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Thread: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

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    Default Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

    Ollantaytambo

    Ollantaytambo is located about 50 miles north of Cuzco, the capital of the Inca Empire, at about 9000 feet above sea level. The site was first a royal estate for the Inca Pachacuti, between 1437 and 1471, who apparently destroyed a previous town to build his residence.
    This again depends on what guide book you read, as there are many interpretations and that’s all they are, on one hand you have the Spanish version written by Pedro de Cieza de Leon first published in 1554 or you can have the Inca version Royal Commentaries of the Incas by Garcilaso De La Vega El Inca written in the early 1600’s but had to go through the Spanish church censors which apparently only took five years.
    In all the literature written over the past 500 years, nobody has any real idea of how and who built this place. I’ve read that it was also built by the first age, whatever that means, by giants or was never finished again this all depends on which book you invest in.





    These images give you a sense of the scale of the site.



    This image was taken on one of three rest stops just to get to the top (lack of oxygen) and you can see the alleged carving of virocoucha in the top left hand corner and a grain store to the right.






    Natural looking to me but I guess it’s in the eye of the beholder.




    close up of the grain store .




    Right at the top we are introduced to some huge stone blocks and magnificent stone work.




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    Default Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

    Thank You again, iceni tribe...wonderful sharing!

    We are currently looking into Ed Leedskalnin (Coral Castle) and his connections made in his creations...
    I feel he grasped and used the methods of building and designing of a 'higher order' shown and used
    in many of your pictures from your travels. They were 'tuned in' back then in South America : )

    This is an enthralling thread : )

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    Default Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia











    In this image we can see the mountain where these blocks were quarried, brought down the mountain, across a river and then up to the position there in now.
    There are over 80 blocks that have been quarried and left in different positions along the route to the site, this is I believe why some have suggested the site was still under construction, but I would suggest that these later blocks were to fortify Ollantaytambo from the Spanish and by the mid 1530’s their wasn’t the man power left to move the blocks from the quarry to the site
    .here is a very funny experiment done by the nova team and Protzen who tried to replicate the moving of only a one ton block from the quarry.

    http://www.videopediaworld.com/video...re-Part-1-of-6



    While im on the subject of quarry’s here again are two experiments done at Ollantaytambo by Protzen an accomplished stone mason who attempts to replicate ancient stone cutting methods.

    http://www.videopediaworld.com/video...re-Part-3-of-6

    http://www.videopediaworld.com/video...re-Part-4-of-6

    so it took 13 days just to fit this one stone in this experiment and that’s his conclusive proof.
    The welded rhyolite stones used at the ‘Inca’ site of Ollantaytambo had a hardness of between 6 and 7 on the Mohs scale. Protzen does not mention performing experiments with that type of rock. Nor did he try to shape many-angled, interlocking stones. Nor did he experiment with multi-tonne blocks. A. Hyatt Verrill writes:

    No sane man can believe that a twenty-ton stone was pecked here and there, dropped into position, hoisted out and trued and cut over and over again, until a perfect fit was obtained. Even if we can imagine such endless herculean labour being performed, it would have been impossible in many cases owing to the fact that the stones are locked or dovetailed together. Although some of the stones are fairly square or rectangular and with six faces, many are irregular in form, and some have as many as thirty-two angles. The only way in which such complex forms could have been fitted with such incredible accuracy was by cutting each block to extremely fine measurements, or by means of a template, a process which would indicate that these prehistoric people possessed a most thorough and advanced knowledge of engineering and the higher mathematics.

    Pounding a block with a hammer stone leaves scars, or pit marks, and in the case of limestone, it produces whitish discoloration in or around the scar. Protzen sees the fact that the stones used in Inca walls bear similar scars as proof that only his own method had been used. He cites several writers from the time of the conquest in support of his view. Garcilaso de la Vega wrote in 1609 that the Incas ‘had no other tools to work the stones than some black stones ... with which they dressed the stone by pounding rather than cutting’. Jose de Acosta, a Jesuit priest traveling with the conquistadors, wrote in 1589: ‘All this was done with much manpower and much suffering in the work, for to fit one stone to the other, until they were adjusted, it was necessary to try the fit many times.’3 There is no doubt that such techniques were used during Inca times. But was that the only method the Incas used? And more importantly, were all ‘Inca’-style buildings really constructed by the Incas? Or was the polygonal, cyclopean masonry the work of a far earlier culture?




