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Thread: Was there a body switch done at JFK's autopsy?

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    Default Was there a body switch done at JFK's autopsy?

    After JFK was shot on November 22nd 1963 he was driven immediately 4 miles to Parkland Hospital. The doctor that just happened to be in the ER that day was Dr. Carrico. Dr. Carrico immediately noticed JFK was gasping for air. The medical term that is more descriptive is agonal breathing or dying gasps. Since JFK was trying to breath Dr. Carrico felt he must act. He inserted a breathing tube, an endotracheal tube, but there was a small hole at the right side base of his trachea where air bubbles were coming out. By this time a vascular surgeon had arrived, Dr. Perry. Using his clinical judgment, seeing the frothing blood at the base of the neck Dr. Perry performed an emergency tracheotomy. Upon starting the tracheotomy Dr. Perry noted there were signs of a possible pneumothorax so he requested other doctors insert chest tubes. Dr. Baxter and Dr. Peters inserted the chest tube on the right. Dr. Jones inserted the chest tube on the left.
    There were 3 cutdowns done to start IV's. A cutdown is a procedure where an incision is done to expose a vein, in order to insert a tube to give fluids. Thus the term intervenous or IV fluid. When fluid started to be administered through one of these IV's it infiltrated. Infiltration means that the fluid goes into the surrounding tissue instead of the vein. This makes the surrounding area hard and painful. Since the other 2 IVs were flowing without problem another cutdown was not done. Through these 2 IV sites 2 units of O negative blood was given along with IV fluid. O negative blood is the type of blood that can be given in emergency situations where there is not enough time to crossmatch blood.
    The discrepancy is that during the autopsy there were found superficial lacerations on the chest where chest tubes could have been inserted but weren't. There were also superficial lacerations where cutdowns could have been performed but weren't. The autopists assumed that the insertion of chest tubes and IV's was contemplated but not done because the situation was too hopeless. Which is a logical assumption but according to the testimony of Parkland doctors it was the wrong assumption.
    On March 25th 1964 Arlen Specter travelled to Dallas Texas to take the Parkland doctors' testimony of what each personally did and observed in Trauma room 1 on November 22nd 1963. The testimony can be found in the Warren Commission Hearings Volume VI http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/co...ntents_wh6.htm
    From Dr. Peter's testimony Volume VI Warren Commission testimony:
    Dr. Peters: "Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter were doing the tracheotomy and a set of tracheotomy tubes was obtained and the appropriate size was determined and I gave it to Baxter, who helped Peerry put it into the wound, and Perry noted also that there appeared to be a bubbling sensation in the chest and recommended that chest tubes be put in. Dr. Ron Jones put a chest tube in on the left side and Dr. Baxter and I put it in on the right side--I made the incision in the President's chest and I noted that there was no bleeding from the wound."
    Specter: "Did you put that chest tube all the way in on the right side?"
    Dr. Peters: "That's our presumption--yes."
    Specter: And what else was done for the President?"
    From Dr. Jones testimony Volume VI Warren Commisssion testimony:
    Dr. Jones: "Well, as Dr. Perry started the tracheotomy, I started the cut down in the left arm to insert a large polyethylene catheter, to give an IV so that we could give IV solutions as well as blood, and at the same time another doctor or two were doing some cutdowns in the lower extremities around the ankle. We made the cutdown in the left arm in the cephalic vein very rapidly and IV fluids were started immediately and as I was doing this, Dr. Perry was performing the tracheotomy, and it was about this time that Dr. Baxter came in and went ahead to assist Dr. Perry with the tracheotomy, and as they made a deeper incision in the neck to isolate the trachea, they thought they saw some gush of air and possibility of a pneumothorax on one side or the other entertained, and since I was to the left of the President, I went ahead and put it in the anterior chest tube in the second intercostal spacel"
    Specter: "was that tube full inserted, Doctor?"
    Dr. Jones: " I felt that the tube was full inserted, and this was immediately connected to underwater ddrainage."
    Apecter: "What do you mean by "connected to underwater drainage, Dr. Jones?"
    Dr. Jones: "The tube is connected to a bottle whereby it aerates in the chest from a pneumothorax and as the patient breathes, the air is forced out under the water and produces somewhat of a suction so that the lung will re-expland and will not stay collapsed and this will give adequate aeration to the body, and we decided to go ahead and put in a chest tube on the opposite side: since I could not reach the opposite side due to the nuber of people that were working on the President. Dr. Baxter was over there helping Dr. Peryy on that side, as well as Dr. Paul Peters, the assistant head of urology here, and the three of us then inserted the chest tube on the right side, primarily done by Dr. Baxter and Dr. Peterson the right side."
    Specter: "then what other treatment, if any, was afforded President Kennedy?"
    On March 16th the autopists, Dr. Humes, Dr. Boswell and Dr. Finck had given their testimony in front of the Warren Commission. Note that this testimony is given 9 days prior to the Parkland doctors testimony. Dr. Humes was the lead autopist.
    The following quotation is from Dr. Humes testimony given to the Warren Commission on Monday March 16th 1964. http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jf...Vol2_0178a.htm
    Humes: "So when we examined the President in addition to the large wound which we found in conversation with Doctor Perry was the tracheotomy wound, there were two smaller wounds on the upper anterior chest:
    Dulles: "These are apparently exit wounds?"
    Humes: "Sir, these were knife wounds, these were incised wounds on either side of the chest, and I will give them in somewhat greater detail.
    These wounds were bilateral. They were situated on the anterior chest wall in the nipple line, and each were 2 cm long in the transverse axis. The one on the right was situated 11 cm. above the nipple-the one on the left was situated 11 cm. on the nipple and the one on the right was 8 cm. above the nipple. Their intention was to incise through the president's chest to place tubes into his chest.
    We examinded those wounds very carefully and found that they, however did not enter the chest cavity. They only went through the skin.
    I presume that as they were performing that procedure it was obvious that the President had died, and they didn't pursue this"
    Later in Humes testimony before the Warren Commission he again describes the surgical wounds.
    Humes: "Now, we also made note of the types of wounds which I mentioned to you before in this testimony on the chest which were going to be used by the doctors there to place chest tubes. They also made other wounds, one on the left arm, and a wound on the anle of the President with the idea of administering intravenous blood and other fluids in hope of replacing the the blood which the President had lost from his extensive wounds."

