Graham Hancock's latest experiences with ayahuasca

[Carmody]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by christian (here)
every positive thing that psychotropics can do to you, you can do by yourself.

Fully agreed: this is the heart of it.

The key being that people desire to reach out and press the enlightenment button. They don't want to do the work and don't want to commit to the dedication required to get there.

This is where the false crutch, the shortcut of using these psychotropics, steps in. They can have it on tap, yet have their life of doing and being other things. In this way, they can still join with their everyday life and go 'tripping balls' when they want to.

The issue is one of a split. A half-way stretch, where one is not functioning properly in either space. Where either is not fully integrated. A split, not a wholeness in life.

it's like having a desire to change but refusing to give up the old habits and ways..that have to be given up on, in order to change. To get to that change in a way that is stable and long term, requires the slow steady and stable long term effort. No short cuts, not buttons to press for short time circus rides. Just get down to it in the long term, and get it done.

The drug can be used as a glimpse of potential, but the problem is that the mind is not set up for those discoveries. Taking the long ride of change and moving into it, ensures that one is ready for it, as it evolves in the person.

The reason the practitioners of this drug experience are so careful in the set-up and the process of taking and experiencing, is that they know this. That the drug and the experiencing of it.. is not a substitute for evolution and correct internal change in the long term, done over the long term.



It's a case of:

Here's the kind of experience you might have, but out of context and shape as you are not really there and do not know the meaning and shape of any of this as no matter how much you think you are prepared, you are not.

Now you know that there is a 'pay off', if you return to this regular world you occupy and get down the business of moving toward it in full and completeness. You know, real change, real dedication, real action with and of the self. And if you work your way to it, without the drugs , the context and meanings, the communication of it will be far more lucid and understood. And most importantly, one will have developed a integration system in the self that functions, whenever and wherever, which the drug ride has nothing of.

[Youniverse]

Posted by Carmody (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by christian (here)
every positive thing that psychotropics can do to you, you can do by yourself.

Fully agreed: this is the heart of it.

The key being that people desire to reach out and press the enlightenment button. They don't want to do the work and don't want to commit to the dedication required to get there.

This is where the false crutch, the shortcut of using these psychotropics, steps in. They can have it on tap, yet have their life of doing and being other things. In this way, they can still join with their everyday life and go 'tripping balls' when they want to.

The issue is one of a split. A half-way stretch, where one is not functioning properly in either space. Where either is not fully integrated. A split, not a wholeness in life.

it's like having a desire to change but refusing to give up the old habits and ways..that have to be given up on, in order to change. To get to that change in a way that is stable and long term, requires the slow steady and stable long term effort. No short cuts, not buttons to press for short time circus rides. Just get down to it in the long term, and get it done.

Excellent! And with that I am most certain I have no NEED to try any psychotropics. The only reason I would have tried them was out of curiosity and experimentation anyways. Not because I need them to grow. I actually have found that the more I simplify my life, clearing away obstructions and inessentials, the more I SEE.

[Youniverse]

Posted by Carmody (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by christian (here)
every positive thing that psychotropics can do to you, you can do by yourself.

Fully agreed: this is the heart of it.

The key being that people desire to reach out and press the enlightenment button. They don't want to do the work and don't want to commit to the dedication required to get there.

This is where the false crutch, the shortcut of using these psychotropics, steps in. They can have it on tap, yet have their life of doing and being other things. In this way, they can still join with their everyday life and go 'tripping balls' when they want to.

The issue is one of a split. A half-way stretch, where one is not functioning properly in either space. Where either is not fully integrated. A split, not a wholeness in life.

it's like having a desire to change but refusing to give up the old habits and ways..that have to be given up on, in order to change. To get to that change in a way that is stable and long term, requires the slow steady and stable long term effort. No short cuts, not buttons to press for short time circus rides. Just get down to it in the long term, and get it done.

The drug can be used as a glimpse of potential, but the problem is that the mind is not set up for those discoveries. Taking the long ride of change and moving into it, ensures that one is ready for it, as it evolves in the person.

The reason the practitioners of this drug experience are so careful in the set-up and the process of taking and experiencing, is that they know this. That the drug and the experiencing of it.. is not a substitute for evolution and correct internal change in the long term, done over the long term.



