The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

[animovado]

Hello TH,
i like to go back to the topic I had a question about in Post #2732.

For that matter I like to quote some of your words that I found on the current (edit: previous) page of this thread:

1. As far as I know apparently everyone seems to agree that the physical world is a world that's limited compared to other types of worlds -- that what life is about "down here" is living with and learning to adjust to or overcome or transform our limitations and those of living in this type of world.#2733

2. But secondly, it seems to me that Source would have insisted on creating a type of world limited enough for that Hypothesis not to apply, because such a thing was quite possible.#2733

3. Well, firstly the majority of physicists are of the opinion that the evidence suggests it doesn't apply in the physical world.#2733

4. […] when quantum physics made it clear that if the physical world was made of objects, these are very strange objects indeed. For instance, every electron only has more or less probable locations, and can be literally anywhere in the entire universe, at any time.[…]#2738

How can these statements properly fit together? So if we’re capable of overcoming or transforming limitations, they seem not to be carved in stone (1.). So they’re not so limited instead and maybe a part of the screenplay of a not so little „trickster" (2.)? Are those scientists listening to themselves, because the strange behavior of particles doesn’t stop at "more or less probable locations", it’s becoming even stranger when a particle can be at two locations at the same time (3., 4.)?

[TraineeHuman]

All the worlds higher than the physical world have fewer limitations, fewer natural laws. That makes many things freer, even in astral levels, compared to what happens in the physical world. There no doubt probably are other physical worlds than this one, in the sense that some of the laws of physics in them may be quite different from ours, animovado. But no-one seems to have ever managed to "jump" out of this physical world into one with very different laws, retaining their physical body. Regardless of how much one may change one's point of view, such a change never seems to create a second version of the physical planet Earth, as far as I know. Of course I could be wrong, but where is the evidence?

And yes, animovado, we certainly do transcend or put aside at least some of our limitations while we're living in the physical world. But we only manage to do this by bringing down, or "pulling in", forces or energies etc that come from higher worlds, mostly -- though I guess we may also e.g. lose physical weight purely through the right physical diet etc.

[greybeard]

Its all different levels (of energy)
Hence the paradoxes.
What applies to one realm does not necessarily apply to others.

Chris

[animovado]

There are not so much „natural laws“ than you might think. The limitations our plane seems to offer are of other origin. You can compare this to the administrative regulations that should be based on the laws, but often deviate in a silly manner and contradict common sense. Our way of interpretation is limited by ourselves as a society and individually. That‘s okay, but no one is bound to that limited interpretatin in general.
How can you „pull in“ forces from one plane into the other, when they don‘t comply with the laws of the other and are contradictory?
What is the impetus for our moment of inertia - to which interpretation do you gravitate?
Well, and evidence,...do you believe in evidence? Quantum physics seems to deliver an example for not believable experimental results, because it‘s findings are not adopted by other scientific disciplines. But maybe I‘m not up to date.

[TraineeHuman]

Early in this thread I've said various things about descension (or truly bringing Heaven down to Earth as the more advanced stage of spiritual development). I'd like to give some more specific details here, intended for those readers who’ve had or are having direct experiences of this. My comments will cover some details of where the highly misunderstood topic of kundalini descension fits in.

At least, this information is all based on my own experience and observations of certain other individuals I have known. (In the traditional terminology, ascension occurs individually only, and culminates in an experience of one of the Divine worlds --- where one experiences all things as being one, and that oneself is God or the Universe, and so on). Following this one becomes able to begin to enter the stages of descension.)

Descension does have stages, though once a stage has been gone through there will typically be further "trickle-on" of completing that stage fully, for years after. The later stages, as I understand them (assuming the individual hasn't for e4xample been trapped in lower astral levels as a result of drug use) are: the mental (or conceptual or symbolic), the emotional, the physical (which, as I'll try to explain in detail, is the kundalini stage), and the subconscious or shadow stage . It's necessary to go through these stages in that order (over years or lifetimes).

The mental stage is when one has a mental concept, or very vivid memories, of having experiences of one of the Divine worlds. (If you haven't experienced that vivid experience and the memory of it yet, then , as I understand it, I'm afraid you're still at a prior stage of descension, or at a stage of individual ascension prior to when descension begins.) Unfortunately, in a discussion forum like this we are stuck mostly in a mental world generally, like it or not. But the truth is, reality is not made out of ideas or concepts (or words, or pictures). Only mental reality is. (Many of the most leading nineteenth and twentieth century philosophers proved, by pure reason, that this is the case.)

The next stage of descension, the emotional one, is a very, very long journey indeed. I believe it took me the equivalent of a full-time person-decade to get through (hopefully) most of it. One could call it the psychotherapeutic or the "facing and allowing the truth" stage. As far as I understand, one only completes this when one becomes able to bring down bliss (or what is also known as “love”), or profound joy, into most situations, and to use such bliss to negate (most of) the sting of emotionally painful things. That’s bringing Nirvana down into the emotional level. Before you complete that, you’ll cop endless suffering and have to face it – unless you can find the right kind of awareness to overcome the suffering, though perhaps no-one does until near the end of this stage.

