Their Mind and the Emotional Matrix that we create with it.

[Jeffrey]

The following excerpts are from an exchange between Osho and one of his disciples (emphasis added). The content of the dialogue is about the mechanical reactions of the mind and it's habits. It also touches on some of the fundamentals of Gurdjieff's philosophy. [Side note: Man meaning man or woman -- humanity in general.]

Osho on Sufi Sayings - Man is a Machine

Question : Why do the Sufis say that man is a Machine?

Osho : Man is a machine, that's why. Man as he is is utterly unconscious. He is nothing but his habits, the sum total of his habits. Man is a robot. Man is not yet man: unless consciousness enters into your being, you will remain a machine. That's why the Sufis say man is a machine. It is from the Sufis that Gurdjieff introduced the idea to the West that man is a machine. It is very rarely that you are conscious.

In your whole seventy years' life, if you live the ordinary so-called life -- healthy and whole within and without, with no pain of growth, with no pain within you of a growing pearl of exceeding beauty -- then you will not know even seven moments of awareness in your whole life. And even if you know those seven moments or less, they will be only accidental. For example, you may know a moment of awareness if somebody suddenly comes and puts a revolver on your heart. In that moment, your thinking, your habitual thinking, stops.

For a moment you become aware, because it is so dangerous, you cannot remain ordinarily asleep. In some dangerous situation you become aware. Otherwise you remain fast asleep. You are perfectly skillful at doing your things mechanically. Just stand by the side of the road and watch people, and you will be able to see that they are all walking in their sleep. All are sleep-walkers, somnambulists. And so are you.

[...]

Just watch yourself. Even to the very point of death, people go on repeating old habitual patterns.

[...]

Man reacts. That's why the Sufis say man is a machine. Unless you start responding, unless you become responsible... Reaction comes out of the past, responses comes out of the present moment. Response is spontaneous, reaction is just old habit.

Just watch yourself. Your woman says something to you: then whatsoever you say, watch, ponder over it. Is it just a reaction? And you will be surprised: ninety-nine percent of your acts are not acts, because they are not responses, they are just mechanical. Just mechanical. It has been happening again and again: you say the same thing and your woman reacts the same way, and then you react, and it ends in the same thing again and again. You know it, she knows it, everything is predictable.

[...]

Just watch yourself. The things that you are doing, you have done so many times. The ways you react, you have been reacting always. In the same situation you always do the same thing. You are feeling nervous and you take out your cigarette and you start smoking. It is a reaction; whenever you have felt nervous you have done it. You are a machine. It is just a built-in program in you now: you feel nervous, your hand goes into the pocket, the packet comes out. It is almost like a machine doing things.

You take the cigarette out, you put the cigarette in your mouth, you light the cigarette, and this is all going on mechanically. This has been done millions of times, and you are doing it again. And each time you do this it is strengthened; the machine becomes more mechanical, the machine becomes more skillful. The more you do it, the less awareness is needed to do it. This is why the Sufis say man functions as a machine. Unless you start destroying these mechanical habits... Sufis have many methods to destroy them.

For example, they teach many devices. They say: Do something just contrary to what you have always done. Try it.

[...]

I have heard about a psychoanalyst who was telling his patient -- must have been giving him a Sufi device -- "Today when you go home..." because the patient was complaining again and again. "I am always afraid of going home. My wife looks so miserable, so sad, always in despair, that my heart starts sinking. I want to escape from the home."

The psychologist said, "Maybe you are the cause of it. Do something: today take flowers and ice cream and sweets for the woman, and when she opens the door hug her, give her a good kiss. And then immediately start helping her: clean the table and the pots and the floor. Do something absolutely new that you have never done before."

The idea was appealing and the man tried it. He went home. The moment the wife opened the door and saw flowers and ice cream and sweets, and this beaming man who had never been laughing hugged her, she could not believe what was happening! She was in an utter shock, she could not believe her eyes: maybe this is somebody else! She had to look again. And then when he kissed her and immediately just started cleaning the table and went to the sink and started washing the pots, the woman started crying.

When he came out he said, "Why are you crying?" She said, "Have you gone mad? I always suspected one day or other you would go mad. Now it has happened. Why don't you go and see a psychiatrist?"