It's a case of:

Here's the kind of experience you might have, but out of context and shape as you are not really there and do not know the meaning and shape of any of this as no matter how much you think you are prepared, you are not.

Now you know that there is a 'pay off', if you return to this regular world you occupy and get down the business of moving toward it in full and completeness. You know, real change, real dedication, real action with and of the self. And if you work your way to it, without the drugs , the context and meanings, the communication of it will be far more lucid and understood. And most importantly, one will have developed a integration system in the self that functions, whenever and wherever, which the drug ride has nothing of.

It makes sense too when you consider a relatively awakened person speaking to a slumbering person about certain topics. To the 'sleepy' person the awakened person is speaking jibberish or incoherent, where to another awakened person he/she is making perfect sense.

[Curt]

A popular argument against the use of these botanicals appears to be the idea that they are a 'shortcut', which reads to me like an intellectually dishonest argument. It may not be a 'shortcut' at all. It may be a direct and viable route for some people to take. So, to frame it as 'do you want to take a shortcut' or 'do you want to get there on your own steam' is to shift the discussion in a way that favors the second point of view.

Another popular argument against these substances is the idea that anything they (these substances) can do, you can do for yourself anyway, so there's little point. But, is it really true that these substances don't offer anything that can't be gotten through meditation or study or dietary practice, etc? If so, I'd be interested to know what other means can provide a similar experience.

And then there are the ad hominem attacks on the people who write/speak favorably of these substances. They are called flaky, and past their prime, etc. People wish that such and such a writer would just get back to doing their 'good' work...

Then there are the knee-jerk anti-drug arguments that lot these substances together with all drugs.

However, certain 'substances' need not fall into the conventional classification of a 'drug', and might more aptly be called something else entirely.

And then there are the vague reports of people with extreme burnout from taking this stuff. People are reported to suffer from dementia type symptoms because of it. Such and such a person knows such and such a person who is a wreck now and it's all from having greedily taken vast amounts of ayahuasca. Is this true? Is there a causal relationship between the two?

More importantly, is it true to a significant enough degree to rule out taking these substances altogether?

There are people who abuse most any substance and whose lives are ruined by them. People should be careful with any substance. But do these specific botanicals represent a substantially greater than average rate of addiction than other 'substances'?

Are these substances classically 'addictive' at all?

And just to be clear, I'm not sure whether I will try any or all of them. But, when I see the absolutism in the opinions of those who would not have people try these things, I can't help but wonder why rational people are suddenly no longer objective, but have formed staunch opinions against the use of these things.

[write4change]

Posted by Whiskey_Mystic (here)
I have been a serious student of shamanism with a very accomplished teacher for about ten years now. It is my opinion that if you are using psychotropics, you can have great mystical experiences, but you are not in control. You are wide open to influence and infiltration. You are just along for the ride.

One of the most under-taught lessons in shamanic training is self protection. My teacher requires a foundation in self protection which involves not only energetic technique, but psychological clearing and grounding, which can take years and great effort for some. Psychotropics are the opposite of grounding, self control, and self protection.

I am of two minds with all of this. In a nutshell both are true.

First, I am in agreement with Hancock and McKenna that this is more than anything an assault on consciousness. The theory that if we did evolve into consciousness suddenly has to be the result of something. If not aliens, than the one real possibility is from eating psychedelic plants and there is strong evidence to support that theory. So it was a natural process which seems to have evolved into a sacred group experience of ritual and honoring the plant, the planet, and the experience.

Everyone I know who does this for this reason always stresses, context, environment, and experienced guides.

There is broad range of intelligence of many kinds within humans. No one has the right to decide who needs to do what with their minds. Many things are addictive to the mind. For some it is gambling, drinking, and sexing and for some it is thinking, meditating, and reading----with lots of stuff in between. Lots of drugs are given to people by doctors and big pharma to prevent them from even conceiving of an inner life. Once having a nervous breakdown or a major heart attack was a life changing experience for most people---now it is take a pill or these pills and everything returns to normal until you do finally die. Lately, we are giving this stuff to children younger and younger. Most of these pills inhibit emotion and thinking.