The next stage is the physical. As far as I know, this is, or culminates in, the kundalini stage (in the sense that it’s the stage where one has a continuous kundalini experience that typically keeps going day and night for at least several years). I need to clarify a whole lot of gigantic common misunderstandings regarding the workings of kundalini energy. There are largely two varieties of kundalini experience (as should also be clear , I believe,from the writings of various individuals such as Irina Tweedie). One variety is what I’ll call a “baby kundalini experience”. This typically lasts somewhere between one and twenty or so minutes. (It also includes the shaktipat experience.) I used to have an extraordinary spiritual teacher who was a master of kundalini yoga, in addition to being extraordinarily clairvoyant. In her classes, she was very good at spotting when someone was ready to have a baby kundalini activation. I would notice that when this occurred, a pale white ball, the size of a tennis ball or golf ball, would appear (on the astral level) in the energy field of the individual. It would linger below their feet and then at their feet or legs usually for some minutes. (I think this is because most individuals, including many meditators, aren’t connected with the energy flow that comes from the ground. To remedy this, they should meditate with their legs raised to the level of their solar plexus or higher.) Yhen the white ball would enter the physical body at the base of the spine, and usually begin to move much more quickly, up the spine. Quite often, though, it would get stuck at some chakra point or other. I found that I already had the developed the psychic skills to clear away the stuck energy at such a point while I remained at a distance. But I soon decided it was better to allow the individual to clear away their stuck energies themselves (probably subconsciously). I told my teacher I had been doing this in her classes, but she was concerned that I might not be able to avoid taking in some of the energies of the individual and, so to speak, “vacuuming” them into my own energy field. However, it so happened I already had a sufficient mastery of the relevant skills to easily avoid doing that altogether. But I consider that is a good example of the kind of skills of mastery over energy that one may need to develop during the “psychotherapy” or emotional stage. I was also certain that I have the skills to move the white ball of kundalini energy up all the way from below the feet to above the head without needing to ever touch the individual, on the forehead or anywhere else –- as long as I’m physically close by, i.e. in the same room.

The hard part, in my experience, is getting the white ball to appear in the first place. I have managed to do that on my own with a few individuals, whom I then only slightly assisted, or didn’t assist at all, as they moved the ball up their body to its destination at the oversoul area. For the ball to appear (below the individual’s feet), the individual needs to be undergoing some process of major psychotherapeutic change at that time. In one case, the individual was grieving over the loss of her father a few days before, a father she had been especially close to. Under those circumstances it wasn’t so difficult for me to use some professional counselling skills (with empathy) to initiate a sufficiently intense psychological healing to bring the white ball out. (Very well-known studies have proved, incidentally, that counselling or psychotherapy doesn’t result in any change for the better at all, in 70% of professional counselling or psychotherapy sessions. But sometimes, on the other hand, the client is very ready and willing at that particular time.)

That’s the baby kundalini experience. My teacher who was a kundalini master didn’t mention any other kind, not until when she noticed that I had been having a continuous kundalini experience for two weeks (which she was clairvoyant enough to know without my saying anything). But I need to point out here that in nineteenth century India, anyone exhibiting a baby kundalini experience would immediately be made a guru for the rest of his life. This meant that all his physical needs would from then on be taken care of and provided for, for free. Plus, as a guru, he would hold a position of great prestige in the local community. Clearly there was a huge incentive for such an individual to exaggerate and embellish what was going on during his baby kundalini experience -- and to imply that no more major and integrated form of kundalini experience existed. I’m not denying, though, that any baby kundalini experience will usually be (or include) one of the top 15 or 20 psychological breakthrough experiences in the individual’s lifetime.

The other type of kundalini experience is what we could call the marathon kundalini experience. This is incomparably vaster and broader in its transformative effects. As I’ve mentioned, it seems to usually last continuously for many months or, indeed, for a number of years. In early 2001, my master teacher told me I had been going through the beginning stage of such an experience continuously for the previous two weeks. It was true that I had gone through a number of somewhat major psychological breakthroughs all at the same time. But after two weeks I was feeling that these were kind of over, at least at a conscious level. I had however noticed I definitely seemed to be feeling the mid-summer heat more strongly than normal, and an unusually strong inner calmness. Beyond that, what I primarily experienced, on the surface at least, was a physical overheating of my entire body that went on non-stop day and night for around two years. For those two years and sometimes afterwards, I wasn’t able to wear any pyjamas at night or to use even a single blanket on my bed at night.

My teacher had withdrawn from contact with any of her students for what I think turned out to be a year and a half, so I was on my own. Without noticing it at first, I seemed to become very withdrawn for the first six months of that two year period. I was working as a contractor, but fortunately wasn’t offered a contract during the first eight months of this period. Ultimately, though, it seems one only needs to learn to calmly trust that the higher benevolent forces or energies working their way through one become stronger, usually, than any difficulties or egoic resistance or hostile forces.

In retrospect, when I reflect on what I know or have heard about others’ marathon k. experiences, it seems to me that, in many if not most cases, their marathon experience was entered into prematurely in some respects. That seems to have been the case with quite a few of my past spiritual teachers. None of my other teachers talked about the marathon experience, but I’ve deduced that a number of them certainly must have experienced it.

In my next post I’ll look at three ways in which I believe the marathon experience can be entered prematurely.

