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Thread: The Vegetarian Myth

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    Default Re: The Vegetarian Myth

    Food is an energy source, it holds a vibration like most everything else. There are different vibrations to different kinds of foods. people as well have vibrations, each person is like a relay station or a radio station and the most suitable food for them will be the one that will match their own personal vibration. A pound of flour can not be compared to a pound of lettuce or to a pound of meat since Each has it's own frequency.

    Some people prefer clasical music, others like hard rock, others enjoy listening to folk music. it will always be about the matching of vibrations between ourselfs and what is out there, dynamics between people are also influenced by the subtle frequencies each person's holds. Souls in all shapes or forms are vibrating according to a level of consciousness. different body's need different foods and that has something (but not everything) to do with awarness and that can change sometimes radically throughout one's life as their awarness grows. however. there are more parameters that count, since as humans we are complexed beings and things are not as strictly as black or white.
    Last edited by Limor Wolf; 28th March 2013 at 14:25.

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    Default Re: The Vegetarian Myth

    As I've mentioned before, maybe the carnivorous are destined to return as the battery farmed until they attach more value to life.

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    Default Re: The Vegetarian Myth

    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)
    As I've mentioned before, maybe the carnivorous are destined to return as the battery farmed until they attach more value to life.
    That could be a valuable lesson.

    Perhaps vegans should return as rabbits which are shredded to pieces by a combine as the grain field is harvested.

    Or maybe as a fish dying a slow death from poisonous runoff from pesticides protecting the grain field from insects.

    Food production, whether animal or plant, does not not need to as painful and as destructive as it is -- let's fix it together, with respect for ALL life.
    Before you speak, ask yourself, is it kind, is it necessary, is it true, does it improve on the silence?

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    Default Re: The Vegetarian Myth

    Sorry there is doubt about Karma now! Think about it, what imperfect being demands punishment for a persons misdirections, the newly enlightened tend to punish them selves.

    killing more rabbits won't serve any purpose. even if they are occupied by ignorant souls??

    A moment of irony perhaps we see the cycle here - perhaps we fools demand that the meat eater is eaten, therefore the carnage continues

    It is not right that we inflict our own primitive justice on something unimaginably wise/and perfect.

    Until we can forgive everything and send out genuine love to all other beings we will remain in the 3rd dimension.

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    Default Re: The Vegetarian Myth

    Quote Posted by alamojo (here)
    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)
    As I've mentioned before, maybe the carnivorous are destined to return as the battery farmed until they attach more value to life.
    That could be a valuable lesson.

    Perhaps vegans should return as rabbits which are shredded to pieces by a combine as the grain field is harvested.

    Or maybe as a fish dying a slow death from poisonous runoff from pesticides protecting the grain field from insects.

    Food production, whether animal or plant, does not not need to as painful and as destructive as it is -- let's fix it together, with respect for ALL life.
    At least the rabbit would have some chance of escaping it's fate, same goes for the fish........

    ......and your last sentence is, I'm afraid, a thinly veiled oxymoron. How can you produce animal food whilst maintaining respect for all life?

    Where is the respect in violating a sentient animal's right to life?

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    Default Re: The Vegetarian Myth

    Quote Posted by sheme (here)
    Sorry there is doubt about Karma now! Think about it, what imperfect being demands punishment for a persons misdirections, the newly enlightened tend to punish them selves.

    killing more rabbits won't serve any purpose. even if they are occupied by ignorant souls??

    A moment of irony perhaps we see the cycle here - perhaps we fools demand that the meat eater is eaten, therefore the carnage continues

    It is not right that we inflict our own primitive justice on something unimaginably wise/and perfect.

    Until we can forgive everything and send out genuine love to all other beings we will remain in the 3rd dimension.
    Hi Sheme. I'm not sure who or what you are insinuating is demanding punishment or is newly enlightened, but anyway, my statement wasn't demanding anything. Gently requesting contemplation, perhaps but there was no demand in the sentence. The cycle I suggested could be more likened to the proverbial child putting it's hand in the fire. No judgement ensues but the child still experiences pain...........and then it learns.

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    Default Re: The Vegetarian Myth

    My passion, age and naivety often culminate in causing inflammation when threads of this nature reappear on Avalon and for that I apologise. It really isn't my intention.

    I would like to share an essay on the subject by someone whom many on Avalon have a deep respect and admiration for: Wade Frasier.

    Wade has an eloquence about him which may hopefully serve some purpose in the delivery of this message.

