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    Australia Avalon Member realitycorrodes's Avatar
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    Default Dalai Lama is a hypocrite when it comes to eating meat!

    http://www.all-creatures.org/letters/20070615-np.html

    The Mary T. and
    Frank L. Hoffman
    Family Foundation
    and All-Creatures.Org

    Letters and Responses

    An Open Letter from Norm Phelps to the Dalai Lama - 15 Jun 2007

    An Open Letter to the Dalai Lama

    June 15, 2007

    The Dalai Lama
    Thekchen Choeling
    P.O. McLeod Ganj
    Dharamsala H.P. 176219
    India

    By mail and email to: ohhdl@gov.tibet.net

    Dear Sir: I am writing to you with great sadness.

    By way of introduction, or actually re-introduction, I am the author of The Great Compassion: Buddhism and Animal Rights, a copy of which I sent you soon after it came out in 2004, and an additional copy of which I am enclosing with the hard copy of this letter. I have been a practicing Tibetan Buddhist for more than twenty years.

    You may also recall that in November 1998 you generously granted me a private audience in Washington, D.C. for the purpose of discussing a vegetarian diet as Buddhist practice. You were very gracious in providing me an opportunity to urge you to adopt a vegetarian diet on full-time basis. You told me that because of liver damage resulting from hepatitis B, your doctors had instructed you to eat meat, and that for some years you had compromised by eating vegetarian every other day. You spoke movingly of your deep compassion for animals and your desire that as many people as possible, including Tibetans and Buddhists, adopt a vegetarian diet as an expression of Buddhist compassion for all sentient beings.

    Less than three weeks after this interview, Agence France Presse (AFP) reported that at a dinner at the Elysee Palace for Nobel Peace Prize laureates, you refused the vegetarian meal that you had been served with the comment, “I’m a Tibetan monk, not a vegetarian,” and insisted on being served the same entrée that the other guests were having, which was reported to be braised calf’s cheek and vol-au-vent stuffed with shrimp. I understood that the dinner might have been held on a meat-eating day of your one-day-meat, one-day-veggies regime, but I could not understand why you would publicly go out of your way to dissociate yourself from a compassionate vegetarian diet when just days earlier you had spoken to me with such apparent conviction about the need for “everyone who can” to become vegetarian. There were no reporters present at the dinner; the AFP reporter heard the story from you the next day, which suggests that you wanted the world to know that you were not vegetarian. In other words, quite inexplicably, you apparently wanted to promote meat eating as consistent with Buddhist practice. I wrote you asking about this, but received no response.

    In light of this background, I was overjoyed to read in April 2005 that you had announced to a wildlife conference in New Delhi that you had lately adopted a vegetarian diet on a full-time basis. On February 16, 2007, Rinchen Dhondrup wrote a thank-you letter on your official letterhead to Ms. Dulce Clements of La Verne, California, who had sent you a copy of a wonderful book on vegetarianism as spiritual practice, The World Peace Diet by Will Tuttle, Ph.D. In this letter, Dhondrup-la said that “His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s kitchen here in Dharamsala is now vegetarian.”

    Thus, as you may imagine, I was greatly dismayed to read an article from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel dated May 15, 2007, reporting that you had attended a fund-raising luncheon on May 3, in Madison, Wisconsin for the Deer Park Buddhist Center and Monastery. According to the article, the food served included veal roast, stuffed pheasant breast, and soup made with chicken stock. The chef told the reporter that you “chowed down” on everything you were served, including the veal. Veal calves are separated from their mothers just hours after birth, confined in tiny crates too small for them to turn around in, fed an iron deficient diet that gives them severe, painful, chronic anemia, and killed while they are still small children. When you ate the veal, you lent your public support to some of the most egregious cruelty that our society is capable of.

    Someone who attended a public talk that you gave in Madison around this time reports that you mentioned the vegetarian issue, saying that you had been vegetarian for two years “because the big monasteries are becoming vegetarian,” but that you had gone back to meat eating because of your health. I presume that the two years were spring, 2005 to spring, 2007. I would have expected you, as a great bodhisattva, to follow a vegetarian diet because it is the compassionate thing to do and was taught by the Lord Buddha Shakyamuni, not because it is the popular thing to do in the context of monastic politics.