[TraineeHuman]

Irina Tweedie is one example of someone who seems to have undergone the marathon experience, and she wrote about it in her book about her experiences mostly with a master from the Naqshbandi sect, the advanced sect, of Sufism. (If the book’s no longer available, I know there are at several videos. My theory, at present anyway, is that most individuals who undergo the marathon experience do so prematurely, and I'll try to briefly indicate some possible reasons why. During the marathon experience, it seems that the life-energy shows itself full on, in what we can call a universal manner. Something gigantic. One of the things Irina experienced during (and maybe before) the marathon experience was that she suddenly and then for a long period became overwhelmed by what was now an abnormally strong sexual drive. It seems to me that that is one of the three most common symptoms of going into the marathon experience prematurely.

All sexual energy is actually life-force energy -- but not vice-versa, in spite of Freud's theories, which at any rate have been proved largely invalid in this respect in the psychological literature. If an individual has, for example, known extensive repression of, or unreasonable overindulgence in, their sexual drive for a considerable part of their past, they will wrongly interpret the universal kundalini energy as very intense, if not compulsive, sexual energy. But life-energy in itself, taken in a balanced way, is something beautiful and in certain ways innocent -- in spite of its ability to sometimes materialize itself as hurricanes or volcanoes and so on. If an individual has major unresolved issues or a lack of –appropriate balance relating to sexuality, they will no doubt project these onto the “pure” universal k. energy.

The descension into the physical involves a type of universalization of one’s experience of the physical world. Subtly and slowly, one develops a sense that whatever one truly is is somehow universal, even though firmly rooted in, or inhabiting, the world of physicality. That development seems to happen so gradually that in some ways one doesn’t notice it. But one does at some point notice a great sense of inner freedom and ability to take vast forces into oneself.

As far as I know, an equally common symptom of premature marathon k. experience is the acquisition of an obsession with being greedy about money. Similarly, another one is an obsession with being greedy for power over people’s lives. The universal character of how the kundalini energy is now experienced can lead to the individual having a sense that there are no limits to how far they can go. Of course, all these three types of symptoms have been seen in various leaders of spiritual communities or sects. I guess that money often translates into physical goods or into things like food or shelter, so the greed about money connects with coming to terms with the physical world. It’s not clear to me why the greed for power and influence seems to be so connected with physicality, but somehow it seems it just is.

When the descension into the physical is more or less complete (if, indeed, it ever is), my understanding is that one will continually be experiencing the physical world as being, at core, a place that’s free of unhappiness. This doesn’t mean that stop experiencing such things as physical pain, or practical problems of various kinds. (But we don’t allow pain to turn into suffering.)

There will be other areas of life in the physical world that even some years of continuous marathon experience will not have healed. As far as I know, what this means is that one will go on having baby k. experiences every now and then, each time healing or resolving such other areas to some degree. The marathon experience seems able to liberate you in most of the kinds of situations you encounter regularly in your normal life. But there are always new horizons where you will still be in need of healing. Let me add that I consider the very notion of achieving “perfection” is a myth. “Perfection” is always relative.

Finally, a quote from Irina: “There is nothing but Nothingness.. . Nothingness because the little self (the ego) has to go. One has to become nothing. Nothingness, because the higher states of consciousness represent nothingness to the mind, for it cannot reach there. It is completely beyond the range of perception. Complete comprehension on the level of the mind is not possible, so one is faced with nothingness.”

[samildamach]

Hi trainee
So would you say a baby kundalini experience is a pre curser to descention,or something altogether different?

[TraineeHuman]

A baby kundalini experience is always still a significant breakthrough. If the individual having it has, in addition, also experienced one of the Divine worlds, then he or she may indeed be moved to "surrender" significantly to the higher forces. And no doubt the "baby "experience will have taken apart part of the ego's resistance to this.

The important question will be, how long will the individual successfully remain extremely attentive and silently watch all the movements of their own mind like a hawk? There are hostile forces, within and without, that need to be overcome. Also, the individual needs to have developed sufficient inner calmness or detachment, that they can very quickly see where an idea or impulse inside them is coming from. Some will be coming from a higher part of themselves, but some will be from forces, external or inner, that are hostile to one's further progress.

On the positive side, in addition to constantly using profound attentiveness, it helps if , eventually, one can retain a sense of both profound joy and the "nothingness" of great inner peace. At least one should learn to begin to experience these during one's daily meditation, and then they should eventually come to trickle through into all of one's daily life, despite all the thorns that one runs into there. In the meantime, on the way to getting there, I never promised you a rose garden (well, not all the time), as the saying goes.