    Can you imagine sculpting this with hammer stones and copper chisels?







    I wonder how long it would take Protzen to dress these stones into their present form and their not too dissimilar from stonework we will see at Puma Punka .

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    Default Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

    thanks again eaglespirit ,with only being able to post 9 images per post is proving a bit of a headache and it's nice to know that it's worth the effort.
    coral castle is fascinating place and is defiantly on my list of places to visit.



    here we can see a key stone cut with what may be the left over traces of whatever was poured into it over spilling down the side.



    this is believed to be a calendar using the shadows from the carved out knobs to determine the solstices.



    these niches may seem quite standard but believe me , they would be extremely hard to produce using their alleged basic tools.




    You certainly need a head for heights at this site.





    here you can see the ramp going up to Ollantaytambo

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    Default Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

    Machu Picchu

    To get to Machu Picchu you can either hike on the Inca trail or catch the train which is an hour and a half journey from Ollantaytambo .we took the train.



    The train takes you to the bottom of Machu Picchu were you can buy a bottle of water for three times the usual price and it tastes no better.



    Then you get to pay 22 sols for the most harrowing 20 min bus drive along a mostly single lane dirt track at speeds that are quite unsuitable , that’s until the driver meets a bus coming the over way which he then applies the emergency brakes and starts reversing to a passing place.
    The last scene from the film “the Italian job “springs to mind as the bus teeters over the edge of the abyss as the buses pass each other.
    This is the view that greets you when you make it to the top.





    Here is a Inca trail going around the mountain, for this 20 minute walk you need to sign in at a little hut and sign back in on your return, just in case you fall off I presume.





    The trail takes you to a bridge but luckily it’s closed off to the public.


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    Default Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

    Then you get to pay 22 sols for the most harrowing 20 min bus drive along a mostly single lane dirt track at speeds that are quite unsuitable , that’s until the driver meets a bus coming the over way which he then applies the emergency brakes and starts reversing to a passing place.
    The last scene from the film “the Italian job “springs to mind as the bus teeters over the edge of the abyss as the buses pass each other.


    HaHaHa iceni tribe...I experienced those kinds of rides and encounters with other oncoming buses many times while there going through the mountains and many tight switchback turns at high altitudes too : )
    Thanks again!

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    Default Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

    Machu Picchu
    History

    Machu Picchu is alledged to have been built around 1450, at the height of the Inca Empire. The construction of Machu Picchu appears to date from the period of the two great Incas, Pachacutec Inca Yupanqui (1438–71) and Tupac Inca Yupanqui (1472–93). It was abandoned just over 100 years later, in 1572, as a belated result of the Spanish Conquest. It is possible that most of its inhabitants died from smallpox introduced by travellers before the Spanish conquistadors arrived in the area.

    Early encounters







    Although Bingham was the first person to bring word of the ruins to the outside world (1911), previous outsiders were said to have seen them. Simone Waisbard, a long-time researcher of Cusco, claims that Enrique Palma, Gabino Sánchez, and Agustín Lizárraga left their names engraved on one of the rocks at Machu Picchu on 14 July 1901. In 1904, an engineer named Franklin supposedly spotted the ruins from a distant mountain. He told Thomas Payne, an English Christian missionary living in the region, about the site, Payne's family members claim. They also report that in 1906, Payne and fellow missionary Stuart E. McNairn (1867–1956) climbed up to the ruins.
    The site may have been discovered and plundered in 1867 by a German businessman, Augusto Berns. There is some evidence that a German engineer, J. M. von Hassel, arrived earlier. Maps found by historians show references to Machu Picchu as early as 1874.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machu_Picchu
    New evidence is challenging this perception.