    Arlen Specter heard the Parkland doctors say on March 25th 1964 that they had inserted the chest tubes but Arlen did not tell the Parkland doctors that he had heard the autopists say on March 16th 1964 that chest tubes or IV's were not inserted. Arlen Specter did nothing to look into this controversy.

    In 1977 during his testimony for the HSCA, House Select Committee on Assassinations, Dr. Carrico mentions the chest tubes.
    Carrico: ...By that time, several other physicians had arrive, and I directed my attention to estabilishing more intravenous fluids, and administration of fluids and medications while they continued to work on the (the testimony is incomplete in the record at Mary Ferrell's website)
    Further into his testimony:
    Carrico: After the endotracheal tube was inserted, as I said, the next step is to try to restore breathing -- an airway, then you try to restore the circulation. And we had adequate but not perfect ventilation. The next thing we tried to do was get the circulation going. There were already a couple of IV lines started by incisions in the ankle. Another one was being done in the arm. The President was getting fluids through those to try to get his blood pressure up. I don't know if blood had been started at that point or not. He was given some corticosteroids, and Dr. Perry and Dr. Jones took over the primary management and I started making sure that the IVs, etc. were running properly.
    Further in Carrico's testimony:
    Purdy: What evidence did you obtain from the chest tubes?
    Carrico: Again, this is second-hand, I didn't do this. But, when the chest tubes were inserted, there was a small amount of blood, and small amount of air, which could have resulted from the actual surgical manipulation or could conceivably have been commensrurated or compatible with some very small pneumothorax or hemothorac. But basically the chest tubes did not show any signs of massive injury and did not in their insertion improve the situation.
    On February 13th 1996 Dr. Humes was interviewed by the ARRB, Assassination Record Review Board.
    Question: Did you notice any surgical incisions anywhere on the body of President Kennedy when you first saw him?
    Humes: Yeah, there was a gaping defect that obviously a tracheotomy incision in the anterior neck, and there were a couple of small--you never heard much about this, either. A couple of small incised wounds on the chest, and I forget == I wrote down, wherever I wrote it down, that it looked to me like somebody was going to think of putting in a chest tube. But they never did, because all they did was go through the skin. They obviously==I imagine they decided the President was deceased before they were going to pursue it. But somebody started, apparently, to insert chest tubes, which would not be an unreasonable thing to do. They were, you know, maybe two centimeters long, something like that, and between the ribs, low in the anterior chest.
    I'm sure I described them in the protocol someplace.
    Question: Were there any cutdown on any of the--
    Humes: I think there was in one of the ankles. There was cutdown wound. I forget whether it was the right or left ankle now, to tell you the truth. If I had to guess, I'd say it was right, but I'm not sure.