    Quote A Vegetarian's Journey

    By Wade Frazier



    I decided to write this essay because I became embroiled in the vegetarian issue, a controversy I did not know existed until 2000, when I was surprised to read an article that attacked vegetarianism, in an alternative medicine magazine. It was framed under the rubric of myth debunking, which is a popular strategy these days.[1] I heard people express concern over the health dangers of being vegetarian when I became one during the 1970s, but those concerns seemed groundless, and I never heard anybody voice it since. I had been a happy vegetarian for many years when I read that article, and I felt like Rip Van Winkle, sleeping through a controversy that has apparently not abated. I began surfing the Internet to read other writings by that author and his chums, and the more I read, the angrier I became. Some of their work read like Elizabeth’s Whelan’s, with links to CSICOP and other establishment defenders.

    The author put in a disclaimer that the meat interests were not bankrolling him, and perhaps they were not, but his work was nearly as supportive of their interests as Whelan and Steve Milloy are supportive of their patrons. I wrote a furious letter to the editor, and I was shocked when they published it a few months later, with the author’s rebuttal.[2] That author betrayed his own anti-vegetarian fervor by making the irrelevant observation in his riposte that Hitler was a vegetarian (which is not true). The more I read their work, the clearer their mission became.[3] They also assail the soybean.

    This subject is better served by discussing issues that have been muddled by both pro-vegetarian and anti-vegetarian advocates. Both can miss and confuse important issues. The United States has the world’s biggest flesh-eating culture, as well as history’s fattest humans, and the United States is by far the world’s largest purveyor of violence. Flesh eating has something to do with the situation, but is not the whole story. Americans are also history’s most sedentary people, and eat more “junk food” than any people on earth. When my father reversed his heart disease by our family going “health nut” in 1970, vegetarianism was not part of the regimen. Probably at least 90% of American health problems would disappear if Americans had live food (preferably organically grown) comprise at least 60-70% of their diets, and gave up tobacco and alcohol.

    I became a vegetarian in 1978, going vegan, just to see what it might be like. Profound changes happened to my body, such as my body odor disappearing, and the next year was the only one during my college athletic career that I was not injured. I also lost ten pounds, as I did not even try to get any protein. I was vegan for eighteen months, and then I wanted to become an All-American in my event (the javelin throw), and I knew I could not do it at six foot, one inch and 142 pounds. I then ate six hard-boiled eggs a day and weight trained, and gained twenty pounds of muscle in three months during 1980, but my body odor also became fierce. I largely retained that muscle, and have been a vegetarian since 1987.

    I was forced into giving up my vegetarian ways when I moved to Los Angeles to work in the high-rise world in 1983. After I left LA, I became a vegetarian again. Although I have not quite become a vegan again, my home diet has been virtually vegan for years, with cheese and eggs only eaten when I do not eat at home. One day, probably before long, I will become a vegan again. Although I never advertised that I was a vegetarian, it is difficult to hide that fact when I eat with other people. During the past fifteen years, people have continually called me a vegetarian (sometimes with disdain, sometimes with awe, and sometimes with humor), as if that described my primary relationship to food, and I thought it was the prescription for good health. Abstaining from flesh does not have much to do with a healthy diet. Vegetarians whose diets are mostly processed food are not eating very healthily. Eating steaks everyday is also not so good for people (and hell on the cow), but if I had to choose, not eating live food is more harmful to human health than eating flesh. Humans are the only animals that eat dead food, and the frequency of our degenerative diseases is also unique on earth (pets also eat dead food, and get human-style degenerative diseases).

    Another misconception I wish to slay, which made me angriest at the work of those anti-vegetarian crusaders, is that probably less than one percent of vegetarians are the kind of activists that populate PETA and other militant organizations, such as those who “liberate” experimental animals by sabotaging laboratories. Animal experiments are evil business, and this will be a happier world when people stop killing animals to eat them, but the ends do not justify the means. Those vegetarian activists can be like those misguided “black bloc” protestors (for those who are not outright provocateurs) who have been at anti-globalization demonstrations, giving the police a convenient excuse to use billy clubs, plastic bullets and pepper spray on non-militant protestors. Those vegetarian militants are operating from the victim principle, not the creator principle. I have met many vegetarians, and never met a zealous or “doctrinaire” one (and neither has my wife, who is largely a vegetarian). The author of the “myths of vegetarianism” article, as well as his crusading pals, consistently portrays all vegetarians as fanatics, using the straw man tactic. No vegetarian I ever met preached to anybody else about vegetarianism. I have rarely gotten into “vegetarian-rap” with any of my “brethren.” They all considered their vegetarianism a personal and private decision.

