The Negative Space

[Freed Fox]

There are many kinds of sadness, and many forms of suffering. Sometimes we can exorcise these demons through their candid discussion. That is the intent of this thread.

I try not to inundate the boards with new threads when the topic being addressed can better be accomplished in an already existing thread. I also try to provide something for everyone, and not be too self-indulgent. The intention here stuck me as sufficiently broad. A place to air grievances.

I've seen much discussion of the emotional body, and an acknowledgement that emotions are typically one of two types; those with an identifiable or tangible cause, and those that seem to arise out of nowhere. Further it's been implied that these 'causeless' emotions arise from lack of control over ones E-body.

I believe there is a third type; that which is essentially systemic to the individual. Typically born of multiple causes or issues which are fundamental to one's reality, even if these causes are individually identifiable.

I don't enjoy dwelling upon the negative, and when it is necessary I typically do so in private. As I stated before, though, I do think that the communicative process can be very helpful at times, as I want it to be for any members here who might be encountering difficulty. I don't want this thread to become a source of additional negativity, however, or a pissing match about who's got it worse. We should all be aware that everyone has problems in life and encounter unique challenges of our own along the way. And out of respect for the forum rules, no one here is ultimately liable for anyone else. I acknowledge that no one is responsible for my thoughts or actions but me.


On my end of things, I've been trying to process a sense of powerlessness, if not even defeat. The proverbial winds have been taken from under my sails. I admit, this is a familiar place, but with the progress that I thought I'd made since then, I did not expect it to be so strong.

I don't know if it's ironic or not, but I feel that one of the root causes stems from my quest for higher truths. This forum has been a veritable gold mine, and has lead me to other places which have contributed greatly to my continuing knowledge and broadening awareness. The phrase, "the more you know, the more you realize you don't know," has certainly come to mind. Even still there are pages of reading that I intend to do, and although I may not hit "thanks" in every case I feel I owe you all, even those who I may disagree with.

I recently listened to an interview with George Kavassilas in which he described many of the new age movements as an intentional misguidance of the human spirit, en masse. For those who are curious, here is the link: https://youtube.com/watch?v=TZL5Yc3G7H8

Although I am not taking his account to be absolute fact, it did seem to correspond with other paradigms I have read of which I can't entirely refute.

I thought of all the people there are, and have been, and particularly the people here; if so many wise and insightful people can be deceived by ordinary means, what chance can I possibly stand? To avoid being tricked, avoid being trapped... One of the worst remaining fears I have is one I fundamentally can't conquer. I believe in reincarnation but I am terrified that I'm bound to keep coming back here. Even once more feels like more than I can bare. So it becomes absolutely imperative that I get it done this time, no mistakes.

There's simply no way I can assure myself that I will.

Self doubt is my greatest enemy, I think. It always has been. I am all too aware, unfortunately, that the only person who can fix that fault is me.

[westhill]

Posted by Freed Fox (here)
One of the worst remaining fears I have is one I fundamentally can't conquer. I believe in reincarnation but I am terrified that I'm bound to keep coming back here. Even once more feels like more than I can bare. So it becomes absolutely imperative that I get it done this time, no mistakes.

There's simply no way I can assure myself that I will.

Self doubt is my greatest enemy, I think. It always has been. I am all too aware, unfortunately, that the only person who can fix that fault is me.

I've been thinking about doubt and I think it's healthy. Trying to get rid of it is where it becomes a problem.
It's when we stop exploring our doubts is when we are in trouble. So I've made an alliance with it. In a world
where so much is hidden, doubt has become a guide. I'll take it over certainty (which is has its own problems)
any day.

I get the not wanting to come back. I believe that's why the earth is so beautiful, to help us get through all
the difficulties. Even so I get tired. And mistakes are inevitable, if ending reincarnation depends on a perfectly
lived life, we are all screwed. Much more subtle than being correct.

[Wind]

Posted by Freed Fox (here)
I believe in reincarnation but I am terrified that I'm bound to keep coming back here. Even once more feels like more than I can bare. So it becomes absolutely imperative that I get it done this time, no mistakes.

There's simply no way I can assure myself that I will.