[wegge]

Hey there TraineeHuman,

Can you recommend other books besides Irina's that tackle parts of the Kundalini phenomenon, as holistically as you seem to understand it?

best
Christoph

[TraineeHuman]

Hi, Christoph. When I was in my adolescence I was experiencing the Divine worlds regularly, without having read anything about that at all. Practically all I "read" was the book of Nature, very intensively, in some sometimes rather weird sense. It did take certain very deliberate "practices" of my own creation but not original, such as spending hours on the weekends being disengaged from everything I did during the week, plus developing powerful concentration and then attention and the ability to truly go within,. Not to mention also being powerfully disengaged from any entertainment or anyone else's company, usually. It helped greatly that in my first five years I had had a mother who was quite exceptionally loving, so that in some ways on an inner level I felt extraordinarily empowered and validated and lovable. Ever since, I've regarded true spirituality as something where experience has to always come first and then any reading or discussion about it needs to be related mostly just to looking at what you've already experienced. Period. Only then do the philosophical and psychological and poetic concepts help one to see more clearly that -- ah, hah! -- "this" is what I've really been experiencing. Then they can be genuinely empowering instead of misleading, because they'll direct your attention more fully into higher, more positive territory. The alternative seems to me disastrous, or, at least, mostly ineffective.

When I started this thread I'm sorry to say I was amazed and horrified to find that some readers seemed to believe that theoretical concepts or knowledge regarding some aspect of spirituality was in some way or sometimes a substitute for direct experience. There's no easy way, no royal road, no "sly person's path" in that sense. The via negativa is the only true way, I'm afraid.

Sorry, but I don't know of any other authors than Irina Tweedie who have tried to explain in considerable detail what (as I would describe it) premature experiences of the marathon or true kundalini experience are like, if one goes into it prematurely -- which she obviously did, and many spiritual teachers or masters obviously did or do also. Perhaps most of what I learnt about true kundalini experience I learnt through having extensive non-verbal mastery of certain skills to do with handling and "reading" pure energy, and through extensive nonverbal "reading" of what was going on inside someone who was indeed a genuine kundalini master whom I saw often about once a month for a few hours, over about ten years.

[greybeard]

I had a spontaneous Kundalini awkening.
Not any pre knowledge that there was such a thing or what it was.
Anyway it led to going to the ashram of Dr Goels--known as Guruji and spending some time there.
All kinds of experiences happened there and afterwards.

Taken from the link below.
Dr. B. S. Goel was a very rare individual. His experience of awakening was quite dramatic. He and his friends thought he was "losing his mind" during this long process.


Dr. B. S. Goel has written several books, the most famous "Third Eye and Kundalini - An Experiential Account of a Journey From Dust to Divinity."
These books now selling for £100s of pounds, secondhand --not that that really means anything

Worth a read.

This link no longer works but the one below
Gives a different book by him

http://www.ordinaryenlightenment.com/goel.htm

The Third Eye and Kundalini

https://archive.org/details/ThirdEye...niKRI4B.S.Goel

[TraineeHuman]

I forgot earlier to include some suggestions about avoiding certain medical issues that occur as a result of undergoing the more genuine, or "marathon", form of kundalini experience. I do remember that four individuals in past years (at least one of them in the earlier version of this Forum, before 2010) said they experienced it, like myself, continuously non-stop day and night for at least some months if not years.

Firstly, through the years ever since the experience, my kidneys' health (my creatine level) has been close to borderline, or sometimes worse, whenever I have had a blood test. Somehow I've managed to always quickly recover whenever it's fallen below the acceptable level. Then again, the kidneys are usually extremely resilient in most people. As I'm vegetarian but meat is the most common source of creatine, I have some buckwheat grains with breakfast every morning, which seems to work for me. Apparently, in many alternative health systems excessive "fire" in the body weakens the kidneys. (I don't believe that corresponds to the fire element in astrology, by the way. I think here "fire" means something like life-force energy or some kind of "spiritual" energy manifesting in the physical. )

Secondly, the direction of flow of physical energy through my neurones, at least those in my chest, got permanently reversed. These days it flows vertically up instead of down. The standard way that cardiologists and doctors monitor the heart's current functioning is with an ECG (electrocardiogram) test (or by the patient wearing a Holter monitor). On this, it seems that "normal" for me --for my chest, at least -- is to have the "normal" direction reversed. As far as I know, there are no bad consequences from this, physically or psychologically. Indeed, we talk of feeling "uplifted", and it seems to me that this direction of flow does help one to feel positive, for some reason or other.

While the "marathon" kundalini experience is going on, you always need to guard against dehydration of the brain. To do this, at all times you need to have a water bottle handy with water plus a little sea salt and maybe a touch of fruit juice (or traditionally, in the Himalayas, some nettle tea). Otherwise there's the risk of developing epilepsy, because the kundalini energy also generates plenty of extra physical heat in the body, and that heat keeps getting moved towards the brain. I suspect that various famous individuals who were epileptics became that way because of the dehydration of their brain in this manner. My experience was that I didn't normally need to drink from my water bottle during the night, though I'd keep it handy by my bed at night and on occasion I'd take a sip during the night too.

Finally, I don't believe that even the "marathon" kundalini experience is in itself enough to actually release or truly begin the process of more rapidly freeing yourself from various forms of unhappiness permanently. As far as I can tell, what one needs at this point is receiving "transmission" from an individual who has already gone through such an experience themselves. Such "receiving" has nothing to do with having one's forehead touched etc. It's something that I believe takes hours (perhaps spread over time), and you have to yourself truly be a master of energy and of energy flows. By "energy" here I don't mean anything physical or emotional or mental (or electromagnetic) -- though I consider it does have significant mastery over the physical, emotional and mental realms. It's "energy" at a higher (or deeper) "level" of reality than any of that, and something that takes literally person-years of totally nonverbal work to master, in addition to one's having extensive prior experience of Divine worlds.