    Sometimes the vegetarians I met did it for health reasons (the owner of the medical lab I worked at did it for his health), and other times for ethical or spiritual reasons. All three reasons influence me today. The first time I became a vegetarian, it was for none of those reasons. The second and last time, it was for health. Flesh eating took a toll on my body that I could feel, and eating red meat made me sick, so even when I was forced into giving up my vegetarian ways for years, I avoided red meat whenever possible (just being around it can make me nauseous). Today, I am a vegetarian for ethical/spiritual reasons more than any other. My journey made me more aware and sensitive to the suffering of others, and I slowly came to realize that if I did not need to eat animals to live, I should not support robbing them of their lives. To decide to lessen our burden on the planet we live on and our fellow life forms is a profoundly personal and spiritual decision. As John Robbins and others have made clear, human carnivorism’s toll on earth’s environment is tremendous.[4] Spiritually advanced societies are mainly vegetarian, if not exclusively.

    Because of the abuse I have received over the years for being a vegetarian, I understand how such treatment can make people fanatical. To create fanatics, oppressing people is effective, as America has seen with the World Trade Center attacks and other acts of “terrorism.”

    As proto-humans left their arboreal habitat millions of years ago, they changed their diet and behavior. Tool making was about increasing their food supply, and when protohumans migrated beyond the tropics millions of years ago, killing animals and eating them was the primary substitute for their formerly fruit-eating, live food diet. Making weapons to kill animals more effectively is what allowed humans to migrate to earth’s farthest reaches. However, the same technology that allowed humans to migrate to hostile environments also allowed humans to kill each other.



    Humanity’s murderous ways are directly related to its carnivorous ways.



    With our great ape cousins, the carnivorous/murderous relationship is also seen. Chimpanzees are the most carnivorous great apes, with around 1% of their diet being mammal flesh, and perhaps 5% being insects. They are also the only great apes known to kill each other and engage in cannibalism. The mountain gorilla eats insects as the most carnivorous part of its diet. The great ape diet is two-thirds fruit, as the human diet should be. The human sweet tooth comes from our fruit-eating heritage.

    Also, humans were a little too successful with their hunter-gatherer lifestyles, and killed off all of the planet’s easily killed large animals. About 10,000 years ago the hunter-gatherer lifestyle became unsustainable on a global basis, and the Domestication Revolution began.

    The anti-vegetarian-crusader analysis of nutritional research needs to be considered in the context of their ardor. If people read their work, then read the work of John Robbins, Gabriel Cousens[5] or Gary Null, they can decide for themselves.[6] Being a vegetarian rarely, if ever, really endangers the health. There are some issues germane to the vegetarian path, such as vitamin B-12 (which is produced by bacteria living in dirt and on animals, and carnivorous humans can also have the deficiency), protein and some other nutrients, but nobody who puts forth some effort to become informed need much concern themselves with nutritional deficiencies. If all I ate were apples, then yes, I would develop nutritional deficiencies, but that is not what being a vegetarian means. There are also several definitions of vegetarianism, and some call those who eat fish and birds vegetarians, although I do not.[7]

    People have different blood types, health histories and metabolisms, and each person needs to discover what is best for them. Pure fruit diets or pure brown rice diets are not ideal, and those are the kinds of extremes that can give people health problems and vegetarianism a bad name. I am allergic to spirulina, getting it by being disinformed by 1970s vegetarian researchers regarding how much protein I really needed. For me, getting enough protein is no big deal.

    The general rule-of-thumb for an enlightened human diet is the less sentient the prey, the better off everybody is. The scale of greater-to-lesser violation of the prey is: humans, cetaceans (whales and dolphins, although they may be more sentient than humans), mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, fish, insects, plants, microscopic organisms and fruit; eating fruit is actually a symbiotic relationship with the plant. Prey-cannibalism is the greatest violation of the spirit, while eating fruit is the other end of the spectrum.

    Comparative anatomy studies clearly show that humans are ideally fruit eaters, which our great ape cousins demonstrate. Many in the anti-vegetarian crowd have compared humans to horses, rats and pigs, but the most meaningful comparison is obviously to our closest biological cousins. Classic omnivores, the bear, panda and raccoon particularly, were originally predators that adapted to eating vegetable matter, and their anatomy does not have much correspondence to human anatomy, especially regarding suitability for a carnivorous diet. From our teeth, jaws and saliva, to stomach acid volume and concentration, to intestinal length, humans are obviously not of carnivorous design. The adaptation to meat to extend the human range and numbers came with a price, warfare and violence only part of it.

    Humans can be carnivorous, and have been for many millennia. However, there is also dramatic evidence of certain diseases disappearing when societies suddenly became vegetarians (such as Denmark under Nazi occupation during World War II – colon cancer nearly disappeared). There is plenty of literature and research on the health benefits of a vegetarian diet, but there are some risks, if it is not done with care. None are that serious, but they exist. Some education is recommended if a person wants to try a vegetarian diet.

