The Vegetarian Myth

[Akasha]

Posted by SGT-BONES (here)
Can I speak for the slaughtered animals?

No, of course not... they each have their own reasons for choosing to experience the existence they had here and the final outcomes for their own physical vessels.

....within the framework of your belief system. I have no such belief system. I do however try to be driven by love at all times. I would at this stage interject that love is not a belief but rather something we have, I hope, all felt at one time or another as a palpable, tangible energy flowing within us.

Posted by SGT-BONES (here)
This place is ALL about the experience... good, bad, ugly, indifferent, and everything in between.

True, I agree, but those experiences should all culminate in raising consciousness towards the frequency of love otherwise we aren't learning the lessons are we?

Posted by SGT-BONES (here)
The way I see it, it's all agreed to before we even get here, so it's ALL good... even the not so pleasant stuff.

Your belief in predestination is clearly soothing you for now. I, however, having no such beliefs must take direct responsibility for all decisions within my power to make. My experience so far is such that when my decisions are motivated by love, the outcomes are more desirable all round. This obviously extends to my diet.

Posted by SGT-BONES (here)
The whole point of it is that we get to explore and experience the entire spectrum of possibilities and outcomes.

Again you are buying into a concept which may or may not be true. Let's say it is true: if so, haven't we experienced enough of the suffering end of the spectrum?

Posted by SGT-BONES (here)
Often we have to enlist the help of others so as to ensure the desired experience or set of experiences is created for us.... hence the need for soul contracts/agreements.

Do I have any evidence for the existence of soul contracts?

Well, yes, but only the kind that comes from direct personal knowledge/experience of past lives.... which cannot be "proven" to others via words on a screen.

But I guess that was your point

How can you objectively discern between direct personal knowledge/experience of past lives and your imagination? I guess you are saying that you just can and that's ok. Who am I to dispute such things?

(got to go but will be back asap)

edit: I should add to the last paragraph the possibility of your past lives experiences being the result of tapping into the akashic record (if it exists) and encountering other people's experiences.

[Agape]

Posted by Akasha (here)

Posted by Lettherebelight (here)
“Mam sa khadatiti mamsah” … ie “whatever I am doing to you, you can do to me in my next life"

.....if reincarnation is true then maybe.....but if not.....then what?

I'll grant you that it's certainly a very convenient concept for those wishing to justify blood sacrifice... which I think we can all agree is, at best, devoid of all logic.

Reincarnation like many other facets of life experience is not enough to explain everything and one quote taken out of context of broader perspective , whether it's Vedic or Greek can not do that ,
when we are at quotes , I would rather stick to ''Be food your medicine and your medicine is your food'' .

If we were perfectly healthy .. in the 'higher spiritual ' and biological sense , we would not have to put almost anything to our mouth to survive . Breathing would sort it out, absorbing energy from the environment , through our skin , some people claim to be able to do that but in current stage of earthly evolution the ability is reduced to minimum.
We still all do that . I find actually quite surprising how many of the modern pharmaceutical ( and cosmetic ) companies are re-discovering the fact that we are able to absorb nutritients , vitamins, and whatever miraculous elements through our skin, painlessly .

The same goes for absorbing free radicals from environment , various pollutants, plant pollens, fatty droplets, no matter the compound you name,
the fastest entry they make to our bodies is we breathe them and absorb them through our skin .

When generations of our grandmothers rubbed animal fat to treat back pains for example, did it provide treatment or nutrition to the skin cells and muscles underneath ?

Aren't those cosmetic companies selling 'DNA creams' for $$$ selling ages old recipes transferred to safe tubes .


Many narrow minded concepts will keep failing to explain everything during this short and little human life time whilst we see all these 'very gifted humans' trying to answer all question, right here and right now .
Or.. we can't survive , they claim .

The one law that will continue to explain a lot though and what is the true base of the concept of Karma , is the law of cause and effect .

It's said that if one understands the causality of existence .. and what they call 'dependent arising' in Buddhism which is another subtle name for the same,
and is very close to what Einstein described in terms of general and special relativity ,
one can understand about everything ( if he applies appropriate effort ).