[Guish]

I have been away for a long time and it seems that we are still discussing Kundalini here. Great to see you again, TH.

[Constance]

Posted by Guish (here)
I have been away for a long time and it seems that we are still discussing Kundalini here. Great to see you again, TH.

Welcome back Guish

[petra]

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
When I started this thread I'm sorry to say I was amazed and horrified to find that some readers seemed to believe that theoretical concepts or knowledge regarding some aspect of spirituality was in some way or sometimes a substitute for direct experience. There's no easy way, no royal road, no "sly person's path" in that sense. The via negativa is the only true way, I'm afraid.

Some of us are afraid too.... namely me
I've seen colored blobs with my eyes closed, but not on purpose. When the blobs began to have corners, and one time it looked like a word, I got frightened. Due to that one scary fact, I doubt I'll ever be trying meditation

I'm agreeing that there's no substitute for direct experience... I'd just like to point out that not all of us want to see things with our eyes closed

[Valerie Villars]

Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
Early in this thread I've said various things about descension (or truly bringing Heaven down to Earth as the more advanced stage of spiritual development). I'd like to give some more specific details here, intended for those readers who’ve had or are having direct experiences of this. My comments will cover some details of where the highly misunderstood topic of kundalini descension fits in.

At least, this information is all based on my own experience and observations of certain other individuals I have known. (In the traditional terminology, ascension occurs individually only, and culminates in an experience of one of the Divine worlds --- where one experiences all things as being one, and that oneself is God or the Universe, and so on). Following this one becomes able to begin to enter the stages of descension.)

Descension does have stages, though once a stage has been gone through there will typically be further "trickle-on" of completing that stage fully, for years after. The later stages, as I understand them (assuming the individual hasn't for e4xample been trapped in lower astral levels as a result of drug use) are: the mental (or conceptual or symbolic), the emotional, the physical (which, as I'll try to explain in detail, is the kundalini stage), and the subconscious or shadow stage . It's necessary to go through these stages in that order (over years or lifetimes).

The mental stage is when one has a mental concept, or very vivid memories, of having experiences of one of the Divine worlds. (If you haven't experienced that vivid experience and the memory of it yet, then , as I understand it, I'm afraid you're still at a prior stage of descension, or at a stage of individual ascension prior to when descension begins.) Unfortunately, in a discussion forum like this we are stuck mostly in a mental world generally, like it or not. But the truth is, reality is not made out of ideas or concepts (or words, or pictures). Only mental reality is. (Many of the most leading nineteenth and twentieth century philosophers proved, by pure reason, that this is the case.)

The next stage of descension, the emotional one, is a very, very long journey indeed. I believe it took me the equivalent of a full-time person-decade to get through (hopefully) most of it. One could call it the psychotherapeutic or the "facing and allowing the truth" stage. As far as I understand, one only completes this when one becomes able to bring down bliss (or what is also known as “love”), or profound joy, into most situations, and to use such bliss to negate (most of) the sting of emotionally painful things. That’s bringing Nirvana down into the emotional level. Before you complete that, you’ll cop endless suffering and have to face it – unless you can find the right kind of awareness to overcome the suffering, though perhaps no-one does until near the end of this stage.

The next stage is the physical. As far as I know, this is, or culminates in, the kundalini stage (in the sense that it’s the stage where one has a continuous kundalini experience that typically keeps going day and night for at least several years). I need to clarify a whole lot of gigantic common misunderstandings regarding the workings of kundalini energy. There are largely two varieties of kundalini experience (as should also be clear , I believe,from the writings of various individuals such as Irina Tweedie). One variety is what I’ll call a “baby kundalini experience”. This typically lasts somewhere between one and twenty or so minutes. (It also includes the shaktipat experience.) I used to have an extraordinary spiritual teacher who was a master of kundalini yoga, in addition to being extraordinarily clairvoyant. In her classes, she was very good at spotting when someone was ready to have a baby kundalini activation. I would notice that when this occurred, a pale white ball, the size of a tennis ball or golf ball, would appear (on the astral level) in the energy field of the individual. It would linger below their feet and then at their feet or legs usually for some minutes. (I think this is because most individuals, including many meditators, aren’t connected with the energy flow that comes from the ground. To remedy this, they should meditate with their legs raised to the level of their solar plexus or higher.) Yhen the white ball would enter the physical body at the base of the spine, and usually begin to move much more quickly, up the spine. Quite often, though, it would get stuck at some chakra point or other. I found that I already had the developed the psychic skills to clear away the stuck energy at such a point while I remained at a distance. But I soon decided it was better to allow the individual to clear away their stuck energies themselves (probably subconsciously). I told my teacher I had been doing this in her classes, but she was concerned that I might not be able to avoid taking in some of the energies of the individual and, so to speak, “vacuuming” them into my own energy field. However, it so happened I already had a sufficient mastery of the relevant skills to easily avoid doing that altogether. But I consider that is a good example of the kind of skills of mastery over energy that one may need to develop during the “psychotherapy” or emotional stage. I was also certain that I have the skills to move the white ball of kundalini energy up all the way from below the feet to above the head without needing to ever touch the individual, on the forehead or anywhere else –- as long as I’m physically close by, i.e. in the same room.