    Mystical students have long known that eating flesh lowers the spiritual awareness. Eastern masters have stated since ancient times that the less flesh consumed, the higher the enlightenment attained, and have advocated vegetarianism for the spiritual initiate. It partly has to do with the fear the animal experiences when it is killed. Sometimes, lowering the spiritual vibration can be useful. Channels often eat meat after channeling, to help “ground” them. Many also smoke or are overweight. Those are not ideal grounding mechanisms (I hike in the mountains with fifty pounds on my back to ground myself), although they work. Killing and eating animals definitely creates negative karma, which can directly affect the body.

    Gandhi regularly discussed vegetarianism, and said that those who did so for “moral” reasons used vegetarianism to help them evolve to higher spiritual states, while those who merely did it for health reasons did it selfishly, received limited benefit from it, and were usually the ones who abandoned vegetarianism. He said that vegetarianism that was all about food and disease was, “the worst way of going about the business.” He also said,



    “The Spiritualists hold, and the practice of the religious teachers of all religions… shows that nothing is more detrimental to the spiritual faculty of man than the gross feeding on flesh. The most ardent vegetarians attribute the agnosticism, materialism, and the religious indifference of the present age to too much flesh-eating and wine-drinking, and the consequent disappearance, partial or total, of the spiritual faculty in man.”[8]



    What hit me between the eyes when reading that was that the two behaviors I was forced into doing when I began my career in Los Angeles was drinking alcohol and eating flesh. In retrospect, when I discovered how worthless my profession was, I wonder how “knowing” such behavior was. Not from a conspiratorial sense, but there is often a deadening of one’s humanity that accompanies the descent into the business world, and forcing people to drink alcohol and eat flesh was part of that process. Those in “the club” were unconscious, and were making sure I became like them. It was the most ruthless work environment I ever encountered, with the personal lives of my colleagues largely disasters.

    Gandhi’s pacifist activism and his vegetarianism were no coincidence. Also, it is no coincidence that meat and alcohol (and formerly tobacco) are military and corporate staples. Fruit is the ideal food for spiritual reasons also, as eating fruit is a symbiosis with plants; it does not harm them and helps spread their seeds.

    After years of being a vegetarian, a perspective gradually came into focus as I looked at flesh food: it is a carcass, once part of a living, breathing creature, one not much different than me. Today, I have a visceral revulsion toward meat eating that far exceeds any thoughts I might have about its effect on my health or spirit. There is no will power in my vegetarian ways, as I can barely fathom putting flesh in my mouth. I am not laying that trip on anybody else, but that is a “hazard” of being a long-time vegetarian: flesh eating can eventually be seen as disgusting, horrifying, and a cousin to cannibalism. I passed the point-of-no-return in the 1980s.

    For those who feel they must eat animal flesh, the most spiritual and ethical way of doing it is to look the animal in the eye while taking its life, and thanking it. Eating it raw and on the spot is also the “natural” way to do it. Anything less is not being a true carnivore. If that style of carnivorous behavior seems revolting, then it might be helpful to ponder why, as that is the most ethical, spiritual and healthy way to eat flesh. People can also get parasites that way, which is another reason humans are not ideal carnivores; true carnivores have far more acid and a far more acidic pH in their stomachs, which kills parasites. Cooking flesh destroys a great deal of its nutritional value, and is another unnatural human practice.

    Vegetarianism is part of the path to a healed humanity and planet, and some of humanity’s darker possible futures have animal abuse as signposts of their degeneration, but nobody should be coerced, bribed or deceived into the practice. It is a deeply personal issue, and one that all people need to decide for themselves.

    Footnotes

    [1] The article was Stephen Byrnes’ “The Myths of Vegetarianism” in the Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients, July 2000, pp. 72-81.

    [2] See Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients, October 2000, pp. 93-94.

    [3] They then engaged in an advertising campaign (they have arrogated the pioneering work of Weston Price, but that is a story for another time - in 2009, John Robbins weighed in on the issue). They had an ad for their material in Nexus Magazine, in the January-February 2001 issue, p. 70, and their headline nearly said it all: “Confused about nutrition? We set the record straight.” That is a bold claim. Then their ad purported to debunk myths about nutrition, and the first “myth” they debunked was, “Animal fats cause cancer and heart disease.” Their “truth” was that animal fats “protect” against cancer and heart disease, and vegetable oils cause it. The Beef Council could not have said it better.

    [4] See Robbins’ Diet for a New America.

    [5] See his Conscious Eating.

    [6] See, for instance, Gary Null’s The Vegetarian Handbook and John Robbins’ The Food Revolution.

    [7] See Gary Null’s The Vegetarian Handbook, p.4.