    Killke Culture:

    Pre-Inca remains represent 40 percent of Machu Picchu Archaeological Park (Cusco), which hosts the well-known Inca citadel, which last year was chosen one of New 7 Wonders of the World.
    The director of this archaeological park, Fernando Astete, explained that the Inca citadel of Machu Picchu is only one of the 196 archaeological complexes and sites of the zone which has an extension of 38,448 hectares.
    Astete explained that this 40 per cent corresponds to the Killke culture, which inhabited this zone before the naissance of the biggest empire of South America.
    After confirming that the citadel of Machu Picchu was clearly Inca, Astete reported that this empire was built over Killke archaeological centre.
    “Usually, in some excavations where we find Inca remains we can also find Killke culture's remains under them, such as ceramics", he stated to Andina news agency.
    Astete detailed that most of the Killke settlements are located in the area between the entrance of the Archaeological Park and one kilometre away from the Inca citadel.
    Killke architecture "is characterized because it is very similar to the Inca's, though the latter stands out for its very well-defined, geometric, and very good finish structures."



    "Killke has neither the Inca's geometry nor its good finish; instead it is much more rustic. Its constructions are usually oval or semi-circular, not octagonal as the Inca's and are usually inaccessible", he said.
    He added that in Machu Picchu Archaeological Park there are traces of another even older Pre Inca culture: the Chanapata, which was developed during the formative period, but its architectural evidence, is minimal.
    Studies by INC
    A few months ago, the National Institute of Culture (INC) from Cuzco, started for the first time, archaeological research works on the Killke settlement at Machu Picchu Archaeological Park, located on the slopes of Piscacucho hill.

    Most Killke settlements are located on the upper part of the hillslope, unlike the Inca's population centers, located at the bottom.
    The Killke culture, which developed between 1,000 and 1,400 A.C, belonged to the regional states of Cusco, presumably conquered by the Incas.
    May 20, 2008 by Fernando Zora-Carvajal.

    http://incas.homestead.com/cuzco/kil...nca_cusco.html

    here are a few images a sort of then and now from hiram bingham up to the present day to see how much has been restored since 1911.













    Subsidence is evident but not much has changed to this structure in the last 100 years, but nearly 30% of the lesser building's have been repaired/reconstructed.

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    Default Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia





    Now lets have a look a the sheer scale of the place.



    [

    Here’s an image taken from huana picchu , the peak with yet more construction. And 400ft down the other side we have the temple of the moon.





    here a couple of images looking up at huana picchu





    who ever built these structures couldn't have chosen a more difficult site.



    The death defying road up to machu Picchu and more building's on the top of huana picchu.
    As you can see this site is enormous and we are told that all this construction was started in the 1450’s only to be abandoned 80 years later. C’mon really.

    plus we have to bear in mind the other massive sites in the sacred valley,some of we have seen here but there’s a awful lot more that I will briefly cover soon.

    We also have to bear in mind that when the inca’s started these massive building works (1450 AD)they were also building 23,000 km of roads and trails, and expanding their empire from northern Chile to central Ecuador with wars and treaty’s.

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    Default Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

    Let’s take a look at the building construction.





    The gable end on the inside building has been rebuilt, but other than that they are a pretty good match.
    if you look to the right of that gable you can just make out the end of another building that has repaired masonry at the very top, that’s the same in both photos .this masonry is different to the lower courses which would mean it has been rebuilt by either lesser capable stone masons or at a different time period.
    The buildings with the flat roofs also appear to have the top section rebuilt in the same manor, lesser quality stonework sitting on top of much finer work. It’s a possibility that these building were the last to be occupied after the sites collapse by some of the last remaining inhabitants but that’s just speculation on my part.



    This is the same location and you can see the different quality of stonework much clearer.



    With the care and attention paid to building the bottom section of this building , the stonemasons would turn in their grave to see what has been built on top of their work. Why would a building that was under construction suddenly have such a dramatic change?

    This building was either constructed in two different time periods or by lesser capable stonemasons. You can just imagine the look on the Forman’s face when he came to check up on his new gang of workers , he would have thrown a wobbler and the gang might have all ended up in the cooking pot for such a distinctive change in style.
    Another option would be that suddenly they needed to up the tempo and get the building built asp putting aside quality over quantity but I find this the least plausible explanation.



    Again the same thing, superb quality works at the bottom and much poorer construction above although this might be a recent refurbishment.



    This is on the same side but again we come to the same anomaly.



    In this image the apparent change in style may be due to the rounded stones (roof anchors) being added at a later date they look chopped in after the final construction.



    Same room.

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    Default Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia



    This gable looks like a later edition.


    Two different styles again.





    This all looks pretty much as it did when Hiram first photographed the site.





    And here is a couple more from around the site to show some of the workmanship.