The hard part, in my experience, is getting the white ball to appear in the first place. I have managed to do that on my own with a few individuals, whom I then only slightly assisted, or didn’t assist at all, as they moved the ball up their body to its destination at the oversoul area. For the ball to appear (below the individual’s feet), the individual needs to be undergoing some process of major psychotherapeutic change at that time. In one case, the individual was grieving over the loss of her father a few days before, a father she had been especially close to. Under those circumstances it wasn’t so difficult for me to use some professional counselling skills (with empathy) to initiate a sufficiently intense psychological healing to bring the white ball out. (Very well-known studies have proved, incidentally, that counselling or psychotherapy doesn’t result in any change for the better at all, in 70% of professional counselling or psychotherapy sessions. But sometimes, on the other hand, the client is very ready and willing at that particular time.)

That’s the baby kundalini experience. My teacher who was a kundalini master didn’t mention any other kind, not until when she noticed that I had been having a continuous kundalini experience for two weeks (which she was clairvoyant enough to know without my saying anything). But I need to point out here that in nineteenth century India, anyone exhibiting a baby kundalini experience would immediately be made a guru for the rest of his life. This meant that all his physical needs would from then on be taken care of and provided for, for free. Plus, as a guru, he would hold a position of great prestige in the local community. Clearly there was a huge incentive for such an individual to exaggerate and embellish what was going on during his baby kundalini experience -- and to imply that no more major and integrated form of kundalini experience existed. I’m not denying, though, that any baby kundalini experience will usually be (or include) one of the top 15 or 20 psychological breakthrough experiences in the individual’s lifetime.

The other type of kundalini experience is what we could call the marathon kundalini experience. This is incomparably vaster and broader in its transformative effects. As I’ve mentioned, it seems to usually last continuously for many months or, indeed, for a number of years. In early 2001, my master teacher told me I had been going through the beginning stage of such an experience continuously for the previous two weeks. It was true that I had gone through a number of somewhat major psychological breakthroughs all at the same time. But after two weeks I was feeling that these were kind of over, at least at a conscious level. I had however noticed I definitely seemed to be feeling the mid-summer heat more strongly than normal, and an unusually strong inner calmness. Beyond that, what I primarily experienced, on the surface at least, was a physical overheating of my entire body that went on non-stop day and night for around two years. For those two years and sometimes afterwards, I wasn’t able to wear any pyjamas at night or to use even a single blanket on my bed at night.

My teacher had withdrawn from contact with any of her students for what I think turned out to be a year and a half, so I was on my own. Without noticing it at first, I seemed to become very withdrawn for the first six months of that two year period. I was working as a contractor, but fortunately wasn’t offered a contract during the first eight months of this period. Ultimately, though, it seems one only needs to learn to calmly trust that the higher benevolent forces or energies working their way through one become stronger, usually, than any difficulties or egoic resistance or hostile forces.

In retrospect, when I reflect on what I know or have heard about others’ marathon k. experiences, it seems to me that, in many if not most cases, their marathon experience was entered into prematurely in some respects. That seems to have been the case with quite a few of my past spiritual teachers. None of my other teachers talked about the marathon experience, but I’ve deduced that a number of them certainly must have experienced it.

In my next post I’ll look at three ways in which I believe the marathon experience can be entered prematurely.

Trainee, wherever you are, thank you. I skimmed some of the thread, read parts and then got to the above post. Thanks again.

[TraineeHuman]

Hi Petra,

Meditation (at least when done properly) is, as I understand it, a going into one's subconscious and experiencing what's actually there, but doing so in a "neutral" and lightly accepting fashion, as in just observing it, and practising calmly not resisting it. (Then beyond that, the underlying background is just pure joy, but for years more "fog" will come in and need to be observed before it goes away too.) So, if you were seeing colored dots, they represent something that's present in your subconscious now and perhaps until you get rid of it. Perhaps the very best way to get rid of it is through meditation -- just kind of persevering with the fact that the dots are present, but learning to not mind their presence. That should certainly lead to their going away, eventually at any rate.

In my experience, colored dots have usually meant helpful beings from an astral level. But whatever they are, I would prefer to use meditation to get rid of their intrusion, even if it's intended to be benevolent. That way, they'll go but they'll "discharge" whatever helpful message they wanted to deliver, through a "download" or through one of your dreams.

If you don't want to use meditation to practise facing what's in your subconscious, we still all need to do so by some means or other. Learning through life-experiences alone is too slow, it seems to me. You felt fear regarding the colored dots, so the closer you can get to seeing and experiencing what the root of that fear is, the sooner it can dissolve away rather than hide in your subconscious somewhere.

[kfm27917]

The Wanderling
This used to be a series of stories related to Zen Buddhism and personal growth, united by a strange system of weblinks on a site called Angelfire. Somehow this site died.
However today I found an other entry point at http://the-wanderling.com
I quote from his website

One more tidbit is the domain structure. The Wanderling has undertaken to create his project in free website places, assembling a myriad of apparently different sites, but all interwoven. As the free website places fold and merge and change their rules, he shifts accordingly, thus a migration happens on this level as well. [Correction 2006: The Wanderling informs me that some of his material is now hosted on paid servers. And Update 2009: The Wanderling has scratched my back in return in his blog (June 14, 2009 entry) at MySpace.]