Of course, physical laws sometimes look like a novum to certain class of 'spiritualists' but there, you need to brush your intellect and put most of your inherited convictions aside ,
to decipher what is that truly going on around us, inside us, and what will be its most logical consequencies , counting in as many causes as possible.

In fact, more causes you can count in , in effect , your understanding of what we vaguely perceive as presence deepens .

Whatever we experience now is result of some past causes, on very microscopic level as well.
Yes we are here as result of our intention to be 'here' and taste the flavour of this reality and contribute to it on our accord, learn about it and use that understanding for further improvement .

I think that vaguely covers the term 'evolution' for me , which in case of higher intelligence such as the one enclosed in human brains, entails the very complicated factor of free will .
We are free to put ourselves through certain trials that we are aware of not being absolutely safe or 'right' , with hope and intent of achieving some form of superior understanding .

This applies and is more relevant to process of individualisation , something that others can not usually and really observe in short time ,
and which process gains true validity over generation leaps .

So also, the way how we proceed our biological causality and it's already existing pre-determination differs, otherwise we would have to , literally experience all the murders that our ancestors once caused , and all results of their ignorant decisions etc.

The fact that our biological intelligence has some level of freedom , and FREEDOM from the chain of certain kind of causes and consequences was the main target of my first post in this thread ,
means that though we experience ourselves as earth-bound and limited creatures in many terms, due to many physical laws in game ,
there's portion of our free will that is allowed to alter some of our biological functions on very complex level .

I'm not saying it's true for everyone because some won't be able to understand . But for lets say, big percentage of human populace,
the decision has to take place in their own minds , to whom they want to grow up.



Being caught in a closed system, food chain, or whatever they call Samsara ..which itself refers to Sama= sameness and Sara= Essence ,
means we are unwillingly or otherwise repeating the same process followed by our predecessors, repeating what we were taught is safe to do ,

and using our free will and intellect but very little .




PS . Sorry for the overly long post .

[DNA]

Posted by Agape (here)
If we were perfectly healthy .. in the 'higher spiritual ' and biological sense , we would not have to put almost anything to our mouth to survive . Breathing would sort it out, absorbing energy from the environment , through our skin , some people claim to be able to do that but in current stage of earthly evolution the ability is reduced to minimum.

Can I confide an ugly secret before I start?
Everytime I hear someone bring this up I get irrationally mad.
This isn't a statement to ask for a free pass to be rude, it is just an admission is all.
I think it is due to a connection in the belief that vegetarians have in that they feel a sense of superiority and this kind of validates that.

In the spirit and pursuit of mutual understanding and advancement, is their any proof to the whole idea of not eating and living off of breathing?
Is my anger a defense mechanism wanting to defend my carniverous lifestyle? Probably.
Just spitballing here.

[Agape]

Posted by DNA (here)
Can I confide an ugly secret before I start?
Everytime I hear someone bring this up I get irrationally mad.
This isn't a statement to ask for a free pass to be rude, it is just an admission is all.
I think it is due to a connection in the belief that vegetarians have in that they feel a sense of superiority and this kind of validates that.

In the spirit and pursuit of mutual understanding and advancement, is their any proof to the whole idea of not eating and living off of breathing?
Is my anger a defense mechanism wanting to defend my carniverous lifestyle? Probably.
Just spitballing here.

There is none . The notion of superiority and inferiority is as irrational as only man can be , why, because we are none born complete, adult and enlightened .

We come here and learn , take lessons from others, our own selves and every form and moment of life .

There is uniqueness of needs and abilities and we are not drones neither photocopies of one another . We all share some common ethical and philosophical grounds , no matter how basic or complicated you feel about it .

There would be very little sense in sharing a good idea or an advice on healthy life style unless you can appreciate value of the idea by your own experience .

I do not come to argue here , that would be utter waste of time from my perspective .