Sufis have such devices. They say: Act totally differently, and not only will others be surprised, YOU will be surprised. And just in small things. For example, when you are nervous you walk fast. Don't walk fast, go very slow and see. You will be surprised that it doesn't fit, that your whole mechanical mind immediately says, "What are you doing? You have never done this!" And if you walk slowly you will be surprised: nervousness disappears, because you have brought in something new.

These are the methods of Vipassana and Zazen. If you go deep into them the fundamentals are the same. When you are doing vipassana walking, you have to walk more slowly than you have ever walked before, so slowly that it is absolutely new. The whole feeling is new, and the reactive mind cannot function. It cannot function because it has no program for it; it simply stops functioning. That's why in vipassana you feel so silent watching the breath. You have always breathed but you have never watched it; this is something new.

When you sit silently and just watch you breath -- coming in, going out, coming in, going out -- the mind feels puzzled: what are you doing? Because you have never done it. It is so new that the mind cannot supply an immediate reaction to it. Hence it falls silent. The fundamental is the same. Whether Sufi or Buddhist or Hindu or Mohammedan is not the question. If you go deep into meditation's fundamentals then the essential thing is one: how to de-automatize you.

Gurdjieff used to do very bizarre things to his disciples. Somebody would come who had always been a vegetarian, and he would say, "Eat meat." Now, it is the same fundamental -- this man is just a little too much of himself, a little eccentric. He would say, "Eat meat." Now, watch a vegetarian eating meat. The whole body wants to throw it out and he wants to vomit, and the whole mind is puzzled and disturbed and he starts perspiring, because the mind has no way to cope with it. That's what Gurdjieff wanted to see, how you would react to a new situation.

To the man who had never taken any alcohol Gurdjieff would say, "Drink. Drink as much as you can." And to the man who had been drinking alcohol Gurdjieff would say, "Stop for one month. Completely stop." He wanted to create some situation which is so new for the mind that the mind simply falls silent; it has no answer for it, no ready-made answer for it. The mind functions in a parrot-like way. That's why Zen masters will hit the disciple sometimes. That is again the same fundamental.

Now, when you go to a master you don't expect a buddha to hit you, or do you? When you go to Buddha you go with expectations that he will be compassionate and loving, that he will shower love and put his hand on your head. And this buddha gives you a hit -- takes his staff and hits you hard on the head. Now, it is so shocking: a buddha, hitting you? For a moment the mind stops; it has no idea what to do, it does not function. And that nonfunctioning is the beginning.

Sometimes a person has become enlightened just because the master did something absurd. People have expectations, people live through expectations. They don't know that masters don't fit with any kind of expectations.

[...]

But who are you to decide what I should say and what I should not say? And naturally, when something goes against their expectations they immediately react according to their old conditionings. Those who react according to their old conditionings miss the point. Those who don't react according to the old conditionings fall silent, get into a new space. I am talking to my disciples: I am trying to hit them, this way and that. It is all deliberate.

[...]

The Sufis say man is a machine because man only reacts according to the programs that have been fed to him. Start behaving responsively, and then you are not a machine. And when you are not a machine you are a man: then the man is born.

Watch, become alert, observe, and go on dropping all the reactive patterns in you. Each moment try to respond to the reality -- not according to the ready-made idea in you but according to the reality as it is there outside. Respond to the reality! Respond with your total consciousness but not with your mind. And then when you respond spontaneously and you don't react, action is born. Action is beautiful, reaction is ugly. Only a man of awareness acts, the man of unawareness REACTS. Action liberates. Reaction goes on creating the same chains, goes on making them thicker and harder and stronger. Live a life of response and not of reaction.

Source: http://www.messagefrommasters.com/Sh..._a_Machine.htm

[aikisaw]

9eagle9


"Forgiveness isn't an emotion. Neither is laughter. Having been in new agey, spiritual circles, the only people that ever seemed to laugh were rational people. For as much as they claimed bliss or happiness you never seen the love monsters smiling. They were always stuck in some fraught emotional situation either their own or someone elses. Or they would approach you to impose some emotion on you because THEY needed the attention."



The love monsters, that is funny.

Thank You 9eagle9 for a thought provoking thread.

I have spent a lot of time working with the ideas you have presented and others have contributed to in this thread. It has helped me to understand my own mind, thoughts, and emotions.

It has given me tools to deal with things that clearings, healing, and meditation did not touch.