I had an NDE at 4 so I look back and think that was a big beginning and certainly changed the course of my life. It has allowed me to die easily and I have done so again at 26 and 58. These were much more conscious and allowed me to go deeper down and or across with less and less fear and more and more understanding. It also tempered my pride of intellect and judgment.

I have the kind of mind that does not like to be out of control ever. I also have an over sensitive body that I know does not like drugs of any kind as a whole. More than two drinks and I am sick. I have had one hangover in my life that is how bad the experience of not wanting to ever do that again is for me. Until 26, I had swallowed the whole PTB belief system. I had been married for 7 years without an orgasm and had been told my doctor it was a myth like other fairy tales. I had come to the time where I had done all the things I was told would make me happy and I was numb. I am grateful I arrived there at 26.

Then I had my first weekend of love. I had prepared well for nothing to happen and it happened inspite of me. I cannot smoke at all. So my lover of a life time kissed me deeply blowing the smoke down my throat at the same time. It was enough to truly relax me for the first time. There is much documentation that for women their first sexual release came with mj as a helper. Somehow--I think through the grace of the universe--we spontaneously did a mini tantra initiation. We have both become after our forties tantra masters and through totally separate teachings and experiences. So we both look back on that weekend with awe.

At 26 I did not know this was profound love. I was sure it was great sex and so was he. Like most of these experiences, my proof of the pudding was how did it change your life? Up to that time, I was Catholic and profoundly convinced that sex was necessary but not very nice and if I was a really good girl I would have been a nun. This experience was not just he and I but he and I enrapped with god the spirit and it was all good. This was a deeply profound experience and one I could not talk about for decades not even to my lover. At that time there was no recongnition for this, I thought I was a little crazy. But to myself I could not deny the profoundity of the experience. For me it was real. For me sex was the short cut. And that is what tantra is about which is why sex is so repressed in our society just like psychedelic plants.

And of course, I wanted it again. Now how was I going to get that. My lover and I lived three thousand miles apart and he never indicated it was anything but sex for him and so I did the same. I was a single catholic mother in a very catholic family who felt she needed to **** her brains out and of course that was not going to happen--right now. I profound experience changes your thinking---not just what was that??? but how do I get there again??? and interesting enough a concept that this was a gift from god and I was not worthy of it again.

I became aware of two things---I was a liar especially to myself and I was a hypochrondiac. I could immediately stop the hypochrondia and did but the lying took a lot of work. I left Texas moved to California permanently and stopped seeing my family for 16 years. I was afraid of being a single mother without support something I never intended for my life in any way. I was afraid of really being alone and having to make my own choices. But I began a life of feel the fear and do it anyway.

I lived in San Francisco and my lover lived in Long Beach. For ten years we saw each other once a month or so. We both did a lot of ****ing---mentally, physically, and emotiionally. We both have no memories of talking about it then. When we were together we were together. We both wanted really different things. At that time I was really materialistic and he was not. I wanted a house, a picket fence and children and he did not. We both had huge egos. I would try and plan events to trigger that first experience and failed utterly. But every once and a while, the universe would give us a gift and I began to have OBE with sex. Again I thought I was crazy and would not talk about it.

In all this, life stepped in. One boyfriend put LSD in my drink and I had a psychotic break as they call it. But I saw auras for the first time and I saw people with animal faces. I absolutely knew I was on a drug and yet.... I began feeling I was going up and started screaming I want to get down but I was foreced to go with it. That experience lastested three days. And I had flash back for three weeks and I felt very fragile. It did not help that my hippie friends would say you were psychically fragile suck it up type stuff. that was who I was at that time. I came from that experience with this concept. A person with a fever of 104 may see black things on the wall and those who are not feverish say it is a hallucination but I consider that it may take a 104 fever to see the black things on the wall that are there all the times. Since then for me reality has always been questionable.