    There is so much evidence that the bodies were switched at the autopsy. Parkland doctors inserted chest tubes and did cutdowns for IV"s and infused fluid and blood. The corpse at the autopsy didn't have chest tubes inserted or have IV's sites that were actually used.
    The corpse's gunshot wound to the back of the head was in the wrong place. So in the late 1960's the Clark Panel miracously said the bullet hole was 10cm higher up then what the autopists found.
    The autopsy said the corpse' eyes were blue in color, but JFK's eyes were grey green.
    The corpse had a disc that was bulging but JFK's problem wasn't a bulging disc. JFK had compression fractures.
    Crenshaw states in his book, Trama room 1, that he took off JFK's shoes that one had a lift in it but the corpse at the morgue didn't have one leg shorter than the other.
    JFK had a permament tan due to Addison's but no mention is made of this about the corpse at Bethesda.
    The corpse had a well healed back scar but JFK had terrible infections in his back wound and would therefore have scars from those infections but no mention of this is made.
    The description of JFK's face at Parkland was that his eyes were bulging out. The corpse at Bethesda did not have eyes that were bulging out. Arlen Specter gave a oral history in June 2012 for c-span, he remembered how the nurses' at Parkland hospital had said JFK's eyes were bulging out. For those of you haven't seen dead bodies bulging eyes do not become sunken after the body dies. Circulation stops and what's swollen stays swollen.
    In Humes' JAMA interview in '92 he states JFK didn't have subcutaneous fat in his face from his Addison's. Well, the corpse didn't have subcutaneous fat in his face but JFK did. JFK often bemoaned how his face had become more moon shaped.
    The reader will need to research all this for themselves. Mary Ferrell's website, AARC website. If I knew how to hyperlink in this blog I would put it in but I don't.
    In 1977 HSCA did touch on the possiblity that the bodies could have been switched. They did numerous facial measurements so they said body switching could not have happened. Dr. Robert Morningstar has done research of how Jack Tippet looked similar to JFK. Please refer to his material.
    Please forgive my typos.

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    Default Re: Was there a body switch done at JFK's autopsy?

    Unofficially, no "proper" autopsy was given or was "allowed" to be given. I wonder why??

    And to make it even more difficult to find out;

    "1995: Attorney Harry Connick Snr (father of the famous musician/actor), takes over ongoing JFK investigation after Jim Garrison's death. Four of Five Filing Cabinets of information on case have vanished."
    Last edited by KiwiElf; 19th November 2012 at 03:57.

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    Default Re: Was there a body switch done at JFK's autopsy?

    Very interesting! So, so many questions unanswered.

    The single most damning piece of evidence is the video of the Secret Service agent being told to stand away from JFK's limo. You can see he is very confused, raising his arms up in question, like WTF, this is my job. He was blocking the shot!!!
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    Default Re: Was there a body switch done at JFK's autopsy?

    Quote Posted by conk (here)
    Very interesting! So, so many questions unanswered.

    The single most damning piece of evidence is the video of the Secret Service agent being told to stand away from JFK's limo. You can see he is very confused, raising his arms up in question, like WTF, this is my job. He was blocking the shot!!!
    I am so ashamed to call myself human and worst of all American... I found said video because honestly I had never heard of it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFpPjjKdUds

    How can anyone doubt that this was an assassination done from the inside? The level of ignorance never ceases to amaze me. No wonder all this corruption has gone on and blossomed...

    One of the youtube comments states how JFK asked them not to ride on the back anymore. Even if he did request or order this it wouldn't have been done this way. The Secret Service agent would've known to back off on his own instead of receiving the order from the trailing car. Thus all the commotion and wtf shoulder shrugs.

    I'm boiling with rage thinking how my forefathers were duped so easily. I feel shame for them and it's something I would never shut up about, if this happened in my generation. Perhaps there were a slew of "suicides" after this event. quieting the folks of valor and reason.

    edit: Even on 9/11/01 when I was a mere 16 years old I spouted off in my high school. I was nearly sent home for this, and any other day i probably would've been. I told everyone in my class as we watched the news that it was impossible for planes to collapse those buildings at those impact points. But hey we all watched it happen in real time or close to real time. No one believed me then and now some years later the evidence is piling up in my favor. Just goes to remind me how ignorant people can be, especially if they see it with their "eyes". The fact that it was televised probably made that bull**** a lot easier to swallow.
    Last edited by GrnEggsNHam; 19th November 2012 at 16:29.

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    Default Re: Was there a body switch done at JFK's autopsy?

    I have an intersting story.

    Typical conspiracy stuff in that it is second hand unconfirmed information, but still....

    My very close childhood friend (he lived just down the street from me) had an uncle who was a member of the Presidential Airlift Group during the early 1960's. The PAG is the group that supplies the pilots and crews for the President. The Colonel who is the President's main pilot is always a publicly availabile name, but each flight has at least 3 pilots plus crew, and I have not been able to dig up a list of the historical members of the PAG.

    In any case he always maintained that his uncle was a member of the PAG, and while the rest of the country was watching Kennedy's funeral, he was ordered to fly out over the Atlantic in a cargo plane. He said that a coffin was dumped out of the back of the plane.

    That's it. He never claimed to know who or what was in the coffin.

    Could it have been the President's body? It could also have been some spy who was killed during questioning. It could have been someone else who knew too much. It could have been a box full of documents. It could have been empty. It could have been completely unrelated.

    The frustrating thing is that it is such a tantalizing piece of information, and that we will likely never know the truth of it.
    Just because I took the red pill, it doesn't mean that I washed it down with the koolaid

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    Default Re: Was there a body switch done at JFK's autopsy?