Things I did not feel I was was generating, but had to deal with non the less. I was not blaming others but had no understanding of how to handle the intolerance for other people that would come around about once a month for one or two days. I would generally stay home or go for a walk in the woods (alone) maybe schedule a clearing.

I once explained it to a coworker that I did not understand it when it happened but it was real and no amount of happy thoughts could make it go away. There were times when happy thoughts made it worse.....fueled the fire.

I can say their mind got plenty of emotional energy on those days. It will be nice to shut that source off.



It is like another piece of the puzzle has been revealed.

Thanks you all for that.

I found this video on Houman's Horus Ra thread. I thought it fits in well with this thread.


https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...ew-with-Maarit

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=UrAgb1-UKQ8

[CdnSirian]

Gurdjieff! Love him! "Meetings With Remarkable Men"...."All And Everything Beelzebub's Tales To His Grandson"....fantastic telling and humor. For us earth bipeds, a great reference.

And for the earth quadripeds...thanks for hanging with 9eagle9!

After passing through the region near the Caspian Sea where Beelzebub landed his spaceship... in the story...I became very curious about Gurdieff.

I understand he eventually developed the persona of a cult leader - but is that because he went to NY?

[9eagle9]

http://www.thefrisky.com/2012-05-25/...hop-mannequin/

http://www.thefrisky.com/2011-06-13/...mannequin-man/

http://www.thefrisky.com/2011-01-28/...nge-addiction/


Inhabited constructs. These are becoming more common. This is the next step after GFL, where one finds or makes a non-physical construct to inhabit with emotion. It is very real to them although absolutely ridiculous and lacking anything resembling even magickal reality. Some people are inclined to say these are mentally ill people. Not at all, they are emotionally inhabiting an 'ideal' until it becomes real to them. Taking it one step further than the GFL people could ....they just find a construct or build one themselves.

[AwakeInADream]

My ISP wouldn't let me access your links 9eagle9, it said they were ADULT CONTENT! lol

Anyway, on the subject of love. If you get two different people to imagine a tree, those two people will 'see' a different tree. It is the same with love, as no two people will have the same conception of what 'unconditional' love really is. That doesn't mean that real love doesn't exist as a force in the world, it just means that hardly anyone knows what it really feels like in truth. All we have are shadows of the real world. Glimses of truth that quickly fade. We are dreaming now.

If I told you I loved you I would be decieving myself, but if I told you I was love and so are you, that would be the truth.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I don't see love in it's true sense as an emotion, but rather an essential part of our being.

Emotion is truly a dangerous thing indeed as it is the fuel for most wars in what ever guise it takes.(hate,pride,love,fear)

[9eagle9]

You can Google Men who married Mannequins

Or Man who Married Mannequin, Strange Addictions

It will pop up a number of links , probably more than what you want to read

[AwakeInADream]

What! This guy?

That certainly is one case of love misunderstood! LOL!

[9eagle9]

That's one of them. I think that is the one that started out as a 'just a head'. Then he built her a body.

Gave 'er quite a pair didn't he?

[AwakeInADream]

Yep! You could say he looks like a right tit! (if the photo was taken from the other side....)

She looks exited! Maybe she is alive????

EDIT: I'm talking about her facial expression, not her apparent nipple arousal.

[Jenci]

This is a great thread thanks 9E9. I hope people can come to the thread and leave the emotions aside and read with an openness which allows the truth of what is being pointed to here to be received.

Posted by 9eagle9 (here)

I too am interested in any suggestions.

I don't think there is a one size, fits all way of dealing with this. People react and understand in so many different ways. Often it appears there is no rhyme or reason to that. You can see people responding favourably to one person's post, dismissing another's when in fact both people are saying the same thing. Of course they are not responding to what has been said but more reacting through their emotions which have been triggered by the content or the person giving it.

Some people, by their nature, respond well to a very simplistic approach, others to a more analytical, scientific approach. Whatever the differences though, the aim is the same to produce that "A-Ha" moment where there is a break in the normal program of the mind, which creates a space for something else to enter.

As there is no one size fits all approach I think you need to be flexible and adapt the information being given to respond to the individual who is receiving. This is not so easy on a forum like this but can be done effectively on a one-to-one level.