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    Default Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

    Sun Temple

    The Sun Temple [view] was dedicated to the solar god and patron Incan deity, Inti. Accessible to only the priests and the Sapa Inca, the temple was an important observatory in which the measurement of the solstices was undertaken. A carved boulder altar in the center of the structure supported the animal sacrifices which provided organs for the priests to make their predictions.



    Beneath the Sun Temple is a cavernous room named the Royal Tomb? Here the nobles, and maybe the Sapa Inca himself, were laid to rest in their mummified state.



    This peculiar rock provides the complex with its name: Intiwatana is the "sun fastener". The winter solstice prompted the great, annual celebration of the Inti Raymi ("sun festivity"). At this time, with the earth located furthest from the Inti ("sun"), the Incas sought to tie the escaping orb to the earth via the Intiwatana. It also was likely to serve an astrological role.



    Temple of the Three Windows

    Erected overlooking the Main Plaza is the Temple of the Three Windows [view]. Unlike the enclosed and exclusive Sun Temple, this structure has three walls, while the fourth is an open space obstructed only by columns to support the roof. Originally built with five windows, two were filled to leave behind the three from which the building's name is derived. A stone located within has steps carved into it representing the three worlds: Ukja Pacha, (" underworld") Kay Pacha ("earth"), and Hanan Pacha ("heaven").

    Machu Picchu is now believed to be a royal estate which was perhaps used during May to August by Inca royalty with 150 building’s and a population of between 500 and 750 who were the site retainers.

    143 skeletons have been recovered; these burials have been discovered mainly in walled-up crevices beneath or adjacent to the large boulders strewn along the edges of the site. Little energy was expended in preparation of the burial chamber which, in most cases, was just an unmodified natural space with a few rocks piled around the body to keep wild animals out. Secondly, most of the goods left with those found buried at Machu Picchu were modest at best; Ironically, Bingham's misreading of Machu Picchu and its importance led some Cuzco scholars and journalists to expect the kinds of rich grave goods known from other Inca sites. When Bingham failed to produce them, he was charged with having stolen all of the gold and silver items for personal gain, accusations that, in part, eventually led him to abandon Peruvian archaeology.
    Many of these skeletons bear the traces of broken bones and bad backs that mark common working folk and there are several types of cranial deformation represented, including types that are not typical of the Cuzco region



    looking at this image i suspect more terracing to be uncovered on the right hand slope


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    Default Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

    Quote Posted by eaglespirit (here)
    Then you get to pay 22 sols for the most harrowing 20 min bus drive along a mostly single lane dirt track at speeds that are quite unsuitable , that’s until the driver meets a bus coming the over way which he then applies the emergency brakes and starts reversing to a passing place.
    The last scene from the film “the Italian job “springs to mind as the bus teeters over the edge of the abyss as the buses pass each other.


    HaHaHa iceni tribe...I experienced those kinds of rides and encounters with other oncoming buses many times while there going through the mountains and many tight switchback turns at high altitudes too : )
    Thanks again!
    LOL yes their were quite a few white knuckle moments on those roads for want of a better word , all good fun though, ive heard you should do something that scares you everyday but some days we had more than one.

    ive loads more photo's to come , tiwanaku , puma punka etc which i hope you will enjoy. soon .

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    Default Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

    Quote Posted by iceni tribe (here)
    ive loads more photo's to come , tiwanaku , puma punka etc which i hope you will enjoy. soon .
    Truly awesome - thanks iceni tribe.

    Where is this location on a map?

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    Default Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

    hello Paul

    The tour i took started at Lima ,drove down to Nazca and then drove back up to Ica ,Paracus and back to Lima , then a flight to Cuzco where you need some time to adjust to the altitude , and then a long drive to the Bolivian border.At Cochabamba we took the Hydrofoil across Lake Titicaca and then drove to La Paz and then onto Tiwanaku ,Puma Punka which is 70km away.
    Lots of traveling ,some of the sites weren't worth the effort and when your going with a big group you can miss out on sites that you did want to visit as we shall see.



    If anyone is thinking about visiting these sites or going with a tour feel free to pm me for honest advice.

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    Default Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

    Sites around the sacred valley that unfortunately i wasn't able to visit.