    Even more recently, it has been reported in the world press that on June 13, 2007 you visited a zoo created by the late television performer Steve Irwin in Beerwah, Australia. During this visit you reportedly spoke in support of a compassionate vegetarian diet while admitting that you eat meat “occasionally” for the sake of your health.

    It is hard to understand how eating meat “occasionally” could benefit your health. It would seem reasonable that if your body did, in fact, require meat—which seems most unlikely—you would have to consume meat more often than “occasionally” for it to have any health effect.. And since it is easy in India and the West to eat a nutritious, high-protein diet without meat, perhaps supplemented by vitamin B12 tablets, I cannot help suspecting that this is more a question of appetite and custom than health.

    It is also hard to understand why you would lend your support to a zoo, which is, after all, a prison in which animals innocent of causing any harm are incarcerated far from their natural surroundings to live out their lives in bleak, barren deprivation and hopelessness. It is especially difficult to understand why you would visit a zoo dedicated to the memory of Steve Irwin, who was world-famous for teasing and tormenting animals for the sake of television ratings, worldly fame, and money.

    The lack of consistency between your public statements in support of vegetarianism and animal protection on the one hand and your personal behavior on the other is troubling, to say the least. I am afraid that it is now taken for granted in much of the Western animal protection community that you are a hypocrite who tells his audience what he believes they want to hear and then does whatever he wants to. Your moral inconsistency toward nonhuman animals has even given rise to a website called Bad Karma Lama, www.badkarmalama.com. I have no idea who created the site, but it reflects a view that is very widely held—and, I fear, with good reason. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot be seen as a protector of nonhuman animals and continue to eat meat and visit zoos. You cannot respect the Buddha nature of animals in your speech and continue to disrespect it in your conduct. That is, in fact, hypocrisy.

    In The Great Compassion, I said that “Buddhism ought to be an animal rights religion par excellence” because of the Buddhadharma’s recognition that there is no intrinsic difference between humans and other animals and its insistence that the First Precept (“Do not kill.”) applies to our treatment of animals as well as our treatment of human beings. If Buddhism does not in actual practice always extend the full measure of its compassionate protection to animals, that is a failure of individual Buddhists, including I am afraid, far too many teachers; it is a violation of the teachings, not a consequence of them. The world sees you as the living embodiment of the Buddhadharma, and even those who are not Buddhist see you as a great moral leader. “Actions speak louder than words,” and when you eat meat, the public, Buddhist and non-Buddhist alike, takes that as proof that inflicting unspeakable suffering and premature death on sentient beings for the sake of appetite is morally acceptable. In that way, you contribute to the killing of the forty-eight billion land animals and uncounted billions of aquatic animals who are slaughtered every year for food.

    After more than two decades of waiting for you to bring your personal regime into line with your public pronouncements—and the clear teachings of the Lord Buddha Shakyamuni in the Mahayana Scriptures—I have reluctantly concluded that you do, in fact, speak in soothing platitudes to people like me while continuing to eat the flesh of murdered mother beings, and that you have no intention of changing. I remain a firm practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism—you have broken my heart, but not my faith—but I no longer consider myself a follower of the Dalai Lama; and I will not consider myself one until your actions toward sentient beings in the animal realm reflect your teaching.

    I have reached this decision only after much soul-searching and with great reluctance. I am not going to ask you to change your behavior. I’ve been there, done that. We have a saying in America that “Anybody can talk the talk. What matters is do you walk the walk.” You can talk the talk with the best of them. But after twenty years, I can no longer pretend that everything is fine while I wait for you to walk the walk

    Sincerely yours,

    /s/ Norm Phelps
    n.phelps@myactv.net
    P. O. Box 776
    Funkstown, MD 21734, USA

    cc: Office of Tibet, New York

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    Default Re: Dalai Lama is a hypocrite when it comes to eating meat!

    Hey mate,

    That´s religion...I´m not surprised at all.

    I´m yet to see a religious leader that is not a hypocrite.

    That´s one of the reasons I don´t follow anyone, or any religious dogma.