Of course you need to be in your right mind to be able to have the flexibility and clarity to see the needs of the person to guide them towards that "A-ha" moment. If you are rigid in your approach, you're just running a program yourself and it is going to be counter productive.

I very often talk about the lack of the personal self because it is where my interests lie but I am also aware of that this is not the information that is going to help some people. I remember the time when I first heard someone talk about it and although I was already into this spiritual journey myself and I thought he was absolutely bonkers and I immediately shut down to what he was saying. If you think someone is insane you are not going to listen to them are you?

So, it is about meeting people where they are at and giving out information that they are ready for.

Having said that I wouldn't be so stuck as to say I would not talk about the absence of personal self in the first instance if I felt at the time it may be appropriate.

A single spark can set everything alight and using something which provides a shock and stops the mind dead in its tracks can be very effective as we have seen outlined in the excellent quotes posted by Vivek here.

But we can only offer solutions to people who know they have problems and most often people are not aware there is a problem. At the extreme I have observed this in AA. You have people with complete obvious destruction in their life - loss of relationship, children, job, home, licence - and they walk into AA and you would think that they know they have a problem because the evidence is clear for all to see...but they don't know.

If you go in with a solution at this point you get no where because you can only apply a solution to a problem. In their minds there is no problem. It is not even a case of being in denial because if you become very observant you will see that to them their life has become so habitual and automated that the destruction is seen as actually normal.

So the first step necessary is to outline the problem to them and get them to see that their life, their behaviours and their thinking is anything but normal; in fact it is insane. Only when they can see that problem can you begin with the solution.


Now alcoholics and their destructive minds are at the extreme end but the same patterns can be observed in other people, although the destruction in their life will be less obvious the insane thinking will be just as insidious. You can observe this if you watch people - the same people reacting in the same way, getting the same results, completely oblivious to the wreckage it is causing around them. They may talk the talk about being spiritual and self improvement but as they cannot see the problem, they will never seek to fix it.

If you point it out they will immediately either go on the defensive or the attack and the claws will come out and you will get the insults, the put-downs, the sarcasm etc. It's very predictable. This type of reaction is fairly standard amongst the majority of people, who will react through their emotional and pain body rather than applying any logical thought to the events which are actually happening.

So the first step I would say is to get people to see that there is a problem. To do this I would favour bringing them to the point that they are the witness/observer of their mind. It's a very simple shift in perspective but difficult to achieve when they they believe that they are their mind and are led by its thoughts.

This is a case of where repetition of the same instruction can pay off and produce the "A-ha". Stepping back as the witness provides the space observe with clarity what is going on with the thinking.


What I would hope is that if anyone has read your thread/posts and dismissed what you are saying is that they come back again, put aside their emotional reactions and any ideas that you are being critical and read again with openness. You're giving people a key to get themselves out their prison to freedom.

That's priceless. Keep doing what you're doing

Jeanette

[D-Day]

Posted by aikisaw (here)
I found this video on Houman's Horus Ra thread. I thought it fits in well with this thread.


https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...ew-with-Maarit

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=UrAgb1-UKQ8

That video should be made compulsory viewing for, well, pretty much everyoone really.

... but particularly for budding 'new age spiritualists' and 'truthers'.

[9eagle9]

The video is more than in alignment with what is being said here. We are drowning in fake love, and new age political correctness.

I'd like to pick some quotes out of there and paste them up. Can't copy and paste from video though so might be a while.

The last people who would read that are the very ones whose lives depend on reading it. They will not watch it because it does not support or prop up their broken emotional body.

I'm sure it will be regarded as Fear Mongering.

Fear mongering is another key reactive meme. The moment someone posts something up that is 'negative' or not about love, one is fear mongering. This says quite a lot about someone's emotional state.

"The stock market took a dip today"

OH YOU ARE FEAR MONGERING!

They don't realize because of their own filters that people can talk about uncomfortable circumstances without going into a reactive fear state.
This is an uncomfortable topic. I haven't seen anyone go over the deep edge with it because ....people can talk about uncomfortable topics without having an emotion attached to it. The are not emotionally inhabited in the idea, self identified with it, so can discuss it solely on a mental level where there are no emotions. They have not made an inhabited construct of it and poured energy into it.

Vivek is one example of that. He doesn't jealously guard his work or go into a wad when its scrutinized but I'm sure he's impassioned by the discoveries he's making, not 'the' ideas he is making. He doesn't get attached to any one idea and inhabit it.