    [8] Mohandas K. Gandhi, in a speech given before the London Vegetarian Society. See Ethical Vegetarianism, edited by Kerry Walters and Lisa Portmess, pp. 136-144.

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    Default Re: The Vegetarian Myth

    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    Quote Posted by Daughter of Time (here)
    Quote Posted by Abhaya (here)
    Quote Posted by Daughter of Time (here)
    I think it's wonderful that we are questioning more and more what we put into our bodies and becoming more aware of what's best for our bodies, the animals and the environment, even if this subject does ruffle feathers on a regular basis.

    In an ideal world, we would all learn to become vegetarians naturally, without forcing ourselves to do so, without suffering the consequences of shocking the body to accept a different lifestyle, But we do not live in an ideal world and tolerance is required for the time being. To ask a carnivore to suddenly become vegan is quite unreasonable as the body might go into a state of shock and suffer tremendously and become very ill.

    The masses eat McDonald's. I do not judge them, but I do question their colossal ignorance. Do they really realize what they're putting into their bodies and how detrimental those eating habits are to themselves and the planet in general? If they really did understand, would they still do it?

    Sometimes the mind and the soul reach a level of understanding whereby they know that eating meat is not necessarily the ideal way to feed oneself. But the body is often left behind, not reaching the same level of consciousness as the mind and the soul, thereby still needing to feed on animals as it was used to. Instead of judging the body and depriving it of its needs, let the changes come gradually. First learn to eat less meat and make sure it comes from a local farm where animals are treated humanely, where they are allowed to feed, roam and play on large pastures, where the killing is done with as little trauma as possible.

    Years ago I was invited to a dinner party where the host is a Buddhist and so were most of the guests. There was a meat dish on the buffet table. I was quite surprised. Some Buddhists eat meat, not because they want to, but because their bodies have not caught up with their minds.

    I feel it is far worse to judge another for their needs than to feed the body what it needs while it needs it.

    Developing mindfulness is what's most important: mindfulness in what we put into our bodies, mindfulness in judging others, mindfulness in realizing that people will have to grow at their own paces.

    I feel there is nothing wrong with discussing our eating lifestyles provided that ideas are exchanged without judgment. If you're a vegetarian, please do not judge omnivores. If you're an omnivore, please do not make fun of vegetarians.

    And I have not read the book discussed in the OP but I probably will. Not every body is meant to be vegetarian, at least, not at this point in time and under the planet's current level of consciousness.

    So let us learn to accept each other whether we agree with each other or not, and maybe some day we will all reach a level of consciousness whereby we know exactly what our bodies need and we learn to recognize when we are ready to make favorable changes and gently nudge others to make those changes as well, without judgment, without anger, without self-righteousness, but with understanding and heart.
    Some excellent points. However I think you are making a bit of a stretch where you refer to so many "bodies" not being ready for a vegetarian diet. What exactly do you base that on? If someone makes an educated and nutritionally complete switch to vegetarianism then the switch is simply one of overcoming mental cravings, I can attest to this with my own experience. As I was not (nor am I yet) in any special enlightened state which allows me to not eat meat. I had no issues with my body craving meat,due to missing nutrients as I was making sure to get all the necessary nutrients in my vegetarian diet. I had cravings for the taste of things like hot wings. But found so many ways to satisfy that tasting experience (which is derived mostly from spice and not the chicken itself, via vegetarian options. A matter of change in habits. Still not the easiest change I agree. But I fear when you say that someone may not have a body ready for vegetarianism, that you open a similar window as the above article. One which allows someone to feel they don't have a choice in what they eat. When the fact is excluding extreme medical conditions we all have the choice. And we all have some responsibility for that choice.
    All I meant to say is that some people simply don't do well on a vegetarian diet even when following all the protocols of vegetarianism. Their bodies don't do well. Their energy levels drop. They feel sickly. I know people who have repeatedly tried to be vegetarians but their bodies did not operate as well as they did before becoming vegetarians. Maybe they have conditions they are not aware of. Maybe they gave up too soon. I don't know.