    There´s a lot of good talkers out there, but just a few walkers.

    Raf.

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    Default Re: Dalai Lama is a hypocrite when it comes to eating meat!

    There are indeed only a few doing the walking....lol

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    Default Re: Dalai Lama is a hypocrite when it comes to eating meat!

    Those who walk the way do show the way. Those who talk the way are just trying or faking.

    As for being vegan. As an ideology of compassion it is not holding water. As a healthier way of leaving absolute proof.
    That point taken, some people do need to consume fat and protein from animal to sustain their life, especially raw flesh.

    The letter above is an example for a fanatic measuring others for his standards of fanaticisms.
    I wish to remind all the essence of Buddhism is to reduce suffering.
    We are playing a virtual reality game, of duality. In the game of choices, align your choices with your ideals. Everything is whole, complete and perfect. Even yourself. Love is the power to change/create.

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    Default Re: Dalai Lama is a hypocrite when it comes to eating meat!

    Quote Posted by PathWalker (here)
    Those who walk the way do show the way. Those who talk the way are just trying or faking.

    As for being vegan. As an ideology of compassion it is not holding water. As a healthier way of leaving absolute proof.
    That point taken, some people do need to consume fat and protein from animal to sustain their life, especially raw flesh.

    The letter above is an example for a fanatic measuring others for his standards of fanaticisms.
    I wish to remind all the essence of Buddhism is to reduce suffering.
    Hey mate,

    This isn´t about the vegan vs meat eating debate.

    This is about the Dalai Lama himself not following the teachings of Buddhism, not following his own teachings...

    This is serious, but nothing I haven´t seen before.

    Pick any religious leader, investigate him, and you´ll see the contradictions...They´re everywhere.

    Religion itself is a big contradiction, in my opinion.

    Raf.

    Ps: This doesn´t invalidate the teachings of Buddhism, of course, which are mostly very nice.
    Last edited by RMorgan; 11th January 2013 at 00:42.

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    Default Re: Dalai Lama is a hypocrite when it comes to eating meat!

    he's not a hypocrite. he's simply evolved, changed his mind.

    if he continued to preach strict vegetarianism, you might have a point. but he's quite vocal about eating meat, not just "occasionally", but usually 2 times a week.

    why? he had several health issues, one being hepatitis, and under instructions from his doctor began consuming meat. it's no coincidence that his health returned with the introduction of meat to his diet. some people require meat to be healthy; he's one of them. so am i. some don't need meat to be healthy and vibrant; you sound like like you fit into this category.

    i don't like the cruel treatment of animals any more than you do, but i can't wait around until that changes to begin eating meat - i'd wilt. so it comes down to a very simple decision for those of us that require meat. not all of us feel good about it, ok?

    to me, this is no different than a same-sex marriage or religious debate. why can't we just allow others to live their lives as they see fit and stay in our own lanes in the meantime? preaching veganism or vegetarianism as the only way to go while maligning meat-eaters is no less intolerant or dogmatic than a fundamental religionist preaching his faith as the *only* way; or a homophobe decrying gays as evil; or a racist declaring blacks to be a lesser race. when this topic arises, i'm always shocked that this isn't obvious to the few doing the preaching - they are so satiated with feelings of lofty self-righteousness that they completely and utterly lack any sense of self-awareness.

    we must not get into the business of telling others how to live their lives.
    Last edited by Mike; 11th January 2013 at 04:42.

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    Default Re: Dalai Lama is a hypocrite when it comes to eating meat!

    Quote Posted by Chinaski (here)
    we must not get into the business of telling others how to live their lives.
    Mate, I think you summarized to whole religion stuff in on sentence.

    These folks, who are the masters of telling people how to live their lives, very often don´t follow their own teachings.

    Hey, I have nothing against people who eat meat. My best friends, my mom and the rest of my family eat meat, and I love them profoundly.

    If the Dalai Lama, as an individual, wants to make barbecue in his backyard every weekend, that´s fine. But we can´t forget that he´s the supreme leader of a religion extremely centered in vegetarianism.