In this period of time, my husband and I had lived apart for years but not gotten a legal divorce. I had put him through medical school and now the dissolution came into California instead of divorce. In effect, it did a way with alimony or reparations. I wanted back what I had paid to him since he never worked in our marriage. He refused but he was a doctor now. And there was a psychic diagnosis then of women not being content to a women's role or something to that effect. And on his say so I could be hospitalized for six weeks. So I was and I was drugged up on thorazine and haldol. I became a zombie. I lived in a tunnel I had no energy to escape. I knew I was there from drugs but did not care about anything even life. I got down to 72 pounds went into a coma for 9 days and had my second NDE. I met my grandfather and four other beings and I was given the choice to go or stay. I was told I was half way through my choices and I had chosen everything my parents etc. All my life until he died a year before this my grandfather always told me I had eyes bigger than my stomach and I always bit off more than I can chew. So I chose way too much for this single incarnation against the advice of my spiritual guides but I was stubborned and determined than and this was the result of free choice--mine. So I got back in the body which was really ****ing painful and mostly destroyed and took a whole year to return to reasonable normal. My reward was hearing music the whole time which promptly stopped exactly one year later. This time I had no desire to talk to anyone about this NDE but it took me seven years to totally process it.

This time I took up the role of the conscious seeker which I have never given up. I pursued becoming a tantric master at 45 and sex has remained my short cut. Ironically, I lived a celebrate life since 1997 but I think and study sex a lot. After 28 years, my lover and I found each other on the internet. He now lives in Guam. For the first time in our lives, we learned to speak intimately on the internet. At 65, I had the greatest sex in my life and I am pleased to find that to be true. This is the only man I have loved heart mind body and soul and loving him as been a process within me. Knowing that for sure became the final integration. We still want different things. He has built a small empire there and he is now the materialist and I am not. And so it goes.


What bothers me most on this site is the judgment we keep going to and the ego defences we use. The world is diverse and nature is constantly trying something different. We are no better or worse---we are different. My big bias remains being intolerant of intolerance.

I do not know if I got this thread all topic, I only know for the first time in a long time, I felt compelled to write this.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by CurtisW (here)
And then there are the vague reports of people with extreme burnout from taking this stuff.

Not vague at all. If you take the word "vague" out of the above, that sentence is quite true.

I could go into detail, including the book the person has written and their website, but feel it wouldn't be appropriate to name them here as they are a semi-public figure (not Graham Hancock himself, btw.)

This person has undergone a marked and long-lasting personality change (at least one year long with no sign of any reversion), is far less sharp intellectually, and has demonstrated substantial lack of personal integrity (another change). Everyone who knows him has remarked on this. It really is as if there is another being there who has taken over.

People are reported to suffer from dementia type symptoms because of it.

That's correct.

[I]Such and such a person knows such and such a person who is a wreck now and it's all from having greedily taken vast amounts of ayahuasca. Is this true?

Yes -- but I'd take out the word "greedy" (apparently it is often very unpleasant to take). In the case of the person mentioned above, it seems to have became an emotional dependence.

Is there a causal relationship between the two?

Yes, I'd say beyond reasonable doubt.

[confused]

Posted by CurtisW (here)
Also, I'm wondering whether the term 'shortcut' is really apt in describing the use of these substances.

It seems a sort of judgement-laden term that frames the debate in a less than objective way.

It may not be a shortcut at all. It may be a direct and viable route for some people.

Well said. I agree that if it is used/abused with the intention of it being a shortcut, then this is problematic. However, these substances can very well kickstart one's journey toward enlightenment, toward truth. It is something that can show you where you want to go, or what you need to do, when it has before been hidden from you or you have been hiding from it.

Some people like David Icke, and Bill Hicks, are examples of when these kinds of substances can be beneficial. Bill Hicks and his friend met aliens when tripping on mushrooms that explained to them the nature of reality. This I think was a truly transformative experience for him that he may have never experienced before his death.

Of course, I only think this argument holds until the first time you "get it." Afterwards I think it can be considered abusing it and dangerous. If you are already aware enough that you are on the journey, then I don't think you need the substances. The only truly psychedelic substance I've ever taken (not counting weaker substances like marijuana) was mushrooms. Great few experiences until the last time I tried it 8 years ago and I had a bad trip. I thought I could literally "see" the evil around me. I didn't actually see anything but I could "feel" a dark, greenish haze everywhere. I felt surrounded by it. I felt like I was going to die, surrounded by hell. Terrible experience.