Then there's fear porn. The same as happy porn , or normal XXX porn. It makes people excited to read it. It titillates them on some level . The Drake saga is one. It's not fear mongering, its fear porn. People feel warm all over reading it but its no more real than anything else. It's a program being run.

[Kristin]

Posted by 9eagle9 (here)
Your foregiven...lol.

Forgiveness as the document demonstrates is an act of clearing not an emotion. You may not have intended to show that but I seen it none the less.

Posted by 9eagle9 (here)
Your foregiven...lol.


Forgiveness as the document demonstrates is an act of clearing not an emotion. You may not have intended to show that but I seen it none the less.

I forgive you I am sorry I love you thank you ...

Hm.... you mind telling me what I did precisely that I am in need of your forgiveness? Just out of curiosity....?

Posted by Kimberley (here)

Posted by 9eagle9 (here)
Your foregiven...lol.

Forgiveness as the document demonstrates is an act of clearing not an emotion. You may not have intended to show that but I seen it none the less.

I forgive you I am sorry I love you thank you ...

It just looks like Kimberley was practicing Ho'oponopono...

kahuna lapaʻau? Lol.

Ho'oponopono, the core foundation of the practice is the ACTS of reconciliations that ultimately lead to forgiveness. Reconciliations means you understand what you are forgiving someone for.

Its a bit more involved than blurting benchmark words to strangers on the internet.

Maybe more practice is required?

Posted by Amzer Zo (here)
It just looks like Kimberley was practicing Ho'oponopono...

I see from reading the 20 pages, that the act of loving is more powerful than being loved.
As for unconditional love Nasargadatta said that "Unconditional love is impossible until you are enlightened as there is always an agenda even if its to feel good". However one can hope for that ability and practise towards it.
Forgiveness is the core teaching of "A course in miracles" and many other "self help" tutorials.
Lester devoted his life to helping others--- all credit to him

Chris

Which deprives me of my learning experience since I still have no idea how this relates to me and gives me nothing to reflect on as far as what I did to you to see where my error lies at that you must forgive me for.

If someone is forgiving me then I must have done something wrong. Knowing what I did wrong of course gives me an opportunity to self reflect to find you what prompts me to make such errors.

Otherwise I'm just making an empty contract. Or you are attempting to make a construct and get me to inhabit it. And I politely refused, since you won't reveal the conditions associated with the contract. In that respect you would then be using an ancient healing tradition for your own self gratification and I will not be a party to that either.

"I refuse to contract until I know what the conditions are".

Better luck elsewhere though I'm sure.


Anyway for those interested Dr Hew Len, who also teaches how to take personal responsibility for everything in ones life, this interview would be a good place to start:

You mean like refusing to contract with others in an empty way? For an example. I just did and in doing so exercised my personal responsibility to myself and ....others.

Not to fear there's literally zillions of people who will participate in that sort of thing though. Kimberley simply had the poor luck to direct at someone who wouldn't.

9eagle9 I dont think its ever about forgiving "you"--- its about the seeming other being prepared to let go of their imaginary grievances.
That frees them up.
You that is everyone in your core need to look and see if you have done some thing that you feel you need to forgive yourself for.
Let the other do what they feel they need to do--- what they think of me is non of my business. That's a simple generalisation.
There will be exceptions where I am concerned that others have miss-understood me.

Chris

You walked her right into that one Chris...lol. I have no idea if she will appreciate you for that or not.

I know that Kimberley has imaginary grievances with me,she has expressed them to me by her own self admission. I simply wanted to know if she were expressing that she had imaginary grievances with me or that she had some real issue that I in my insanity had imposed on her. I don't see in any part of this thread where I imposed on anyone.

Because she decided to highlight me in this excercize I do have the right to know these things. I will not carry an error that is not of my own making, I have enough of my own to tote around.

If someone wants to make an example of me its only polite to say why one is doing so. Otherwise the entirely of the wisdom that is learned here is overlooked.

thank you Kimberley for letting go of your imaginary grievances towards me.

And thank you Chris for being honest enough to say what others will not.

Posted by 9eagle9 (here)
You walked her right into that one Chris...lol. I have no idea if she will appreciate you for that or not.