    Thank you for posting
    I hear you on the ashamed bit GENH, so much contrary evidence and no 'real' investigation.
    I was 14 at the time of JFK's assasination, two weeks earlier we had been doing portraits in art class at school. I brought home my 'effort' and my proud dad pinned it up in the stable tack room/workshop with other items of interest he had collected. 'That's a good likeness of Jackie Kennedy' my dad said, well i didn't know, it wasn't supposed to be anyone in particular. lol.
    At the precise moment the news came through about the assasination I was in the stable grooming my pony listening to the radio. I buried my face in the pony's main, shocked that such a thing could happen, as i regained composure i was looking straight at the picture I had recently painted.

    Many years later while watching JFK the movie, during the zappruder film clip where Jackie tries to climb out the back of the car, a security person runs up to seemingly tell her to get back in or something, I noticed a small dark shadow pass accross the boot/trunk from jackie to the security guy. I wondered if it was a gun, and thought about the picture and the moment in the stable.
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    Default Re: Was there a body switch done at JFK's autopsy?

    Oliver Stone's movie"J.F.K" is an excellent docu-drama of the events imo. It raised interest to a new generation and was seen by millions. (I recommend Robert Groden's book on the subject also, co-written by Jim Garrison (deceased), the DA who reopened the case in the 70's and the lead part in the movie (played by Kevin Costner).

    Perhaps one of the most interesting revelations was that a newspaper here in NZ, ran the story of JFK's assasination BEFORE it had happened. (same with 9/11 and FOX showing a plane hitting the tower before it actually happened). It's staggering what is still being covered up about the assassination even now. As for the "magic bullet theory", anyone who believes that BS needs some help in the logical reasoning department.

    The Kennedy's were an incredible threat to many aspects of TPTB at the time; Robert Kennedy possibly the victim of a "manchurian candidate", (the probable tie-in to MJ-12, Marylin's "suicide" then takes on new meaning), and then John Jnr whose plane crash a few years ago is also highly suspect.
    Last edited by KiwiElf; 19th November 2012 at 21:52.

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    Default Re: Was there a body switch done at JFK's autopsy?

    Quote Posted by KiwiElf (here)
    Unofficially, no "proper" autopsy was given or was "allowed" to be given. I wonder why??

    And to make it even more difficult to find out;

    "1995: Attorney Harry Connick Snr (father of the famous musician/actor), takes over ongoing JFK investigation after Jim Garrison's death. Four of Five Filing Cabinets of information on case have vanished."
    KIWIELF, What difference does it make if a "proper" autopsy was done or not since the body that was autopsied was not JFK's?

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    Default Re: Was there a body switch done at JFK's autopsy?

    Ummm I find that theory highly unlikely before or at the autopsy - if you read Groden's take on it, it holds up way better than the rest. A proper and legal forensic autopsy was proven not to have been done (on ANY body - the required "forensic autopsy" would have shown path of the projectiles and proven his identity, which may or may not support that theory either way).

    Butttttt,... like the previously unseen Zapbruder footage bought the Warren Commissions' findings into serious question, Groden's book shows previously unpublished autopsy shots of Kennedy's head (color - examples below are B/W) - make up effects we'ren't that good then, ie a dummy, (Photoshop wasn't around either), the obviously doctored photos of a neat little bullet hole in the back of his head were convincing to some in the absence of these previously unpublished photos; in these more recently released shots, most of his brain is hanging out, most of the top of his skull is GONE and his face is very visible, changing the possible outcome again. Can you explain that little photographic trick with a "swapped body" and photographic technology of the time (and they are pretty clearly Kennedy - not Tippet - either that or a perfect clone - In 1963??) Please keep in mind that most people still haven't seen these photos.

    Slightly off track, but Lee Harvey's widow recently testified that "she was there" when the infamously questionable photos of Oswald were taken in the back yard holding "the rifle". Whether she says so or not, I'm sorry; sunlight can't come from two different directions at the same time. More very obvious photo doctoring consistent with what was possible at the time.

    Wayyy after the fact [autopsy] yes, it's quite possible the body was swapped, & the real corpse could be stored on ice somewhere - it's just one of many "anomalies" that proves a conspiracy (and unlikely we will ever know).

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    Last edited by KiwiElf; 21st November 2012 at 03:32.

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    Default Re: Was there a body switch done at JFK's autopsy?

    Quote Posted by KiwiElf (here)
    Ummm I find that theory highly unlikely before or at the autopsy - if you read Groden's take on it, it holds up way better than the rest. A proper and legal forensic autopsy was proven not to have been done (on ANY body - the required "forensic autopsy" would have shown path of the projectiles
    and proven his identity, which may or may not support that theory either way). Butttttt,... like the previously unseen Zapbruder footage bought the Warren Commissions' findings into serious question, Groden's book shows previously unpublished autopsy shots of Kennedy's head (color - examples below are B/W) - make up effects we'ren't that good then, ie a dummy, (Photoshop wasn't around either), the obviously doctored photos of a neat little bullet hole in the back of his head were convincing to some in the absence of these previously unpublished photos; in these more recently released shots, most of his brain is hanging out, most of the top of his skull is GONE and his face is very visible, changing the possible outcome again. Can you explain that little photographic trick with a "swapped body" and photographic technology of the time (and they are pretty clearly Kennedy - not Tippet - either that or a perfect clone - In 1963??) Please keep in mind that most people still haven't seen these photos.
    .
    Wayyy after the fact [autopsy] yes, it's quite possible the body was swapped, & the real corpse could be stored on ice somewhere - it's just one of many "anomalies" that proves a conspiracy (and unlikely we will ever know).