Most of my experiences with drugs have been positive, and overall transformative. It is unfortunate that I was an adolescent when I started going down the drug road with no true guidance in such matters. I became addicted but I believe if I was older and had better guidance that would not have happened.

[RMorgan]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
Re ayahusaca in particular, I know someone personally here in Ecuador who has over-used ayahuasca and as a summary it can be said that he is "no longer himself." It seems that there is another being in his body now, and he is no longer at home. Be very careful... you can open the door to anything, and anything may come in and make itself very much at home. After that, it can be difficult or even almost impossible to get it to go back where it came from.

I know dozens of people like this, Bill.

Ayahuasca is extremely potent; Definitively not be used regularly.

The problem is that its use is attached to religious rituals, and people start taking it every week.

After a while, ayahuasca users become something like love and light zombies; There´s a lot of brainwashing in ayahuasca rituals.

The good news is that, in most cases, the effect is not permanent, so most people go back to being themselves, some months after stopping using it.

Raf.

[Curt]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by CurtisW (here)
And then there are the vague reports of people with extreme burnout from taking this stuff.

Not vague at all. If you take the word "vague" out of the above, that sentence is quite true.

I could go into detail, including the book the person has written and their website, but feel it wouldn't be appropriate to name them here as they are a semi-public figure (not Graham Hancock himself, btw.)

This person has undergone a marked and long-lasting personality change (at least one year long with no sign of any reversion), is far less sharp intellectually, and has demonstrated substantial lack of personal integrity (another change). Everyone who knows him has remarked on this. It really is as if there is another being there who has taken over.

People are reported to suffer from dementia type symptoms because of it.

That's correct.

[I]Such and such a person knows such and such a person who is a wreck now and it's all from having greedily taken vast amounts of ayahuasca. Is this true?

Yes -- but I'd take out the word "greedy" (apparently it is often very unpleasant to take). In the case of the person mentioned above, it seems to have became an emotional dependence.

Is there a causal relationship between the two?

Yes, I'd say beyond reasonable doubt.

Information like this should absolutely be considered when making the personal decision whether to explore one of these substances. There's no question about that. People need a full, fair picture in which each piece of evidence is viewed in context.

[blufire]

I have also always wondered why someone who uses ayahuasca or other entheogens to achieve enlightenment or other elusive insights, why do they have to use them over and over or increasingly stronger drugs.

Why can they not retain what they ‘see’ when using these substances? It has been my experience that when I finally understand a deeper Truth, I don’t forget it . . . it becomes part of who I am.

I believe if you are not ‘ready’ to receive enlightenment or Truths or Insights then you will not fully understand or hear them.

I also believe we ‘hear or see’ what we are meant to in this lifetime. I feel it is far more important what we DO with these insights once we do remember them than the desire to hear or see more and more.

[Christine]

Posted by CurtisW (here)
Graham Hancock, Terence McKenna and others have stated plainly that these botanicals are not for everyone. And that they aren't to be taken lightly or to be used recreationally. Ever.

Whiskey Mystic's comment about the need for grounding and protection in altered states seems reasonable also, especially in light of the experience Graham referenced in the OP.

I haven't made up my mind about these substances, and have not ruled out their use.

Something Joe Rogan said in his interview with Graham (in a post above) has caught my attention. They were words to the effect that 'getting through all one's own misgivings and apprehensions about ayahuasca and arriving at the decision to try it is a first test of sorts, (to weed out the merely curious, perhaps.)'

This seems true of any potentially dangerous course of action that might result in greater knowledge. It doesn't mean it should be avoided out of hand.

Also, I'm wondering whether the term 'shortcut' is really apt in describing the use of these substances.

It seems a sort of judgement-laden term that frames the debate in a less than objective way.

It may not be a shortcut at all. It may be a direct and viable route for some people.

While I agree in theory, I would again underline to the need to exercise extreme precaution. For most people I would say they are consciously or unconsciously seeking a shortcut. Anyone who is a serious student knows the intense amount work involved in personal clearing that is necessary to have any direct experience of personal clarity.