Self doubt is my greatest enemy, I think. It always has been. I am all too aware, unfortunately, that the only person who can fix that fault is me.

Welcome the club. I have always been my greatest enemy. I too am too aware, my conscious mind still controls me too much. I'm just starting to learn who I really even am. What ever I do never really satisfies me enough, because I just don't trust and respect myself enough. I always have wanted to help those that are weaker than me, but I'm hardly able to keep myself in balance from time to time. I am too sensitive and emotional. Is it a blessing or a curse?

If I'm totally honest I have never wanted to be here, but for some reason I chose to be here right now so there is no one else to blame than me. Learning through suffering has been my journey and it still is. I suppose that pressure makes diamonds.

[OOO]

Every time I hear 'negative space' my drawing classes come to mind. In art the negative space is just as important as the postive. It actually helps define the object you are trying to see, yet its own shape is usually abstract and its just background. Hmmmm....

[Freed Fox]

westhill; I see what you mean, but I have a hard time seeing doubt in such a light, as for me it has been more of a limitation than a voice of caution/discernment.

StarSeed; thank you for your honesty, these are difficult things to admit. I certainly hope you're right about the diamonds...

All the best

[westhill]

Posted by Freed Fox (here)
westhill; I see what you mean, but I have a hard time seeing doubt in such a light, as for me it has been more of a limitation than a voice of caution/discernment.

StarSeed; thank you for your honesty, these are difficult things to admit. I certainly hope you're right about the diamonds...

All the best

Turning an adversary into an ally isn't much different than turning coal into diamonds.
Time and pressure, the great transformers.

[Jenci]

Posted by Freed Fox (here)

On my end of things, I've been trying to process a sense of powerlessness, if not even defeat. The proverbial winds have been taken from under my sails. I admit, this is a familiar place, but with the progress that I thought I'd made since then, I did not expect it to be so strong.

I don't know if it's ironic or not, but I feel that one of the root causes stems from my quest for higher truths.

The higher truth that you are questing for is realisation that there is no individual "you" doing anything. To the individual person this does manifest as a feeling of powerlessness so this is not surprising to me that the sensation is getting
stronger.

It is the resistance to the powerlessness which gets in the way of progress.

Posted by Freed Fox
I thought of all the people there are, and have been, and particularly the people here; if so many wise and insightful people can be deceived by ordinary means, what chance can I possibly stand? To avoid being tricked, avoid being trapped... One of the worst remaining fears I have is one I fundamentally can't conquer. I believe in reincarnation but I am terrified that I'm bound to keep coming back here. Even once more feels like more than I can bare. So it becomes absolutely imperative that I get it done this time, no mistakes.

This feeling of being weary with the life/lives/recincarnations is also part of the process but in terms of the higher truth that you seek, there is no reincarnation.

To the individual person there appears to be birth, death, reincarnation, birth, death etc.

But the absolute truth is that you are eternal, unchanging, birthless, deathless and you are unaffected by any of these events which appear to be happening to you as the individual person.

When the absolute truth is realised the idea of reincarnations becomes irrelevant so the need to somehow get things right to prevent another life here, really is just a distraction away from the truth you seek. It's like a character in a dream trying to change the dream. Better to focus attention elsewhere and realise that you are not the character, nor are you affected by the dream and wake up from the dream.

Lots of people get tricked in terms of spirituality because there are lots of people talking about all sorts of phenomena. It can be very interesting but it focuses attention on everything which is changing and transient.....which is everything you are not.

Breakthrough in realisation terms happens when attention gets directed to the absolute, unchanging truth of what you are. My advice is seek out those you keep your attention directed that way and discard those who direct attention onto the changing and transient.


Jeanette

[Finefeather]

Posted by Jenci (here)

Posted by Freed Fox (here)

On my end of things, I've been trying to process a sense of powerlessness, if not even defeat. The proverbial winds have been taken from under my sails. I admit, this is a familiar place, but with the progress that I thought I'd made since then, I did not expect it to be so strong.

I don't know if it's ironic or not, but I feel that one of the root causes stems from my quest for higher truths.

The higher truth that you are questing for is realisation that there is no individual "you" doing anything. To the individual person this does manifest as a feeling of powerlessness so this is not surprising to me that the sensation is getting
stronger.