    If he indeed has this medical problem, ok, then it´s justifiable. However, refusing to eat a vegetarian dish, made exclusively for him, just to enjoy the obviously unnecessary pleasures of eating meat in a public meeting, then it´s a completely different thing. He could have avoided it, even if it´s only for the sake of preserving his religious culture publicly.

    Man, imagine if the pope supposedly had some problems with his testicles that required him to have sex a couple of times a week...Dude, it would be like World War 3 for the Catholics.
    Last edited by RMorgan; 11th January 2013 at 01:09.

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    Default Re: Dalai Lama is a hypocrite when it comes to eating meat!

    as a leader in a well-know religion , he should do or do not. no-one likes wishy washy people ...
    Raiding the Matrix One Mind at a Time ...

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    Default Re: Dalai Lama is a hypocrite when it comes to eating meat!

    ha! careful Raf, you may be giving the Pope some ideas, mate

    maybe we need Tony here, but the Dalai Lama *is* quoted as saying that the vinaya does not prohibit meat-eating. besides, should we expect him to allow himself to deteriorate for the sake of a few sensitive buddhists? seriously though, should he stubbornly make a martyr of himself to highlight the misguided notion of veganism for *everybody*?

    oh, and world war 3 for the Catholics might not be such a bad idea! ha!

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by ghostrider (here)
    as a leader in a well-know religion , he should do or do not. no-one likes wishy washy people ...

    i'm wishy-washy. i've still got a few friends...

    besides, his position is clear: he eats meat a couple times a week. pretty simple.

    shall we ask him to write it in blood to satisfy our need for consistency?

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    Default Re: Dalai Lama is a hypocrite when it comes to eating meat!

    Quote Posted by Chinaski (here)
    he's not a hypocrite. he's simply evolved, changed his mind.

    if he continued to preach strict vegetarianism, you might have a point. but he's quite vocal about eating meat, not just "occasionally", but usually 2 times a week.

    why? he had several health issues, one being hepatitis, and under instructions from his doctor began consuming meat. it's no coincidence that his health returned with the introduction of meat to his diet. some people require meat to be healthy; he's one of them. so am i. some don't need meat to be healthy and vibrant; you sound like like you fit into this category.

    i don't like the cruel treatment of animals any more than you do, but i can't wait around until that changes to begin eating meat - i'd wilt. so it comes down to a very simple decision for those of us that require meat. not all of us feel good about it, ok?

    to me, this is no different than a same-sex marriage or religious debate. why can't we just allow others to live their lives as they see fit and stay in our own lanes in the meantime? preaching veganism or vegetarianism as the only way to go while maligning meat-eaters is no less intolerant or dogmatic than a fundamentalist religionist preaching his faith as the *only* way; or a homophobe decrying gays as evil; or a racist declaring blacks to be a lesser race. when this topic arises, i'm always shocked that this isn't obvious to the few doing the preaching - they are so satiated with feelings of lofty self-righteousness that they completely and utterly lack any sense of self-awareness.

    we must not get into the business of telling others how to live their lives.

    Baseless judging is humanity's favourite pastime!! Quit ruining it!!
    After all, not one single of us has been a hypocrite in our lives. It's obvious the "Lama" works for the devil to deceive us. (<-----Inject severe sarcasm font)
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 11th January 2013 at 02:44. Reason: spelling
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    Default Re: Dalai Lama is a hypocrite when it comes to eating meat!

    ha! so true DeDukshyn! i really hate it when i've senselessly made my mind up about something..and then someone has the nerve to step up and challenge me with reason and facts! damn them!

    i'll try to tone it down, ok?

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    Default Re: Dalai Lama is a hypocrite when it comes to eating meat!

    "Man, imagine if the pope supposedly had some problems with his testicles that required him to have sex a couple of times a week...Dude, it would be like World War 3 for the Catholics."

    What makes you think El Popatahtah doesn't have sex a couple times a week?

    From what I've been researching he could give Hugh Heffner a few lessons on how to...

    Oh, wait a minute. The Hughster likes females, not adolescent boys. Never mind. ;-)

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    Default Re: Dalai Lama is a hypocrite when it comes to eating meat!