    These discussions still seem to instigate adversity so perhaps I should simply learn to stay away from threads about vegetarianism in the future.
    I certainly meant no hostility towards you. I do differ with your opinion, where you say that it is a common occurrence that one who switches to a nutritionally complete vegetarian diet often will experiance problems, lack of energy, sickness ect. I would say that if someone switches to any kind of diet that is nutritionally unbalanced, then yes there will be problems. I will also say that a vegan diet is the most difficult diet as far as ensuring that you get everything the body needs, (however a non vegan vegetarian diet, on the other hand, is a pretty easy these days). But as I stated before it is a fact that entire civilizations have been living vegetarian for hundreds if not thousands of years. Not just the enlightened yogis of India but the beggars and thieves as well. Body is one thing and spirit is another. And the human body in this day in age does not need meat to survive. It doesn't matter what state your consciousness is at. If you give your body the nutrients it needs you will live and thrive. It does not matter whether you get those nutrients from a plant based diet or a meat based one. And again while I know you did not mean it this way, I feel the need to say that the idea that a magority of bodies are not able to handle a vegetarian diet (note there are some extreme medical cases), is dangerous because it might allow people on the fence to assume that "hey my body probably isn't meant for a vegetarian diet", and therefor feel they have an excuse to bypass the ethical and personally responsible decision to choose what they eat.

    One clarification upon further thought. There are some extreme examples of breatharians transcending the needs of the body and living off air and sunlight. And one could argue that "hey if they can live off sunlight and others can't, then maybe some people can live off veggies while others cannot". But these people make up a .0001 percent of the population. And you could say they have achieved a mystic power to a large degree, which enables their abilities. Do you need mystic powers to be a vegetarian? I doubt it because I just saw a commercial that said you can now get veggie burgers at Burger King..... Point, not everyone can be a breatharian, but this is on such a different level then veggies vs meat that it hardly applies


    Lastly..... You say that you have personally known people who have switched to and followed nutritionally complete vegetarian diets, and watched them become ill, weak, sickly and so on. Sorry but I don't buy it..... Even if they became sick while being vegetarian, there are so many other unrelated things that could have made them sick. Vegetarianism far from insures perfect health. People are quick to blame an illness on it however especially if they recently made a switch in diets. Can u really say with certainty that they got ill from a lack of meat? Also if they were someone who was questioning what they eat and where it came from, and as a result, trying a less violent diet, don't you think they would be at a conscious level( if in fact the average person needs to raise their consciousness level to be vegetarian) to do just that and at least live off veggies ( which I repeat is no great mystic or spiritual feat)?
    I do realize that you meant no hostility towards me. Thank you.

    And although I stated I should probably not engage in further discussions on vegetarianism, I feel I should reply to your post.

    I am very aware that there are cultures and civilizations which have existed on vegetarianism for thousands of years and they are doing perfectly well. If these cultures were to suddenly switch to eating meat, their bodies would probably not like it.

    I believe it is the same for those who have tried to switch to vegetarianism and failed. If they and their ancestors were used to eating meat, upon introducing a vegetarian lifestyle, the body reacted. The mind wanted to, but the body rebelled. Perhaps the cause is in their genetic memories which dictates that something crucial to their survival is missing. Perhaps all it would take is a period of adjustment. And since adjustment takes time and commitment, many give up too soon, thinking that their bodies are simply not ready for this type of change. I imagine the reactions to getting sick are similar to those of withdrawal symptoms from a substance that the body is used to receiving on a regular basis. This is why I stated that sometimes the mind and the soul wish to take this leap and the body has not caught up.

    Of all the people I know who switched from eating meat to vegetarianism, most have done extremely well and are very happy with the change. But some have done very poorly even though they followed the same protocols as those who did well.

    I also know a number of people (children of 1960's parents) who were brought up on vegetarianism and when they became adults, they switched to eating meat. Some went back to vegetarianism because meat made them feel sick and some remained meat eaters because it made them feel better.

    Individuals have individual needs. I love my vegetarian friends as much as I love my omnivorous friends and when they tell me that they do well on some foods and poorly on other foods, I believe them. I don't do well on meat, but I do well on fish. I don't do well on legumes and grains, but I do well on fruits and vegetables. I don't do well on dairy, but I do well on eggs. I went on a raw vegan diet for 6 months and I did rather poorly on it. I had to give it up on account of very low energy and weight gain (probably from too much sugar from fruits and too much fat from nuts). Those are my individual needs so I follow what makes me feel best.
    Last edited by Daughter of Time; 28th March 2013 at 20:08.

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    Default Re: The Vegetarian Myth

    The important thing is to listen to ones body; what it needs to thrive.

    I don´t think it is healthy to allow the head to make decisions about what the body should eat based on an idea of what is "right" and "wrong".

    Most people, and I am one of them, really need to work on listening to their bodies. At this point in time my body thrives on raw vegetables, fruit, seeds and cooked meat and fish.
    So that´s what I´m eating.

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    Default Re: The Vegetarian Myth

    Just throwing this in the mix, plants can "bite back" in various ways, this article illustrates some. If you are interested in your health, look into fermentation and other ancient food preparation practices.