It is the resistance to the powerlessness which gets in the way of progress.

Posted by Freed Fox
I thought of all the people there are, and have been, and particularly the people here; if so many wise and insightful people can be deceived by ordinary means, what chance can I possibly stand? To avoid being tricked, avoid being trapped... One of the worst remaining fears I have is one I fundamentally can't conquer. I believe in reincarnation but I am terrified that I'm bound to keep coming back here. Even once more feels like more than I can bare. So it becomes absolutely imperative that I get it done this time, no mistakes.

This feeling of being weary with the life/lives/recincarnations is also part of the process but in terms of the higher truth that you seek, there is no reincarnation.

To the individual person there appears to be birth, death, reincarnation, birth, death etc.

But the absolute truth is that you are eternal, unchanging, birthless, deathless and you are unaffected by any of these events which appear to be happening to you as the individual person.

When the absolute truth is realised the idea of reincarnations becomes irrelevant so the need to somehow get things right to prevent another life here, really is just a distraction away from the truth you seek. It's like a character in a dream trying to change the dream. Better to focus attention elsewhere and realise that you are not the character, nor are you affected by the dream and wake up from the dream.

Lots of people get tricked in terms of spirituality because there are lots of people talking about all sorts of phenomena. It can be very interesting but it focuses attention on everything which is changing and transient.....which is everything you are not.

Breakthrough in realisation terms happens when attention gets directed to the absolute, unchanging truth of what you are. My advice is seek out those you keep your attention directed that way and discard those who direct attention onto the changing and transient.


Jeanette

Hi Jeanette
Excellent post...thank you so much.
It is the fight which we need to stop...the fight between higher mind and the lower mind...the lower mind is the one which thinks it is all there is, and it needs to surrender to find peace within.
With peace comes the quiet into which truth and love can gather and fill our hearts. The higher mind does not think...it just is...and knows what it is...
Love
Ray

[lookbeyond]

Jenci and or Finefeather, if you dont mind would you pls explain a little more re the no reincarnation concept.I understand spirit is eternal and continuous and that living from the heart is the way to live but would you pls elaborate?-there is so much info to process on Avalon.

Thanks in anticipation, lookbeyond

[Finefeather]

Posted by lookbeyond (here)
Jenci and or Finefeather, if you dont mind would you pls explain a little more re the no reincarnation concept.I understand spirit is eternal and continuous and that living from the heart is the way to live but would you pls elaborate?-there is so much info to process on Avalon.

Thanks in anticipation, lookbeyond

Hi lookbeyond
Reincarnation is actually done from the causal level of our Being.
We, our true Self or Monad or Spirit is many steps away from the individual personality which appears on the 3D plane...in fact...there is normally very little of the true You or Self that is able to manifest on the 3D plane because of the great difference in vibration...so only a tiny portion is evident on the 3D plane, there is more of it on the emotional plane and still more on the mental plane...and each of these planes have grades of matter which respond to higher or lower thinking. By the time it gets to the 3D plane the lower mind has taken over completely and this is the personality which we present as our individualised Self. Most people are not even aware of this tiny portion of the true Self and our goal is to work on our attitudes and understanding to build a better link between our higher bodies and our personality.
To give you a rough idea of our constitution here are the levels which we operate in, in our Solar system...starting from the highest...and to make it even more daunting we need to understand that the 7 levels which we operate in are ONLY in the LAST level of the Cosmic Universe...this should indicate to us just how very small we are in the overhaul scheme...and each of these levels have sub levels as well!
Anybody who does serious out of body work can verify these levels depending on your overall level of awareness and the level to which you have achieved enlightenment, or, the level at which you have increased your ability to master the higher states of matter. The levels or realms are exactly the same as when water turns into steam and then dissipates into the air. All the realms are in and around us and extend up to and beyond our Solar System.