    Pisaq

    History

    The history of Pisac is not known in great detail. Its date of foundation is not clear, but it does not appear to have been inhabited by any pre-Inca civilisation, which would put its date of foundation at no earlier than 1440. Like the Inca Empire as a whole, it was dismantled by Pizarro and the Conquistadores in the early 1530s. Unlike at Ollantaytambo at the other end of the valley, no major battles were fought here.

    http://h2g2.com/approved_entry/A21141406





    Huge terracing system



    Magnificent stonework with a rounded sun temple encompassing a sacred rock just like Machu Picchu






    More images here

    http://theworldinlight.com/thumbnail...l#.UPQbOmfkr0R


    Moray

    The use for the complex is a topic of debate; a stadium with perfect acoustics that could seat 260,000; a religious complex or an agricultural research station, take your pick my moneys on agriculture, but who in their right mind would undertake such a construction, the bottom of this terracing is 150 meters deep and the sheer volume of material that had to be dug out and carted away defies logic.




    This video gives you some idea of the scale of Moray.



    Tambo machay

    It consists of a series of aqueducts, canals and waterfalls that run through the terraced rocks. The function of the site is uncertain: it may have served as a military outpost guarding the approaches to Cusco, as a spa resort for the Incan political elite, or both.




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    Default Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

    Sillustani (which is on the way to Bolivia from the sacred valley.)

    Sillustani is a pre-Incan burial ground on the shores of Lake Umayo near Puno in Peru. The tombs, which are built above ground in tower-like structures called chullpas, are the vestiges of the Colla people, Aymara who were conquered by the Inca in the 15th century. The structures housed the remains of complete family groups, although they were probably limited to nobility. Many of the tombs have been dynamited by grave robbers, while others were left unfinished.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sillustani





    So family groups were found buried in these chullpas , but that doesn’t necessarily mean they were built for that purpose , some have speculated that these were light houses I personally thought the place looked like an industrial area ,and they could have started off as furnaces.



    This is a very windy site and all of the openings to these chullpas face east which is where the wind always comes from at this site ,also all the blocks appear to have a cavity which may have helped dissipate heat.



    This next image is from inside a chullpa ,which I was hoping to analyse for traces of heat but unfortunately on further research ,the chullpa had been recently rebuilt “restored” .



    Also their looked like a sort of “smelting bowl “which may have been used to collect the melted gold/silver/other.





    Theirs that snake again.



    stone circles



    History

    This region consisted of modern day northwest Bolivia, north and central Chile and northeast Argentina.
    The "land of the Colla" , thanks its name one of the most powerful and vigorous enemies of the Incas: The Colla or Hatun Colla. This was one of the many tribes that had organised themselves in communities after the Tiwanaku culture had faded round 1150 AD. Together with the Lupaca kingdom they had control over more or less the whole region of lake Titicaca.

    Conquest during the reign of Pachacuti

    Inca Pachacutec, who had been victorious over the Cancha tribe and had consolidated the surroundings of Cusco, headed with a large army toward the lake, where he encountered a strong opponent in the leader of the Colla, Chuchi Capac, who had previously been a guest at a wedding in Cusco. The battle was fierce. At a certain point however, Pachacuti, was able to capture Chuchi Capac, which was clearly a breaking point. Soon all the leaders of the Colla were captured. Pachacuti took them to the capital Hatun Colla and demanded that loyalty and obedience of all Chuchi Capac's subjects.
    When this was done and the people had offered enough precious gifts, Pachacuti went back to Cusco, taking the Colla leaders as prisoners. Once back in the capital, it is said that Chuchi Capac was be-headed in the Coricancha and the other captains were put in a prison filled with serpents and toads.The cruel fate of the Colla leaders, made that many other tribes offered their obedience to the Inca.