When used properly in the right circumstance and under the guidance of a fully ethical being it is possible to have a direct healing experience, I would not discount that. However, this is the large caveat - those set of perimeters are sorely lacking in our current world. And since the use of this powerful medicine comes from a people living in the natural world, relatively uncorrupted by the things we are bombarded with it is possible their relationship to the effects of ayahuasca would be distinct from someone embedded in the modern, contaminated paradigm.

I have more often than not observed a warped psyche as the result of the use of ayahuasca.

[RMorgan]

Posted by CurtisW (here)
Information like this should absolutely be considered when making the personal decision whether to explore one of these substances. There's no question about that. People need a full, fair picture in which each piece of evidence is viewed in context.

Hey Curt,

Well, using it a couple of times, just to experience with its effects a bit, is, most of the time, harmless.

However, in South-America, its use is only allowed in religious context, so people are obliged to attend to such religious rituals to take it legally; That´s where the danger is.

When your mind is driven to such an altered state of consciousness, you become very susceptible to brainwashing, and that´s what happens in such cults.

I´d say people don´t become addicted to ayahuasca itself, they become addicted to the religion, then, just like Christians go the the mass every Sunday, people start talking ayahuasca every week.

As a side note, people with family cases of mental illness should absolutely stay away from it; It most certainly is a one way trip for people who are genetically susceptible to develop mental illness.

Raf.

[Freed Fox]

From what I understand, it would be very difficult to actually become addicted to ayahuasca. It is not described as a pleasant experience (bodily). Even spiritually, it can expose you to some very harsh lessons. Not impossible, of course. With the confluence of personality, genetics, and substance, addiction can take almost any form.

I wholeheartedly agree with those advocating caution above all other considerations here. Regardless of what one believes about the substances and their potential merits, they are not to be trifled with. Again, the right combination of personality, genetics, and substance can produce either very positive or very negative results.

Having said all of that, I would very much like to try ayahuasca someday, but only with an experienced shaman and in the proper setting. I think, because of that, it will surely either manifest or not. I believe as blufire suggested; the experiences we require are always presented over the course of our lives. Some people need to take certain avenues above others. It may merely be a matter of compatibility.

[blufire]

As a side note, people with family cases of mental illness should absolutely stay away from it; It most certainly is a one way trip for people who are genetically susceptible to develop mental illness.

Hey Raf . . . . . I am highly aware of this aspect. Both my grandmother and my mother developed dementia or alzheimer’s. It is my understanding that this is genetic and even though they both developed this ‘state’ well into their 80’s it is without a doubt the most difficult thing to be a part of. It is called the Long Goodbye for a very real reason.

I take herbals that support good mental health and brain function but am aware that this may well be my destiny in the next 30 to 40 years.

I am resolved that at the point I feel I am slipping into this world, I have a cabin deep into the mountains that no one is aware of and this will become my final ‘resting place’.

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

Posted by RMorgan (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
Re ayahusaca in particular, I know someone personally here in Ecuador who has over-used ayahuasca and as a summary it can be said that he is "no longer himself." It seems that there is another being in his body now, and he is no longer at home. Be very careful... you can open the door to anything, and anything may come in and make itself very much at home. After that, it can be difficult or even almost impossible to get it to go back where it came from.

I know dozens of people like this, Bill.

Ayahuasca is extremely potent; Definitively not be used regularly.

The problem is that its use is attached to religious rituals, and people start taking it every week.

After a while, ayahuasca users become something like love and light zombies; There´s a lot of brainwashing in ayahuasca rituals.

The good news is that, in most cases, the effect is not permanent, so most people go back to being themselves, some months after stopping using it.

Raf.

This thread seems a bit one sided. Peruvian shamans have used Aya every month for their whole lives and are wiser than most.
Mayn live until they are in their hundreds. Don't blame Aya for people losing it.
Its about personal responsibility IMO.
Blame the person taking it and their over use and lack of moderation or training.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by blufire (here)
I have also always wondered why someone who uses ayahuasca or other entheogens to achieve enlightenment or other elusive insights, why do they have to use them over and over or increasingly stronger drugs.