================================================
1st plane: Solar Monad (Monad means..a ONE that stands alone, we are all derived from, and are in our own rights a Monad and this is the primary link to our Oneness with All) direct from the Logos of our Solar System...who is the creator of us all...if you are from this system...this is our roots.
================================================
2nd plane: Individualised Monads...billions of them...individual parts of the 7 sub Solar Monads of the Logos of our System. From this level everything that exists in our Solar System is created with the help of the material Devas...from minerals to plants to animals to humans to super humans.
==================================================
3rd plane,4th plane, and 1st sub level of the 5th plane: This is where our Higher Self is, it spans 3 major planes or levels because each level is the home of the 3 primary qualities in us...they are...Will Power...Wisdom and Intelligence(Higher Mind). This is our immortal Higher Self
=================================================
2nd sub level of Mind of the 5th plane: is a gap between the Higher Self and the Causal body...we need to bridge this gap from the bottom...it is the lowest point in matter which a Higher Self can operate in fully.
=================================================
3rd sub level of Mind of the 5th plane: is our Causal Body...or Divine Ego...this is the part of us which controls and determines our incarnations...it is also the higher memory where we have stored all of our experiences of our many lives...it is aware of all our desires and shortcomings as well as our beauty...it is mortal...it will one day cease to exist when we are complete with our incarnations and have ascended from 3D incarnations. This is the real meaning of ascension. Once we have achieved this ascension we still retain the permanent atoms, which have been created to incarnate, to allow us to re enter the lower realms for service or other reasons.
==================================================
4th, 5th, 6th and 7th sub level of Mind of the 5th plane: This is our lower mind of our consciousness...also known as the little ego because of it's often negative attitudes. This is the mind we use each day to make our decision etc. This aspect is mortal and will cease to exist some time after physical death.
==================================================
6th plane: Emotional Body – This body is mortal and will cease to exist some time after physical death.
==================================================
7th plane: Physical Body - This body is mortal and will cease to exist after physical death.
==================================================

So from this we can see that the Causal Body does the reincarnating, although we should not think that the Higher Self is not involved here because it is always present...it is just the amount of the Higher self which varies in each person depending on the bridge we have built between the Personality and the Causal Body and to the Higher Self.


Hope this helps...there is a lot more to this, so do not imagine it is as simple as I have made it appear.

Love
Ray

[lookbeyond]

Thanks so much Ray-love lookbeyond

[markpierre]

Posted by Freed Fox (here)

I am terrified that I'm bound to keep coming back here. Even once more feels like more than I can bare. So it becomes absolutely imperative that I get it done this time, no mistakes.

There's simply no way I can assure myself that I will.

********

Self doubt is my greatest enemy, I think. It always has been. I am all too aware, unfortunately, that the only person who can fix that fault is me.

God I've had that thought so many times. It could have been my mantra. That's what powers the train out of here friend. I can't not appreciate that you're in it.
I get in it too. A real true fair dinkum dark night of the soul, makes depression look silly. Then there really is no you. Because 'you' depended on
associating with things out there that had meaning. You may be getting to that. There is no meaning. Can't find it because it was all a fraud.
I don't think you'd have to do that, if you don't quite let go of the grief you feel at the lack of anything true in the world. You're feeling it. Not deflecting it.
Everyone else is numbing it out with their heads. Their real hearts should be breaking. That's what Armageddon is; when the heart finally just bursts.
Just look at it and love your own passion, and appreciate yourself for it. There's a bit of God in that. When it becomes joy, it'll be obvious.

You have nothing whatever in the universe to worry about, but I hope you don't let that stop you.

[Jenci]

Posted by lookbeyond (here)
Jenci and or Finefeather, if you dont mind would you pls explain a little more re the no reincarnation concept.I understand spirit is eternal and continuous and that living from the heart is the way to live but would you pls elaborate?-there is so much info to process on Avalon.

Thanks in anticipation, lookbeyond

Hi Lookbeyond

To the vast majority of people reality is the human body that they exist as and the world around them. They are born and they die and in between they live their life as if it is real because it appears real to them, so they have no need to question it.

Then there are people who become aware of the fact that they are much more and that the body they are inhabiting is just a vehicle for this lifetime only. After the body dies, they will go on in another form, living another life reincarnated.

To this group of people the reality of life that the first group experience is very different. Getting to this point of realising that you are an eternal being, not affected by the death of your physical body is not the absolute Truth though.

At this stage of becoming aware of reincarnation there is still an “individual” present having the experience.