I know that Kimberley has imaginary grievances with me,she has expressed them to me by her own self admission. I simply wanted to know if she were expressing that she had imaginary grievances with me or that she had some real issue that I in my insanity had imposed on her. I don't see in any part of this thread where I imposed on anyone.

Because she decided to highlight me in this excercize I do have the right to know these things. I will not carry an error that is not of my own making, I have enough of my own to tote around.

If someone wants to make an example of me its only polite to say why one is doing so. Otherwise the entirely of the wisdom that is learned here is overlooked.

thank you Kimberley for letting go of your imaginary grievances towards me.

And thank you Chris for being honest enough to say what others will not.

Its all levels 9eagles9.
To be honest I did not have Kimberley in mind--- I was just thinking on the essence of your post.

"A course in miracles" is help full---it states "You are never angry for the reason you think you are"
The wife shouted at the man--he got angry with the kids, they kicked the dog, the dog chased the cat, the cat caught the mouse and on it goes.
Also what annoys one does not push the buttons of another----so who exactly is to blame for the slight I took on board?
Trying to find out is a can of worms.

When something comes up for me I surrender the juice I get from it to The Divine.
That works well and clears a lot.
I used to get a lot of juice from being the wronged one--- after all I was such a kind person was I not?
I did not deserve to be treated like that.
Truth probably was that I was manipulative looking for favours for my kindness.
So there being no end to it surrendering the juice covers a multitude of "sins". (Emotions, feelings the works)
Thats from the essence of the teachings of Dr Hawkins.

Chris

I think this is a case where you should continue the honesty route and just say what you mean Chris.

To clarify: You lost me when you began 'preaching to the choir,' I know what the Course in Miracles says. I want to know what you are saying though?

i agree its getting personal, and its basically something that 'affects' and 'effects' all of us.

Posted by 9eagle9 (here)
I think this is a case where you should continue the honesty route and just say what you mean Chris.

To clarify: You lost me when you began 'preaching to the choir,' I know what the Course in Miracles says. I want to know what you are saying though?

I wasnt talking specifically to your self 9eagle9 after the first part.
Then I went general-- I know you studied the course.-, but many haven’t and guests read these threads.
I missed that Kimberly apologised to you as she was not named in your post, only when I saw your response did I go back to get that.
My first response would have been exactly the same if I knew then that Kimberly said what she said.

Hope that clarifies

Regards Chris

No it doesn't truthfully Chris, but if no one minds I may claim this interchange for use in my thread if moderation would like to move it there for me. While i agree its getting off topic its pretty much fits there a treat and wouldn't serve as a distraction here.

Give me the link and I'll combine this conversation to the thread you would like.

From the Heart,
Kristin

Here are the posts to continue the conversation.

[9eagle9]

Anyone care to take a stab at what just occurred in that conversation?

[AwakeInADream]

Posted by 9eagle9 (here)
Anyone care to take a stab at what just occurred in that conversation?

Can you provide a link to the conversation as it happened? I'm confused about who is speaking to who.

Is it about reacting to, and projecting false emotions onto others, thus falsifying your perceptions so that communication becomes unclear?
(Like addressing issues within others that are really only present in the self?)

[9eagle9]

9eagle9 @ Roman: Your foregiven...lol.

Forgiveness as the document demonstrates is an act of clearing not an emotion. You may not have intended to show that but I seen it none the less.
___________________________

Kimberely at 9Eagle9: I forgive you I am sorry I love you thank you ...

_________________________________________________________

9EAGLE9 @Kimberely: Hm.... you mind telling me what I did precisely that I am in need of your forgiveness? Just out of curiosity....?

________________________________________________________



Amzer Z0 @ 9EAGLE:It just looks like Kimberley was practicing Ho'oponopono

_______________________________________________________________

9EAGLE9 @Amzer ZO:

kahuna lapaau? Lol.

Ho'oponopono, the core foundation of the practice is the ACTS of reconciliations that ultimately lead to forgiveness. Reconciliations means you understand what you are forgiving someone for.

Its a bit more involved than blurting benchmark words to strangers on the internet.

Maybe more practice is required?