    The pedophile priests peturbed me pretty good peeps. I believe in Jesus but not the bullsh!t baseball organization any longer. All religions are a trap. God needs MONEY!!!!!!!! If I may..i great skit by The Man.....George Carlin. LMFAO



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    Default Re: Dalai Lama is a hypocrite when it comes to eating meat!

    Quote Posted by PathWalker (here)

    The letter above is an example for a fanatic measuring others for his standards of fanaticisms.
    I wish to remind all the essence of Buddhism is to reduce suffering.
    The essence of buddhism is to follow the eightfold path laid down by Buddha, which leads to the elimination of suffering through awakening. In order to follow this path all buddhists (including lay buddhists) have to first follow the five precepts, the first of which is that you refrain from killing. For most buddhists, this precept prohibits them from killing any sentient being, which of course includes meat, chicken and fish along with insects and the mosquitoes that bite them.

    It doesn't cut to say he needs to eat meat on doctor's advice. Not for an advanced spiritual being.

    Given that if I pay you to bump off my ex-wife, I am deemed to be guilty of murder, then similarly if I pay you for a bucket of chicken wings I am similarly guilty of the murder of the said chicken(s), as you have had to kill them on my behalf.

    I have for a long time been troubled by the behaviour of DL XIV, who seems to spend most of his time swanning around doing ceremonial duties and limits his worldly involvement to winding up China. He is an obvious phoney, and all his books and notable sayings are clearly ghost written. Despite being the most influential buddhist in the world, he has not spoken out about the pogroms being carried out by buddhists, including monks, against muslims in Myanmar and Sri lankar, and he seems to be positively encouraging self immolations in Tibet for his own political ends.

    This guy is the elephant in the room when it comes to the problems faced by Tibetan Buddhists.

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dalai Lama is a hypocrite when it comes to eating meat!

    Quote Posted by bram (here)
    Quote Posted by PathWalker (here)

    The letter above is an example for a fanatic measuring others for his standards of fanaticisms.
    I wish to remind all the essence of Buddhism is to reduce suffering.
    The essence of buddhism is to follow the eightfold path laid down by Buddha, which leads to the elimination of suffering through awakening. In order to follow this path all buddhists (including lay buddhists) have to first follow the five precepts, the first of which is that you refrain from killing. For most buddhists, this precept prohibits them from killing any sentient being, which of course includes meat, chicken and fish along with insects and the mosquitoes that bite them.

    It doesn't cut to say he needs to eat meat on doctor's advice. Not for an advanced spiritual being.

    Given that if I pay you to bump off my ex-wife, I am deemed to be guilty of murder, then similarly if I pay you for a bucket of chicken wings I am similarly guilty of the murder of the said chicken(s), as you have had to kill them on my behalf.

    I have for a long time been troubled by the behaviour of DL XIV, who seems to spend most of his time swanning around doing ceremonial duties and limits his worldly involvement to winding up China. He is an obvious phoney, and all his books and notable sayings are clearly ghost written. Despite being the most influential buddhist in the world, he has not spoken out about the pogroms being carried out by buddhists, including monks, against muslims in Myanmar and Sri lankar, and he seems to be positively encouraging self immolations in Tibet for his own political ends.

    This guy is the elephant in the room when it comes to the problems faced by Tibetan Buddhists.

    shall we lock up lions for killing zebra's to survive? is the lion as guilty as the human in this hypothetical scenario of yours? their needs are the same, no?

    silly, you say? maybe not quite as silly as the arrogance demonstrated in your statement suggesting a meat-eating man cannot be spiritually advanced. i dunno, mate: i'm was raised Catholic; i'm not sure what the Buddhists say about judgement....

    i don't want to pick a fight with you Bram, but please answer this question: if your health, and maybe even your life depended on you consuming meat, would you eat it?

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    Default Re: Dalai Lama is a hypocrite when it comes to eating meat!

    IF one does not have to kill an animal to live - as so many thousands have demonstrated in India and China - then why would one do so? Unless of course they did not have any compassion? It seems logical to me?

    Feeling compassion for an animal that is being killed unnecessarily and raising awareness about such matters is only called being "self righteous" by those who have missed the point IMHO. I guess there is no communicating with those who actively and proudly choose denial...it is amusing for us to watch though - and therein may lie a little self-righteousness...I admit. lol

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    Default Re: Dalai Lama is a hypocrite when it comes to eating meat!