    Attachment 19372

    Attachment 19373
    KIWIELF, Dr. Humes attempted to explore the path of the missile that hit the corpse at the base of the neck but to do so would have torn the flesh he stated. The reason there was no path was assumed to be because rigor mortis had set in or that because there was a change in position so that the muscles had obscurred the path of the bullet. My thinking is that a bullet had been put into the corpse and then pulled out just to confuse the autopists. Have you read Dr. Hume's testimony? It's in volume II of the Warren Commission testimony

    KIWIELF, Regarding the statement that the face was clearly Kennedy's, I disagree. It looked like the Kennedy of of 1945. A very thin face without the affect of Addisons.
    Humes stated that the face lacked subcutaneous fat that a patient with Addisons would have. Have you seen Robert Morningstar's picture of Kennedy and Tippet with their half faces together? Add some botox to the cheeks, pluck the eyebrows, color the hair. Have you see the film "The men who killed Kennedy?". In the film a women states her boyfriend was very skilled at altering dead people's appearances and that day of the assassination he was called away and came back very scared until Ruby shot Oswald and then he relaxed.
    The body in the pictures does not have a hole for a chest tube that has been inserted with a trocar (a hollow metal tube used to puncture the chest cavity). Crenshaw states in his book that a trocar was used.
    The body in the pictures does not have his eyes bugging out as described by Arlen Specter in his 2012 oral history given to C-span.
    The one thing that I couldn't understand was Tippet's hairline, but then I read how the hair was not attached to the skull. I can't recall exactly where I read this

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    Default Re: Was there a body switch done at JFK's autopsy?

    Yes, yes and possibly not... altho quite a while ago. Still doesn't answer my question(s) though or account for these photos, which were post Zapbruder's footage and omitted from the Warren Report .

    The Warren Commission Report has many "flaws" and false/inaccurate testimonies, mostly based on the "magic bullet theory" - (just like the "Official 9/11 story" etc). The Warren Commission Report was officially disproved once the Zapbruder footage was released clearly showing Kennedy was shot from both behind AND in front.

    These "missing" piccies corroborate injuries that are consistent with those seen in Zapbruders' footage. The last and fatal shot literally explodes his head (from the front), whereas the other "holes" are neat bullet marks. So there had to be at least 2 shooters and 2 weapons.. and if anyone was "gasping for air" arriving at the hospital with those kinda injuries, I think that's pretty "unbelievable". But I don't "know" - I wasn't there!

    There are soooo many theories; some are just a bit more believable when connected to a bigger picture. SKY still tries to peddle the Official Oswald shot JFK story by "proving it with re-enactments" and "new witnesses" - yuh,... riiiite. At the end of the day, I have absolutely no idea - and nor does anyone else - because there is no body "available" to prove it either way. But it is very intriguing watching who get's popped off, threatened or rewarded when giving "evidence" and who doesn't

    BTW, these findings come from Jim Garrison who was investigating it from the 70's when he reopened the case officially, right through to his death shortly after the release of the movie & this book (from natural causes I understand).
    Last edited by KiwiElf; 21st November 2012 at 03:31.

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    Default Re: Was there a body switch done at JFK's autopsy?

    Quote Posted by Lazlo (here)
    I have an intersting story.

    Typical conspiracy stuff in that it is second hand unconfirmed information, but still....

    My very close childhood friend (he lived just down the street from me) had an uncle who was a member of the Presidential Airlift Group during the early 1960's. The PAG is the group that supplies the pilots and crews for the President. The Colonel who is the President's main pilot is always a publicly availabile name, but each flight has at least 3 pilots plus crew, and I have not been able to dig up a list of the historical members of the PAG.

    In any case he always maintained that his uncle was a member of the PAG, and while the rest of the country was watching Kennedy's funeral, he was ordered to fly out over the Atlantic in a cargo plane. He said that a coffin was dumped out of the back of the plane.

    That's it. He never claimed to know who or what was in the coffin.

    Could it have been the President's body? It could also have been some spy who was killed during questioning. It could have been someone else who knew too much. It could have been a box full of documents. It could have been empty. It could have been completely unrelated.

    The frustrating thing is that it is such a tantalizing piece of information, and that we will likely never know the truth of it.
    JFK was not buried in the coffin that was used to transport his body from Dallas. The Kennedy family instructed that the coffin be dropped into the sea as they did not want it to become morbid memoribilia. So, this is a true story - the coffin that was used to transport Kennedy's body from Dallas was dumped in the sea!
    Sandie
    Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. (Carl Sagan)

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    Default Re: Was there a body switch done at JFK's autopsy?

    Quote Posted by sdv (here)
    Quote Posted by Lazlo (here)
    I have an intersting story.