It may not be an individual person in the sense that it is limited to a 3D physical body (like the first group of people would believe) but it is still an individual being or soul with its own unique characteristics which says "this is me", "this is my experience", "this is my life" or "this is my reincarnation". Or to put another way "It's me and mine and not yours and I can differentiate me from you and mine from yours".

The absolute Truth is that there are no individual and when that is realised what used to be considered reality makes another shift and it is seen for the illusion it is.

This is not something which can be understood with the individual mind because its outside of its comprehension/ language, which is why spiritual practice is to go beyond the mind. It is something which needs to be experienced to be understood.

Getting to that realisation is not easy. The irony of this is, that the human experience is the purpose of this life for the individual. It’s not about realising that you are the One because that is what you already are, so the absolute Truth will be hidden very well behind the veil of illusion of the individual perspective.

Having said that, some people, this lifetime, will be dissatisfied with the human experience and find themselves craving the deeper Truth. We could say that they are on the journey home and nothing short of that absolute realisation will satisfy them.

Although the absolute Truth is hidden very well from the individual there is much that can be done to break through that veil of individual illusion and reveal what is beyond it but really what it boils down to is attention and where it is directed; it needs to be directed towards the absolute not towards the individual.

What we have in the spiritual community is that a lot of people are "teaching" by directing their followers’ attention on the individual mind and all the phenomena that interests the individual. It may be a very interesting experience and lead to the person gaining some very useful knowledge and having a fulfilling life but it will not lead them towards the absolute Truth.

That’s not a problem in itself, after all we are not here in this life for enlightenment, we are here to have a human experience and the richness, the knowledge, the diversity, fascination and interest are all part of that.

The problem comes when the “teachers” sell what they are teaching as the absolute Truth. This is where it is misleading for those few who feel compelled to seek something beyond all the fascinating phenomena that this life has to offer.

So is it is question for the individual – what do you really want? Enlightenment is the state where the individual person has disappeared and their perspective (outlook - how they perceieve everything) has shifted to the One and it is permanent. In that shift, ideas about the individual person, their life and their reincarnations no longer exist in reality.


Jeanette

[greybeard]

To throw some confusion (mine) into it.

Truth is--form and formless both and neither, yet not knowable in human terms.

I have noticed that briefly Adyashanti and Eckhart Tolle said than during the awakening process they were aware of past lives--both also said that they did not want to give you that belief system.
David Hawkins was more in depth on past lives.
However all say the ego is identification with the me story---- that does not mean to say that the story is not "true" ie happened/ happening,
The story is impersonal.
Past lives give karma to this present life--- flip flop--one life incurs karma--next undoing.
There is only one life time in reality.
The moment enlightenment occurs there is the realisation that there never was an individual person to incur karma.
The story however is karma---non identification with the story then karma is non existent.

When the freedom from the me concept happens then no return visits here.

Not saying what I have witten is true because being a point of view it is a concept and thus has no real validity.

"Those thoughts" are easy to get rid of-- the moment hey become "my thoughts" thats different--then they become precious as mine I--own them.
What is this me that claims ownership?
Same with past lives.

Chris

[Fred Steeves]

Posted by Freed Fox (here)
I thought of all the people there are, and have been, and particularly the people here; if so many wise and insightful people can be deceived by ordinary means, what chance can I possibly stand? To avoid being tricked, avoid being trapped...

You stand as good a chance as anyone else Freed Fox, and I do mean anybody. "Know Thyself" is more than just an old saying, as far as I'm concerned it's the answer, short and sweet. The more you know yourself, warts and all, the less easily you will be tricked or trapped.

Like someone a long time ago told me: "Keep It Simple Stupid".

Cheers,
Fred

[greybeard]

I think in fairness to teachers they have to met you where you stand-- though there are little clues in most teachings but if they come right out and say

"Only God is and you are That---you dreamed it all up there is nothing outside of you. You are One without a second. There never was anyone to do anything to you. (Thats an Eckhart Tolle quote)

Then that's end of story if you get it-- however most will say I dont get it.
So more information is given.
Sometimes its necessary to hear the same thing over and over again.
True of me as its still work in progress.