    Conquest during the reign of Tupac Inca

    One of Pachacuti's sons, Tupac (Topa) Yupanqui, continued to conquer. when he was fighting in Antisuyu, rebellion broke loose in Collasuyu, where a rumour had been spread that the Inca was dead. This news reached Tupac Inca, who decided to teach these rebels a lesson. He left Antisuyu and marched into Colasuyu. Like his father before him, he captured the leaders who's skins are said to have been made into drums. This put a stop to any further Colla rebellion.
    Having tasted victory Tupac Inca moved further south, into Argentina and Chile, conquering every nation on his path, until he was stopped by the Mapuches in the south of Chili.

    http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Places/Place/646662

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    Default Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

    Temple of Wiracocha east of Puno







    The most prominent structure is the Temple of Wiracocha, an enormous rectangular two-story roofed structure that measures 92 metres (302 ft) by 25.5 metres (84 ft).[2] This structure consists of a central adobe wall some 18 to 20 meters in height with an andesite base. Windows and doors allow passage. It is flanked on each side by a row of eleven columns. The foundations measure 4 metres (13 ft) for both the wall and the columns are classic high Inca stonework with the remaining height built of adobe.

    Prior to its destruction by the Spaniards, the temple had what is believed to be the largest single roof in the Incan Empire, having its peak at the central wall, then stretching over the columns and some 25 metres (82 ft) beyond on each side. The huge proportions of the temple and its prominence on the site explain why the whole complex is also sometimes referred to as the Temple of Wiracocha

    This was a site i also missed but looking at the images again we see far superior craftsmanship on the bottom and rubbish adobe brickwork at the top which may suggest two different construction periods.
    The only example of this type of construction i have seen is in Cusco where the plastered adobe brickwork sitting on top of finer stonework has been attributed to the Spanish.

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    Default Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

    Aramu Muru

    7m wide and 7m high and became popular in the 1990’s and also on the ancient alien series as an alleged stargate.





    Local villagers refuse to come close to the doorway/portal. They tell stories about people, and particularly children, disappearing through the solid rock.

    Well that’s what most web sites tell you.



    Notice the local woman with her hand out well that pretty much sums this place up, it’s a tourist trap in the middle of nowhere sculpted by the locals to extract money from passing tourists.

    It took our particular party an hour and a half to get there, then you have to mill about while everyone gets their photo taken and then theirs the return journey. This took so long that we missed out on seeing the fertility temple.

    Fertility temple.

    Chucuito is one of the few ancient sites in the world that is likely to elicit a few giggles. In many ways, you're supposed to giggle when you walk through the walled-off complex covered in row after row of stone phalluses. Especially considering that this supposed ancient fertility clinic may just be a hoax catering to the immaturity of tourists.
    For more than half a century, archeologists and anthropologists have studied Chucuito Temple of Fertility, and have decided, with some debate, that the stones were placed in this order more recently than they were quarried and cut. Scientists even discovered that many of the stones were not originally set straight up, indicating that a perverse opportunist may have had a hand in the temple's creation. Yet the findings of the scientists mean little to locals who work day in and day out to dispel these claims by giving tours of the temple.
    Altogether, there are 86 phallic stones in the temple, and some even stretch to five feet. According to legend, and most tour guides in the city, this temple was frequented by women trying to get pregnant. Under the guidance of a spiritual leader, women would climb aboard the mushroom rocks and be doused in chicha, traditional Peruvian corn beer, which allegedly helped them become pregnant.
    Adding to the confusion created by this legend, the site, which is named Inca Uyo, can be translated two ways. In Quechua, it means field, a perfectly logical translation. But a more modern twist translates the word into penis, which unfortunately fits the other side of the debate similarly well. Although no definitive answer will ever be discovered, the rocks resemblance to male genitalia remains uncanny.

    http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/chucuito

    How Real Is That Ruin? Don't Ask, the Locals Say

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/21/ar...anted=all&_r=0

    this article sums it up nicely and unfortunately this is not the worst example of reconstruction in this area .







    If we ignore what’s inside this temple , the outside construction looks very similar to what we have seen in Cusco.

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    Default Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

    Lake titicaca



    It is often called the highest navigable lake in the world, with a surface elevation of 3,812 m (12,507 ft).Although this refers to navigation by large boats, it's generally considered to mean commercial craft. At least two dozen bodies of water around the world are at higher elevations, but all are much smaller and shallower.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Titicaca





    This boat is a smaller replica of RA11 built by the Limachi family which Norwegian adventurer Thor Heyerdahl used it to sail between Morocco and the Barbados Islands in the Caribbean in 1970. The Ra II is on display at the Kon-Tiki Museum in Oslo.