    Typical conspiracy stuff in that it is second hand unconfirmed information, but still....

    My very close childhood friend (he lived just down the street from me) had an uncle who was a member of the Presidential Airlift Group during the early 1960's. The PAG is the group that supplies the pilots and crews for the President. The Colonel who is the President's main pilot is always a publicly availabile name, but each flight has at least 3 pilots plus crew, and I have not been able to dig up a list of the historical members of the PAG.

    In any case he always maintained that his uncle was a member of the PAG, and while the rest of the country was watching Kennedy's funeral, he was ordered to fly out over the Atlantic in a cargo plane. He said that a coffin was dumped out of the back of the plane.

    That's it. He never claimed to know who or what was in the coffin.

    Could it have been the President's body? It could also have been some spy who was killed during questioning. It could have been someone else who knew too much. It could have been a box full of documents. It could have been empty. It could have been completely unrelated.

    The frustrating thing is that it is such a tantalizing piece of information, and that we will likely never know the truth of it.
    JFK was not buried in the coffin that was used to transport his body from Dallas. The Kennedy family instructed that the coffin be dropped into the sea as they did not want it to become morbid memoribilia. So, this is a true story - the coffin that was used to transport Kennedy's body from Dallas was dumped in the sea!
    The thanks button was unsufficient. I had not known this. I'm going to have to give my friend a call and let him know.
    Just because I took the red pill, it doesn't mean that I washed it down with the koolaid

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    Default Re: Was there a body switch done at JFK's autopsy?

    baddbod has a related thread here:

    http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...vember-22-1963

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    Default Re: Was there a body switch done at JFK's autopsy?

    Jesus -- the OP was one, gigantic block of text ... very hard to read.


    I took the liberty of breaking it up into much-smaller paragraphs, if you don't mind, OP.


    Note to OP -- please always post anything with small paragraphs and not gigantic blocks of text.


    Quote Posted by Betty (here)
    After JFK was shot on November 22nd 1963 he was driven immediately 4 miles to Parkland Hospital. The doctor that just happened to be in the ER that day was Dr. Carrico. Dr. Carrico immediately noticed JFK was gasping for air.

    The medical term that is more descriptive is agonal breathing or dying gasps. Since JFK was trying to breath Dr. Carrico felt he must act. He inserted a breathing tube, an endotracheal tube, but there was a small hole at the right side base of his trachea where air bubbles were coming out. By this time a vascular surgeon had arrived, Dr. Perry.

    Using his clinical judgment, seeing the frothing blood at the base of the neck Dr. Perry performed an emergency tracheotomy. Upon starting the tracheotomy Dr. Perry noted there were signs of a possible pneumothorax so he requested other doctors insert chest tubes. Dr. Baxter and Dr. Peters inserted the chest tube on the right. Dr. Jones inserted the chest tube on the left.

    There were 3 cutdowns done to start IV's. A cutdown is a procedure where an incision is done to expose a vein, in order to insert a tube to give fluids. Thus the term intervenous or IV fluid. When fluid started to be administered through one of these IV's it infiltrated. Infiltration means that the fluid goes into the surrounding tissue instead of the vein.

    This makes the surrounding area hard and painful. Since the other 2 IVs were flowing without problem another cutdown was not done. Through these 2 IV sites 2 units of O negative blood was given along with IV fluid. O negative blood is the type of blood that can be given in emergency situations where there is not enough time to crossmatch blood.

    The discrepancy is that during the autopsy there were found superficial lacerations on the chest where chest tubes could have been inserted but weren't. There were also superficial lacerations where cutdowns could have been performed but weren't. The autopists assumed that the insertion of chest tubes and IV's was contemplated but not done because the situation was too hopeless.

    Which is a logical assumption but according to the testimony of Parkland doctors it was the wrong assumption.

    On March 25th 1964 Arlen Specter traveled to Dallas Texas to take the Parkland doctors' testimony of what each personally did and observed in Trauma room 1 on November 22nd 1963.

    The testimony can be found in the Warren Commission Hearings Volume VI http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/co...ntents_wh6.htm

    From Dr. Peter's testimony Volume VI Warren Commission testimony:
    Dr. Peters: "Dr. Perry and Dr. Baxter were doing the tracheotomy and a set of tracheotomy tubes was obtained and the appropriate size was determined and I gave it to Baxter, who helped Peerry put it into the wound, and Perry noted also that there appeared to be a bubbling sensation in the chest and recommended that chest tubes be put in. Dr. Ron Jones put a chest tube in on the left side and Dr. Baxter and I put it in on the right side--I made the incision in the President's chest and I noted that there was no bleeding from the wound."

    Specter: "Did you put that chest tube all the way in on the right side?"

    Dr. Peters: "That's our presumption--yes."

    Specter: And what else was done for the President?"

    From Dr. Jones testimony Volume VI Warren Commisssion testimony:
    Dr. Jones: "Well, as Dr. Perry started the tracheotomy, I started the cut down in the left arm to insert a large polyethylene catheter, to give an IV so that we could give IV solutions as well as blood, and at the same time another doctor or two were doing some cutdowns in the lower extremities around the ankle.