[kfm27917]

This will be a rather dense post, because I'm adapting it from some notes I wrote last night when I was noodling on the question of how to make sense of paranormal and postmortem phenomena. The idea requires more elaboration than I can give it here. But at least this is a start.

The basic idea is that our four-dimensional reality (three dimensions of space and one dimension of time) exists on a continuum, with higher dimensional realities above our own. For simplicity, I'll refer collectively to these higher-dimensional planes as five-dimensional or 5D reality, although there could be more dimensions than that.

The famous book Flatland by Edwin Abbott imagines a two-dimensional world existing on the surface of a sheet of paper. The narrator, a Flatlander, has an epiphany in which he experiences a higher, three-dimensional world from which he can look down on the paper from above. This episode of "cosmic consciousness" alters his worldview irrevocably.

Note that the two-dimensional world of Flatland is grounded in the three-dimensional world (known as Spaceland in the book). The ground of being, in other words, has more dimensions than the ordinary world. This observation points up a defect in the model of a holographic reality. A hologram is a three-dimensional image projected out of a two-dimensional plate. In that case, the ground of being is lower-dimensional than the observed reality. But in the Flatland model, the ground of being is higher-dimensional than our ordinary reality. I believe this is probably more correct.

In this case, to speak of going higher in terms of dimensions is also to speak of going deeper in terms of structure. This is not as paradoxical as it may seem. We already use the terms high and deep interchangeably to refer to advanced thinking: a high-minded deep thinker, or elevated, profound thought. So there's no necessary contradiction in saying that as we go higher, we also go deeper. It's a matter of perspective.

Now we have to ask in what way five-dimensional entities or realities or inputs would be experienced in our four-dimensional world. Again, an analogy with the world of Flatland is helpful. Imagine a pencil, a three-dimensional object. If it were to intrude into a purely two-dimensional world (Flatland), it would be perceived only as a slice. It might be a small dot (a slice of the graphite tip), or a somewhat larger circle (a slice of the wooden point), or a still larger circle (a slice of the widest part of the pencil). Or, if the slice were made at an angle, then it might be an oval. If the pencil were sliced lengthwise down the middle, it would be a silhouette of the pencil. But the matter how it is sliced, the slice itself will always be a two-dimensional object, and someone unfamiliar with the three-dimensional world will be unable to visualize the complete three-dimensional pencil, much less imagine its origins or its purpose.

There's one more point to make. Each higher level of reality corresponds to a higher level of consciousness. A four-dimensional reality is perceived by a four-dimensional mind - a mind limited by the architecture of a four-dimensional brain and nervous system. A five-dimensional reality is perceived by a five-dimensional consciousness, which has no such limitations. Five-dimensional entities intruding into four-dimensional space are perceived in a distorted or altered form not only because of the restrictions of the 4D environment but also because of the limitations of the 4D mind. Indeed, we could say that there is no distinction between environment and mind. The 5D object exists as a 4D perception in our reality because 1) that is the only way it can exist here and because 2) that is the only way it can be perceived by us. And in fact, #1 and #2 are two ways of saying the same thing. To be is to be perceived.

The 4D mind is essentially what we think of as the ego, while the 5D mind is what we think of as the higher self or the subliminal self. The ego, in other words, is a slice of a much larger and different 5D reality.

Even in our 4D incarnation, we are not utterly cut off from 5D reality (in terms of either higher consciousness or a higher plane of existence - which, again, amount to the same thing). We have intimations of it, leakage from it, hints and nudges and signs. We can improve our access to 5D reality by minimizing the activity of our 4D brain through hypnosis, the hypnopompic or hypnagogic stages of sleep, sensory deprivation, meditation, or even brain-impairing injury or illness. The basic function of the brain is to funnel or filter the overwhelming awareness of 5D consciousness into a manageable slice of 4D consciousness; because of this, impairment of brain functions can result in greater access to 5D consciousness.

Children, whose egos are not yet fully developed, are more likely to be in tune with 5D consciousness and to experience phenomena such as past-life memories, imaginary friends, ghosts, and ESP. Savants, whose brains are incomplete or defective in some way, are able to tune in to the higher levels of awareness of 5D consciousness. Their abilities can seem supernatural because 5D consciousness is supernatural in the literal sense - it is superior to (above and beyond) the 4D physical world.

Dreams, or at least some dreams, are 5D experiences altered and distorted into bizarre, incomprehensible slices of 4D memory. The 4D memory may bear as little resemblance to the original 5D experience as a circle bears to a pencil.

The quantum world is a 5D reality when it is unobserved. But when our 4D consciousness observes it, it must be rendered in 4D terms. Thus, in the double-slit experiments, a subatomic entity like a photon exists as a cloud of potentialities transcending time and space in its 5D form. But when observed, the 5D cloud of potentia must "collapse" into a 4D slice - a particular point in space and time.