[ROMANWKT]

If any of you have the courage and interest to know the truth, even for the vegans who sometime doubt that they are doing right, and to the meat eaters that think that they are doing nothing wrong and think they are on a spiritual path, think again, know and understand that you again had been lied to, all of humanity had been lied to, and yes there are people who had been sensitive to the truth, you may find the truth shocking, if you really want to live in ignorance then don't bother, but you meat eaters are 10000000000% wrong.

Show your conviction and listen to these three mp3s

This will be the last matter on the war of meat or veg TRUST ME.


You will learn a lot and understand a lot, I cant tell you how important it is to humanity, this knowledge, as its one of the keys to your freedom on earth.


Please go to www.whatonearthishappening.com

Go to the podcast and listen and watch the pictures as he addresses the issues
OR LISTEN HERE podcast 121, 122, 123.

http://www.whatonearthishappening.co.../WOEIH-121.mp3

http://www.whatonearthishappening.co.../WOEIH-122.mp3

http://www.whatonearthishappening.co.../WOEIH-123.mp3

PS start 121 @20 minutes and start 122@20 minutes
warmest regards to all

roman









PRESS PICS TO EXPAND

[norman]

I stumbled over this podcast interview with Lierre Keith, author of "The Vegetarian Myth", and found her point about agricultural practices in the last 10,000 years interesting and convincing.

http://app.stitcher.com/browse/feed/10279/details

If this link doesn't work for you ( I'm listening to it via my own radio panel at stitcher ), let me know and I'll grab it and reupload it somewhere else.


OK, here it is at my box account:

https://app.box.com/s/ke2vzalvhb1rdn85p63binhxc3mk9bfb

[Patient]

Great thread with great posts! I have read throughout the first 3 pages and I will come back when I have more time. I believe that this is a very important topic and for more reasons than is first obvious. We make our choice and then we take a stand - that often results in creating an opposing side that does the same and often times both sides push at the other to make their point - and often times both points are valid - then we see that often times we can not easily accept a view point that is opposite from our own and we are unsettled by it. When we can get past this point we will have evolved.

Sorry if I digressed, but this thought came to my mind and I felt that it should be here. As a vegetarian I have experienced many of the same situations that came up in this thread. Meat eaters were quick to feel the need to explain themselves or cut me down for their own feelings - I have never been a "preaching" vegetarian. If I am asked questions I will answer. Simple. I have also been told off by vegans for my diet. This is a big part of why i feel this topic is important because it seems to me that no one has it figured out yet.

...and I wonder how long it will take for us to get it right, or even if we ever will. A large reason that I became vegetarian is because my body did not seem to agree to meat products any longer. But why I wondered? I did some research and I found that many relatives died from similar cancers and they all lived similar lives styles - similar diets. When I found that the wheat and grains (and all of the other things that they put into the animals) could very well be causing those who ate the animals problems, my appettite was altered. Since becoming a vegetarian, my body feels much healthier. But now, I worry about the grains and other things they are putting in and on the products I eat. Round and round I go, hoping that some day we will get it right. In the meantime, i hope my body can handle the changes that society is dishing us!

[Ewan]

Posted by norman (here)
I stumbled over this podcast interview with Lierre Keith, author of "The Vegetarian Myth", and found her point about agricultural practices in the last 10,000 years interesting and convincing.

http://app.stitcher.com/browse/feed/10279/details

If this link doesn't work for you ( I'm listening to it via my own radio panel at stitcher ), let me know and I'll grab it and reupload it somewhere else.

I elected to use Stitcher as guest but the file would not play, if you could share an .mp3 elsewhere that would be great.

[Akasha]

Posted by Patient (here)
Great thread with great posts! I have read throughout the first 3 pages and I will come back when I have more time. I believe that this is a very important topic and for more reasons than is first obvious. We make our choice and then we take a stand - that often results in creating an opposing side that does the same and often times both sides push at the other to make their point - and often times both points are valid - then we see that often times we can not easily accept a view point that is opposite from our own and we are unsettled by it. When we can get past this point we will have evolved.