Adyashanti said on the cd "The End of your world--the dawn of awakening."
"You will look at your feet and say I (as a body/ me) exists, I will say no you dont," or words to that effect.
It all seems so real but then again a good wll acted film can bring out all kinds of "real" feelings within one.

Its a question of ending the dream of a separate self. Personal implies separation--duality

Chris

[lookbeyond]

Thankyou for responses- i wonder is it really possible to function as an enlightened being in this world, with the business of everyday life, dramas of raising children, baggage of karma- i wonder if it comes down to choosing an incarnation in advance such that it is the circumstances in that lifetime that make it possible to become enlightened and actually live that way permanently- not just have fleeting moments of- or are those moments enough to stop you coming back for more experience?

Any responses appreciated, lookbeyond

[greybeard]

Posted by lookbeyond (here)
Thankyou for responses- i wonder is it really possible to function as an enlightened being in this world, with the business of everyday life, dramas of raising children, baggage of karma- i wonder if it comes down to choosing an incarnation in advance such that it is the circumstances in that lifetime that make it possible to become enlightened and actually live that way permanently- not just have fleeting moments of- or are those moments enough to stop you coming back for more experience?

Any responses appreciated, lookbeyond

The late Dr David Hawkins recommended telling your nearest and dearest when you get really serious about enlightenment so that they know what’s happening if you start disappearing into states of bliss.
He had the biggest Psychiatric practice in America at that time of his initial awakening but it soon became obvious to him that he ould not continue and left all behind. He went to Sedona and spent quite a lot of years virtually on his own meditating hours a day as the state matured.
It was thirty years before he could attempt to language the state of enlightenment.
Eckhart Tolle continued work for a short period then spent two years just sitting on a park bench in London.

Some seem able just to continue as before.---chopping wood and fetching water is the traditional description of pre and after the state materialises.

None of my relatives knows what's happening with me but two close friends do.
The Kundalini energy has been working on my body for about 20years--im now almost predominantly right brained---detail escapes me but essence I get quickly content no--context yes. Spelling grammar---no. Sentences in complete--speaking or writing.
Focus peripheral rather than sharp.
Logic no longer linear --that creates problems--- I can jump mid sentence to something else that seems to me relevant but to my surprise others dont get the jump.
Now If I hadent read about the process that naturally occurs I would be worried that I was loosing it.
Books or cds appear after a process has started that confirm that this is part of a process--different for all but there are similarities.
I find it difficult to be annoyed at people yet im not that patient.
Past situations come up automatically from childhood and teens for me to look at--- could I have handled differently and if I had where would I be now etc.--not that that matters.

Hope thats helpful.

Chris

[Jenci]

Posted by lookbeyond (here)
Thankyou for responses- i wonder is it really possible to function as an enlightened being in this world, with the business of everyday life, dramas of raising children, baggage of karma- i wonder if it comes down to choosing an incarnation in advance such that it is the circumstances in that lifetime that make it possible to become enlightened and actually live that way permanently- not just have fleeting moments of- or are those moments enough to stop you coming back for more experience?

Any responses appreciated, lookbeyond

I say that the higher aspect of our individual self chooses everything about our incarnation. Human life is about experience and from that higher self aspect everything about our experience is perfect for us even though we may as the person here in 3D find our life quite unbearable.

I know for me that when I became aware of this, the struggle I had with life, reduced. It's made it easier to face each life situation directly and experience it to the full, however physically or emotionally painful and difficult it is. In fact if I find myself resisting what is occurring then it's a signal that I need to do some work to investigate what is going on with me.


It's very rare for enlightenment to happen instantaneously but it did happen to Eckhart Tolle like that and he sat on a park bench for a couple of years as he found it difficult to function in the world. Generally it happens over a period of years. It's a process of the layers of the illusion of the individual falling away gradually as the realisation gets embodied. When it happens like this it is very ordinary and life goes on as normal. You know the saying before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.


Jeanette

[Freed Fox]

Posted by Jenci (here)

The absolute Truth is that there are no individual and when that is realised what used to be considered reality makes another shift and it is seen for the illusion it is.

[...]

The problem comes when the “teachers” sell what they are teaching as the absolute Truth. This is where it is misleading for those few who feel compelled to seek something beyond all the fascinating phenomena that this life has to offer.

Careful...