accessing the Illumined "Mind", and also to applying it more and more in one's life in the lowly world of matter, is intuition. Intuition is a type of "seeing" that's direct. Obviously, it's very difficult to master completely. For instance, it's clear that most channeling seems to be packed full of inaccuracies and falsehoods. No doubt some of these arise because when one tries to apply anything Higher in a lower world such as the physical world we live in, it gets corrupted or inhibited simply because of the limited nature of that world. Because everything that's Higher is out of its natural "habitat" here. There's also the fact that certain hostile forces in the astral will often seek to mess with the purity of the truth being channeled, even if the clairvoyant individual does have their higher consciousness developed to the point where they access major Truth.

But I would challenge every reader, as I've already done in this thread, to become as familiar as they possibly can with Intuition, and to keep at it at least until they begin to truly appreciate that intuition is a regular type of "seeing", only a higher kind than physical seeing. Such "seeing" is ever so delightful. That fact opens up a whole new world of how to live, on an inward level.

Then there's the distortion, for instance, of our customarily pretending that the One is just a separate individual. The One actually has no division, of course, and to It all (full) division is merely apparent, or superficial. As I've mentioned before, intuition is closely tied to knowing things from the inside, from practicing being at one with them in our consciousness. Intuition therefore involves consciously adopting a type of knowing that's much closer to how the One knows things. And what It knows is what the world really is.

[Guish]

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
One of the keys to eventually accessing the Illumined "Mind", and also to applying it more and more in one's life in the lowly world of matter, is intuition. Intuition is a type of "seeing" that's direct. Obviously, it's very difficult to master completely. For instance, it's clear that most channeling seems to be packed full of inaccuracies and falsehoods. No doubt some of these arise because when one tries to apply anything Higher in a lower world such as the physical world we live in, it gets corrupted or inhibited simply because of the limited nature of that world. Because everything that's Higher is out of its natural "habitat" here. There's also the fact that certain hostile forces in the astral will often seek to mess with the purity of the truth being channeled, even if the clairvoyant individual does have their higher consciousness developed to the point where they access major Truth.

But I would challenge every reader, as I've already done in this thread, to become as familiar as they possibly can with Intuition, and to keep at it at least until they begin to truly appreciate that intuition is a regular type of "seeing", only a higher kind than physical seeing. Such "seeing" is ever so delightful. That fact opens up a whole new world of how to live, on an inward level.

Then there's the distortion, for instance, of our customarily pretending that the One is just a separate individual. The One actually has no division, of course, and to It all (full) division is merely apparent, or superficial. As I've mentioned before, intuition is closely tied to knowing things from the inside, from practicing being at one with them in our consciousness. Intuition therefore involves consciously adopting a type of knowing that's much closer to how the One knows things. And what It knows is what the world really is.

Very true, TH. Calming the mind unlocks the hidden potential of our being. It's very tiring dealing with emotions and moods. Everything pushes us towards self inquiry and eventually spirituality unless we accept the suffering as a part of life.

[Joe Akulis]

"Life is about our interaction with others because the next kingdom or level from the human kingdom is the essential kingdom...and this is about collective unity."

Unity has been on my mind a lot. But not like the way it gets discussed here in this thread. Most of the time on threads like this, unity is a realization that people come to the higher they progress in their level of experience. You know, the "One" stuff. "It's all one." "We are all one." "You're only hurting yourself because we are all one." "You become one with everything."

The type of unity that has been on my mind a lot lately might be called "unity in reverse" if you compare it to the other kind of unity by revelation. Instead of realizing, or knowing that we are all one, I'm really interested in the idea that as we progress, we are going to be drawn toward an increasing level of unity with each other.

I've read some cool stories of people in the astral realms who learn how to "merge" themselves. It's like a total sharing of each other. You learn everything that person knows and they do the same with you. Sorta like you both become each other in one body.

I think as we get closer to becoming what we can be, and start tapping some of these cool abilities, like telepathy, we are going to start feeling that pull towards each other more and more. At first there will only be a very select few that we would feel comfortable doing something like this with, and it's quite possible that they will all be part of the soul group that comprises our Higher Mind to begin with, but eventually I think that will continue to build until, who knows, maybe the majority of the people on planet Earth right now will decide to combine into one whole. This whole possibility blows me away, but for some reason, right now, I love thinking about it.

Anyone else know what I mean?

[AwakeInADream]

Hi all I've been away, but it strikes me just how dreamlike different levels of physicality can seem. I've been on a journey, much like the shamans journey, but this one was in the mundane and earthly structure of the society that first gripped me. I lost my way, but kept myself within it. leaving my body seemed 'proof enough' back then, so I ventured back into the world. I was covered in soil. This subjective realm that most people agree upon, of hard cement and coke cans, wavers for me now. I want again to meet my true friend. The man in white. But he leaves me to decide. I must make a choice.

I'm so glad to see your thread still running TraineeHuman I missed you!

[TraineeHuman]

Happiness -- or freedom from unhappiness -- actually comes from and through the Higher Mind, the soul -- though even higher parts of ourselves, namely the Superconsciousness or even the Divine consciousness, will certainly intensify happiness, make it even stronger, whenever we enter them strongly enough.

On the other hand, our social conditioning insists that happiness consists of a great marriage or partnership, great family and children, great friends, a great career, very good health, great hobbies, and maybe a great home and great possessions or money or free time. Unfortunately the truth is, these do not in themselves bring freedom from unhappiness. It's impossible for them ever to do so. Once one has achieved such freedom, these will certainly enrich the happiness that's there, and should certainly be cultivated. But these are largely the things that our biological self, our body-consciousness, yearns for. Unfortunately it doesn't have the capacity to ever be fully satisfied, because it's a less evolved consciousness than our soul.

That leaves questions such as what to do with attachment, particularly in romantic or family relationships. The truth is, attachment slowly destroys (genuine) love. However, our biological self easily develops attachment, particularly when our soul feels love for another person. This attachment develops because the ego can control the biological self but it has no control over our Higher Mind. Attachment to one's mother is something that the body-consciousness needs for the first four years or so of life. But the ego then seeks to in effect highjack attachment, because the ego would love to know genuine love but attachment is the closest imitation it can get.

Should we then be ruthless and cut off all attachments whenever we notice any? Obviously not. No-one lives that way, except maybe some yogis or monks or nuns. How, then, do we stop attachment from destroying the genuine love that's present to some degree at least at the beginning of any important romantic relationship? I'm interested in others' thoughts and experiences. I'll share mine in another post soon.

One thing to clarify now, though, is that in addition to the "path" of meditation there is the "path" of love. In our society everyone follows that path to some degree, and most women do so extensively for much of their lives. The ultimate on that journey is to learn to freely access Love per se, the pure, delicious love of existence itself. That is essentially the same thing as what I have been calling the bliss that comes with having the Higher Mind fully present. That's what bliss feels like -- like ecstatic love. Christians say that "God is love" (and imply that love is God). Well, to the body-consciousness the Higher Mind, the soul, is "God". Even though all the Divine worlds are at a considerably higher level.

[Guish]

Thanks TH. Body consciousness pollutes relationships in many ways. One creates expectations which are not usually met and a sense of dissatisfaction is felt. In simple terms, one can never be happy with something impermanent. The only thing permanent is the soul. Concerning love, you can just give without expecting in return and the love never fades as the soul is unchanged. When I met my wife, I wasn't expecting anything at the time. Things just clicked. However, I could have married someone else as all people are beautiful. But, I know that people more entangled in the materialistic world will not be attracted by someone like me. Hence, everyone has the potential to be a Buddha or a Ravana. You choose what you want to be.