Sorry if I digressed, but this thought came to my mind and I felt that it should be here. As a vegetarian I have experienced many of the same situations that came up in this thread. Meat eaters were quick to feel the need to explain themselves or cut me down for their own feelings - I have never been a "preaching" vegetarian. If I am asked questions I will answer. Simple. I have also been told off by vegans for my diet. This is a big part of why i feel this topic is important because it seems to me that no one has it figured out yet.

...and I wonder how long it will take for us to get it right, or even if we ever will. A large reason that I became vegetarian is because my body did not seem to agree to meat products any longer. But why I wondered? I did some research and I found that many relatives died from similar cancers and they all lived similar lives styles - similar diets. When I found that the wheat and grains (and all of the other things that they put into the animals) could very well be causing those who ate the animals problems, my appettite was altered. Since becoming a vegetarian, my body feels much healthier. But now, I worry about the grains and other things they are putting in and on the products I eat. Round and round I go, hoping that some day we will get it right. In the meantime, i hope my body can handle the changes that society is dishing us!

Hi Patient.

Do you remember the reasons certain vegans told you off? I was vegetarian for over a decade before becoming vegan so I was in the same boat as you for quite some time and certainly don't want to appear as if I’m telling you off also.
As I understand it, and what led me to go vegan, the argument against (essentially) dairy and eggs is primarily an ethical one. The dietary argument might still be open to debate in the eyes of some but that’s not my primary concern, although it appears weaker and weaker for these animal products as more data come in.

So back to the ethical argument. It basically goes like this: beef cattle are not subject to the misery of being annually raped throughout their productive lifespan, hooked up to machines two or three times a day once they start lactating, having their offspring taken from them after a matter of hours or days of giving birth and then finally, after all that suffering, taken to slaughter - the typical life of a dairy cow, a life which normally lasts for 3-5 years but has the biological potential to last for over 20.

The ethical argument also extends to the life of the calf taken away from its mother. Aside from the trauma of such an action, the calf will, if it is female, join the cycle of misery which its mother is subject too, and if it is male, assuming it isn't executed immediately, it will be absorbed into the veal industry (a tremendously cruel by-product of the dairy industry) to be taken to slaughter some 19 or 20 weeks later.

There is also the issue of mastitis, or infection of the udder, a systemic problem within the industry and the main reason dairy cattle are continually medicated with antibiotics, thus increasingly leading to ineffectiveness of these drugs on the human population.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Y43YAYHJ2Ng

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=q0ty7KiFJlI

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=6YDIS5gg4SA

The ethical argument against eggs is different but one can recognise the similarity. Regardless of how the chickens are accommodated, whether it be free-range organic or caged, the overwhelming majority of male chicks end up in a mincing / macerating machine or gas chamber within hours of hatching. Their presence does not fit the business model of the modern egg industry save for a handful which may be retained for breeding purposes.

It should also be highlighted that, just like dairy cattle, chickens end up in the slaughterhouse once their productivity drops below a certain threshold - typically after 1 or 2 years.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=HN0g13kMk6s

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=I6i2zg-dkOs

[MorningFox]

The problem isn't necessarily that animals have to die for people to eat meat, it's how they are treated when they are alive.

Many intelligent vegetarians and vegans abstain from eating meat and dairy in protest of the horrific way in which animals are abused and tortured. Whether they'd be healthier or not if they ate meat is not the issue, neither is whether it's ok for animals to die to sustain us. The god-awful practices carried out in these industries must stop at all costs if we are to live with ourselves as compassionate human beings.

[norman]

Posted by Ewan (here)

Posted by norman (here)
I stumbled over this podcast interview with Lierre Keith, author of "The Vegetarian Myth", and found her point about agricultural practices in the last 10,000 years interesting and convincing.

http://app.stitcher.com/browse/feed/10279/details

If this link doesn't work for you ( I'm listening to it via my own radio panel at stitcher ), let me know and I'll grab it and reupload it somewhere else.