    Quote Living With Phytic Acid

    Written by Ramiel Nagel

    Friday, 26 March 2010 16:09




    Preparing Grains, Nuts, Seeds and Beans for Maximum Nutrition

    Phytic acid in grains, nuts, seeds and beans represents a serious problem in our diets. This problem exists because we have lost touch with our ancestral heritage of food preparation. Instead we listen to food gurus and ivory tower theorists who promote the consumption of raw and unprocessed “whole foods;” or, we eat a lot of high-phytate foods like commercial whole wheat bread and all-bran breakfast cereals. But raw is definitely not Nature’s way for grains, nuts, seeds and beans. . . and even some tubers, like yams; nor are quick cooking or rapid heat processes like extrusion.

    Phytic acid is the principal storage form of phosphorus in many plant tissues, especially the bran portion of grains and other seeds. It contains the mineral phosphorus tightly bound in a snowflake-like molecule. In humans and animals with one stomach, the phosphorus is not readily bioavailable. In addition to blocking phosphorus availability, the “arms” of the phytic acid molecule readily bind with other minerals, such as calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc, making them unavailable as well. In this form, the compound is referred to as phytate.

    Phytic acid not only grabs on to or chelates important minerals, but also inhibits enzymes that we need to digest our food, including pepsin,1 needed for the breakdown of proteins in the stomach, and amylase,2 needed for the breakdown of starch into sugar. Trypsin, needed for protein digestion in the small intestine, is also inhibited by phytates.3

    Through observation I have witnessed the powerful anti-nutritional effects of a diet high in phytate-rich grains on my family members, with many health problems as a result, including tooth decay, nutrient deficiencies, lack of appetite and digestive problems.

    The presence of phytic acid in so many enjoyable foods we regularly consume makes it imperative that we know how to prepare these foods to neutralize phytic acid content as much as possible, and also to consume them in the context of a diet containing factors that mitigate the harmful effects of phytic acid.
    Full article here PDF of article available at the link.
    Last edited by ThePythonicCow; 28th March 2013 at 22:37.

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    Default Re: The Vegetarian Myth

    Quote Posted by music (here)
    Just throwing this in the mix, plants can "bite back" in various ways, this article illustrates some. If you are interested in your health, look into fermentation and other ancient food preparation practices.


    Quote Living With Phytic Acid

    Written by Ramiel Nagel

    Friday, 26 March 2010 16:09




    Preparing Grains, Nuts, Seeds and Beans for Maximum Nutrition

    Phytic acid in grains, nuts, seeds and beans represents a serious problem in our diets.
    Full article here PDF of article available at the link.
    Aha - thanks!

    I had been munching raw cashews, and wondering why they sat a bit heavy in my gut.

    Oops.

    Time to look into soaking them.
    Last edited by ThePythonicCow; 28th March 2013 at 22:37.
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    Default Re: The Vegetarian Myth

    Thanks Music but that link doesn't work, so I've linked to it here. Interesting stuff. Looks like I need to get more into the sour dough method when baking my bread!

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    Default Re: The Vegetarian Myth

    Thanks Akasha. Sour dough is the only way to go! My little fella and I are just about to knead some loaves now - wholemeal spelt with a killer starter that I'd forgotten in the back of my fridge that smells like good wine! Quick sourdough recipe - at night: 5 cups flour, 1.5 cups starter, 4 cups lukewarm water, cover with muslin in a warm place. In the morning: replenish starter and refrigerate, add 1/2 cup oil, 1 tblsp salt, 5 - 6 cups flour. Kneading process is a lot less strenuous than with ordinary bread. Form into 2 loaves, rise for 2 hours, slit tops, spritz tops with water, cook for 20 min at 425 deg F, then spritz again, cook at 325 deg F for 50 min - 1 hour. Ask around friends to obtain a starter, or make your own. Bread recipe adapted from Tasajara Bread Book.

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by Paul (here)
    Quote Posted by music (here)
    Just throwing this in the mix, plants can "bite back" in various ways, this article illustrates some. If you are interested in your health, look into fermentation and other ancient food preparation practices.


    Quote Living With Phytic Acid

    Written by Ramiel Nagel

    Friday, 26 March 2010 16:09




    Preparing Grains, Nuts, Seeds and Beans for Maximum Nutrition

    Phytic acid in grains, nuts, seeds and beans represents a serious problem in our diets.
    Full article here PDF of article available at the link.
    Aha - thanks!

    I had been munching raw cashews, and wondering why they sat a bit heavy in my gut.

    Oops.

    Time to look into soaking them.
    Oats too. Put oats for next day in water overnight, with a pinch of salt. A very mild fermentation takes place that opens the grain for us.