    Quote Posted by Chinaski (here)
    Quote Posted by bram (here)
    Quote Posted by PathWalker (here)

    The letter above is an example for a fanatic measuring others for his standards of fanaticisms.
    I wish to remind all the essence of Buddhism is to reduce suffering.
    The essence of buddhism is to follow the eightfold path laid down by Buddha, which leads to the elimination of suffering through awakening. In order to follow this path all buddhists (including lay buddhists) have to first follow the five precepts, the first of which is that you refrain from killing. For most buddhists, this precept prohibits them from killing any sentient being, which of course includes meat, chicken and fish along with insects and the mosquitoes that bite them.

    It doesn't cut to say he needs to eat meat on doctor's advice. Not for an advanced spiritual being.

    Given that if I pay you to bump off my ex-wife, I am deemed to be guilty of murder, then similarly if I pay you for a bucket of chicken wings I am similarly guilty of the murder of the said chicken(s), as you have had to kill them on my behalf.

    I have for a long time been troubled by the behaviour of DL XIV, who seems to spend most of his time swanning around doing ceremonial duties and limits his worldly involvement to winding up China. He is an obvious phoney, and all his books and notable sayings are clearly ghost written. Despite being the most influential buddhist in the world, he has not spoken out about the pogroms being carried out by buddhists, including monks, against muslims in Myanmar and Sri lankar, and he seems to be positively encouraging self immolations in Tibet for his own political ends.

    This guy is the elephant in the room when it comes to the problems faced by Tibetan Buddhists.

    shall we lock up lions for killing zebra's to survive? is the lion as guilty as the human in this hypothetical scenario of yours? their needs are the same, no?

    silly, you say? maybe not quite as silly as the arrogance demonstrated in your statement suggesting a meat-eating man cannot be spiritually advanced. i dunno, mate: i'm was raised Catholic; i'm not sure what the Buddhists say about judgement....

    i don't want to pick a fight with you Bram, but please answer this question: if your health, and maybe even your life depended on you consuming meat, would you eat it?
    Those lion's are going straight to hell ... you better believe it!!
    Me too, I eat meat, and I say people should eat less, maybe less than me. Damn hypocrite!

    Let's get back to bringing something positive to the world before we lose our perspective on reality for the judgements of a single human being. Plank or a speck? Seriously.

    If you are vegetarioan or vegan, Yay! If you eat meat, Yay! Just try to bring some positiveness to the world, and if you have to eat animals, eat ones that lived a good life, and give your damn respects. My 2 cents
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    Thailand Avalon Member bram's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dalai Lama is a hypocrite when it comes to eating meat!

    Quote Posted by Chinaski (here)

    silly, you say? maybe not quite as silly as the arrogance demonstrated in your statement suggesting a meat-eating man cannot be spiritually advanced. i dunno, mate: i'm was raised Catholic; i'm not sure what the Buddhists say about judgement....

    i don't want to pick a fight with you Bram, but please answer this question: if your health, and maybe even your life depended on you consuming meat, would you eat it?
    I'm not saying that a meat-eating man cannot be spiritually advanced. But I dont think the Dalai Lama is spiritually advanced. I think he is clearly at war with his minders, who keep telling everybody he is vegetarian, then when he escapes into public he makes a beeline for the beef!

    As for the last part of the quote above, before I answer it can you tell me what the magic ingredient is that can only be obtained from meat (especially for someone who has an entourage of chefs skilled in the arts of vegetarian cookery)?

    I think the buddhists would say that judgement is unskillful behaviour (which means behaviour which does not lead towards the cessation of suffering but instead contributes to illusory thinking) so thanks for the reminder. I will shut up on this one!

    Love, bram

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    Default Re: Dalai Lama is a hypocrite when it comes to eating meat!

    A man in a dream ate a dream cow, while various dream characters offered opinions.

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    Default Re: Dalai Lama is a hypocrite when it comes to eating meat!

    Quote Posted by another bob (here)
    A man in a dream ate a dream cow, while various dream characters offered opinions.
    Efficient!! I like that!
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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