I elected to use Stitcher as guest but the file would not play, if you could share an .mp3 elsewhere that would be great.

Here it is, I trimmed a bit off the beginning to get straight to the interview:

https://app.box.com/s/ke2vzalvhb1rdn85p63binhxc3mk9bfb

[Patient]

Posted by Akasha (here)

Posted by Patient (here)
Great thread with great posts! I have read throughout the first 3 pages and I will come back when I have more time. I believe that this is a very important topic and for more reasons than is first obvious. We make our choice and then we take a stand - that often results in creating an opposing side that does the same and often times both sides push at the other to make their point - and often times both points are valid - then we see that often times we can not easily accept a view point that is opposite from our own and we are unsettled by it. When we can get past this point we will have evolved.

Sorry if I digressed, but this thought came to my mind and I felt that it should be here. As a vegetarian I have experienced many of the same situations that came up in this thread. Meat eaters were quick to feel the need to explain themselves or cut me down for their own feelings - I have never been a "preaching" vegetarian. If I am asked questions I will answer. Simple. I have also been told off by vegans for my diet. This is a big part of why i feel this topic is important because it seems to me that no one has it figured out yet.

...and I wonder how long it will take for us to get it right, or even if we ever will. A large reason that I became vegetarian is because my body did not seem to agree to meat products any longer. But why I wondered? I did some research and I found that many relatives died from similar cancers and they all lived similar lives styles - similar diets. When I found that the wheat and grains (and all of the other things that they put into the animals) could very well be causing those who ate the animals problems, my appettite was altered. Since becoming a vegetarian, my body feels much healthier. But now, I worry about the grains and other things they are putting in and on the products I eat. Round and round I go, hoping that some day we will get it right. In the meantime, i hope my body can handle the changes that society is dishing us!

Hi Patient.

Do you remember the reasons certain vegans told you off? I was vegetarian for over a decade before becoming vegan so I was in the same boat as you for quite some time and certainly don't want to appear as if I’m telling you off also.
As I understand it, and what led me to go vegan, the argument against (essentially) dairy and eggs is primarily an ethical one. The dietary argument might still be open to debate in the eyes of some but that’s not my primary concern, although it appears weaker and weaker for these animal products as more data come in.

So back to the ethical argument. It basically goes like this: beef cattle are not subject to the misery of being annually raped throughout their productive lifespan, hooked up to machines two or three times a day once they start lactating, having their offspring taken from them after a matter of hours or days of giving birth and then finally, after all that suffering, taken to slaughter - the typical life of a dairy cow, a life which normally lasts for 3-5 years but has the biological potential to last for over 20.

The ethical argument also extends to the life of the calf taken away from its mother. Aside from the trauma of such an action, the calf will, if it is female, join the cycle of misery which its mother is subject too, and if it is male, assuming it isn't executed immediately, it will be absorbed into the veal industry (a tremendously cruel by-product of the dairy industry) to be taken to slaughter some 19 or 20 weeks later.

There is also the issue of mastitis, or infection of the udder, a systemic problem within the industry and the main reason dairy cattle are continually medicated with antibiotics, thus increasingly leading to ineffectiveness of these drugs on the human population.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Y43YAYHJ2Ng

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=q0ty7KiFJlI

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=6YDIS5gg4SA

The ethical argument against eggs is different but one can recognise the similarity. Regardless of how the chickens are accommodated, whether it be free-range organic or caged, the overwhelming majority of male chicks end up in a mincing / macerating machine or gas chamber within hours of hatching. Their presence does not fit the business model of the modern egg industry save for a handful which may be retained for breeding purposes.

It should also be highlighted that, just like dairy cattle, chickens end up in the slaughterhouse once their productivity drops below a certain threshold - typically after 1 or 2 years.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=HN0g13kMk6s

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=I6i2zg-dkOs

Hi Akasha, I am aware of how the animals are treated. It is very sad and unnecessary. I do my best being vegetarian and I suppose an underlying point that I am making (now that I am responding to your post) is that I should not have to apologize for not being vegan. Essentially, a person should not be made to feel guilty because they can not be as good as another person based on that person's perspective ( I am tired right now and only awake as i am trying to make sure my kids go to sleep, so I hope my point is coming across correctly.)