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    Default Re: The Vegetarian Myth

    Quote Posted by Akasha (here)
    Thanks Music but that link doesn't work, so I've linked to it here.
    Thanks for noticing the broken link. I fixed it, using the URL you provided.
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    Default Re: The Vegetarian Myth

    Thank you Dynamo. You are a breath of fresh air and the book sounds great. There is only one way to bring back dry,desert like land to health and vitality again and that through animals. Land in the USA and anywhere else where animals have been removed to "protect" land has degragated more than where animals are farmed. Nature used to support vast herds of bison in America and their vital partner were the predators that preyed on them. This kept the herds mobbed for safety and also moving. No land was set stocked, the animals moved constantly.

    This argument between veggies and carnivores is just bollucks! If we don't reintroduce animals, mob grazed to these dry deserts the deserts will continue to increase. I don't care if people are meat eaters or vegetarian. Read up, research this topic! The natural world needs us to wise up! We have been sold a crock of ****! The world needs its animals for the health of its plants, soil and waterways. The evidence is out there. Research Holistic Management! It the hope of this world and I'm absolutely serious about this. There is plenty to see on the Internet on this subject. The Savory Institute would be a great place to investigate.

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    Default Re: The Vegetarian Myth

    Quote Posted by music (here)
    Quote Phytic acid in grains, nuts, seeds and beans represents a serious problem in our diets. This problem exists because we have lost touch with our ancestral heritage of food preparation. Instead we listen to food gurus and ivory tower theorists who promote the consumption of raw and unprocessed “whole foods;” or, we eat a lot of high-phytate foods like commercial whole wheat bread and all-bran breakfast cereals. But raw is definitely not Nature’s way for grains, nuts, seeds and beans. . . and even some tubers, like yams; nor are quick cooking or rapid heat processes like extrusion.
    Full article here PDF of article available at the link.
    Thank you Music,

    That is interesting. A couple of weeks ago I was eating a lot of nuts, but noticed I wasn´t feeling too good. Still learning about raw food. I must say I feel great not eating grains!
    Last edited by ThePythonicCow; 29th March 2013 at 11:49. Reason: fix quoting

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    Default Re: The Vegetarian Myth

    Veganism and vegetarianism is an extreme solution for an extreme problem. If the population were lowered (no, not culled) to a harmonius number, and not screwing this planet up, we´d probably be living in abundance, not making politics of food.
    This whole discussion is as mentioned before very unproductive and just creates more emotional drama. Why bother? Not to bash th OP, but before posting something consider what you are putting to birth. There is probably like a zillion threads on the internets on vegetarians vs carnivores, all infected with polarized thinking and emotional reactions.
    That aside I´d probably could contribute a lot to the discussion, being a vegetarian chef, but eating meat myself. Just drop the drama, it´s just food. Babies, children and young girls just don´t simply die because of vegetarian diet or lack of meat. They die because of erring parents or/ and in combination of disease. Just don´t buy the propagande- from either side. Keep it private, not polarized. Just like sex.
    Last edited by Metaphor; 29th March 2013 at 09:28.

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    Default Re: The Vegetarian Myth

    Quote The truth is also that life isn't possible without death, that no matter what you eat, someone has to die to feed you.
    The principle of life coming forth from death can be seen in every area of our existence. Out of death emerges life is a paradox that can be seen over and over again on every level of the physical and the spiritual. It is the story of the Phoenix retold in a myriad of ways. IMHO...Even the story of the death and resurrection of Christ is the same story of new life being birthed from the state of death - and so we see that this is true for as well, and it is all around us. What we eat is a choice - the process of death and life are not.
    ~ If nothing changes then nothing changes ~

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    Default Re: The Vegetarian Myth

    Raw nuts and seeds must be soaked in clean water to rid them of the unhealthy elements. Overnight is best, then the body can use them properly.
    The quantum field responds not to what we want; but to who we are being. Dr. Joe Dispenza

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    Default Re: The Vegetarian Myth

    Quote Posted by Metaphor (here)
    This whole discussion is as mentioned before very unproductive and just creates more emotional drama. Why bother? Not to bash th OP, but before posting something consider what you are putting to birth. There is probably like a zillion threads on the internets on vegetarians vs carnivores, all infected with polarized thinking and emotional reactions.
    I've been getting a lot of good insight and helpful information from this thread.

    Personally, even though conflict can make people feel uncomfortable, I think vigorous discussion and informed disagreement is an awesome thing. It has the potential to open minds and change behavior.

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by conk (here)
    Raw nuts and seeds must be soaked in clean water to rid them of the unhealthy elements. Overnight is best, then the body can use them properly.
    Thanks!! I read the article on the Weston Price website but it was extremely long and involved.

    "Soak raw nuts and seeds overnight" is good simple advice that is easy to follow.

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