Because 5D reality transcends space, entangled quantum entities can continue to affect each other across any distance of space. And because 5D reality transcends time, delayed-choice experiments will show effects that are seemingly retroactive.

What we know as time is a 4D slice of 5D reality. The Planck time, the shortest interval of time that can exist in our reality, is such a slice. What we know as space is also a 4D slice of 5D reality. The Planck length, the shortest interval of space that can exist in our reality is, again, such a slice.

How about various paranormal phenomena?

Telepathy. The five-dimensional realm is essentially unbound by time and space. Separation between minds is a separation of time and space. Without time and space, there is no separation. Therefore the 5D mind, when it is accessed, can pick up other people's thoughts, because it is not cut off from them.

Remote viewing and out-of-body experiences. Since the 5D realm is not limited by physical space or time, access to the 5D mind potentially allows access to any point in space or time.

Retrocognition and precognition. Unrestricted by time, the 5D mind can observe past and future events, or at least probabilities (bearing in mind that the 5D quantum world consists of clouds of probabilities, not specific physical objects at specific points).

Near-death experiences. The dying brain allows greatly expanded access to the 5D realm, though still necessarily interpreted in 4D terms by the recovered patient. These 4D interpretations may be unintentionally misleading and inaccurate, as we see in conflicting claims that reflect cultural differences, or in prophesies that fail.

Mediumship. A medium can connect extra-physically with discarnate (5D) minds; but these minds must adjust to 4-D conditions, in order to interface with the medium's brain. This is why discarnate communicators typically say they must "lower their vibrations" and restrict their consciousness to an earthly level in order to communicate through a medium. It also accounts for errors in communication, as the (temporarily) 4D mind of the communicator and/or the (necessarily) 4D brain of the medium alters and distorts the material coming through - in effect, misinterpreting the 4D slices of 5D reality.

Physical mediumship and psychokinesis. 5D consciousness, transcending space and time, allows manipulation of matter and energy. But when expressed in our 4D reality and perceived by our 4D consciousness, this ability is inevitably inhibited and curtailed. Physical mediums insist that they cannot perform in the light, not even infrared light. Although this requirement has often been merely a cover for fraud, it may also have a legitimate basis, in that any illumination that allows the 4D brain to perceive the phenomena will also inevitably distort, alter, restrict, and inhibit the phenomena by converting it into 4D terms.

Ghosts, apparitions, hauntings, poltergeists. These seem to exist at the borderland between 5D and 4D realities, and as such they are ephemeral, elusive, and sometimes perceived by certain observers but not others. Attempts to capture the phenomena on film or video often fail, presumably because, as with physical mediumship, any physical (4D) perception will inevitably distort or inhibit the 5D source.

UFOs and related phenomena. Again, these seem to exist at the borderland between 5D and 4D realities, with many of the the same characteristics as ghosts and apparitions (or sightings of the Virgin Mary etc.). If UFOs, whatever they are, originate in 5D reality, then their intrusion into our 4D reality will inevitably alter and distort them. What we are seeing is a 4D slice, not the 5D whole. Since perception is reality, and since we can only perceive things that are familiar to us in some way, we will perceive these 4D slices as something roughly known to us. Technologically primitive peoples may perceive them as gods. A seafaring people may perceive them as schooners in the sky. A culture just developing airships may see them as immense dirigibles. A culture on the verge of space travel may perceive them as spaceships. These perceptions have little to do with the actual 5D reality, which our 4D minds cannot apprehend. Our senses cannot be trusted when dealing with slices of 5D phenomena that we're not equipped to perceive.

Synchronicities. These are possibly an example of the 5D higher self impinging on the 4D ego and its environment. Again, the distinction between observer and observed may not hold at higher levels of reality, so that changes in our environment and changes in our perception may only be two different aspects of the same thing.

The basic point is that the ground of being is a five- (or more-) dimensional reality, while our ordinary experience is a four-dimensional reality. Attempts to apprehend intrusions of 5D phenomena into our 4D realm will inevitably distort the true nature of those phenomena. We can see only a slice of this higher dimension. In fact, we ourselves - as we currently exist in this incarnation - are only a slice of our true higher-dimensional selves. Where we make an error is in mistaking the slice for the whole.

from https://www.sott.net/article/422869-...the-paranormal

[Ernie Nemeth]

I believe, because of the intrinsic nature of the evil all around us and the tendency of everything here to decay and fade away, that this plane of existence is unreal. Given that is not how we encounter it, it seems to me that any attempt to rationalize the reality of this situation is a means to keep us locked into this level. So all talk of spirituality, obe, or any other manifestation in this realm is merely a figment and part of the gestalt of this place.

The very best to be hoped for is a quick and violent end, one that leaves no time for contemplation at the moment of death.

In this way the normal attraction of returning is removed and the self can naturally break out of this matrix.

When I die I will not be looking for anything, or trying to make sense of which path to take. I will feel my way toward the love of my Creator with single-minded purpose. No lesser interest will deter or distract me.

I came here on purpose to free the minds of god's creation, my own foremost. When I shake off these mortal coils it will be forever. Like a reformed drug addict, it is the downside of the experience that keeps me safe from future temptation.

I will not be back, thanks.

The souls I have touched will carry on the work. I will help from the other side where I am far more adept and effective.