Some things (as you asked) are by products from the industry - for example if i am a vegetarian, why do I have leather seats? Now that one is easy and obvious to see, but another point is that there are so many products that use by products from animals that unless you are very educated on the subject you will never know.

This brings me to my original point from my post - will we ever get it right.(do not confuse this statement with the idea that we shouldn't try very hard to get it right). Half of my family is vegan and the cost of products is expensive. Also, where I live, much of the vegetarian products that my family loved has disappeared from the market making meal making to please a large variety of tastes sometimes very difficult. Pursuing this life choice is a lot of effort - and as most vegans and vegetarians would agree - it shouldn't be.

Will we ever et it right. How many animals suffer because farm fields are used for wheat, veggies and fruit? If you start educating your children in all these things, what is left for your child to eat?

So as I said earlier - this is a very important topic. And just to add; I do not recall who said this, but it went something like this "If you can not take your children and show them where there food comes from and how it is prepared, them maybe you know the right answer already. I am very comfortable showing my kids how to pick apples."

[Akasha]

The Vegan Atheist comments on an interview between Lierre and Steven Crowder:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=OWNqMZnJeIw

[Akasha]

Mic. the Vegan puts Lierre and her straw-men to bed:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=oMuxgAbHgJA

[Miller]

Oxalate Dumping: The WORST Food That Feeds Oxalates (Eat This Instead)

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=5G3XXPkdPqI

(52:34)
Came across this really interesting interview today. Who knew, for instance, that most vegetables have a built-in toxic deterrent (oxalic acid) to protect themselves from marauders which can cause many problems including kidney stones. And this is found in a range of "healthy" vegetables.

The comments under the video on YT are also compelling.

Here's a link to a website which gives information on oxalates and which foods are best eaten in small qualities or avoided altogether.
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition...-eat-and-avoid

[Pam]

Posted by Miller (here)
Oxalate Dumping: The WORST Food That Feeds Oxalates (Eat This Instead)

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=5G3XXPkdPqI

(52:34)
Came across this really interesting interview today. Who knew, for instance, that most vegetables have a built-in toxic deterrent (oxalic acid) to protect themselves from marauders which can cause many problems including kidney stones. And this is found in a range of "healthy" vegetables.

The comments under the video on YT are also compelling.

Here's a link to a website which gives information on oxalates and which foods are best eaten in small qualities or avoided altogether.
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition...-eat-and-avoid

As a vegetarian I have learned the lesson oxalates the hard way. I grow my own veggies and for a long time I was blending a bunch of greens, primarily spinach, which is highly nutritious but also is loaded with oxalates. So is rhubarb, which I grow and really love. It turned out that I was unknowingly consuming huge amounts of oxalates and fortunately they didn't end up creating kidney stones but they were accumulating in my feet and legs. It was very painful and it also binds with other minerals and creates cramping. I developed a rash all over my body as the body was trying to rid itself of the oxalate crystals. I was so desperate I went to a doctor, they, unsurprisingly had no idea what was wrong with me and prescribed gapapentin, which might cover the symptoms. I did not use them.

I finally figured it out and the process of getting rid of the excess oxalates is very long. I never eat spinach, rhubarb, rarely eat almonds as these are all high in oxalates. It can be very, very painful and destructive. I still am a vegetarian but I just avoid the big offenders and indulge in those with not as many oxalates far less.

I can testify that those little shards can cause a huge amount of pain and distress so indulging in the high oxylate foods on a regular basis is not a good idea.

[Brigantia]

Thanks Miller and Pam, I had never heard of oxalates. I'm vegetarian and eat spinach occasionally and a few almonds every day (that's been for many years) and have not had any problems. I've just had a read of the article and not many of the foods that I eat regularly are on there though, I also cook spinach. As with all diets, moderation is key.