_____________________________________

Greybeard@9EAGLE9

I see from reading the 20 pages, that the act of loving is more powerful than being loved.
As for unconditional love Nasargadatta said that "Unconditional love is impossible until you are enlightened as there is always an agenda even if its to feel good". However one can hope for that ability and practise towards it.
Forgiveness is the core teaching of "A course in miracles" and many other "self help" tutorials.
Lester devoted his life to helping others--- all credit to him

Chris


_________________________________________________________

9EAGLE9@Kimberely (who never did answer my question, i am actually posting a response to a video she posted in lieu of answering my question) Which deprives me of my learning experience since I still have no idea how this relates to me and gives me nothing to reflect on as far as what I did to you to see where my error lies at that you must forgive me for.

If someone is forgiving me then I must have done something wrong. Knowing what I did wrong of course gives me an opportunity to self reflect to find you what prompts me to make such errors.

Otherwise I'm just making an empty contract. Or you are attempting to make a construct and get me to inhabit it. And I politely refused, since you won't reveal the conditions associated with the contract. In that respect you would then be using an ancient healing tradition for your own self gratification and I will not be a party to that either.

"I refuse to contract until I know what the conditions are".

Better luck elsewhere though I'm sure.


Quote Kimberly: Anyway for those interested Dr Hew Len, who also teaches how to take personal responsibility for everything in ones life, this interview would be a good place to start:

9EAGLE: You mean like refusing to contract with others in an empty way? For an example. I just did and in doing so exercised my personal responsibility to myself and ....others.

Not to fear there's literally zillions of people who will participate in that sort of thing though. Kimberley simply had the poor luck to direct at someone who wouldn't.

________________________________________

Greybeard at 9EAGLE9:

9eagle9 I dont think its ever about forgiving "you"--- its about the seeming other being prepared to let go of their imaginary grievances.
That frees them up.
You that is everyone in your core need to look and see if you have done some thing that you feel you need to forgive yourself for.
Let the other do what they feel they need to do--- what they think of me is non of my business. That's a simple generalisation.
There will be exceptions where I am concerned that others have miss-understood me.

Chris


____________________________________________


You walked her right into that one Chris...lol. I have no idea if she will appreciate you for that or not.

I know that Kimberley has imaginary grievances with me,she has expressed them to me by her own self admission. I simply wanted to know if she were expressing that she had imaginary grievances with me or that she had some real issue that I in my insanity had imposed on her. I don't see in any part of this thread where I imposed on anyone.

Because she decided to highlight me in this excercize I do have the right to know these things. I will not carry an error that is not of my own making, I have enough of my own to tote around.

If someone wants to make an example of me its only polite to say why one is doing so. Otherwise the entirely of the wisdom that is learned here is overlooked.

thank you Kimberley for letting go of your imaginary grievances towards me.

And thank you Chris for being honest enough to say what others will not.

_____________________________



__________________________________________

Greybeard@9EAGLE9:

To be honest I did not have Kimberley in mind--- I was just thinking on the essence of your post.

"A course in miracles" is help full---it states "You are never angry for the reason you think you are"
The wife shouted at the man--he got angry with the kids, they kicked the dog, the dog chased the cat, the cat caught the mouse and on it goes.
Also what annoys one does not push the buttons of another----so who exactly is to blame for the slight I took on board?
Trying to find out is a can of worms.

When something comes up for me I surrender the juice I get from it to The Divine.
That works well and clears a lot.
I used to get a lot of juice from being the wronged one--- after all I was such a kind person was I not?
I did not deserve to be treated like that.
Truth probably was that I was manipulative looking for favours for my kindness.
So there being no end to it surrendering the juice covers a multitude of "sins". (Emotions, feelings the works)
Thats from the essence of the teachings of Dr Hawkins.

____________________________________________

9EAGLE9 to Greybeard: I think this is a case where you should continue the honesty route and just say what you mean Chris.

To clarify: You lost me when you began 'preaching to the choir,' I know what the Course in Miracles says. I want to know what you are saying though?

_____________________________________________________

At this point Kristin, Moderation, breaks into say the conversation has gotten off topic

____________________________________________________________

9EAGLE9: i agree its getting personal, and its basically something that 'affects' and 'effects' all of us.
_____________________

Greybeard @ 9EAGLE9

I wasnt talking specifically to your self 9eagle9 after the first part.
Then I went general-- I know you studied the course.-, but many haven’t and guests read these threads.
I missed that Kimberly apologised to you as she was not named in your post, only when I saw your response did I go back to get that.
My first response would have been exactly the same if I knew then that Kimberly said what she said.