    We made the cutdown in the left arm in the cephalic vein very rapidly and IV fluids were started immediately and as I was doing this, Dr. Perry was performing the tracheotomy, and it was about this time that Dr. Baxter came in and went ahead to assist Dr. Perry with the tracheotomy, and as they made a deeper incision in the neck to isolate the trachea, they thought they saw some gush of air and possibility of a pneumothorax on one side or the other entertained, and since I was to the left of the President, I went ahead and put it in the anterior chest tube in the second intercostal spacel"

    Specter: "was that tube full inserted, Doctor?"

    Dr. Jones: " I felt that the tube was full inserted, and this was immediately connected to underwater ddrainage."

    Specter: "What do you mean by "connected to underwater drainage, Dr. Jones?"

    Dr. Jones: "The tube is connected to a bottle whereby it aerates in the chest from a pneumothorax and as the patient breathes, the air is forced out under the water and produces somewhat of a suction so that the lung will re-expland and will not stay collapsed and this will give adequate aeration to the body, and we decided to go ahead and put in a chest tube on the opposite side: since I could not reach the opposite side due to the nuber of people that were working on the President.

    Dr. Baxter was over there helping Dr. Peryy on that side, as well as Dr. Paul Peters, the assistant head of urology here, and the three of us then inserted the chest tube on the right side, primarily done by Dr. Baxter and Dr. Peterson the right side."

    Specter: "then what other treatment, if any, was afforded President Kennedy?"
    On March 16th the autopists, Dr. Humes, Dr. Boswell and Dr. Finck had given their testimony in front of the Warren Commission. Note that this testimony is given 9 days prior to the Parkland doctors testimony. Dr. Humes was the lead autopist.


    The following quotation is from Dr. Humes testimony given to the Warren Commission on Monday March 16th 1964.

    http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jf...Vol2_0178a.htm
    Humes: "So when we examined the President in addition to the large wound which we found in conversation with Doctor Perry was the tracheotomy wound, there were two smaller wounds on the upper anterior chest:

    Dulles: "These are apparently exit wounds?"

    Humes: "Sir, these were knife wounds, these were incised wounds on either side of the chest, and I will give them in somewhat greater detail.

    These wounds were bilateral. They were situated on the anterior chest wall in the nipple line, and each were 2 cm long in the transverse axis. The one on the right was situated 11 cm. above the nipple-the one on the left was situated 11 cm. on the nipple and the one on the right was 8 cm. above the nipple. Their intention was to incise through the president's chest to place tubes into his chest.

    We examinded those wounds very carefully and found that they, however did not enter the chest cavity. They only went through the skin. I presume that as they were performing that procedure it was obvious that the President had died, and they didn't pursue this"
    Later in Humes testimony before the Warren Commission he again describes the surgical wounds:
    Humes: "Now, we also made note of the types of wounds which I mentioned to you before in this testimony on the chest which were going to be used by the doctors there to place chest tubes. They also made other wounds, one on the left arm, and a wound on the anle of the President with the idea of administering intravenous blood and other fluids in hope of replacing the the blood which the President had lost from his extensive wounds."
    Arlen Specter heard the Parkland doctors say on March 25th 1964 that they had inserted the chest tubes but Arlen did not tell the Parkland doctors that he had heard the autopists say on March 16th 1964 that chest tubes or IV's were not inserted. Arlen Specter did nothing to look into this controversy.

    In 1977 during his testimony for the HSCA, House Select Committee on Assassinations, Dr. Carrico mentions the chest tubes.
    Carrico: "...By that time, several other physicians had arrive, and I directed my attention to estabilishing more intravenous fluids, and administration of fluids and medications while they continued to work on the..." (the testimony is incomplete in the record at Mary Ferrell's website)
    Further into his testimony:

    Carrico: After the endotracheal tube was inserted, as I said, the next step is to try to restore breathing -- an airway, then you try to restore the circulation. And we had adequate but not perfect ventilation. The next thing we tried to do was get the circulation going. There were already a couple of IV lines started by incisions in the ankle. Another one was being done in the arm.

    The President was getting fluids through those to try to get his blood pressure up. I don't know if blood had been started at that point or not. He was given some corticosteroids, and Dr. Perry and Dr. Jones took over the primary management and I started making sure that the IVs, etc. were running properly.
    Further in Carrico's testimony:

    Purdy: What evidence did you obtain from the chest tubes?

    Carrico: "Again, this is second-hand, I didn't do this. But, when the chest tubes were inserted, there was a small amount of blood, and small amount of air, which could have resulted from the actual surgical manipulation or could conceivably have been commensrurated or compatible with some very small pneumothorax or hemothorac. But basically the chest tubes did not show any signs of massive injury and did not in their insertion improve the situation."
    On February 13th 1996 Dr. Humes was interviewed by the ARRB, Assassination Record Review Board.
    Question: Did you notice any surgical incisions anywhere on the body of President Kennedy when you first saw him?