Going back to the theme of this thread, a friend who has many clients with a biofeedback machine told me that a diet with no fish oils can affect memory, even if you take vegan omega oils. I was thinking it was ageing that was making me forgetful at times, so I did try a fish oil supplement and had a noticeable difference in my memory function as a result.

[Miller]

Me neither Brigantia. In fact before watching that video I would've been happy to eat spinach every day and think I was eating healthily. But most vegetables contain a degree of oxalates and so it's a question of finding the lowest ones. I was surprised to see celery on the list, especially as it's a natural diuretic.

One of the comments under the video on YT said something to the effect that we're finding out nearly everything we eat can kill us , which isn't really funny but all part of the cycle, and I guess that when we partake of life's rich banquet, we're bound to devour the odd crap sandwich now and then :/. Not eating a wide variety of food brings its own risks in the form of low vitamins, minerals and a poor immune system, so it all comes down to choices in the end, and moderation of course; Now where's that bar of chocolate . . . .

[Pam]

Posted by Miller (here)
Me neither Brigantia. In fact before watching that video I would've been happy to eat spinach every day and think I was eating healthily. But most vegetables contain a degree of oxalates and so it's a question of finding the lowest ones. I was surprised to see celery on the list, especially as it's a natural diuretic.

One of the comments under the video on YT said something to the effect that we're finding out nearly everything we eat can kill us , which isn't really funny but all part of the cycle, and I guess that when we partake of life's rich banquet, we're bound to devour the odd crap sandwich now and then :/. Not eating a wide variety of food brings its own risks in the form of low vitamins, minerals and a poor immune system, so it all comes down to choices in the end, and moderation of course; Now where's that bar of chocolate . . . .

I do want to point out that I was eating huge amounts of spinach. I grew a large amount and I was using blending the spinach down so I was able to ingest a ridiculous amount in each smoothie and I had a bumper crop (there is no such thing as moderation in my book, apparently!!) I was also eating a large amount of almonds. So I don't want to instill fear, I just happened to be indulging in very high amounts of foods with high oxalate content nutritious but oxalate laden, unknowingly. I was also eating carrots which are fairly high as well. All of them nutritious and wonderful but the secret is balance and awareness.

The sad thing is these veggies are very nutritious, I had never had noticeable symptoms till I did this smoothy thing with tons of spinach on a daily basis.

The other thing if you find yourself having symptoms of high oxalate content it is not good to just stop eating oxalates abruptly. The body will start dumping them and really create havoc. The goal is to cut down and slowly allow the body to remove the excess amount. What I did was stop the spinach and rhubarb totally, but I still had lower amounts of oxalates as the dumping is absolutely awful and dangerous. If I did start dumping, I would just eat something like half a carrot and that would stop the dumping process.

The amazing body is always working to bring back balance. Brigantia, I bet you are just fine eating a few almonds a day. I believe nuts are wonderful foods. I eat walnuts and pumpkin seeds and sometimes pecans in moderation for their health benefits.

I really, really lucked out in not creating kidney issues. An extremely low oxalate diet for a vegetarian/vegan is pretty challenging, at least that is my feeling on it if you want to eat healthy food. So moderation is key and then more diligence if I have any symptoms.

Really great topic, I feel so fortunate that I figured it out. I probably would have increased them (the high oxalate foods) in my diet feeling I needed to improve it more and if my doctor had her way I would be on lifelong pills to try to hide the symptoms of some "unknown" disorder. Since green spinach smoothies are so popular I bet there are a bunch of people that had my symptoms and don't know what the heck is "wrong" with them and are being medicated.

It pays to be your own advocate when it comes to your health, or if you have a reliable friend or family member to help that is great too. We simply can't just blindly rely on the medical system, this is coming from someone who was a nurse for years.

Having said all that, isn't nature incredible the way each species has a mechanism of protection and preservation? The meek spinach plants would probably be extinct without the oxalates. I do miss spinach and carrots as well, Romaine lettuce is fine to eat and some forms of Kale are lower in oxalates.