They don't. I didn't. The truth I discovered from it, I still carry with me and build on.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by RMorgan (here)

Posted by CurtisW (here)
Information like this should absolutely be considered when making the personal decision whether to explore one of these substances. There's no question about that. People need a full, fair picture in which each piece of evidence is viewed in context.

Hey Curt,

Well, using it a couple of times, just to experience with its effects a bit, is, most of the time, harmless.

However, in South-America, its use is only allowed in religious context, so people are obliged to attend to such religious rituals to take it legally; That´s where the danger is.

I don't think this is true. You can take it legally without being a church member I think. There are Aya churches but its best to keep away. Take it with the Shipibo or some other amazon peoples who have no religion.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by RMorgan (here)
There´s a lot of brainwashing in ayahuasca rituals.

Which ones?

[Neal]

Posted by vje2 (here)
...

I recently had a psychic reading done by Carol Clarke and she told me that I have the ability to enter other realms of reality without the need to take any drugs. However, I have no idea how to trigger entering into these realms and what I may encounter.

With ayuhasca, at least you have a shaman that guides you, but by myself...well...frightening to say the least.
Although I've been told not to have any fear, there is no need to feel fear.

But...Graham Hancock has not made it any easier for me, after I've read his letters (4 & 5 especially).

Has anyone experienced something similar, with or without the use of drugs?
By the way, I do not smoke, neither marihuana, nor cigarettes...I only did it for the fun of it.

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
--------

I've never taken drugs in my life, but I'd venture to say that my mind is fairly wide open. There are other techniques which work extremely well, but none of them are shortcuts.

Bill, if I may ask, what "other techniques" were you referring to?

I ask this because I am someone who is curious of the consciousness opening/raising aspects of some psychotropic botanical products and I do have a respect for the possible effects or outcomes that can happen from use/abuse. However, I understand that I have this capability within myself right now and can do this without drugs or external aids, but the amount of information out there (in the forms of books, videos, websites, etc.) is daunting and I have so far done my best to wade through it all...

Does anybody else have any suggestions on what techniques work?

[write4change]

Does anybody else have any suggestions on what techniques work?[/QUOTE]

Well, there are spontaneous happenings like meditating on a cloud while lying on the earth to find yourself in another time and place. That is why there are pligrimages like the Way of St. James. Martin Sheen stars in a movie about it. Some books and movies will lead to lucid dreaming that leads to more door openings if you are into going there. I think a lot of science fiction authors do that particularly Jules Verne and Edgar Rice Bourroughs reading these young open my mind and imagination and led to similar experiences I felt were possible but not probable that I now could express as congruence theory of manifesting.

Then there is sex and tantric ritual sex. I address that on post 25 which most of the guys here will not touch. I think sex as a short cut to profound experience is harder for men because it is external for men and internal for women. To invite a man to really come inside and grok and make him feel this a real soft place to fall is not their concept of sex.

[RMorgan]

Posted by EYES WIDE OPEN (here)
I don't think this is true. You can take it legally without being a church member I think. There are Aya churches but its best to keep away. Take it with the Shipibo or some other amazon peoples who have no religion.[COLOR="red"]

Well, South-American nations protect indigenous cultures to some extent, so yes, you can have Ayahuasca during indigenous rituals, just like many other indigenous potent hallucinogenics drugs.

However, as an example, if you start to produce it at home, or use it as a recreational drug, at least here in Brazil it is considered a crime.

The most disseminated Ayahuasca centered religion in South-America is Santo Daime. This is where the brainwashing happens; They drink it, then spend 12 hours or more dancing and singing repetitive Christian hymns; As a religion, it´s got no solidity at all. It´s a poorly balanced mix of indigenous rites and Christianity, led by unenlightened people. Everyone who became affiliated with this religion, become "zombified" after a while.

As for taking it with a Shaman, well, I have no experience with it. Honestly, I´ve never met a genuine indigenous Shaman. I´ve met many charlatans, though.

Raf.

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

I guess I have been lucky. I met maybe 10 that are the real deal. Shamans in their own communities.

[Freed Fox]

EYES WIDE; were they all based in South America? And were any of them part of a larger religious group (like Santo Daime), or were they unaffiliated as such? Asking out of curiosity, mostly... Thanks.