    Humes: Yeah, there was a gaping defect that obviously a tracheotomy incision in the anterior neck, and there were a couple of small--you never heard much about this, either. A couple of small incised wounds on the chest, and I forget == I wrote down, wherever I wrote it down, that it looked to me like somebody was going to think of putting in a chest tube. But they never did, because all they did was go through the skin.

    They obviously==I imagine they decided the President was deceased before they were going to pursue it. But somebody started, apparently, to insert chest tubes, which would not be an unreasonable thing to do. They were, you know, maybe two centimeters long, something like that, and between the ribs, low in the anterior chest. I'm sure I described them in the protocol someplace.

    Question: Were there any cutdown on any of the--

    Humes: I think there was in one of the ankles. There was cutdown wound. I forget whether it was the right or left ankle now, to tell you the truth. If I had to guess, I'd say it was right, but I'm not sure."

    There is so much evidence that the bodies were switched at the autopsy. Parkland doctors inserted chest tubes and did cutdowns for IV"s and infused fluid and blood. The corpse at the autopsy didn't have chest tubes inserted or have IV's sites that were actually used.

    The corpse's gunshot wound to the back of the head was in the wrong place. So in the late 1960's the Clark Panel miracously said the bullet hole was 10cm higher up then what the autopists found.

    The autopsy said the corpse' eyes were blue in color, but JFK's eyes were grey green.
    The corpse had a disc that was bulging but JFK's problem wasn't a bulging disc. JFK had compression fractures.

    Crenshaw states in his book, Trama room 1, that he took off JFK's shoes that one had a lift in it but the corpse at the morgue didn't have one leg shorter than the other.
    JFK had a permament tan due to Addison's but no mention is made of this about the corpse at Bethesda.

    The corpse had a well healed back scar but JFK had terrible infections in his back wound and would therefore have scars from those infections but no mention of this is made.

    The description of JFK's face at Parkland was that his eyes were bulging out. The corpse at Bethesda did not have eyes that were bulging out. Arlen Specter gave a oral history in June 2012 for c-span, he remembered how the nurses' at Parkland hospital had said JFK's eyes were bulging out.

    For those of you haven't seen dead bodies bulging eyes do not become sunken after the body dies. Circulation stops and what's swollen stays swollen.

    In Humes' JAMA interview in '92 he states JFK didn't have subcutaneous fat in his face from his Addison's. Well, the corpse didn't have subcutaneous fat in his face but JFK did. JFK often bemoaned how his face had become more moon shaped.

    The reader will need to research all this for themselves. Mary Ferrell's website, AARC website. If I knew how to hyperlink in this blog I would put it in but I don't.

    In 1977 HSCA did touch on the possiblity that the bodies could have been switched. They did numerous facial measurements so they said body switching could not have happened. Dr. Robert Morningstar has done research of how Jack Tippet looked similar to JFK. Please refer to his material.

    Please forgive my typos.
    Much easier to read and you're welcome.

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    Default Re: Was there a body switch done at JFK's autopsy?

    This is like the argument about how 9/11 was specifically done. mini-nukes or DEW or another form of controlled demolition.
    It doesn't matter because the people who did it hold the clues and you don't.
    facepalm times trillions
    It's over!
    They are killing anyone who defies them and blowing up tall buildings on TV...

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    Default Re: Was there a body switch done at JFK's autopsy?

    Have just posted a separate related thread here, The Killing of America UNCUT - video documentary. Unretouched, predigitized Zapbruder footage is a few minutes in.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MameAk4FVo8

    Recommended Reading:
    "The Killing of a President - The Complete Photographic Record of the JFK Assassination, the Conspiracy, and the Cover-up" by Robert J. Groden, 1993, Foreword by Oliver Stone (Bloomsbury, Viking, Penguin.

    ISBN: 0-7475-16219)

    featuring the never before published true autopsy photographs alongside the fakes presented to the American public (and much more).

    Was written in conjunction with Oliver Stone's research on the movie/drama "J.F.K." with DA Jim Garrison as key research consultant (the real investigative DA, played by Kevin Costner), who reopened the case, overthrowing the Warren Commission Report and proving the "magic-bullet theory" a complete sham.
    Last edited by KiwiElf; 22nd November 2012 at 06:37.

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    Default Re: Was there a body switch done at JFK's autopsy?

    Thank you Mozart for making the article easier to read. What does OP mean? Betty

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    Default Re: Was there a body switch done at JFK's autopsy?

    Quote Posted by Betty (here)
    Thank you Mozart for making the article easier to read. What does OP mean? Betty

    YW (You're Welcome) Betty.


    "OP" means "Original Post" and "Original Poster"

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    Default Re: Was there a body switch done at JFK's autopsy?

    What does it matter if the body was switched?

    If you're trying to prove it was an inside job then you can see his driver shooting him. It is in the famous video of the assassination that we see all the time but it was cut out of the frame.

    You can see it on the movie made after Bill Cooper died.

    Time stamp: 0:36:25.


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