Hope that clarifies
___________________


Regards Chris
____________________________

9EAGLE @ Greybeard: No it doesn't truthfully Chris, but if no one minds I may claim this interchange for use in my thread if moderation would like to move it there for me. While i agree its getting off topic its pretty much fits there a treat and wouldn't serve as a distraction here.

-----------

And so it was moved here. I punched out some of the overtext.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

No text. The conversation was moved over here in it's entirety. I punched out some of the overtext for clarity.

Posted by AwakeInADream (here)

Posted by 9eagle9 (here)
Anyone care to take a stab at what just occurred in that conversation?

Can you provide a link to the conversation as it happened? I'm confused about who is speaking to who.

Is it about reacting to, and projecting false emotions onto others, thus falsifying your perceptions so that communication becomes unclear?
(Like addressing issues within others that are really only present in the self?)

[Jeffrey]

https://youtube.com/watch?v=UrAgb1-UKQ8

This video could go in several different threads around the forum.

I give it a 9 out of 10 ...

UPDATE: Whoops! hehe I just realized Aikisaw already posted this!

Posted by D-DAY (here)

Posted by aikisaw (here)
I found this video on Houman's Horus Ra thread. I thought it fits in well with this thread.


https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...ew-with-Maarit

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=UrAgb1-UKQ8

That video should be made compulsory viewing for, well, pretty much everyoone really.

... but particularly for budding 'new age spiritualists' and 'truthers'.

[AwakeInADream]

Perhaps it's the case that sometimes people over identify with a post and 'take it personally' when In fact it's meant to be viewed at a 'meta' level and read impersonally whilst at the same time allowing for anything useful to be applied to the self should you want to. That when reading posts sometimes a healthy detachment is required.

Of course the above conversation can never come to any resolution(not that you need it 9E9) until Kimberly can explain what she thinks you may or may not have done wrong.

Anyway, I am admittedly a bit thick sometimes(and maybe I shouldn't comment), but I would like to hear your take on the conversation if you can imagine your speaking part as the voice of someone else who you don't know.

Is there something we can all learn from this? (Probably, yes) Or are you 'hung up' about it? (I doubt that you are)

[9eagle9]

Yes . Self identifying or taking a position with their mind. No one was invited or asked to take a position in exchange between Kimberely and myself, she made it quite apparent she was thinking with emotions and when I queried her from a mental body she couldn't respond and for some reason Greybeard was compelled to respond on her behalf.

I would be curious to know why he did that when he spoke against taking a position here in this thread.

A lot more to it than that but I have to go get a cheeseburger.

Posted by AwakeInADream (here)
Perhaps it's the case that sometimes people over identify with a post and 'take it personally' when In fact it's meant to be viewed at a 'meta' level and read impersonally whilst at the same time allowing for anything useful to be applied to the self should you want to. That when reading posts sometimes a healthy detachment is required.

Of course the above conversation can never come to any resolution(not that you need it 9E9) until Kimberly can explain what she thinks you may or may not have done wrong.

Anyway, I am admittedly a bit thick sometimes(and maybe I shouldn't comment), but I would like to hear your take on the conversation if you can imagine your speaking part as the voice of someone else who you don't know.

Is there something we can all learn from this? (Probably, yes) Or are you 'hung up' about it? (I doubt that you are)

[greybeard]

Awakeinadream you have my part in your explanation, very astute "

My post was never personal but triggered as part of the essence of Lester's work--He was also friendly with Dr Hawkins.
That led to my explanation of what I did on me using Hawkins teachings.

"Perhaps it's the case that sometimes people over identify with a post and 'take it personally' when In fact it's meant to be viewed at a 'meta' level and read impersonally whilst at the same time allowing for anything useful to be applied to the self should you want to. That when reading posts sometimes a healthy detachment is required."

This copied from the link I provided below

"The Kundalini energy has been working on my body for about 20years--im now almost predominantly right brained---detail escapes me but essence I get quickly, content no--context yes. Spelling grammar---no. Sentences in complete--speaking or writing.
Focus peripheral rather than sharp.
Logic no longer linear --that creates problems--- I can jump mid sentence to something else that seems to me relevant but to my surprise others dont get the jump."

That was posted before the post on the moved part of the Lester thread.

Chris

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post619276