    Ships built of bullrush reed, known here as totora, have sailed the Pacific, the Atlantic, the Mediterranean, and for a millennia across the Titicaca.k,
    The Limachis and other Aymara native residents of Suriqui Island have built 22 trans-oceanic reed vessels over the past decades, and if funding comes through, will build a ship they hope will sail from New York to Spain in 2014.

    http://www.arabnews.com/bolivia%E2%8...-oceanic-ships

    Boats Ra and Ra II
    Ra II in the Kon-Tiki Museum

    In 1969 and 1970, Heyerdahl built two boats from papyrus and attempted to cross the Atlantic Ocean from Morocco in Africa. Based on drawings and models from ancient Egypt, the first boat, named Ra (after the Egyptian Sun god), was constructed by boat builders from Lake Chad using papyrus reed obtained from Lake Tana in Ethiopia and launched into the Atlantic Ocean from the coast of Morocco. After a number of weeks, Ra took on water after its crew made modifications to the vessel that caused it to sag and break apart. The ship was abandoned and the following year, another similar vessel, Ra II, was built of totora by Demetrio, Juan and Jose Limachi from Lake Titicaca in Bolivia and likewise set sail across the Atlantic from Morocco, this time with great success. The boat reached Barbados, thus demonstrating that mariners could have dealt with trans-Atlantic voyages by sailing with the Canary Current.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_Heyerdahl





    The floating reed islands of the Uros which are maintained by adding fresh reeds to the surface even as the ones on the bottom decompose.

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    Default Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

    Island of the sun



    According to Incan lore, after a great flood, the god Viracocha arose from Lake Titicaca to create the world. He commanded the sun (Inti), moon (Mama Kilya) and stars to rise, then went to Tiahuanaco to create the first human beings, Mallku Kapac and Mama Ocllo. These first humans, the "Inca Adam and Eve," were formed from stone and brought to life by Viracocha, who commanded them to go out and populate the world. Thus Lake Titicaca is the birthplace of the Incas, whose spirits return to their origin in the lake upon death.

    http://www.sacred-destinations.com/b.../lake-titicaca

    To get to this island we had to swap boats in a 4ft swell , timing was everything and how we all made it without breaking any bones or ending up in the water was nothing short of a miracle.
    Personally I was expecting to see a magnificent temple here, but all I found was mediocre ruins and a “alter”.





    Rather than stay at this spot playing with dowsing rods a couple of us trekked around the island in search of this temple but to no avail.



    This image is from 1830



    Same structure ?

    Island of the moon

    The Island of the Moon (Isla de la Luna) is the legendary home of the Inca goddess Mama Quila. The structures on this island were originally built by the pre-Incan Aymara culture, but the Incas left their mark on the architecture as well (such as the typical trapezoidal doors). During Inca times, the Isla de la Luna housed chosen women known as the "Virgins of the Sun," who lived a nun-like lifestyle.



    This has all been reconstructed



    The local guide walked straight past this fragmented wall oblivious to its skilful construction.

    Under lake Titicaca

    Posted Wednesday, 23 August, 2000, Ancient temple found under Lake Titicaca

    The ruins of an ancient temple have been found by international archaeologists under Lake Titicaca, the world's highest lake. A terrace for crops, a long road and an 800-metre (2,600 feet) long wall was also found under the waters of the lake, sited in the Andes mountains between Bolivia and Peru. Dating back 1,000 to 1,500 years ago, the ruins are pre-Incan. They have been attributed to the indigenous Tiwanaku or Tiahuanaco people, said Lorenzo Epis, the Italian scientist leading the Atahuallpa 2000 scientific expedition. The holy temple measures 200m by 50m (660ft by 160ft) almost twice the size of an average football pitch.
    More than 200 dives were made into the lake, to depths of as much as 30m (100ft), to record the ruins on film. The explorers found the temple after following a submerged road, in an area of the lake not far from Copacabana town.
    The complete findings of the 30-member team, backed by the scientific group Akakor Geographical Exploring, are to be published in November.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/892616.stm





    How anyone can stamp a date on this structure 30 metres under the lake is beyond me , maybe because of the head of this statue is similar to heads found in the sunken temple at Tiwanaku or have they found pottery they can put in a time period ,who knows I can’t seem to find any details of this expedition or the publish report that allegedly came out in November 2002.
    I would also like to add that the statue recovered may have come from a boats cargo or more worryingly been deliberately placed there.

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